Guest guest Posted July 12, 2002 Report Share Posted July 12, 2002 Dear Dhira Krishna Hare Krsna! you have quoted me "Please read some of Cremo's articles in which he explains how and why the Yugas are cyclic and not linear like you think." you <<If you mean Michael Cremo from the "Forbidden Archeology", I just had a talk with him, since he is giving a seminar on Science and Krsna Consciousness here in our Radhadesh temple.>> me Amazing, nothing happens by chance, yes i was referring to him. I felt that he was the person that could explain to you, better than I, about the cyclic time. By the way i have heard that the Radhadesh temple is beautiful but i had not yet the opportunity to visit, perhaps later i will. you << He recalls having written some article like that, >> me Yes he did write a nice and convincing article about it, i have a copy of it somewhere in my files. you <<however he referred me rather to Sadaputa Prabhu regarding the chakras of 120 years, which deal with Jup-Sat conjunctions.>> me Sadaputa Prabhu is another great writer. It is new to me that the chakras deal with the Jup-Sat conjunctions. Could you please elaborate a bit more on this. you <<What is actually your understanding of the difference between the two, cyclical or linear. I understand linear means it has a beginning and an end, and in between everything goes in a straight line. Then the cyclical point of view would be that there is a start, a middle and an end, after which there is another beginning and so on. >> me My understanding of time is just like you have described it. you <<What would then be the difference with a series of linear creations after each other?>> me I would think that the difference is only relative to the viewer. It would depend on the appreciation according to his frame of thought. you <<Or do you mean that a basic chakra of 120 years will be different in one Yuga compared to another?>> me In my opinion, here we are entering a relative concept. The great sages have given us a concept of time according to our understanding. We have to follow their guidlines, which are more perfect than our present materialistic education. Our soul has been born in a body that has to grow within an illusory structure of thought, therefore we are likely to be mislead or cheated from the real concept. We are supposed to cross the limitations of maya (illusion) in order to grasp reality, and therefore we need to follow the guidelines of liberated thinkers. In the Srimad Bhagavatam we read that due to the elasticity of time, one yuga overlapped the previous yuga, and therefore one yuga appeared first rather than later. What we should do in cases like that? In my opinion, we should follow the guidelines from liberated souls. you << Do the planets (and time) move faster in one yuga than the other? >> me I would say so, because time is only relative to matter, and matter is only temporary and not absolute. Therefore, the temporary is likley to have many transformations including the speed of the planets and time. you <<Could be, in case the time moves gradually faster, then at the end of this Kali Yuga, chakras will be even smaller, and indeed, like the Bhagavatam says that life span of the human beings will be reduced to about 30-40 years maximum. >> me Time is relative, what we think to be an eternity is only relative because it belongs to this transitory creation. Lord Brahma, the architect of this particular universe lives for 100 years in Satyaloka, which is the plane above in this universe, or like the pentahouse of this universe, but below that, there is earth. 100 years of Brahmna are equivalent to 311,000,040,000,000 years on earth or 12,000,000 ayanamsas. But in the land of Krishna, in the spiritual plane, 100 years of Brahma are about 1/5 of a second. you <<What adjustments will have to be made to Vimshottari dasha system at that time, when purna ayus will be lets say 36 instead of the 120 nowadays?>> me We have learn that Srila Vyasadeva, the compiler of the Vedas some 5,000 years ago, is now meditating somewhere in the Himalayas in how to compile the Vedas for the inhabitants of Satya Yuga, due to appear in some 427,000 years from now. Therefore, i suppose that the Vimshottari system of 120 years is relative to our present, and as the need arises we are likely to see the neccessary adjustments. The Vedic system is always dynamic and organic, never stagnant or chaotic. Great demigods are always supervising that fate always moves freely. Although the Srimad Bhagavatam mentions that longevity will drop to 36 years at the end of this Kali yuga, it will be in too many years from now, and we should not be concern about it. It is likely that we will not be around by then. If we are still around, i am sure that we will be given the proper tables to evaluate time accordingly, or perhaps by then, we as astrologers will calculate them. Many changes happen in the eternity of time, and we should adjust to those changes. you <<>Srila Prabhupada has elaborated in the purport of his Bhagavad Gita As It >Is, Chapter 4, text 1 > >"At the present moment we have just passed through five thousand years of >the Kali-yuga, which lasts 432,000 years. Before this there was >Dvapara-yuga (800,000 years), and before that there was Treta-yuga > (1,200,000 years). The discussion here is not about the length of the Yugas, I do accept what Prabhupada and other gurus say about this. There are however smaller cycles within the Yugas, and my doubt was whether they are aroha-avaroha, rising-descending, but my doubt has been cleared and it is indeed cyclical, meaning after each kali-chakra a new krta- or satya-chakra starts.>> me Good. you <<As for Prabhupada mentioning that we have now gone through five thousand years of the Kali-Yuga, we must know that Prabhupada was neither an astrologer nor astronomer, so he must have relied on what commonly has been accepted.>> me Regarding Prabhupada "was neither an astrologer nor astronomer", i would like to clarify this point. In my opinion, we shoud first define what is an astrologer or astronomer. In astrology we have a shade of astrologers. From the beginner to the master, we have a variety of astrologers. Discarding those that only want a free astrological reading or a "tell me only nice things about me, preferably what i want to hear as the supreme controller of my life", we have the serious student of astrology. I know many people that although do not have the time to study astrology, they have the basic knowledge about how astrology works. With that basic knowledge, they are able to ask relevant questions or to know what astrologers talk about. Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada said that Bhaktissidhanta Sarasvati, his Guru Maharaha was "the greatest of the last astrologers". We know that Bhaktissidhanta Sarasvati was a very good astrologer but left his astrological studies because he devoted his time to become a full time preacher of Krishna Consciousness. Around the time when Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada was associating with his god-brothers, jyotish was one of the Vedic sciences to talk about, and therefore, they all knew their own Vedic horoscope and the basic of jyotish. With the information of that background, i will say that Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada was also a jyotish, but he left his studies of jyotish following the steps of his Guru Maharaja. Although jyotish is a part of the karma-kandha section of the Vedas, it is very useful in our survival of this material plane. Just like we learn the street code to survive, jyotish also has the codes for us to survive on this material plane. We all learn very quick that the read light is to stop, and the green light is to go ahead. Whitout that basic street knlowledge, we would not survive here for long. Similarly, jyotish has some basic rules that help us to survive here. Lets have the example of Brihaspati Barbela. Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada used to mention a lot about it and he used to follow that. In fact Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada's god-brother, Srila Sridhar Maharaja, told us many times not to travel or do business during Jupiter Barbela, which is the time before sunset on Thursdays. One day a devotee asked Srila Sridhar Maharaja, which day of the week was the most auspicious, and he replied that Thursdays and Fridays are ruled by the most auspicious planets, Jupiter and Friday respectively, but due to Jupiter Barbela, which is a very inauspicious time, Fridays are the most auspicious of all the week days. We know very well that Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada did not like to travel on Thursdays. But we were very young at that time to ask him deep questions about it. And he did not want us at that time, to deviate our attention from Krishna Consciousness. Therefore, regarding your idea that Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada was not a jyotish, i have to disagree, he knew well jyotish but he was more dedicated to his preaching mission in the last years of his life. Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada knew more about jyotish than some of his disciples want to think he did not know. you <<Furthermore, we see how he even rounds off the duration of Yugas, so we can not use this as a proof for stating that the Kali Yuga started about five thousand years ago only. It may as well have been six thousand.>> me I do not think that it is relevant to give the exact years of the yugas. When you are preaching you can see that most of the people would not listen about the amount of time of the yugas, therefore i do not see the point in wasting time. You can do the experiment, you do not know by heart the exact lenght of the yugas, but if you have a paper and pen, the lenght can be calculated easily, but for what reason?. Think about it and you will see the point. Regarding the beginning of Kali Yuga is also not relevant. It help us to have a point of reference, but what we profit from it? Great jyotishis have done some calculations and came with those dates, but really, in the relativity of time, it does not matter, there are other more important things to consider thatn that. you have quoted me "And by the way, the alternative news claim that some Russians have found some stones where a 3 dimensional map of the earth has been printed on it, and the age of those stones has been calculated to be some 120 million years old, that means that whoever did those maps had a fresh knowledge given by Manu." you <<That's interesting, please post a reference where we can find more info on this.>> me Yes, i will. I have the article somewhere in my files. you << Michael Cremo mentioned in his seminar here that he found human made objects which date back to 2 billion years ago, in other words at the start of the present day of Lord Brahma>> me That is right, you can find more about it from his web site. you have quoted me "Achyuta Dasa is a direct disciple of Lord Chaitanya in the 16 century, and he started a branch of Vedic astrology, following the oral and writing lessons of previous great masters like Parasara and Manu. And Sanjay Rath is a direct disciple of the Vedic astrology school initiated by Achyuta Dasa." you <<So what is his idea about the aging of Kali Yuga and his explanation how we are now starting a new chakra of Satya?>> me I do not know about that because i am not as member of his school. Although i may not agree with some of Sanjay's concepts, like his belief that the 5th house is the house of the future, when i believe that it is the house to see the past, my intuition tells me that regarding the beginning of the chakra of Satya in 2000, it is correct. I believe that here Sanjay has done his maths right. you <<Using the cyclical idea of chakras of 1200 years, were there any gaps in between, possible dissolutions? Otherwise how do we explain that n x 1200 years doesn't match with the accepted date of 3102 BC? Are there any references like that in history?>> me As far as i know there is not dissolutions like the ones seen between the Manus, but i have not done my maths here and i rely on Sanjay's calculations. Best wishes Natabara Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2002 Report Share Posted July 17, 2002 Dear Natabara, >By the way i have heard that the Radhadesh temple is beautiful but i had >not yet the opportunity to visit, perhaps later i will. Please let me know if you would visit, then we can make an appointment to meet. >Sadaputa Prabhu is another great writer. It is new to me that the >chakras deal with the Jup-Sat conjunctions. Could you please elaborate a > bit more on this. Jup-Sat will be conjunct every 20 years, actually I calculated it and it is exactly 20 years of 360 days when they will be conjunct, so 3 of those conjunctions will form an aroha-cycle, another 3 will form an avaroha (descending) cycle, so we have the total of a chakra of 60 +60 = 120 years. However, these 120 years should be calculated as years of 360 days, so that's maybe where our calculations about chakras and the start of Kali Yuga goes wrong. Yet, the Hindu cycle of 60 years is calculated as solar years of 365 1/4 days, but then we see that there are 2 Subha-krit years in each cycle. Why? According to Jup-Sat. conjunctions a cycle would be about 59 years instead of 60. >In the Srimad Bhagavatam we read that due to the elasticity of time, one >yuga overlapped the previous yuga, and therefore one yuga appeared first >rather than later. Yes, Srila Prabhupada describes that in this cycle of Yugas, dvapara yuga (2nd) came after the Treta Yuga (3rd) because of Krsna's appearance on the junction of ages. Can you give the exact quote of the elasticity of time which you found in SB? I actually have never understood this. We can also ask ourselves the question: when Lord Chaitanya, who is Krsna Himself, appeared some 500 years ago, what happened to time at that time? He was said to inaugurate the 10,000 years of Golden Age within this Kali Yuga, however when we look around us, we don't see so many symptoms of a Golden Age yet, with all the killing, criminality, abortion etc around us? In New Age circles there is a lot of talk going on about shifting of dimensions around this time we are in now, as well as speeding up of time (which honestly I do believe as I'm getting less and less time these days) and it would finally come to a shift in dimension around 2012. Any thoughts on this from the Jyotish perspective? >What we should do in cases like that? In my opinion, we should follow >the guidelines from liberated souls. I agree. It's a pity they can be found only very rarely these days. >Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada knew more about jyotish than some of his >disciples want to think he did not know. Indeed, besides that, he belongs to the category of liberated souls whom we have to follow. Yours sincerely, Dhira Krsna dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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