Guest guest Posted August 12, 2002 Report Share Posted August 12, 2002 Although I had this posting ready for the past days, I was waiting until today to post it, because from yesterday I am in the Ketu bukti, which is better than my Mercury atmakaraka bukti. ** NOTE. The following email is my answer to Das email. Although his email was posted on the GJ list on the 27 July I have waited this long to answer due to lack of time to do so. Today however I did find the 6 hours to answer and here is my posting. I have deleted some of his offensive or irrelevant lines and there are some 21 pages to read. At 3 minutes per page you will need plenty time if you would like to read it. Because this is a message between 2 Vaisnavas, only some people may understand the whole posting but I am sure that Das will understand the inner meaning of it. Perhaps this is going to be my last posting on this list because of the unreasonable restrictions demanded by Das from me. I consider that Das’s demanding from me to drop off the Srilas from my postings has gone too far. And therefore in my belief, I cannot remain in a place or list in which such demands are requested from me. It is a question of principle and I am not going to break that principle. The word Srila that Das so much hates is a sign of respect among Vaisnavas and therefore as a Vaisnava I will not compromise my beliefs. I await his answer to see if I am free to post as I have done for the past 2 years. Disregarding my existence or departure from this GJ list I will still continue to post in my 2 private lists, my web page will continue to grow although perhaps from another location due to the fact that my new computer although more powerful, does not see the menu from my web site due to the new XP system. In due course, perhaps next year, you will be able to see my jyotish workshops via cam web, and one day you may read the 2nd book that I am preparing and the 1st book that is just waiting for a good time to be published. The monthly calendars will continue to be posted on my web site. Best wishes Natabara das J 02-08-02 **** Dear Das You <<I am responding to Natabar and Dhira Krishna and all can see, the quote I'm responding to is below my response.>> <<"We should follow the guidelines from liberated souls">> <<In practicality, you cannot tell who is and who is not on what level of spiritual attainment, and you certainly cannot tell if someone is "liberated". Further, you are not sure such a thing exists, as you cannot be sure of same, yet you speak as if it's reality. Odd.>> me It is a question of sradha, faith. You cannot tell who is you father but cuz you have faith in your mother, you know. Furthermore, that is why we need the help from a guru to help us see more clearly. Srila Sridhar Maharaja, our guru (yours and mine) had that rare spiritual vision to see well than us, and therefore he told us many times who was liberated. Maya devi is in charge of covering identities with her spells of illusion and therefore, not many people knew the real identity of Krishna when He appeared on Earth some 5,400 years ago in India, or the real identity of Lord Chaitanya when He appeared in India in 1486. Either you or me did not know that until we were told by higher authorities. A big test has come to you. Either you are Srila Sridhar Maharaja’s devotee only as a show (externally), or as a surrendered devotee to your guru and accept internally what he has said. You have claimed openly on this list your hate and anger against Srila Prabhupada and that is a big offence, you know that well as a Vaisnava. In fact it is the biggest offence, as you know, to commit Vaisnava apparadha, offences against a devotee. Srila Sridhar Maharaja has praised many times Srila Prabhupada and even has claimed that Srila Prabhupada is a Saktyavesa avatar, meaning for those that do not know the meaning, an empowered reincarnation. Therefore why you are claiming to be a devotee or Srila Srila Maharaja and do not want to accept his conclusion? I tell you why. Because you are in Maya. You only want to have a pet guru that satisfies your illusions. Our biggest enemies are the sadripus, or 6 material elements. We all are under their influence in a form or another, but it seems that you are at present suffering heavily from their attacks. This can be seen from your Vedic horoscope. The great B.V. Raman, a great Vedic astrologer of the last century said that malefic planets in the 2nd, 5th or 10th houses indicate that the native committed apparadhas (offences) in a previous life, by speech (2nd house), intention (5th), and deeds (10th house). We Vaisnavas learn that in this Kali Yuga we only get a reaction from a malefic speech or deeds. Malefic intentions are somehow spared from reaction in this Kali Yuga. However, we know well that intentions are like seeds waiting to fructify and that sooner or later those intentions will appear in the form of speech or deeds. In fact 2 astrology gurus have told me that intentions are the most important to study. It is the intention basically that determines our karma to follow. In your chart you have the Sun, which is considered malefic, in the 2nd house and Rahu another malefic is in the 5th house. Therefore we can say that in a previous life you committed some offences in speech and intention. Furthermore, although you have a beautiful Dharma-Karma-dhipati yoga in your chart, by having together the lords of the 9th and 10th houses, the yoga is undermined by the fact that Saturn is the badhaka lord for your rising sign Aries. A bhadaka sign, bhadaka lord, planets in a bhadaka sign and planets associating with badhaka lord have badhaka powers. Badhaka means obstruction. Therefore we can see that your beautiful yoga is also your worst nightmare. Because Jupiter is in his own sign and in the 9th house, house of dharma, you are spiritual protected due to your good sukriti done in previous lives, but I do not know for how long that protection will be there. Furthermore, you can see that Saturn is the owner of the 3rd constellation from your janma naksatra, birth constellation. You can consult my guidance to the Moon calendar or the book Muhurtha of Raman, and see that the 3rd constellation from the Janma naksatra is the worst of all. In this way you can see that Saturn is indicating some bad karma in your life. Then have a look at the fact that Saturn as the lord of the 10th house (karma) and 11th (labha) is in the 9th. Now look at the navamsa and see that Saturn is in the 6th house from Jupiter, the 9th lord, and this angle of 6th houses is not helpful. This means that your karma and labha are likely to suffer. Also, look at Jupiter in the 12th house in navamsa. Not helpful for a planet to be on the 6th, 8th or 12th houses in navamsa. In your Rasi, see that your ascendant Aries is under papakartari yoga (jammed between malefic planets and therefore bad results are expected) by 3 malefic, two of them being the lords of the 6th and 8th houses, or Mercury and Mars. Mercury can be malefic or benefic according to his association, and in this case his association of the Sun makes him a malefic and his ownership of the 6th house does not help. On one hand Jupiter makes you aware of your problem (you are lucky because there are many that do not even know the source of their problem) and on the other, Saturn brings illusion and takes your intelligence away. Duryodhana of the Mahabharata was very wealthy but he was very envious of the Pandavas wealth to the point of losing control of his anger and envy. Great devotees like Narada Muni told him that the only solution to avoid his own destruction was for him to ask forgiveness from the Pandavas, but Duryodhana was too proud to listen. Even Krishna gave him a last chance to avoid the Kuruksetra war, but Duryodhana full of pride invited his own destruction and died in the Kuruksetra war. As Vaisnavas, all Vaisnava gurus are our gurus, and Vaisnava apparadha is the worst offence to avoid because it takes our intelligence away, making us commit more offences until we go to hell. If you want me to forgive your insults against Srila Prabhupada, you should better put your act together. Bhaktivinode Thakur, our spiritual great-great-grandfather said in his Sri Chaitanya Shikshamrita page 90 “Lust, anger, greed, pride, infatuation, and malice are six enemies of heart”. Other translations to this have given illusion for infatuation and jealousy or envy for malice, but all indicate the same. I have heard that Sanjay Rath wrote about the sadripus in one of his books but I have not had yet the opportunity to read them. Because you are at present in your Saturn dasa (main period), Saturn has been testing you to the max. In my web I have given some tools to study Vedic charts. I have posted some useful tables that work on XL but I have still to post how to use them for those that do not know how. Because your Moon is in the constellation of Rahu, the XL table for Rahu can give you all your dasas, buktis and antaras, or main, sub, and sub-sub-periods. Of course you can study those periods from your own GJ programme. You can find in my web as well a simple guidance to read those periods. In it you can see that the periods of a combust planet are somehow bad, as it is your Mercury. Although Mercury close to your Sun gives also a very strong intelligence, as I have seen in the case of a friend that speaks 12 languages and 3 dialects, nevertheless, by being combust as for the rules given by Parasara, the intelligence fails in some spiritual ways. Also see that your Mercury is in the 8th house in navamsa, not helping much. >From your planetary periods you can see that the Saturn period is not very helpful because of Saturn being a badhaka, and by Saturn being the atmakaraka, did not help in his Saturn bukti. The periods of the Moon and Ketu did not help either because of them being in the badhaka house. And consulting the angles between the planets you can see that in your present Saturn period, the buktis of the Sun and Mercury did not help much because both planets are in a 6th house angle from Saturn. Regarding the relationship between buktis and antaras, see that the angles of 2,6,8 and 12 houses between them did not help either. It seems to me that by offending Srila Prabhupada, you have invited the sadripus to live in your heart. We should try to avoid them or minimize them but karma is subtle and sooner or later we are prone to fall under its influence. To attack Srila Prabhupada in the way that you do it is illusion. Your reluctance to see his real identity is due to your pride. I am not an expert in remedial measures, and therefore I do advise you to humbly approach Sanjay Rath and request from him some remedial measures that can counteract the reactions to your terrible offences. you <<Then "it's a pity they can be found only rarely these days". This implies again you are able to spot them. Not so. Also implies that you have found at least one, though rarely. Who on Earth right now is Nitya Mukta? How do you know? It's faith only really.>> Me Yes my dear Das, it is faith, and thanks to our lucky stars we come across nitya muktas or their bona fide representatives. You <<The claim about Prabhupada's knowledge of astrology is odd, given that he clearly shows ignorance of the matter when it's discussed in places in his books, like in Adi Lila when Mahaprabhus birth is covered as in "Simha Rasi simha lagna, ucha graha... find that verse and read the purport. Clearly, he has no idea what are the Ashta Vargas are, it's obvious, and that's really basic.>> me Das, I have had personal talks with some of Srila Prabhupada’s devotees telling me that SP knew astrology very well, and they do not have any profit in lying. It is easy to spot mistakes but more difficult to spot the goodness. I did quote that SP followed Jupiter Barbela as one of the clues that he knew astrology. Tell me how many astrologers in this list follows or know about Jupiter Barbela, including yourself? The sample you mention I know it by heart. It is in the Adi Lila Part 3 page 103. I did not say that SP was an expert astrologer. This is what I said: meRegarding Prabhupada "was neitheran astrologer nor astronomer", i would like to clarify this point.In my opinion, we should first define what is an astrologer or astronomer.In astrology we have a shade of astrologers. From the beginner to themaster, we have a variety of astrologers.Discarding those that only want a free astrological reading or a "tell meonly nice things about me, preferably what i want to hear as the supremecontroller of my life", we have the serious student of astrology.I know many people that although do not have the time to study astrology,they have the basic knowledge about how astrology works.With that basic knowledge, they are able to ask relevant questions or toknow what astrologers talk about.” If you read with calm you can see my point. I have been studying Vedic astrology for 26 years and I rarely touch the sad balas or asta vargas, but my ignorance about them does not make me an ignorant of jyotish. Otherwise the same rule I could apply to you regarding some “basics” What is more Srila Prabhupada’s mission was to teach Krishna Consciousness, not Jyotish Consciousness or Cooking Consciousness or Computer programming Consciousness. You <<Also, if he had known the power of Jyotish, he would have used charts of his disciples before deciding major things.>> me The main result required from jyotish is to know the past, present and future. The great Parasara Muni, one of the 18 fathers of Vedic jyotish did not draw a chart to know that his son Vyasadeva, the compiler of the Vedas, was going to incarnate. Parasara did not need to draw charts because he knew the most advanced forms of jyotish, which is knowing past, present and future. Jyotish in its primary form may require the calculation of charts, but in its more advanced form, charts or books are not necessary. I have seen this from some of my guru jyotishis. You must know by now that jyotish belongs to the karma khanda or the materialistic section of the Vedas, and therefore, when you are doing seva (service) to Krishna, you surrender all activities to the Lord, knowing that He will be in control. One day a nice sanyass came to live in my house for 40 days. He told me that he was a great brahmachari (celibate monk) collector in America and wishing to take sanyassa, he approached Srila Sridhar Maharaja, our guru maharaja (yours and mine). SM did ask some relevant questions to my friend and in the end he said “I cannot give you sanyassa because you are too young, you are only 23 years old.”. My friend was disappointed but he took it as Krishna’s mercy. However, next morning he was leaving SM’s ashram in India when a devotee came running toward him, saying “Maharaja wants to see you”. When my friend went to see him SM said to him, “Look, I have a lot of experience in giving sanyass to qualified students, and I can see that you are not ready for sanyass, but last night I did have a dream that Lord Chaitanya told me to give you sanyass. I do not know why but I am following His mercy and I will give you sanyassa today.” My friend was a nice sanyass and after his visit to my house, he did go to preach in Africa. Eventually he became a guru and had some disciples. One day by design of providence, he fell in jail and his disciples used to take prasadam (food offered to Krishna) to him while in jail. Eventually, thanks to the intervention of one of his female disciples, Maharaja was freed and had to leave that African country. In time, once he was back in America he married that lady. Our guru maharaja said that we are all like conscripts, we are not experts in warfare, we are only learning. We have been given by Krishna responsibilities beyond our skills. As long as we keep our nose clean, we will be successful in our service, but unfortunately we cannot change our destiny and we have to obey what Providence dictates. you <<He didn't use much Jyotish, most likely, because he had such a strong inclination to oversee everything himself.>> me Perhaps for mundane activities you can use the services of jyotish, but I have never heard about Krishna the overseer of everything in this cosmic manifestation, using jyotish, excepting in few cases, like when Krishna incited the Kurus to start the Kuruksetra war on the 14th day of the Moon. you << He didn't take to listening alot to outsiders, and using them.>> me Do you? you << And there were no qualified Jyotishis in the movement. A Jyotishi is covered by his own karma. You cannot make a Jyotishi out of anyone. So there were none in Prabhupadas life enough while alive, hence wrong people were appointed to key spots, causing havoc.>> me SP had a personal secretary, a great jyotish. Pradyumna das was an expert in Sanskrit and was helping SP in the translation of the Bhagavatam. I did meet Pradyumna in August 1976 at the Nouvelle Mayapur, the beautiful château-ashram of ISKCON in the South of France. When I did show my Vedic horoscope to Pradyumna prabhu, he asked me who did the calculations for it. Once I did explained to him that I had been studying western astrology since 1970 and Vedic since March 1976, he was convinced that I knew how to calculate my chart. Pradyumna did predict accurately that I was going to get married, but that I was going to suffer some troubles. He even told me, “you are going to start to get news when Mercury enters your ascendant Virgo in a few weeks time”. Everything came as he told me. Few days later I did meet the lady that was going to be my wife, and I did get a letter from her starting our relationship, the day after Mercury entered Virgo, as for Lahiri ayanamsa. You say that “there were no qualified Jyotishis in the movement”. In 1976 I did meet two of them. My then wife told me that she travelled by train in India with Pradyumna and Prabhupada in 1974 and that Pradyumna was already a competent jyotish. And you said “hence wrong people were appointed to key spots, causing havoc.”. Including yourself, we all were given an opportunity for service, although we did not have the needed qualifications, we did our best. Some of us succeeded and some failed, that is the nature in conscripts, we were fighting a war against maya and unfortunately we had some casualties of war. You << Jyotish is especially meant for Brahmins to use to sort out at least who they should and should not work closely with. He didn't do that. Many do not.>> me As I have said, jyotish deals with mundane activities. If you apply the rules of jyotish to every devotee, we would not have any devotees. None of us are qualified enough to approach the Lord. Our only qualification to receive His mercy is that we are the lowest of the low. That is what we are dealing with. We may run the risk in dealing with the fallen, but that is our job. You << I think this is a travesty in the Hindu world. It's a shame and sad.>> me It may be sad if you see it with mundane eyes. You <<In the section where Natabara gives the 1% thing about empowerment: DG:Learn from Gurus. Make them explain. If their idea is to just put you to work, as was done in Krishna movement, and then later MAYBE tell you something interesting, then don't buy it. Have enough dignity to know that a Guru should basically be a teacher with a price for his goods. Like any business. The idea that they own spiritual life is dead. Don't buy it. They do not. There are no rights anymore, no lineages, etc., that will all lead to trouble and confusion.>> me Here you are only teaching from your own experience, which is dictated from your own horoscope, every individual has a different karma and experience, you cannot generalise. you <<DG:Take it to the practical stage only now in this age. The Hare Krishna experiement, including the moods Natabar is still expressing which I heard in the times while I was getting plundered by one such 1% Guru along with all his other thousand disciples, is dieing, and that part lost is not a loss to the world. It's a gain.>> me Here again it is your own perspective. We all like to take risks. We run a big risk while alive and a big risk when dead. If I know now that I am going to meet Krishna in hell, I want to go to hell now. I am ready to run that risk to meet Krishna. You <<DG:Such sentimental drival is what keeps poor people in the bondage of low class sentimental and emotional religios satisfaction. Rather, one is better off trying to read books, try things on their own, find what works for them, and in that way, through real inner work, they will find their path. "The Path" and all the teachings of all the main Gurus, are so well documented now in books and the hearts and minds of tons of "attemptees" all over the world, such that anyone can hear the stuff nearly anywhere.>> me Here you are talking about following sastra (sacred books), but you disregard sadhu (the student) and guru (the teacher). You are supposed to know that those three elements have to be followed if we want to be successful. Yourself may have been cheated but in the end, by Krishna’s mercy you found a bona fide guru in the form of our Guru Maharaja. Why then you are denying to others the shelter of a guru? Because you were cheated does not imply that all are going to be cheated. If you were cheated it is due to your own karma, but that it is in the past, do not live in the past live in the present. you << I learned Jyotish from books, not a Guru, and I'm doing very well with it, both as software and when I speak to folks about their charts. I draw awe, praise, exclamations, tears, thanks, profusely, and I learned from books. Books. But the work of BV Raman, was indispensible in my life. He is my Guru, though I never met him. Were it not for him, I would not be here, nor this list. He's my Guru. But because of the age, I did not need to write to him, or meet him, at all. Though I did write. His books, vani, instructions, got to me, I read, paid attention, learned, and am grateful. When I help people, a little bit of BV Ramans sacrifices and late nights, early mornings, all of it, is going to that person. From now on in the West, pretty much, we can say, that BV Raman was the key turning point cornerstone person who caused the launch of Jyotish to the West. Indeed. Indeed. He's my Guru. But that means only teacher, and it does not imply God-ness. A Brahma Vidya Guru is no different. It's a form of Jyan exchange, with a price, either donation/dakshin, or payment price list. Who cares. There can even be competition there.>> me You have said “Were it not for him, I would not be here, nor this list.” But what about Srila Prabhupada?, if SP did do not come to the West either you or me or many other devotees would not have been Vaisnavas. We are all indebted to him that we found Krishna. Guru, sastra, sadhu. The 3 are essential to our success. You claim to have learned jyotish only from books, but what about sadhu?. Sadhu sangha, association of sadhus is all-important. This list, your own list has sadhus and therefore we all are learning nicely. Raman is one of the greatest Vedic astrologers of the last century. I too am indebted to him. Thanks to his books I did learn a lot about jyotish, but I am also indebted to so many other authors of Jyotish. But what about the many students of jyotish from whom I have also learned? And what about my jyotish gurus? Perhaps you have not yet met a jyotish guru, but I tell you, books and students are good, but the jyotish guru is super good. You <<DG:The thing is only useful is the disciple practices what is taught. There is NO value to spiritual life without application, except writing more lifeless books of teh same words as the "spirit-ologists" that came before you.>> <<DG:Rather, application and practice is everything. me You are right, theory and practice should go hand-to-hand in order to be successful. you DG:So I may know more than some other so called "Disciple" of a Jyotish "Living Guru" simply because I've applied this in my days ALOT. Me Ok, I see your point. you <<In ISKCON, they said "the spiritual master is expert and knows what each person needs personally for their spiritual life..." But everyone ended up in very few places-either on the collecting money team, or the pujari team, etc.>> me Every institution is limited, even a fish in an aquarium is limited. You <<Nobody was sent back to college. I had a full four year scholarship, and was an exceptionally bright person with a stellar educational background, halfway through a University, on a FULL scholarship which even included rent and spending money. I gave that all up at the instruction of the devotees, shaved up, and moved in.>> me Why did you give it up? Was you forced or intimidated?. You had free will, you should not blame them but yourself. you <<Implying that a "liberated soul" (a speculative judgement often based in coercive reasoning from others or sentiment, totally unproveable, and possible even non-existing as a true place or thing), can "guide us" whether or not he knows Jyotish, and that we should implicitly follow such "liberated souls", has led to more trouble than you can relate.>> me By faith we are ready to run the risk. I do believe that liberated souls exist in the past, present and in the future. And what you are talking about? That our guru Srila Sridhar Maharaja was “coerced” or “sentimental”? Think again what you are saying “prabhu”. You know very well that it was in the nature of Srila Sridhar Maharaja to speak the truth and that he was never intimidated, bribed, coerced, forced or told what to say. He was a free thinker. You <<Because, again, who knows who is liberated? Only God. So, you say someone is liberated, you say it to me. So I follow them and get really burned.>> me I do not have anything to lose by running the risk of following a true liberated person. If my lucky stars are protecting me, I will be successful in my risk. But if I am destined to be cheated, Be so, I do prefer to pay today for my bad karma than to pay tomorrow. you << Then what? That happened a TON in ISKCON because of this mentality. HK's act as if there's some line you cross, and once you do, all your words and instructions somehow become magically empowered to do wonders for virtually anyone and everyone, whether they get it or not, the instructions, no matter how badly they result in screwing over your life, are somehow wonderful and magical.>> me If we apply these rules to every institution, not only ISKCON, but the Vatican, Church of England, Mexican government, British government etc, we can see a similar result. Sometimes we have good leaders and sometimes (most of the times) not. you <<This mentality is simply "cult", and it leads to disasters in the lives of most of it's members. I think our movement has the wrong idea and etiquette around Guru. As you know, Sridhar Maharaja thought our daily Guru Puja and Vyas Asanas excessive, and I agree. The bowing, names, chanting, all of that. Vaisnavism is not a Guru Cult. It's about God.>> me Every school has its own approach and there may be room for improvement. Srila Prabhupada applied his teachings according to the age (the flower power age), time and circumstances. He told his disciples to adjust the teachings according to time and circumstances. You <<Guru means teacher. If they got nothing to teach, they should be quiet. Prabhupada surely did not know Jyotish, nor Sanskrit. I would say overall that Jnan was not his strength, I think compassion and militant like devotion to this one instruction "Preach in America" were. If you hang out with enough of his Godbrothers, you realize what he had they didn't, and vice versa.>> me Goravani prabhu, if you agreed with what Srila Sridhar Maharaja thought about certain rituals, then why you do not want to agree about what he said about Srila Prabhupada, that he is a saktyavesa avatar, or an empowered reincarnation? ISKCON did do not produce this statement, it came from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. You <<Natabar wrote: I wonder how sometimes some people give their childish opinion about SP. That he was like this or he was like that and really they are only giving their speculative opinion disguised as the opinion of "advanced devotees". From our low level of understanding we have to be told by High-level devotees, otherwise we miss the point. And this goes for the trying to read the horoscope of an exalted personality. There are no astrological rules to "discover" an exalted personality, because their life is empowered by God, and therefore beyond material labels. Unfortunately, we will always have people "presuming" to know, when in reality they do not know anything. We have to learn to detect the real Macoys.” <<There are so many problems with this paragraph, but I'm gonna do my best: 1. "I wonder how sometimes some people give their childish opinion about SP." You cannot and would not speak like this in other circles, say the business world.>> me I just did it. you << Notice he "wonders", implying it's just "so odd" and "beyond his comprehension" how people could possibly do something SO CHILDISH as to discuss their spiritual master or a famous person and while doing so give their opinions about him. Are you not giving yours by these indirect massive praises of him? >> me I was married for 9 years to a lady that was Prabhupada’s disciple. She admits that she was initiated very young at 15, and therefore she never grasped the importance of her own guru. A childish attitude is when real facts are lacking. I do try to praise Srila Prabhupada with the facts I got, even though he is not my formal guru, I am indebted to him. You << And, by the way, I find total devotion without question, which you are showing here, to be the one that is childish. I think those who are balanced are more correct actually, as in fact, Prabhupada isn't perfect, and cannot be in this world, and therefore, has to choose, and has to harm some, favor others, make some mad, etc etc... It's called life.>> me It is called karma if you do not know. You << Claiming someone is a Jesus is just going to lead to stupid emotional sentimental religion and wars.>> 2. "giving their speculative opinion disguised as the opinion of "advanced devotees"".... which is EXACTLY what you are doing right now by acting as if you KNOW they are wrong, you are right, and Prabhupada is just absolutely the cats meow in Guru material, which personally, I don't agree with by the way. I like him. But that we know. We've heard enough of the drival that goes on and on about how great he is. Ever notice how some of your godbrothers who were so Jai Prabhupada all the time and now they're very normal, and get angry, and are chasing young girls when in their 50's, and so on. That's all fine, but it's not a sign of having become "shanti" or "dhira" even though DIRECTLY in Prabahupda's association for years.>> Me I do have a question? Did you ever say jai Prabhupada? you <<The successorship of the lineage after Prabhupada was a mess that is still in court and still causing murders and more as you know.>> me karma is still rolling. you <<3. "From our low level of understanding we have to be told by high level devotees, otherwise we miss the point." <<You just said that often "advanced devotees" are liers. OK, so how does a beginner know? Answer: They can't. Sridhar Maharaja covered this nicely in Sri Guru and his Grace. It's KARMA or FORTUNE as to the ability to FIGURE OUT FOR OURSELVES who we are going to follow. Aha, it's in the chart.>> Me I have said “some advanced devotes may fall down” Yes, it is karma. You <<4. "And this goes for the trying to read the horoscope of an exalted personality." Wrong, you can read the horoscopes of 'exalted personalities'. In fact, the chart will either prove or disprove their so called exaltedness. There are MANY rules in Jyotish for this. I have placements in my own chart that clearly say in Jataka Tattva clearly things about devotion to Guru and so on. I completely disagree with this. >> me You can disagree, but I tell you, your guru can make a different horoscope for you. My horoscope does show the indications for this my life, but I believe that my guru maharaja made a new chart for me. How can you read that chart? You <<I think Prabupada was his chart, like everybody else, and it's pretty obvious in his chart he's going to be great, which either lagna you choose. And to many of us, he's another historical figure.>> me And to many of us he is more than that. It is a question of perspective. Here I disagree, it is only one lagna that shows his real identity in our three dimension perception, and that lagna is Sagittarius as Sanjay, Robert and me and many others believe. Other lagnas deviate our attention from his greatness. Of course, anyone can fit an astro reading to any lagna but it will be faulty if the data is inaccurate. And regarding the historicity of SP, just tell me who else in human history achieved something similar or better than what SP did?. The answer is none. Just to mention one achievement, SP translated, prepared and published the Classic Chaitanya Charitamrita in 17 volumes in only 18 months. Any one in the know is aware how difficult is to write, prepare and publish a single book, never mind 17 in 18 months and of the superb quality of the subject matter. You << We do not have to honor your sentiments in our lives. We do not. >> me I am not forcing anybody to do that, every individual can choose for themselves, but I am entitled to express my opinions or should not do that in your list?. You remind me of a crazy temple commander who used to say “Do not think, we will think for you” You <<5. "There are no astrological rules to "discover" an exalted personality, because their life is empowered by God, and therefore beyond material labels." This is totally NOT true. There are MANY astrological rules for discovering a great personality. The books are full of references to religiosity, spirituality placements. Read the 9th chapter of Jataka Tattva for the largest set I've seen yet, but just the "Mahapurush Yogas", well they're named "Great Peron Placements", that's what it means. Then there are yogas for great travelling preachers, great givers of knowledge, great lovers of God. I think you're very wrong here.>> me Books are only books, material. Krishna’s mercy is spiritual. You cannot read spiritual activities with a material science, even if divine science, because spiritual is beyond material grasp. But then again it is a matter of perspective, if that is the way that you see it, good luck to you. You <<Like Druids and Brahmins often have done, they have "kept" the secrets by acting as if there are some, when often there are not. "Empowered by God" sure is a great confusing telephone line to refer to which nobody can see, which sends the sentimental masses back home confused and praying, just where you want them.>> me Karma. You <<"...and therefore beyond material labels..." end of discussion kids...go home...can't talk about Prabhupada, he's absolutely perfect and I'm telling you, and I'm the temple president, oh and therefore, I'm perfect too, because I'm his rep, and well, therefore, I'll sit behind the desk and talk to the woman all day, while you guys go out and collect "for the pure devotee Prabhupada" but bring the money to me here, since I'm the big cheese at this temple, and I'll just sneak a little for my personal 401K etc., my investements, after all, I'm a "big devotee" and "krishna needs me here..">> me I do have another question. Were you also an ISKCON leader?. I never was or intend to be. One thing is to attract opulence by good karma and another thing is to make a business out of spiritual activities. In the first instance it does not attract a reaction, and in the second instance a bad reaction will destroy the perpetrator. Those that profit or steal money from the guru’s name, will pay dearly today or tomorrow. I do know many ISKCON leaders, and some were like you mention and some are sincere. Another question?, which one you were? You <<6. "Unfortunately, we will always have people "presuming" to know, when in reality they do not know anything." To a real Hindu, or Celt, nothing is said to be "unfortunately", because lamenting the real is not done. You even admit "we will always have...", so why lament?>> me I do admit, I have the tendency to lament sometimes I do need someone to play the violin so that I can lament better, but I cannot help it, even thought I do know that lamentation is illusion, I still lament. But how many times we have read your laments in this list? Therefore, if you are a real Celt, why you still lament? You << Secondly, people must presume to know what they feel they know, otherwise they cannot act. You are presuming you are correct as you write what you write, in fact, it's quite obvious you really believe what you are writing, there's even a hint of santimony to boot. But especially the last line, very "Prabhupada-esque". He often called all men "boys" and all woman "girls", in America anyway, a bit contemptuous >> me Perhaps contemptuous to you but I do feel as my Mexican culture prescribes that Srila Prabhupada had the right to call boys and girls because of his old age and seniority. Bhaktivinode Thakur wrote “Disregard for elders is of three kinds. (1) Negligence to parents. (2) Negligence to advisers (3) Negligence to other superiors.” I have read in your postings about your disregard. You <<I'd say, he didn't do that in India. Anyway, he would say drastic generalizations which you repeat here like "...is reality they do not know anything".>> me Do you know everything? You <<Now, lets see, Robert Koch commented heavily on Prabhupadas chart. Did you mean him? A disciple of prabhupada who did 20 yrs as a Brmcri. Him? Me? Who is so bogus that you're referring to. Can you name this person who "does not know anything".>> me When I did post what you refer to, no member of this list was in my mind, but if you wish to put the hat on, you are welcome to it. Regarding Robert Koch, although he is not my guru I feel that he is showing at present the 1% of his Guru Maharaja, whether or not he is going to show later on a 10% or even a 100% I do not know. Only Krishna knows. Regarding you, in my last two years in this list I have never read a bogus commentary about Prabhupada until this email that you have posted, unless I have missed something. you <<Prabhupada said things like "these Mayavadi speculators, they have no knowledge". Things like that. You hear it on the tapes all the time. By such statements his disciples learned such bigotry. Other Gurus, most, do not speak like that. Prabhupada liked militancy, and therefore liked Bhaktisidhantas rude and militant style also, and imitated it. He said so himself on a walk in Mayapur. That he was trying to be like, but was not as good as, his Guru, "who was the real thing". The real thing, when he went to Vrnadavan on tour, got all shops shut in his face due to protest of the residents for his insulting ways.>> me What can I say, I cannot change your dristhi, your views, but that is not the way I see it. You <<This is also our sampradaya. Myself, I'm for removing the holiness, and making them accountable, just like in the Catholic Church. If you want to be a teacher, you had better be right, and no more of this Prabhupada style holier than thou name calling stuff.>> me Who are you to decide what is right? Are you another crazy temple president or temple commander wanting us to follow your tyrannical ways? No way Jose. It is up to you to show you real face, what do you want to play? A bad man or a nice American?. And I have to tell you, neither you nor any Great Big Cheese acting foolish is going to intimidate me. And regarding “If you want to be a teacher, you had better be right”, any teacher can make mistakes, and providing that those mistakes are small, we can disregard them. And regarding “and no more of this Prabhupada style holier than thou name calling stuff.”. You should better think twice about this demand “prabhu”, cuz you remind me of a crazy guru asking me to “surrender” to him or else, I have to say that he long ago is “Gone with the wind”. I have left institutions before for less than this Hitler rule of yours. You <<As far as I'm concerned, in general, Hare Krishna devotees are not nice, nor enlightened. I think we did service, and will be justly rewarded, but as far as developing yogic qualities, many simply developed their passion, and you do not find them, when they leave, living sattvic lives. No, it was the army. It wasn't the high council. It was the front line grunt with the militant general. That's my opinion. We cleared the way alot, and took the first hits...cannon fodder....it's all good, him and us, but hey, this is my opinion, I think the kind of pure devotee canned lines you and dhira are bandying about ultimately won't do either of you any good. This kind of "my lineage" and so forth is dead. The new age needs new ways. Adjust. It's time for delivery, specialization, honesty most of all. Honesty. Deliver something, don't be everything, and definitely don't try to be the one be all and end all source of spiritual truth, above all others. Bhaktisidhanta clearly had this sanctimonious mood, and so did Prabhupada, and therefore so did his disciples. I reject it, I quit, I hug everyone now, and I'm still a Vaisnava, but I'm sure not into Sanctimony. I can't even be around devotees because of the absurd amount of time spent sortof telling each other how right we are, like you and dhira are doing here publicly, which I used to do, but I've changed.>> me Are you sure that you have changed? For better or for worst? In my days living in ashrams I did come across some mad leaders like you and do you know what? None of them could tame me. I could see thru them that they were only playing stupid tantrums like you often do in this list. Put your act together man, you do not fool me. It seems that you are still dwelling in the damage done to you by those so called Vaisnavas. But not every devotee is the same and I have to tell you, that you are not the only victim of those mistakes done by ISCKON leaders. As a jyotish I have seen a lot of injustices and miscarriages of justice. You should consider yourself lucky because you still live with your children. Other devotees were not so lucky. I do wish well to any “fallen” Vaisnava. I do not like the injustices and errors committed by them. I do know that like any of us they fell victims of the sadripus in a very bad way. They did achieve a high position due to their unseen karma from previous lives, but they had to pay dearly for their offences against Vaisnavas. I do not want to take a part in their sinful activities but I want to take a part for their recovery and salvation. I do really pray to Krishna that does not matter how sinful their actions were, that please they do achieve mental sanity and achieve success in their spiritual life. you <<7. "We have to learn to detect the real Macoys." This is beautiful. You have no idea. I am born from Clann MacAoid, as it's properly written, sometimes called MacKay, MacKey, MacCoy etc So Natabar, you are currently reading the words of a real MacCoy. In fact, sitting next to me is my newly acquired Gaelic/Celtic library, now about 2 feet high and growing. Love it. Call me Ngetal MacAoid, and just know that I'm having fun.>> me With all my respects, I do not thing that you are a real Macoy, not even a real MacAoid as you claim. A real MacAoid behaves better than you do, he/she has more substance in his/her writings than you do. Therefore if you want to be a real MacAoid, try to be one. You cannot fool any member of this list. You <<Sorry for seeming hard. I just really think we will all grow much more now if we drop worshipping people completely and just talk about science, technique, application, etc. You can pause NOW AND THEN to give out awards to big donators to the cause, like Abhay, yes, honorifics, I don't care anymore, he's Abhay, anyway, we no longer have the political and social structures that required and supported that system you and I gave our lives to which now neither of us can stand really (standard ISKCON temples complete with the Kanishta mood). So why keep repeating it?>> Me Sorry for being harder than you, as the most you look terrific, but believe me, we Mexicans can be more harder and vicious than you. Do not tempt us. I am an artist and therefore free to worship whatever I do want. I refuse to be on a list or place where I am restricted in the way you want me to be. I will consider any reasonable suggestion but when not convinced and knowing that I do not harm, I will refuse to conform. I am a free thinker. You <<Drop all Srila's and so on. Forget all external honorifics. Goods are the thing. The goods. Love is automatic.>> me Love is respectful and Srila is an address of respect, I do refuse to be unrespectful. And what about Sri Krishna? Or Srila Maharaja? You know, long ago a guru was told by his god-brothers to forget Srila Sridhar Maharaja if he wanted to remain a guru in the institution. They wanted him to erase SM even from his heart. He left the institution. When Srila Sridhar Maharaja heard about it, he said something like “They are too extremists, as they are acting now they will be treated later.” When those guys went to talk to SM, he heard them talk and in the end he said “I am like Sahadeva, he was the astrologer of the Pandava brothers, when the Kuruksetra war was declared, Sahadeva closed his eyes. He was the astrologer and therefore, he did not want to see the future of the Kurus. In a similar way, I close my eyes on you, because I do not want to see your future.” And I do tell you, unless you post in this list that I will not have any restrictions in my postings, I will not post ever again in this list, because what I am doing is not for profit but for love. And love has no restrictions. You <<It doesn't have to be taught.>> me Sometimes it has to be taught what you have in mind, we cannot read minds. You <<When you start saying people are bad cuzz they love wrong, which is what you're doing, then you become very wrong yourself. Be very careful. I admit my past nature in this way. I repent. As I teach in the future what I know, I will make sure my students know that I am just one of them too, and that they too should learn, then share with those who follow them. It's that simple. Learn, then teach and always try to apply as per your own life and choice. >> me I think that here in this list we are all adults, and therefore we have the brains to think and make up our own mind. You <<So simple. Dakshina is dead, so now Brahmins must charge. Simple. Offer something, actually teach, leave out the cult drival sanctimony comments, and you're awesome!>> me Now you are really talking like a mad temple commander, it seems like you have not lost your bad habits “prabhu”, please do not intimidate me cuz I am “trembling”. Somehow, Krishna has put me in a position in which for the past 10 years I only live from charity and donations and therefore I never charge a dime for my services. It may be difficult but somehow Krishna has provided well to cover my living, which is not much, just simple living, high thinking. You <<Get REAL.>> me I do think that it is you the one that has to get real. And I really mean it, just read your postings and do not give the excuses that you are “ill” And one more thing. You have posted that you are now in Jupiter bukti but according to the chart in your GJ programme, you will start the Jupiter bukti on 18 December 2002, and what is more, do not think that Jupiter is going to protect you much in his next bukti, because you will be under the dasa chidra of Saturn (the last bukti of the Saturn dasa). For more info on dasa chidra you can consult my posting in my web site. Instead of playing the little Hitler you better try to correct your GJ programme cuz I have found serious bugs in it and although I have posted to you about them, you never had the courtesy to answer me. Please do not forget to ask Sanjaya for a remedial measure. I am confident enough that he and Lord Jaganatha can help you out if you so wish. Srila Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati declared war on Maya long ago. I want to be on his side in that battle and I am ready to run the risk involved, many of our soldiers have fallen already victims to Maya, if that is my destiny be so. You have a great potential and therefore we need you on our side rather than a prisoner of Maya. You know very well what I mean. Although you have calculated that you are now in the Jupiter bukti, you are still in Rahu’s because the moon parallax is not valid in Vedic astrology. Nevertheless, you should take opportunity of Rahu which can take you out of the “mud” as Lord Varaha the representative of Rahu lifted the earth up from the mud of the universe. Because you are in Saturn dasa, Rahu bukti, and Saturn rules the 7th from your purva punya house and Rahu is in the 5th , it seems that relationships in a previous life were neglected by you, and therefore in this life you are suffering what they had suffered in the past. In a previous life you did not care about their suffering and now you have the opportunity to find out. Since I finish this email you have mention recently Sulochana. He was my good friend when we worked together in the Spiritual factory in Hetton le Hole in the North of England in 1978 or 79. I am aware of those problems because of I have read the famous article about it in the Rolling Stone magazine and I have read as well the book “Monkey with Stick”. Sulochana’s case is a good example that we are not the controllers and therefore, we can die at any moment. Just recently, one of my friends died of a brain hemorraghe. We was caught on a street video camara coming out of a wine shop at 11 pm and collapsing ouside, fracturing his skull. He was death before he hit the ground. By being obsessed with your women you are in danger of reincarnating in a suitable body for you to understand your obsession. You also mention about your poor diet. If you continue with such a diet, your cholesterol is going to rocket up and then you may get irreversible illnesses. I know that it is difficult for you to act in a better frame of mind but I know that your Vaisnava training can help you to do that. You have done it before in past lives and you know how to do it again. Best wishes Natabara das J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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