My Ayanamsha

August 21, 2002

I was going to write a tactful letter, but to prove that my

Mercury is combust, I'll just go with the feeling that I'm

just "too burnt out" to lie (oh sorry, I mean, be diplomatic)

I think our ayanamsha creating friend is not aware of the

seriousness of the matters with which he currently is playing.

That's my impression anyway.

In the last few days he changed his precession rate by 20

sec/arc/yr, and increased his alignment date to compensate.

You end up with the same values today, but with the added

convenience of using the correct precession rate (observable

reality comes to our aid on that number).

I need not proceed amongst the learned, but to protect the

innocent, oh well, damn duty again, boring....

Ayanamsha, "the subtracted amont", is directly related to

the precession of the equinoxes, or the difference between

the sidereal and tropical zodiacs. The tropical zodiac is

observable in the Northern Hemisphere life world as the

seasons. The earth is on a wobble like any good

'spinning-top' toy, Gods little human maker/cage ball here

named Gaia being no different.

The sidereal zodiac is the real stars. The Sun for example

enters the Stars of Aries on about April 14th each year.

However, you know that solstice stuff, you know, the longest

day shortest day of the year stuff?

Yeah, that's "real" in that it's "observable", k-no-wa what

I minno ?

So, like if you start your signs on those days, then like,

whenever those days are, like thats when the sign starts

according to you then, right? RIght.

OK, so like, what if the Earths wobbling motion is each

making that solstice happen a little bit sooner or later or

such? Is that possible?

Yes, definitely- later, by 52 seconds of arc distance in

space, or in other words, if you see the Earth as a ball

comprising 360 degrees, each of those degs having 60 minutes

within themselves, and each of those having 60 seconds

within, so the movement forward is this:

The year lengthens really, so people say stuff like "the

earth is slowing down" and sell lots of video tapes.

See that where the Sun is in the zodiac, against that back

drop, is 50 seconds earlier in distance traversed against

the starry backdrop, each year, which after 70 years or so

is around a degree, and so after 2000 years or so you have

like say 23 degrees difference like we do now.

There are 23 degrees difference between the 2 "we are going

to say 'aries starts here' groups", the tropicalist and the

siderealists.

Tropical is sun sign, solstice based, our seasons based,

astrology.

Sidereal astrology, RELIES on the ayanamsha to calculate

backwards from tropical values arrived at by the

computations. Since astronomers don't care about reading

charts, they are fine if the zodiac slips, so long as they

all know what each other is talking about.

But they will look at planets, and they know the difference

between the two "referencing systems" which is really all

this is to astronomy knowers. It's all negotiable when the

science is dry.

But when the look at Saturn today, they see where it is, and

they know where Tropical calcs would put it, and they adjust

much like with an ayanamsha. They KNOW as I do that our

current calculations are correct. We know what the sep

currently is, that is not in question. Lahiri is best for

this and for us therefore as far as I understand.

Ayanamsha is a not a perfect science yet from NASA's

viewpoint as some parts of that puzzle a not fully solved to

exacting numbers, such as alignment date if any existed, ...

more on the wobble... it has not been observed in the modern

tracking sense all that long, but ancient cultures knew of

the problem, so it's also not a new thing at all.

I find that to stand and say "my ayanamsha" is a very risky

proposeful on the field of intellectuals who know better.

But, there is one thing I too will do anything for, yes,

love. And in that arena, I'm a fool, no intellectual.

Is love worth overlooking astronomy?

Hell yeah!

Wait, don't be a Kelt for a moment.

Uhhh, of course not!

August 21, 2002

Das Wrote:

> But when they look at Saturn today, they see where it is, and

> they know where Tropical calcs would put it, and they adjust

> much like with an ayanamsha. They KNOW as I do that our

> current calculations are correct. We know what the sep

> currently is, that is not in question. Lahiri is best for

> this and for us therefore as far as I understand.

Yes Das,

Absolutely, 100%, positively, indisputably correct!! I don't know why these

issues of ayanamsha keep surfacing year after year but I suspect it may be

due to some astrologers trying to make sense of charts with incorrect T.O.B.

They fiddle with the ayanamsha trying to rectify the situation...instead of

fiddling with the time. Another reason is inexperienced astrologers

adjusting charts to fit with what they think they should be.

I'm sorry to say that the recent discussion on Paramahansa (with Venus

moving to 5th) is way off the mark. Following the events of his life as

manifested through vimsottari dasa system there can be no doubt that his

chart according to Lahiri ayanamsha is correct.

Best Wishes,

Wendy

http://www.ganesh-astro.iinet.net.au

August 21, 2002

MY preferred ayanamsha is Raman; I continue to test it against other values

and I do not find any line ups better than what I get with Raman.

Curtis

www.starworldnews.com

August 21, 2002

MY preferred ayanamsha is Raman; I continue to test it against other values

and I do not find any line ups better than what I get with Raman.

Curtis

www.starworldnews.com

And then there's Rick Houck! He formulated his own ayanamsha and turned out to

be one of the very few published astrologers who accurately predicted G W Bush

to win US presidency instead of Gore.

You know about recent discoveries in physics; it's been shown that the eye of

the observer scientist who expects a certain result, has a proved effect upon

the results themselves.

Could this include expectations based upon firm belief in a certain ayanamsha?

"Balderdash!", says the majority...but what about Curtis, what about Rick, what

about Tarun?

Different ayanamshas that they use could be considered analogous to the glasses

that a person wears who has not got 20-20 vision without specially corrected

lenses, who sees what everyone else sees, but through a glass brightly!

Love to you all,

Carol

August 21, 2002

I have seen what I call localized astrological Personal

reality.

This is my term for the following:

Each of us has karma, and therefore a locality also in local

space, or local spacial existence and therefore reality.

This means we are living somewhere, and we are somebody. Our

karma is blocking us from being other people, rather, it is

giving us one perspective, one opening, one capability set,

and this is "ours" alone.

I have noticed for example, that I see and know way more

Swati Moon people than is statistically correct. It's very

lopsided in fact. Nearly half the woman in my immediate life

of relatives, friends, past associates, etc., are Swati

Moons. This is one point. Another point: I am a fire rising

sign. As an astrologer, I've noticed without exception that

my friends fall into my life by their rising signs- fire

always have a certain position with me which is easier, more

natural. The kinship of the 3 fire rising signs is clear to

me and it drives my life alot.

I have consistant and similar problems with certain Moon

sign people, no matter what else they have in their charts.

People who are Virgo Moon or Rising are generally involved

with me in my life only in ways and relationships which are

at least not easy, if not containing some definite strife,

even when neither of us wants it, and it may not be, isn't

always, between us, but one way or the other something comes

along that is at least a little hard and involves sixth

house issues for me, which is where I have Virgo.

Now, this I say because, Tarun has many charts he says, and

they match a pattern. I bet these are predominantly people

in his area, or his race, and who have come to him somehow.

This is all tied in various ways you see, into his

"Localized Astrological Personal Reality". I find in mine

there are patterns that I am karma to, that I am supposed to

be living and learning from, but since I'm an astrologer, I

can see them, and if I make the mistake of thinking they are

universal patterns, that would be wrong.

I think it is TOTALLY possible, for one of us to have a

predominance of one kind of type of chart more heavily in

our personal collections, without thinking much about it.

If you are a member of any "group", then you may get your

charts primarily from other members, and this will surely

swing your findings in ANY research you do with THESE charts

ALONE because they all already share something common

amongst themselves which is a RIPE aspect of karma, that is,

which Guru to pick, or Church, or any other such thing. So

watch for this fact in your minds if it applies to you, and

think about other such things.

For example, I have noticed a fairly reliable trend that

people who have saturn in the 2nd come from stricter

families than what is normal around them in their areas. I

have noticed that often these have been, in my experience,

comprised mostly of the children of Jewish and Japanese

families.

Now note, this will not be true for someone looking at

charts in Japan. It may end up not working out as well there

locally, but here it does because here most families are not

up to that level of strictness of family life within the

family structure in COMPARISON TO the other families around

them.

Similarly, Hindus in America, white hindus that is, like me

and my friends, often have a Node in the first or with the

Moon. This will not apply in India, because there a Hindu is

not a foreignor.

So we must remember these things.

In Tarun's reality and world, his findings may work. In

ours, they may not.

But certainly one thing is true. One must use the same ruler

length on all their viewings and tests, otherwise, it really

becomes a joke to talk about houses in hundreds of charts.

They must all be redone and re-examined now that the

ayanamsa has again changed. To mention past feelings about

"hundreds of charts" is probably based on looking over time.

Since the new ayanamsa is only a few days old, did you

already re-look at 200 charts with transits on marriage dates?

I'm sensing here something quite odd. I see you are sincere,

and I am not attacking you, but now this I think what I say

is pertinent. I am only doing this, continuing on, for the

sake of not being a quitter. And Tarun, that thing about not

being kicked off the list, I wouldn't do that unless someone

was outwardly totally rude and obnoxious to others, and you

are not like that at all.

But you don't need to call me sir. Consider me your friend.

I am just a man, nothing special, and such formalities we

don't use here, so don't feel obliged to keep calling me

sir. Consider me friendly, no such things needed with me

personally anyway.

I hope this helps. Tarun, maybe you need to step back and

think exactly what has been the order of events for you, and

what is driving you, and what is correct to think about

these matters.

Perhaps it might also help for me to tell you this:

Histories numerous astrological scientists and scholars has

produced a wealth of what can be referred to as "trustworthy

cross verified observations throughout modern history, which

includes the entire time of the tilt really, or the last

2000 years. Thus when Lahiri and others who are scientists

formulated their theories, they were looking at those

observations made by past astronomers, which are recorded

observations of planets against exact star background points

in the zodiac, ie, the observable zodiac, ie, the real one,

the Sidereal one.

So what we have when we have observed placements is EXACT

AND REAL SIDEREAL placements. So this tell us if our

ayanamsa theory is correct or not. They have come to find

that to make it correct, you cannot use a straight line. So

right off the bat, you should know that your approach is

limited in that it is a straight line, ie, having only an

alignment date and rate of change per year.

So, we know where planets were here and there throughout

history for real, then we know the current movement rate for

sure, so your anamsa, THE ayanamsa we should say, as there

can be only one, it must match the current rate, and

observations made over time. This is what the real ayanamsa

scientists work with, and other things known from astronomy.

In the code below, you can see the standard alignment dates

and rates used, and you'll notice most use the

scientifically arrived at rate of "50.2564 per year".

That's the real rate used in the mainstream ayanamsas.

Notice the first portion, which covers "nutation". This is

the nuance calculation of this game, and accounts for the

curvature in the wobble, since we're on a ball, not a plane,

so it's not a straight line, it has a curvurture or swing to

it which changes the precessional rate over time as well.

So firstly, there's a direct and immediate problem with the

straight line approach, though it's not THAT great, but

still....

You can see most have wisely agreed to accept the standard

rate, but why some dare to differ so much with observations

made is only explainable in that, we humans generate things,

not always logically, and we just have to be with it.

There's not much to say about it.

I think if one is honest, one will say, this is OUT of my

hands. The only way one should mess with anything other than

Lahiri is of one is able to say:

1. I have the recorded observations from savants through

history.

2. I have noted them, worked against them, and have found

the pattern that works.

3. I have also accepted the standard rate or have found a

better one, not because of intuition or reveltation, but

because of observational data from an observatory, and

records, and I'm prepared to document these matters.

4. I have understood the principle of nutation, and have

considered that, and still can demostrate that I have found

something better than Lahiri

5. Everything I'm doing is based on science, not anything

else, as this part of our field is purely physical science.

We are looking for the REAL thing, the one that MATCHES data

we have, primarily and firstly, this is the whole point.

If you're not able to say that, you really shouldn't do this.

Now, the one acceptable exception, is what Rick Houck did.

He simply said "make this small, and steadily applied,

difference with Lairi. It should be an amount of say a

degree or two, or less. This is somewhat rational, but I

won't go into why, I've done my duty. However, I feel from

what I know, it should be a good bit less than a degree.

NASA feels that their calculations are correct to within

minutes of a degree with the Moon, and that's the hardest

one. Other than that, they feel they are closer, quite a bit.

If you understand these things, you will realize that you

are kindof doing a weird thing here. I'm just trying to say

it many ways and make it clear. This is not scientific.

I know Wendy supports me, as she wrote. Thank You. I am

wondering if there is anyone with more scientific knowledge

or equal maybe, to me, who could verify or deny any of my

points as being incorrect?

I seek only to be correct, not respected, so it's fine to

tell me where I'm wrong.

I seek not at all to cause harm to you Tarun. You have,

fortunately for many, caused me and others to write some

things that will problably be helpful to others.

So good!

No worries.

peace

Here is the code in computer language for Lahiris ayanamsa:

/* Precession and Nutation */

{

double ln, ms;

ln = fMod360 (259.183275 - 1934.142008 * aT + (2e-6 *

aT + 0.002078) * aT2);

ms = 279.5955778 + 36000.76892 * aT + 0.0003025 * aT2;

/* mean long of sun */

nutation = (-(17.2327 + 0.01737 * aT) * dSin (ln) -

1.273 * dSin (2.0 * ms)) / 3600.0;

}

switch (ayanamsaStyle)

{

case LAHIRI_AYANAMSA:

/* 22ø27'37.57" at 01/01/1900 with 50.2564" per

year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (80857.57 + (5025.64 +

1.11 * aT) * aT);

ayanamsa += nutation;

break;

case B_V_RAMAN_AYANAMSA:

/* 21ø00'51.98" at 01/01/1900 with 50.2564" per

year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (75651.984 + (5025.64 +

1.11 * aT) * aT);

ayanamsa += nutation;

break;

case SRI_YUKTESWAR_AYANAMSA:

/* To match David Frawley's "The Astrology of

Seers" in 1/1/1950 */

/* 21ø00'41" at 01/01/1900 with 54" per year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (75641.0 + (5400.0 + 1.11

* aT) * aT);

/* ayanamsa += nutation; */

break;

case J_N_BHASIN_AYANAMSA:

/* 21ø20'37.69" at 01/01/1900 with 50.2564" per

year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (76837.69199 + (5025.64 +

1.11 * aT) * aT);

ayanamsa += nutation;

break;

case FAGAN_BRADLEY_AYANAMSA:

/* 23ø20'38.15" at 01/01/1900 with 50.2564" per

year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (84038.148 + (5025.64 +

1.11 * aT) * aT);

ayanamsa += nutation;

break;

case KRISHNAMURTI_AYANAMSA:

/* 22ø22'09.59" at 01/01/1900 with 50.23" per

year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (80529.588 + (5023.0 +

1.11 * aT) * aT);

ayanamsa += nutation;

break;

case DELUCE_AYANAMSA:

/* 26ø24'46.98" at 01/01/1900 with 50.2564" per

year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (95086.98 + (5025.64 +

1.11 * aT) * aT);

ayanamsa += nutation;

break;

case USHA_SHASHI_AYANAMSA:

/* 18ø39'39.46" at 01/01/1900 with 50.2564" per

year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (67179.456 + (5025.64 +

1.11 * aT) * aT);

ayanamsa += nutation;

break;

case SUNDARA_RAJAN_AYANAMSA:

/* 21ø30'25.24" at 01/01/1900 with 50.2564" per

year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (77425.236 + (5025.64 +

1.11 * aT) * aT);

ayanamsa += nutation;

break;

case LARRY_ELY_AYANAMSA:

/* 26ø36'39.79" at 01/01/1900 with 50.2564" per

year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (95799.78 + (5025.64 +

1.11 * aT) * aT);

ayanamsa += nutation;

break;

case SHILL_POND_AYANAMSA:

/* 19ø10'37.81" at 01/01/1900 with 50.2564" per

year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (69037.812 + (5025.64 +

1.11 * aT) * aT);

ayanamsa += nutation;

break;

case HOUCK_AYANAMSA:

/* 22ø22'27.57" at 01/01/1900 with 50.2564" per

year */

ayanamsa = secsToDegs (80547.57 + (5025.64 +

1.11 * aT) * aT);

ayanamsa += nutation;

break;

case TROPICAL_AYANAMSA:

ayanamsa = -nutation;

break;

}

--

Das Goravani , President

2852 Willamette St, #353

Eugene, Oregon, 97405

USA

Voice:

or

<>

Home of "Goravani Jyotish"

Vedic Astrology Software , and more...

August 22, 2002

Dear Das

you

<<I was going to write a tactful letter, but to prove that my

Mercury is combust, I'll just go with the feeling that I'm

just "too burnt out" to lie (oh sorry, I mean, be diplomatic)>>

me

I am happy for you that you are starting to come back.

Yes, yoy are right, you have Mercury combust but of all the planets Mercury

has also some good points when combust.

Somewhere Raman says that when the Sun and Mercury are either on the 2nd,

4th or 5th house indicate an astrologer.

Because you have the Sun and Mercury in the 2nd indicate that you have the

potential of an astrologer.

This life is the result of our purva punya, or merits done in a previous

life.

And the 5th house shows as well our purva punya. By having Rahu in the 5th

house indicates that you commited some aparadhas in a past life in your

intentions, and 5th lord the Sun is in the 2nd house indicates that

aparadhas were commited by you in speech. (The sun being a malefic in the

2nd indicates that).

Furthermore, 5th lord the sun is with Mercury, a dusthana lord by ruling the

6th house. However, when the lords of dusthana houses are in dusthana house

in either the rasi or the navamsa charts, the bad propensities come down in

intensity. We can see this example in your chart.

Furthermore, because Mercury is the owner of the 6th house, the house

representing service, by associating with lord of the 5th indicates that you

made some service (seva) in a previous life, which gave you good credits.

That unseen seva, resulted in you having good concessions in this life.

All the representations from the 12 houses can dissapear at death or at the

point of liberation, except for dharma as indicated by the 9th house.

Sanatana dharma, or our eternal engagemet, our eternal duty will never

dissapear. Even when Jupiter is weak, his dristhi (vision) protects. In

your chart, Jupiter as lord of dharma is aspecting your ascendant and youy

5th house, giving you some protection. The only problem is that Jupiter is

not aspecting Mars, your lagna lord, but that aspect can be seen in the

navamsa chart, indicating a protection in a subtle level (navamsa), rather

than the physical (rasi).

In 1985, in our ashram in black heath, Greewich, London, a nice devotee that

helped the printing of our Guru Maharaja's Bhagavad Gita, was telling us

about one of his experiences in Mexico in the past. He said that when

travelling in a remote mountain of Mexico, he committed some "aparadha" to

the police chief of that small village, and therefore, he experienced jail

for few days, but he thought that his luck was due to his apparadha to that

guy.

An example that we never know when apparadha can be done. J

Best wishes

Natabara das

August 22, 2002

Dear Carol

I also published that Bush will win and I'll tell you how. <she takes a deep

breath and her Mars Mercury union overtake caution>

Bush is a kala sarpa yoga. When he began to seek the Republican nomination he

said "I will see if there is support for my making a run." He did not say "I

want it" "I should have it" or "I will be the best for it." He spoke as one

who has grown to work with the KSY...there was great support and the rest is

history. He also had the best transits. No, I was not a supporter, nor was I

a GOre supporter and I I believe I was detached enough to see the obvious in

the chart analysis. I am no Houck, but I do get my share of hits including

9-11 and the presidential election recount. And, I have used Lahiri. I'm

going to try Ernst's and see if I get even better results. Oh, I almost

forgot, Nalini named GWB as winner too!

Not kicking on you. Just have a a little too much caffeine this morning.

Oh, if y'all haven't gotten Ernst's books do so ASAP. These are the texts we

have been waiting for! I just wish they were around when I was a beginner.

The information is very organized and clear. If you know a beginner or an old

hand these are must reads.

c

-

Carolhook (AT) aol (DOT) com

gjlist

Wednesday, August 21, 2002 9:03 PM

Re: [GJ] My Ayanamsha

In a message dated 8/21/2002 1:11:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, curtisburns (AT) qwest (DOT) net writes:

MY preferred ayanamsha is Raman; I continue to test it against other values and

I do not find any line ups better than what I get with

Raman.Curtiswww.starworldnews.comAnd then there's Rick Houck! He formulated

his own ayanamsha and turned out to be one of the very few published

astrologers who accurately predicted G W Bush to win US presidency instead of

Gore.You know about recent discoveries in physics; it's been shown that the eye

of the observer scientist who expects a certain result, has a proved effect upon

the results themselves.Could this include expectations based upon firm belief in

a certain ayanamsha? "Balderdash!", says the majority...but what about Curtis,

what about Rick, what about Tarun? Different ayanamshas that they use could be

considered analogous to the glasses that a person wears who has not got 20-20

vision without specially corrected lenses, who sees what everyone else sees,

but through a glass brightly!Love to you all,CarolOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya;

Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the

August 22, 2002

Natabar,

Your analysis of my chart is too Hindu for me.

And I don't want you to discuss my chart before others

a'more please,

especially from Breton where you are, speaking of me, as you

are,

in the letter and tongue of oppression, now trying to

oppress me with

Hinduism, which I know as well of or better than thou, and

which I've served

more dearly than thou, or at least equally.

And I am only subject to all your Hindu based fears should I

choose to make them real to me, which nowadays, I do not as

I used to same, so I noticed you putting the "our guru" our

our our all over the game, say 'my' instead from now on

please, when tempted to with me group your sleeze.

Let me speak for myself regarding my allegiances, thanks. I

am not a "subject" to such a degree that others can say "oh

he is subject here, let us persuade using these names and

places"

There is much I wrote and deleted. Because of the year, I

must hold back the sword of my tongue.

Speak a'more on my chart publicly, and eventually, I will

not be able to your duplicity and diplomacy show more, as

indeed, I choose not to be diplomatic, and I therefore have

sent Mercury to some small amount of "rest" in this life for

me. I carry the napping Lugh inside. In his stead, the Druid

is wide awake.

I am feeling anger, because you are talking to others,

trying to gain support for your paradigm, and are acting as

if talking to me "Dear das and best wishes". This is

diplomacy only. I am no longer going to sit in rooms with

persons who speak to me from foreign preachers telling me

I'm bad. Sorry.

Peace, but you are not above me,

Roik

mc

A

||

_/||\_

||

v

August 25, 2002

Both you and Nalini accurately predicted Bush's win, (all political

preferences aside), and you used Lahiri, not Houck's ayanamsha.

This is good for us to continue wondering how astrologers using different

ayanamshas, may arrive to the same accurate conclusion!

Das said that less than a full degree off seems plausible. Curtis says we

do not have perfect knowledge, ever. Natabara quotes that faith sees a different

world entirely.

I'm most especially impressed with your prediction about the terrorist

attacks that would happen, Cynthia. You used the same Lahiri that others used,

but you saw what others did not see.

Hope you see many good days ahead, dear Cynthia! Thanks for your comments

about Ernst's books; a good reminder for me.

Love,

Carol

In a message dated 8/22/2002 11:45:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, c.a.novak (AT) worldnet (DOT) att.net writes: