Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma and Pa, Again!

[Guest guest]

It struct me now: The Vedic Zodiac, based in stars,

insensitive to, and thus needing adjustment to, the tilt of

the Earth which causes a new "perceived and moveable" Zodiac

to be around us always, the perceived Zodiac, the Western

Zodiac, where Matriarchy, the circle, ruled, the tilt, is a

circular wobble, causing seasons, changes, motion, movement,

precession backwards the Patriarchy feels, movement forward

the world feels.

 

What is an equinox? It's a perception, which happens at the

whim of the circular wobble, do you see?

 

Our "real" living life we perceive NOW is based on Western

Zodiac.

 

The karmic original powerful and dominant Zodiac is yet

another thing.

 

By the one we know our father, by the other, our mother.

 

This is very significant. Neither alone is complete.

 

The truth hurts, to those who are it's enemies.

 

By one half of reality alone you will not know your current

self, but only your self in relation to leaving this world

or staying in it, which may be not in your present reality,

which may be the mix, or gradual progress. Patriarchy is

perhaps, the dark night of the soul. For the night isn't

dark to those one with mothers dark half.

 

Some say, "Western is better for personality". This is a

dumbed-down-over-time way of saying what is perhaps quite

true, and better said as "Western shows you your position in

the current relative living world of perception with peer

humans", and Vedic shows you "You position in relationship

to the absolute and eternal non perceived reality".

 

These statements could of couse be improved finer, more

educated thinking.

 

I find this realization quite scientific, though such

support I'm not going into much here. I find this

realization quite significant because of science as well as

mystical reasons and rationale.

 

I am "tripping on" the play of these two halves of the

whole. I am trying these days to see the basic Hora

division, night and day, male and female, in things, so

excuse the focus there, it's my current study.

 

I do think, Western Zodiac is more "Mother" and Eastern,

Sidereal, more "Father". They spawn the likened two kinds of

ways of thinking- perilistic, ominous, verse malable,

mutable, relative to us now here. Water, is adjusting, more

related to mother, and there's more water up North. The

Earth is drier, harder, more deserts exist, where the Sun,

the Patriarchy, originates from and is still stronger today.

The wet and emotional "new age" movement does not arise in

Lahore, or Delhi, or Cairo, or Israel's old guard. No, it

arises in Wet Eugene, with little hippies in dreadlocks. I

have always been a child of the Green, the Water, the wet. I

have always taken to this stuff. The way Krishna is, so

covered with flowers, girlfriends, music, passion, cows,

love and abilities chivalrously splendid, is all very

Celtic, and wet, and covered with turns and twists, dirt

between toes, not straight roman roads. To "Preach" for

Krishna is just about a perfect oximoron. These splits of

the two halves living in me have split me in two, but that's

OK, it's all good learning.

 

The earliest authors of our time, Greek historians, wrote of

Celts "they are tall, very white and wet skinned".

 

Things are white and wet where there is no Sun (ie, ocean

bottom)

 

Celts do not digest fat properly, they need certain fish or

the oil from certain seeds, otherwise, they actually feel

bad. A developed genetic disposition to a certain diet,

showing certain karmic alignments for those with eyes.

 

And from where and whom do Celts trace their ancestry?

 

The Sun, one day, met the Moon, and after subjegating it,

retired in exaustion. The moon, not caring that it was

subjegated, such being it's normal state, cared for the Sun

while he slept.

 

 

 

 

 

Hope this is interesting. I think so.

 

By the way, according to most calculations, there was an

"alignment" around 300 AD say. This is a very key time in

history. I suggest everyone look into what was going on on

an emotional level for all of the Western world at that

time, all of Europe. Very very interesting. That was when

the great Patriarch fell out of control of the West, Europe

that is, and the "Natives" began again their old ways,

without Romans, but in the wake of their total dominance and

presence. It was a time when "Mother" got ahold again of all

her Western Children, without "Father" around, but all his

forts, roads, and systems were in place, never to again go

away. It was a balance point folks. Quite significant one.

You and I are literally living in the wake of those events

of those days. They were VERY Pivotal.

 

For example, that IS when Germany took over England. It did

happen. Germans took over, and to this day, that's who's

there, and that's who conquered India, and the world, the

British, are essentially predominantly Germanic people. The

Celts however did at that time gain and have remained since,

confined in a way to the Western edges, in all ways,

cultural, blood, art, etc. That is when Saxxons and Celts

began to really intermingle heavily, for better or worse, in

Europe, and they worked out their stuff slowly to this day.

They are the two halves of the West, the brethren of magic,

the Celts, and the brethren of control, the Saxxons. They

are the male and female half of the West whereas India and

other are the male and female halves of the east perhaps. I

am trying to see this broad divisions at this time, it's

generalization, but it's helpful for understanding basic

directional impulses in ourselves always.

 

It is VERY significant what happened when the two zodiacs

aligned. Study it. VERY interesting. I'm hinting at a

possible ocean of understanding for us here, I think, maybe?

 

Note that Germany hit the Celts "From the East". Note that

Ireland, the most protected by distance, a sanctuary, was

the least and last hit, and the last to hold a strong

ancient blood line and culture which shows how Eastern the

West used to be, how Matriarchal, how mystical, how

feminine, which is why the dominant masculine cultures

letters, musical systems, thought systems, dominate here

today, because we were actually originally too weak, too

feminine, and both the Germans and Romans could have there

ways with us, so Rome jumped in, and Germany took it later,

showing that Rome had the Mars, of the two, and Germany the

Saturn, of the two, who are both otherwise dominant and

strong in nature originally, or solar.

 

Of the two Irelands, Scotland and Ireland, Scotland is more

dominant, and thus, we see, Hilly, whereas Ireland is flat

to the point of ridiculed and jest. Do you see the omens?

They teach, instruct, they are real.

 

In America, thousands of years ago, a Native stood on the

shore in Washington state, and looked out across the

Pacific, and saw thus: Over there, in the East, they have

huge palaces and highly organized religious and materially

successful societies, but they are all part of, and

development of personal strengths and virtues, relationship

with mother Earth, are less. Conformity is more. Down South

of me, our brothers, also are like that, they build alot, in

square arrangements, and they have centralization thus,

whereas here in the North, we do not. We struggle more with

nature, and know her better, for we must work with her, and

always have. But a new time has come, after so long, the two

halves will now meet. Something that is happening now

starting as always in the East, will soon reach us here in

the West, and for a long time, it shall have to be sorted

out in all of us, the contact, the balance, the aligning of

the two halves of ourselves, the circle, and square, mother,

father, male, female, dominating, dominated.

 

Likewise, Druids in France studied the phenom, and saw it

coming, and predicted what has happened, and is happening.

 

We have realized: We came from father, but we are on

mother, and on her we depend. Father continues to provide,

but mother is our home, the breast we suckle. We have both

sides in ourselves, and must honor both. We must straighten

our matters each day, and then mix them up again, when the

Sun sets. Brush and clean your hair, then tie it in knots

with sticks and other things mixed in. Know your blade, and

put it away. Count your money, and forget about it.

 

BOTH.

 

 

 

--

 

 

Das Goravani

Roik

the mutable

[Guest guest]

All -

 

Here! Here! Master Goravani!

 

I am merely an amateur in this field - though a fairly well-studied one, but

I have LONG believed

that it was the combination of the two or three zodiacal systems which gave

the "true" picture

of one's life. It has been apparent from my first exposure to "horoscopes"

that there was no way

that there are only TWELVE types of people. All three of these systems

divide the zodiac into

twelve. The Hindu "vedic" and Western systems, both by Month; the Chinese

system by Year.

 

A good many years ago, I came across a book which combined the Western and

Chinese zodiacs

resulting in combinations (i.e. - Dog/Aires, Tiger/Virgo, etc.) totaling

144. Still, this is somewhat

limiting - though by my observations, a good deal more accurate than either

one alone. About 6 years

ago, I discovered the Vedic system through Goravani Jyotish. And while I

can't say that people are

divided into types, per se, the READ one gets from the Vedic system does

somewhat classify people

into groups with similar characteristics. Now, we have 1728 different

"types". On that alone, we have

a clearer picture of an individuals tendancies.

 

But, the Vedic system goes beyond that... Whereas, both the Chinese and

Western horoscopes

tend to give insight into .. "attitude" - the Vedic system gives insight

into "events" - surprisingly

accurately. I will confess, that I personally do not believe that our lives

are completely "fated" or

"predetermined" - I DO believe that we are guided to some extent. There

would be no purpose to life

if this were true! This would mean that heroes and murderers alike had no

more to do with their own

actions than does a stone. There would be no reason to punish criminals -

after all, it's not THEIR

choice to do their crimes. What I DO believe is that the choices we are

faced with are given to us

ahead of time. And I think that the voice which guides the "seers" who

practice astrology (Vedic,

Western, Chinese or otherwise) are themselves guided by the choices we as

individuals make. That

is to say, the seers see the choices left to us created by our own actions.

 

Mr Goravani - I like the Mother/Father thing... It fits well with my own

philosophy...

 

Best Regards,

Martin Michaels

 

Das Goravani []

Monday, September 02, 2002 12:55 PM

gjlist

[GJ] Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma and Pa, Again!

 

It struct me now: The Vedic Zodiac, based in stars,

insensitive to, and thus needing adjustment to, the tilt of

the Earth which causes a new "perceived and moveable" Zodiac

to be around us always, the perceived Zodiac, the Western

Zodiac, where Matriarchy, the circle, ruled, the tilt, is a

circular wobble, causing seasons, changes, motion, movement,

precession backwards the Patriarchy feels, movement forward

the world feels.

 

What is an equinox? It's a perception, which happens at the

whim of the circular wobble, do you see?

 

Our "real" living life we perceive NOW is based on Western

Zodiac.

 

The karmic original powerful and dominant Zodiac is yet

another thing.

 

By the one we know our father, by the other, our mother.

 

This is very significant. Neither alone is complete.

 

The truth hurts, to those who are it's enemies.

 

By one half of reality alone you will not know your current

self, but only your self in relation to leaving this world

or staying in it, which may be not in your present reality,

which may be the mix, or gradual progress. Patriarchy is

perhaps, the dark night of the soul. For the night isn't

dark to those one with mothers dark half.

 

Some say, "Western is better for personality". This is a

dumbed-down-over-time way of saying what is perhaps quite

true, and better said as "Western shows you your position in

the current relative living world of perception with peer

humans", and Vedic shows you "You position in relationship

to the absolute and eternal non perceived reality".

 

These statements could of couse be improved finer, more

educated thinking.

 

I find this realization quite scientific, though such

support I'm not going into much here. I find this

realization quite significant because of science as well as

mystical reasons and rationale.

 

I am "tripping on" the play of these two halves of the

whole. I am trying these days to see the basic Hora

division, night and day, male and female, in things, so

excuse the focus there, it's my current study.

 

I do think, Western Zodiac is more "Mother" and Eastern,

Sidereal, more "Father". They spawn the likened two kinds of

ways of thinking- perilistic, ominous, verse malable,

mutable, relative to us now here. Water, is adjusting, more

related to mother, and there's more water up North. The

Earth is drier, harder, more deserts exist, where the Sun,

the Patriarchy, originates from and is still stronger today.

The wet and emotional "new age" movement does not arise in

Lahore, or Delhi, or Cairo, or Israel's old guard. No, it

arises in Wet Eugene, with little hippies in dreadlocks. I

have always been a child of the Green, the Water, the wet. I

have always taken to this stuff. The way Krishna is, so

covered with flowers, girlfriends, music, passion, cows,

love and abilities chivalrously splendid, is all very

Celtic, and wet, and covered with turns and twists, dirt

between toes, not straight roman roads. To "Preach" for

Krishna is just about a perfect oximoron. These splits of

the two halves living in me have split me in two, but that's

OK, it's all good learning.

 

The earliest authors of our time, Greek historians, wrote of

Celts "they are tall, very white and wet skinned".

 

Things are white and wet where there is no Sun (ie, ocean

bottom)

 

Celts do not digest fat properly, they need certain fish or

the oil from certain seeds, otherwise, they actually feel

bad. A developed genetic disposition to a certain diet,

showing certain karmic alignments for those with eyes.

 

And from where and whom do Celts trace their ancestry?

 

The Sun, one day, met the Moon, and after subjegating it,

retired in exaustion. The moon, not caring that it was

subjegated, such being it's normal state, cared for the Sun

while he slept.

 

 

 

 

 

Hope this is interesting. I think so.

 

By the way, according to most calculations, there was an

"alignment" around 300 AD say. This is a very key time in

history. I suggest everyone look into what was going on on

an emotional level for all of the Western world at that

time, all of Europe. Very very interesting. That was when

the great Patriarch fell out of control of the West, Europe

that is, and the "Natives" began again their old ways,

without Romans, but in the wake of their total dominance and

presence. It was a time when "Mother" got ahold again of all

her Western Children, without "Father" around, but all his

forts, roads, and systems were in place, never to again go

away. It was a balance point folks. Quite significant one.

You and I are literally living in the wake of those events

of those days. They were VERY Pivotal.

 

For example, that IS when Germany took over England. It did

happen. Germans took over, and to this day, that's who's

there, and that's who conquered India, and the world, the

British, are essentially predominantly Germanic people. The

Celts however did at that time gain and have remained since,

confined in a way to the Western edges, in all ways,

cultural, blood, art, etc. That is when Saxxons and Celts

began to really intermingle heavily, for better or worse, in

Europe, and they worked out their stuff slowly to this day.

They are the two halves of the West, the brethren of magic,

the Celts, and the brethren of control, the Saxxons. They

are the male and female half of the West whereas India and

other are the male and female halves of the east perhaps. I

am trying to see this broad divisions at this time, it's

generalization, but it's helpful for understanding basic

directional impulses in ourselves always.

 

It is VERY significant what happened when the two zodiacs

aligned. Study it. VERY interesting. I'm hinting at a

possible ocean of understanding for us here, I think, maybe?

 

Note that Germany hit the Celts "From the East". Note that

Ireland, the most protected by distance, a sanctuary, was

the least and last hit, and the last to hold a strong

ancient blood line and culture which shows how Eastern the

West used to be, how Matriarchal, how mystical, how

feminine, which is why the dominant masculine cultures

letters, musical systems, thought systems, dominate here

today, because we were actually originally too weak, too

feminine, and both the Germans and Romans could have there

ways with us, so Rome jumped in, and Germany took it later,

showing that Rome had the Mars, of the two, and Germany the

Saturn, of the two, who are both otherwise dominant and

strong in nature originally, or solar.

 

Of the two Irelands, Scotland and Ireland, Scotland is more

dominant, and thus, we see, Hilly, whereas Ireland is flat

to the point of ridiculed and jest. Do you see the omens?

They teach, instruct, they are real.

 

In America, thousands of years ago, a Native stood on the

shore in Washington state, and looked out across the

Pacific, and saw thus: Over there, in the East, they have

huge palaces and highly organized religious and materially

successful societies, but they are all part of, and

development of personal strengths and virtues, relationship

with mother Earth, are less. Conformity is more. Down South

of me, our brothers, also are like that, they build alot, in

square arrangements, and they have centralization thus,

whereas here in the North, we do not. We struggle more with

nature, and know her better, for we must work with her, and

always have. But a new time has come, after so long, the two

halves will now meet. Something that is happening now

starting as always in the East, will soon reach us here in

the West, and for a long time, it shall have to be sorted

out in all of us, the contact, the balance, the aligning of

the two halves of ourselves, the circle, and square, mother,

father, male, female, dominating, dominated.

 

Likewise, Druids in France studied the phenom, and saw it

coming, and predicted what has happened, and is happening.

 

We have realized: We came from father, but we are on

mother, and on her we depend. Father continues to provide,

but mother is our home, the breast we suckle. We have both

sides in ourselves, and must honor both. We must straighten

our matters each day, and then mix them up again, when the

Sun sets. Brush and clean your hair, then tie it in knots

with sticks and other things mixed in. Know your blade, and

put it away. Count your money, and forget about it.

 

BOTH.

--

Das Goravani

Roik

the mutable

[Guest guest]

Appended is the post borrowed from another egroup:

 

----------------

On the calendar issue, I feel the word "tropical

zodiac" is a misnomer. Tropical (i.e., seasonal)

calendar originated in Greece is a primitive notion of

keeping track of days wrt seasons only. Hence

primitive notions such as "zodiac" moves, and so on.

Even in modern astronomy, or Inertial reference

frames, these notions are JOKES, but the primitive

MacCaulay west clings to its Greek wisdom. Let it be

so, we need not even address it...Just ignore it as

some child's prank...

 

There is only one zodiac.

 

Zodiac, i.e., stars in the sky are "relatively" fixed

wrt earth and aaditya mandala. That it is the other

way around is the Ptolemy mind of Greece. We must use

this "fixed" star base as the definition of the term

"zodiac". Then the misnomer goes away. The Greek &

western error is to see the seasonal framework as

"fixed".

 

-------------------

 

 

 

gjlist, Das Goravani <das@g...> wrote:

>

>

>

> It struct me now: The Vedic Zodiac, based in stars,

 

> insensitive to, and thus needing adjustment to, the

tilt of

> the Earth which causes a new "perceived and

moveable" Zodiac

> to be around us always, the perceived Zodiac, the

Western

> Zodiac, where Matriarchy, the circle, ruled, the

tilt, is a

> circular wobble, causing seasons, changes, motion,

movement,

> precession backwards the Patriarchy feels, movement

forward

> the world feels.

>

> What is an equinox? It's a perception, which

happens at the

> whim of the circular wobble, do you see?

>

> Our "real" living life we perceive NOW is based on

Western

> Zodiac.

>

> The karmic original powerful and dominant Zodiac is

yet

> another thing.

>

> By the one we know our father, by the other, our

mother.

>

> This is very significant. Neither alone is complete.

>

> The truth hurts, to those who are it's enemies.

>

> By one half of reality alone you will not know your

current

> self, but only your self in relation to leaving this

world

> or staying in it, which may be not in your present

reality,

> which may be the mix, or gradual progress.

Patriarchy is

> perhaps, the dark night of the soul. For the night

isn't

> dark to those one with mothers dark half.

>

> Some say, "Western is better for personality". This

is a

> dumbed-down-over-time way of saying what is perhaps

quite

> true, and better said as "Western shows you your

position in

> the current relative living world of perception with

peer

> humans", and Vedic shows you "You position in

relationship

> to the absolute and eternal non perceived reality".

>

> These statements could of couse be improved finer,

more

> educated thinking.

>

> I find this realization quite scientific, though

such

> support I'm not going into much here. I find this

> realization quite significant because of science as

well as

> mystical reasons and rationale.

>

> I am "tripping on" the play of these two halves of

the

> whole. I am trying these days to see the basic Hora

> division, night and day, male and female, in things,

so

> excuse the focus there, it's my current study.

>

> I do think, Western Zodiac is more "Mother" and

Eastern,

> Sidereal, more "Father". They spawn the likened two

kinds of

> ways of thinking- perilistic, ominous, verse

malable,

> mutable, relative to us now here. Water, is

adjusting, more

> related to mother, and there's more water up North.

The

> Earth is drier, harder, more deserts exist, where

the Sun,

> the Patriarchy, originates from and is still

stronger today.

> The wet and emotional "new age" movement does not

arise in

> Lahore, or Delhi, or Cairo, or Israel's old guard.

No, it

> arises in Wet Eugene, with little hippies in

dreadlocks. I

> have always been a child of the Green, the Water,

the wet. I

> have always taken to this stuff. The way Krishna is,

so

> covered with flowers, girlfriends, music, passion,

cows,

> love and abilities chivalrously splendid, is all

very

> Celtic, and wet, and covered with turns and twists,

dirt

> between toes, not straight roman roads. To "Preach"

for

> Krishna is just about a perfect oximoron. These

splits of

> the two halves living in me have split me in two,

but that's

> OK, it's all good learning.

>

> The earliest authors of our time, Greek historians,

wrote of

> Celts "they are tall, very white and wet skinned".

>

> Things are white and wet where there is no Sun (ie,

ocean

> bottom)

>

> Celts do not digest fat properly, they need certain

fish or

> the oil from certain seeds, otherwise, they actually

feel

> bad. A developed genetic disposition to a certain

diet,

> showing certain karmic alignments for those with

eyes.

>

> And from where and whom do Celts trace their

ancestry?

>

> The Sun, one day, met the Moon, and after

subjegating it,

> retired in exaustion. The moon, not caring that it

was

> subjegated, such being it's normal state, cared for

the Sun

> while he slept.

>

>

>

>

>

> Hope this is interesting. I think so.

>

> By the way, according to most calculations, there

was an

> "alignment" around 300 AD say. This is a very key

time in

> history. I suggest everyone look into what was going

on on

> an emotional level for all of the Western world at

that

> time, all of Europe. Very very interesting. That was

when

> the great Patriarch fell out of control of the West,

Europe

> that is, and the "Natives" began again their old

ways,

> without Romans, but in the wake of their total

dominance and

> presence. It was a time when "Mother" got ahold

again of all

> her Western Children, without "Father" around, but

all his

> forts, roads, and systems were in place, never to

again go

> away. It was a balance point folks. Quite

significant one.

> You and I are literally living in the wake of those

events

> of those days. They were VERY Pivotal.

>

> For example, that IS when Germany took over England.

It did

> happen. Germans took over, and to this day, that's

who's

> there, and that's who conquered India, and the

world, the

> British, are essentially predominantly Germanic

people. The

> Celts however did at that time gain and have

remained since,

> confined in a way to the Western edges, in all ways,

 

> cultural, blood, art, etc. That is when Saxxons and

Celts

> began to really intermingle heavily, for better or

worse, in

> Europe, and they worked out their stuff slowly to

this day.

> They are the two halves of the West, the brethren of

magic,

> the Celts, and the brethren of control, the Saxxons.

They

> are the male and female half of the West whereas

India and

> other are the male and female halves of the east

perhaps. I

> am trying to see this broad divisions at this time,

it's

> generalization, but it's helpful for understanding

basic

> directional impulses in ourselves always.

>

> It is VERY significant what happened when the two

zodiacs

> aligned. Study it. VERY interesting. I'm hinting at

a

> possible ocean of understanding for us here, I

think, maybe?

>

> Note that Germany hit the Celts "From the East".

Note that

> Ireland, the most protected by distance, a

sanctuary, was

> the least and last hit, and the last to hold a

strong

> ancient blood line and culture which shows how

Eastern the

> West used to be, how Matriarchal, how mystical, how

> feminine, which is why the dominant masculine

cultures

> letters, musical systems, thought systems, dominate

here

> today, because we were actually originally too weak,

too

> feminine, and both the Germans and Romans could have

there

> ways with us, so Rome jumped in, and Germany took it

later,

> showing that Rome had the Mars, of the two, and

Germany the

> Saturn, of the two, who are both otherwise dominant

and

> strong in nature originally, or solar.

>

> Of the two Irelands, Scotland and Ireland, Scotland

is more

> dominant, and thus, we see, Hilly, whereas Ireland

is flat

> to the point of ridiculed and jest. Do you see the

omens?

> They teach, instruct, they are real.

>

> In America, thousands of years ago, a Native stood

on the

> shore in Washington state, and looked out across the

 

> Pacific, and saw thus: Over there, in the East,

they have

> huge palaces and highly organized religious and

materially

> successful societies, but they are all part of, and

> development of personal strengths and virtues,

relationship

> with mother Earth, are less. Conformity is more.

Down South

> of me, our brothers, also are like that, they build

alot, in

> square arrangements, and they have centralization

thus,

> whereas here in the North, we do not. We struggle

more with

> nature, and know her better, for we must work with

her, and

> always have. But a new time has come, after so long,

the two

> halves will now meet. Something that is happening

now

> starting as always in the East, will soon reach us

here in

> the West, and for a long time, it shall have to be

sorted

> out in all of us, the contact, the balance, the

aligning of

> the two halves of ourselves, the circle, and square,

mother,

> father, male, female, dominating, dominated.

>

> Likewise, Druids in France studied the phenom, and

saw it

> coming, and predicted what has happened, and is

happening.

>

> We have realized: We came from father, but we are

on

> mother, and on her we depend. Father continues to

provide,

> but mother is our home, the breast we suckle. We

have both

> sides in ourselves, and must honor both. We must

straighten

> our matters each day, and then mix them up again,

when the

> Sun sets. Brush and clean your hair, then tie it in

knots

> with sticks and other things mixed in. Know your

blade, and

> put it away. Count your money, and forget about it.

>

> BOTH.

>

>

>

> --

>

>

> Das Goravani

> Roik

 

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

http://finance.

[Guest guest]

With all due respect, Sir:

 

I believe it is foolish to ignore the viewpoint of others, though

that viewpoint may seem to be misguided in your eyes. I study

martial arts - these days concentrating on Aikido. But there was a

time when I studied only Tae Kwon Do; later it was Hapkido; and so on...

Too often, we close our minds to the wisdom of others in the mistaken

belief that the way WE learned is the only correct way. Each of the

above martial arts has it's own philosophy and approach - it's own

viewpoint.

 

As I mentioned yesterday, I find that each other Zodiacal systems

has a different viewpoint, and hence, shows different aspects of our

"destiny". And I should point out also that as scientists have proven

in recent years, the galaxy IS, in fact, CHANGING - the stars themselves,

the Zodiac is changing - albeit slowly...just one more lesson on the

falseness of "absolutes"...

 

Best Regards,

Martin Michaels

 

 

Venkateswara Reddy [venkateshwara_reddy]

Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:37 PM

gjlist

Cc: vedic astrology

[GJ] RE: Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma and Pa, Again!

 

 

 

 

Appended is the post borrowed from another egroup:

 

----------------

On the calendar issue, I feel the word "tropical

zodiac" is a misnomer. Tropical (i.e., seasonal)

calendar originated in Greece is a primitive notion of

keeping track of days wrt seasons only. Hence

primitive notions such as "zodiac" moves, and so on.

Even in modern astronomy, or Inertial reference

frames, these notions are JOKES, but the primitive

MacCaulay west clings to its Greek wisdom. Let it be

so, we need not even address it...Just ignore it as

some child's prank...

 

There is only one zodiac.

 

Zodiac, i.e., stars in the sky are "relatively" fixed

wrt earth and aaditya mandala. That it is the other

way around is the Ptolemy mind of Greece. We must use

this "fixed" star base as the definition of the term

"zodiac". Then the misnomer goes away. The Greek &

western error is to see the seasonal framework as

"fixed".

 

-------------------

 

 

 

gjlist, Das Goravani <das@g...> wrote:

>

>

>

> It struct me now: The Vedic Zodiac, based in stars,

 

> insensitive to, and thus needing adjustment to, the

tilt of

> the Earth which causes a new "perceived and

moveable" Zodiac

> to be around us always, the perceived Zodiac, the

Western

> Zodiac, where Matriarchy, the circle, ruled, the

tilt, is a

> circular wobble, causing seasons, changes, motion,

movement,

> precession backwards the Patriarchy feels, movement

forward

> the world feels.

>

> What is an equinox? It's a perception, which

happens at the

> whim of the circular wobble, do you see?

>

> Our "real" living life we perceive NOW is based on

Western

> Zodiac.

>

> The karmic original powerful and dominant Zodiac is

yet

> another thing.

>

> By the one we know our father, by the other, our

mother.

>

> This is very significant. Neither alone is complete.

>

> The truth hurts, to those who are it's enemies.

>

> By one half of reality alone you will not know your

current

> self, but only your self in relation to leaving this

world

> or staying in it, which may be not in your present

reality,

> which may be the mix, or gradual progress.

Patriarchy is

> perhaps, the dark night of the soul. For the night

isn't

> dark to those one with mothers dark half.

>

> Some say, "Western is better for personality". This

is a

> dumbed-down-over-time way of saying what is perhaps

quite

> true, and better said as "Western shows you your

position in

> the current relative living world of perception with

peer

> humans", and Vedic shows you "You position in

relationship

> to the absolute and eternal non perceived reality".

>

> These statements could of couse be improved finer,

more

> educated thinking.

>

> I find this realization quite scientific, though

such

> support I'm not going into much here. I find this

> realization quite significant because of science as

well as

> mystical reasons and rationale.

>

> I am "tripping on" the play of these two halves of

the

> whole. I am trying these days to see the basic Hora

> division, night and day, male and female, in things,

so

> excuse the focus there, it's my current study.

>

> I do think, Western Zodiac is more "Mother" and

Eastern,

> Sidereal, more "Father". They spawn the likened two

kinds of

> ways of thinking- perilistic, ominous, verse

malable,

> mutable, relative to us now here. Water, is

adjusting, more

> related to mother, and there's more water up North.

The

> Earth is drier, harder, more deserts exist, where

the Sun,

> the Patriarchy, originates from and is still

stronger today.

> The wet and emotional "new age" movement does not

arise in

> Lahore, or Delhi, or Cairo, or Israel's old guard.

No, it

> arises in Wet Eugene, with little hippies in

dreadlocks. I

> have always been a child of the Green, the Water,

the wet. I

> have always taken to this stuff. The way Krishna is,

so

> covered with flowers, girlfriends, music, passion,

cows,

> love and abilities chivalrously splendid, is all

very

> Celtic, and wet, and covered with turns and twists,

dirt

> between toes, not straight roman roads. To "Preach"

for

> Krishna is just about a perfect oximoron. These

splits of

> the two halves living in me have split me in two,

but that's

> OK, it's all good learning.

>

> The earliest authors of our time, Greek historians,

wrote of

> Celts "they are tall, very white and wet skinned".

>

> Things are white and wet where there is no Sun (ie,

ocean

> bottom)

>

> Celts do not digest fat properly, they need certain

fish or

> the oil from certain seeds, otherwise, they actually

feel

> bad. A developed genetic disposition to a certain

diet,

> showing certain karmic alignments for those with

eyes.

>

> And from where and whom do Celts trace their

ancestry?

>

> The Sun, one day, met the Moon, and after

subjegating it,

> retired in exaustion. The moon, not caring that it

was

> subjegated, such being it's normal state, cared for

the Sun

> while he slept.

>

>

>

>

>

> Hope this is interesting. I think so.

>

> By the way, according to most calculations, there

was an

> "alignment" around 300 AD say. This is a very key

time in

> history. I suggest everyone look into what was going

on on

> an emotional level for all of the Western world at

that

> time, all of Europe. Very very interesting. That was

when

> the great Patriarch fell out of control of the West,

Europe

> that is, and the "Natives" began again their old

ways,

> without Romans, but in the wake of their total

dominance and

> presence. It was a time when "Mother" got ahold

again of all

> her Western Children, without "Father" around, but

all his

> forts, roads, and systems were in place, never to

again go

> away. It was a balance point folks. Quite

significant one.

> You and I are literally living in the wake of those

events

> of those days. They were VERY Pivotal.

>

> For example, that IS when Germany took over England.

It did

> happen. Germans took over, and to this day, that's

who's

> there, and that's who conquered India, and the

world, the

> British, are essentially predominantly Germanic

people. The

> Celts however did at that time gain and have

remained since,

> confined in a way to the Western edges, in all ways,

 

> cultural, blood, art, etc. That is when Saxxons and

Celts

> began to really intermingle heavily, for better or

worse, in

> Europe, and they worked out their stuff slowly to

this day.

> They are the two halves of the West, the brethren of

magic,

> the Celts, and the brethren of control, the Saxxons.

They

> are the male and female half of the West whereas

India and

> other are the male and female halves of the east

perhaps. I

> am trying to see this broad divisions at this time,

it's

> generalization, but it's helpful for understanding

basic

> directional impulses in ourselves always.

>

> It is VERY significant what happened when the two

zodiacs

> aligned. Study it. VERY interesting. I'm hinting at

a

> possible ocean of understanding for us here, I

think, maybe?

>

> Note that Germany hit the Celts "From the East".

Note that

> Ireland, the most protected by distance, a

sanctuary, was

> the least and last hit, and the last to hold a

strong

> ancient blood line and culture which shows how

Eastern the

> West used to be, how Matriarchal, how mystical, how

> feminine, which is why the dominant masculine

cultures

> letters, musical systems, thought systems, dominate

here

> today, because we were actually originally too weak,

too

> feminine, and both the Germans and Romans could have

there

> ways with us, so Rome jumped in, and Germany took it

later,

> showing that Rome had the Mars, of the two, and

Germany the

> Saturn, of the two, who are both otherwise dominant

and

> strong in nature originally, or solar.

>

> Of the two Irelands, Scotland and Ireland, Scotland

is more

> dominant, and thus, we see, Hilly, whereas Ireland

is flat

> to the point of ridiculed and jest. Do you see the

omens?

> They teach, instruct, they are real.

>

> In America, thousands of years ago, a Native stood

on the

> shore in Washington state, and looked out across the

 

> Pacific, and saw thus: Over there, in the East,

they have

> huge palaces and highly organized religious and

materially

> successful societies, but they are all part of, and

> development of personal strengths and virtues,

relationship

> with mother Earth, are less. Conformity is more.

Down South

> of me, our brothers, also are like that, they build

alot, in

> square arrangements, and they have centralization

thus,

> whereas here in the North, we do not. We struggle

more with

> nature, and know her better, for we must work with

her, and

> always have. But a new time has come, after so long,

the two

> halves will now meet. Something that is happening

now

> starting as always in the East, will soon reach us

here in

> the West, and for a long time, it shall have to be

sorted

> out in all of us, the contact, the balance, the

aligning of

> the two halves of ourselves, the circle, and square,

mother,

> father, male, female, dominating, dominated.

>

> Likewise, Druids in France studied the phenom, and

saw it

> coming, and predicted what has happened, and is

happening.

>

> We have realized: We came from father, but we are

on

> mother, and on her we depend. Father continues to

provide,

> but mother is our home, the breast we suckle. We

have both

> sides in ourselves, and must honor both. We must

straighten

> our matters each day, and then mix them up again,

when the

> Sun sets. Brush and clean your hair, then tie it in

knots

> with sticks and other things mixed in. Know your

blade, and

> put it away. Count your money, and forget about it.

>

> BOTH.

>

>

>

> --

>

>

> Das Goravani

> Roik

 

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

http://finance.

 

 

 

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

: gjlist-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

> As I mentioned yesterday, I find that each other Zodiacal systems

> has a different viewpoint, and hence, shows different aspects of

our

> "destiny". And I should point out also that as scientists have

proven

> in recent years, the galaxy IS, in fact, CHANGING - the stars

 

 

Dont you see the word "relatively" fixed wrt earth and solar system

in the post I appended on yesterday.

 

Well, Vedic Cosomology declares that the universe(brahmaanda) is

dynamic and is spinning around immobile axis(hiranyagarbha). One spin

of our universe is called parivatsara.

 

Temples were built on this very universe model(vyakta and avyakta

universe).

 

Our solar system, galaxy, galaxy cluster, super galaxy, galaxy super

clusters are spinning and also orbiting around higher centre, as per

Vedic Cosmology. For those geo-centric guys, seasonal calender become

tropical zodiac, and it moves. Ah.

 

 

Solar system also spinning? How much time it take for one spin? Do

these so called scientists measure this, other than providing some

scanty figure.

 

 

The question here, geo-centric vs helio/galaxy/hiranyagarbha centric

issur. Without this, we will end up in so called STATIC universe,

thus bigbang singulary to expanding universe.

 

 

Well, these constellations of stars are also part of some of the

galaxy clusters? What are they?.

 

This question leads to so called precession issues?

 

What is the tropical precession of equinoxes? What is the sidereal

precession of equinoxes? What are the measurements. Why dont these SO

CALLED people in these lists probe sidereal, tropical durations of

various cycles in this universe(day, year, axis precession, orbital

precession, various ahOrAtri-s, varSa-s).

 

Who is FOOLISH.

 

 

Regards,

VR

 

themselves,

> the Zodiac is changing - albeit slowly...just one more lesson on

the

> falseness of "absolutes"...

>

> Best Regards,

> Martin Michaels

>

>

> Venkateswara Reddy [venkateshwara_reddy]

> Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:37 PM

> gjlist

> Cc: vedic astrology

> [GJ] RE: Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma and Pa, Again!

>

>

>

>

> Appended is the post borrowed from another egroup:

>

> ----------------

> On the calendar issue, I feel the word "tropical

> zodiac" is a misnomer. Tropical (i.e., seasonal)

> calendar originated in Greece is a primitive notion of

> keeping track of days wrt seasons only. Hence

> primitive notions such as "zodiac" moves, and so on.

> Even in modern astronomy, or Inertial reference

> frames, these notions are JOKES, but the primitive

> MacCaulay west clings to its Greek wisdom. Let it be

> so, we need not even address it...Just ignore it as

> some child's prank...

>

> There is only one zodiac.

>

> Zodiac, i.e., stars in the sky are "relatively" fixed

> wrt earth and aaditya mandala. That it is the other

> way around is the Ptolemy mind of Greece. We must use

> this "fixed" star base as the definition of the term

> "zodiac". Then the misnomer goes away. The Greek &

> western error is to see the seasonal framework as

> "fixed".

>

> -------------------

>

>

>

> gjlist, Das Goravani <das@g...> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > It struct me now: The Vedic Zodiac, based in stars,

>

> > insensitive to, and thus needing adjustment to, the

> tilt of

> > the Earth which causes a new "perceived and

> moveable" Zodiac

> > to be around us always, the perceived Zodiac, the

> Western

> > Zodiac, where Matriarchy, the circle, ruled, the

> tilt, is a

> > circular wobble, causing seasons, changes, motion,

> movement,

> > precession backwards the Patriarchy feels, movement

> forward

> > the world feels.

> >

> > What is an equinox? It's a perception, which

> happens at the

> > whim of the circular wobble, do you see?

> >

> > Our "real" living life we perceive NOW is based on

> Western

> > Zodiac.

> >

> > The karmic original powerful and dominant Zodiac is

> yet

> > another thing.

> >

> > By the one we know our father, by the other, our

> mother.

> >

> > This is very significant. Neither alone is complete.

> >

> > The truth hurts, to those who are it's enemies.

> >

> > By one half of reality alone you will not know your

> current

> > self, but only your self in relation to leaving this

> world

> > or staying in it, which may be not in your present

> reality,

> > which may be the mix, or gradual progress.

> Patriarchy is

> > perhaps, the dark night of the soul. For the night

> isn't

> > dark to those one with mothers dark half.

> >

> > Some say, "Western is better for personality". This

> is a

> > dumbed-down-over-time way of saying what is perhaps

> quite

> > true, and better said as "Western shows you your

> position in

> > the current relative living world of perception with

> peer

> > humans", and Vedic shows you "You position in

> relationship

> > to the absolute and eternal non perceived reality".

> >

> > These statements could of couse be improved finer,

> more

> > educated thinking.

> >

> > I find this realization quite scientific, though

> such

> > support I'm not going into much here. I find this

> > realization quite significant because of science as

> well as

> > mystical reasons and rationale.

> >

> > I am "tripping on" the play of these two halves of

> the

> > whole. I am trying these days to see the basic Hora

> > division, night and day, male and female, in things,

> so

> > excuse the focus there, it's my current study.

> >

> > I do think, Western Zodiac is more "Mother" and

> Eastern,

> > Sidereal, more "Father". They spawn the likened two

> kinds of

> > ways of thinking- perilistic, ominous, verse

> malable,

> > mutable, relative to us now here. Water, is

> adjusting, more

> > related to mother, and there's more water up North.

> The

> > Earth is drier, harder, more deserts exist, where

> the Sun,

> > the Patriarchy, originates from and is still

> stronger today.

> > The wet and emotional "new age" movement does not

> arise in

> > Lahore, or Delhi, or Cairo, or Israel's old guard.

> No, it

> > arises in Wet Eugene, with little hippies in

> dreadlocks. I

> > have always been a child of the Green, the Water,

> the wet. I

> > have always taken to this stuff. The way Krishna is,

> so

> > covered with flowers, girlfriends, music, passion,

> cows,

> > love and abilities chivalrously splendid, is all

> very

> > Celtic, and wet, and covered with turns and twists,

> dirt

> > between toes, not straight roman roads. To "Preach"

> for

> > Krishna is just about a perfect oximoron. These

> splits of

> > the two halves living in me have split me in two,

> but that's

> > OK, it's all good learning.

> >

> > The earliest authors of our time, Greek historians,

> wrote of

> > Celts "they are tall, very white and wet skinned".

> >

> > Things are white and wet where there is no Sun (ie,

> ocean

> > bottom)

> >

> > Celts do not digest fat properly, they need certain

> fish or

> > the oil from certain seeds, otherwise, they actually

> feel

> > bad. A developed genetic disposition to a certain

> diet,

> > showing certain karmic alignments for those with

> eyes.

> >

> > And from where and whom do Celts trace their

> ancestry?

> >

> > The Sun, one day, met the Moon, and after

> subjegating it,

> > retired in exaustion. The moon, not caring that it

> was

> > subjegated, such being it's normal state, cared for

> the Sun

> > while he slept.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hope this is interesting. I think so.

> >

> > By the way, according to most calculations, there

> was an

> > "alignment" around 300 AD say. This is a very key

> time in

> > history. I suggest everyone look into what was going

> on on

> > an emotional level for all of the Western world at

> that

> > time, all of Europe. Very very interesting. That was

> when

> > the great Patriarch fell out of control of the West,

> Europe

> > that is, and the "Natives" began again their old

> ways,

> > without Romans, but in the wake of their total

> dominance and

> > presence. It was a time when "Mother" got ahold

> again of all

> > her Western Children, without "Father" around, but

> all his

> > forts, roads, and systems were in place, never to

> again go

> > away. It was a balance point folks. Quite

> significant one.

> > You and I are literally living in the wake of those

> events

> > of those days. They were VERY Pivotal.

> >

> > For example, that IS when Germany took over England.

> It did

> > happen. Germans took over, and to this day, that's

> who's

> > there, and that's who conquered India, and the

> world, the

> > British, are essentially predominantly Germanic

> people. The

> > Celts however did at that time gain and have

> remained since,

> > confined in a way to the Western edges, in all ways,

>

> > cultural, blood, art, etc. That is when Saxxons and

> Celts

> > began to really intermingle heavily, for better or

> worse, in

> > Europe, and they worked out their stuff slowly to

> this day.

> > They are the two halves of the West, the brethren of

> magic,

> > the Celts, and the brethren of control, the Saxxons.

> They

> > are the male and female half of the West whereas

> India and

> > other are the male and female halves of the east

> perhaps. I

> > am trying to see this broad divisions at this time,

> it's

> > generalization, but it's helpful for understanding

> basic

> > directional impulses in ourselves always.

> >

> > It is VERY significant what happened when the two

> zodiacs

> > aligned. Study it. VERY interesting. I'm hinting at

> a

> > possible ocean of understanding for us here, I

> think, maybe?

> >

> > Note that Germany hit the Celts "From the East".

> Note that

> > Ireland, the most protected by distance, a

> sanctuary, was

> > the least and last hit, and the last to hold a

> strong

> > ancient blood line and culture which shows how

> Eastern the

> > West used to be, how Matriarchal, how mystical, how

> > feminine, which is why the dominant masculine

> cultures

> > letters, musical systems, thought systems, dominate

> here

> > today, because we were actually originally too weak,

> too

> > feminine, and both the Germans and Romans could have

> there

> > ways with us, so Rome jumped in, and Germany took it

> later,

> > showing that Rome had the Mars, of the two, and

> Germany the

> > Saturn, of the two, who are both otherwise dominant

> and

> > strong in nature originally, or solar.

> >

> > Of the two Irelands, Scotland and Ireland, Scotland

> is more

> > dominant, and thus, we see, Hilly, whereas Ireland

> is flat

> > to the point of ridiculed and jest. Do you see the

> omens?

> > They teach, instruct, they are real.

> >

> > In America, thousands of years ago, a Native stood

> on the

> > shore in Washington state, and looked out across the

>

> > Pacific, and saw thus: Over there, in the East,

> they have

> > huge palaces and highly organized religious and

> materially

> > successful societies, but they are all part of, and

> > development of personal strengths and virtues,

> relationship

> > with mother Earth, are less. Conformity is more.

> Down South

> > of me, our brothers, also are like that, they build

> alot, in

> > square arrangements, and they have centralization

> thus,

> > whereas here in the North, we do not. We struggle

> more with

> > nature, and know her better, for we must work with

> her, and

> > always have. But a new time has come, after so long,

> the two

> > halves will now meet. Something that is happening

> now

> > starting as always in the East, will soon reach us

> here in

> > the West, and for a long time, it shall have to be

> sorted

> > out in all of us, the contact, the balance, the

> aligning of

> > the two halves of ourselves, the circle, and square,

> mother,

> > father, male, female, dominating, dominated.

> >

> > Likewise, Druids in France studied the phenom, and

> saw it

> > coming, and predicted what has happened, and is

> happening.

> >

> > We have realized: We came from father, but we are

> on

> > mother, and on her we depend. Father continues to

> provide,

> > but mother is our home, the breast we suckle. We

> have both

> > sides in ourselves, and must honor both. We must

> straighten

> > our matters each day, and then mix them up again,

> when the

> > Sun sets. Brush and clean your hair, then tie it in

> knots

> > with sticks and other things mixed in. Know your

> blade, and

> > put it away. Count your money, and forget about it.

> >

> > BOTH.

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> >

> >

> > Das Goravani

> > Roik

>

>

>

>

> Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

> http://finance.

>

>

>

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

> : gjlist-@e...

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

 

[Guest guest]

Venkat -

 

I am sorry, but I find a great deal of difference in the inference

between a sentence that states something '...is "relatively" fixed...',

and one (mine) which mentions the very essence of change. Perhaps I

misread your meaning.

 

But, I also felt you were being somewhat aggressive (Hence, I felt the

need to ... well, step in...) towards the previous poster, and more than

a bit presumtive in general, when you stated that "there is only one

zodiac." Your supposition that Vedic astrology declares that the universe

is dynamic is at odds with the thesis that our destinies are "locked."

This, in fact, was my point - I don't believe this to be true.

NONE-THE-LESS,

I DO lend credence to the things I see from studying Vedic, as well as

Chinese and Western astrology. I simply see different aspects, as I said,

looking at each of them in turn.

 

>From the Western, I see indications of "state-of-mind" and the like; from

the Chinese, I see "tendencies and inclinations"; and from the Vedic, I see

indications of (from my perspective) POTENTIAL "events".

 

As far as measurements are concerned - many of these things HAVE been, and

ARE being measured. I suggest you locate and read a couple of articles on

a fairly recent modification to the "Big Bang" theory called "Inflation."

They are in the April 2002 issues of "Discover" and "Astronomy" magazines.

The theory these articles discuss posits that the "universe" came from quite

literally - "nothing". This actually fits quite well with the stories of

creation from Christianity and a number of other religions while maintaining

a "scientific" ring of truth. For instance, in Christianity, we are told

that God is "everywhere", meaning that He sees and knows everything. My own

belief is that God IS everywhere, meaning that He literally IS everything

that exists. This would explain, at least partially, how something so vast

could come into existance from "nothing" (i.,e. - pure thought) and still

have

such magnificent "order". This also fits quite well with Mr. Goravani's

note

from several days ago - the one that started this discussion...

 

And as far as your last question - well, I don't wish to fan flames...

 

Best Regards,

Martin Michaels

-----------------------

Sr. Systems Analyst

Nirvana Consulting

317-902-9432

gadgetcoder

 

'This work we do,

It's not "rocket science"...

It's much, MUCH harder.'

 

 

 

 

 

venkateshwara_reddy [venkateshwara_reddy]

Wednesday, September 04, 2002 3:57 PM

gjlist

Re: [GJ] RE: Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma and Pa, Again!

 

 

 

> As I mentioned yesterday, I find that each other Zodiacal systems

> has a different viewpoint, and hence, shows different aspects of

our

> "destiny". And I should point out also that as scientists have

proven

> in recent years, the galaxy IS, in fact, CHANGING - the stars

 

 

Dont you see the word "relatively" fixed wrt earth and solar system

in the post I appended on yesterday.

 

Well, Vedic Cosomology declares that the universe(brahmaanda) is

dynamic and is spinning around immobile axis(hiranyagarbha). One spin

of our universe is called parivatsara.

 

Temples were built on this very universe model(vyakta and avyakta

universe).

 

Our solar system, galaxy, galaxy cluster, super galaxy, galaxy super

clusters are spinning and also orbiting around higher centre, as per

Vedic Cosmology. For those geo-centric guys, seasonal calender become

tropical zodiac, and it moves. Ah.

 

 

Solar system also spinning? How much time it take for one spin? Do

these so called scientists measure this, other than providing some

scanty figure.

 

 

The question here, geo-centric vs helio/galaxy/hiranyagarbha centric

issur. Without this, we will end up in so called STATIC universe,

thus bigbang singulary to expanding universe.

 

 

Well, these constellations of stars are also part of some of the

galaxy clusters? What are they?.

 

This question leads to so called precession issues?

 

What is the tropical precession of equinoxes? What is the sidereal

precession of equinoxes? What are the measurements. Why dont these SO

CALLED people in these lists probe sidereal, tropical durations of

various cycles in this universe(day, year, axis precession, orbital

precession, various ahOrAtri-s, varSa-s).

 

Who is FOOLISH.

 

 

Regards,

VR

 

themselves,

> the Zodiac is changing - albeit slowly...just one more lesson on

the

> falseness of "absolutes"...

>

> Best Regards,

> Martin Michaels

>

>

> Venkateswara Reddy [venkateshwara_reddy]

> Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:37 PM

> gjlist

> Cc: vedic astrology

> [GJ] RE: Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma and Pa, Again!

>

>

>

>

> Appended is the post borrowed from another egroup:

>

> ----------------

> On the calendar issue, I feel the word "tropical

> zodiac" is a misnomer. Tropical (i.e., seasonal)

> calendar originated in Greece is a primitive notion of

> keeping track of days wrt seasons only. Hence

> primitive notions such as "zodiac" moves, and so on.

> Even in modern astronomy, or Inertial reference

> frames, these notions are JOKES, but the primitive

> MacCaulay west clings to its Greek wisdom. Let it be

> so, we need not even address it...Just ignore it as

> some child's prank...

>

> There is only one zodiac.

>

> Zodiac, i.e., stars in the sky are "relatively" fixed

> wrt earth and aaditya mandala. That it is the other

> way around is the Ptolemy mind of Greece. We must use

> this "fixed" star base as the definition of the term

> "zodiac". Then the misnomer goes away. The Greek &

> western error is to see the seasonal framework as

> "fixed".

>

> -------------------

>

>

>

> gjlist, Das Goravani <das@g...> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > It struct me now: The Vedic Zodiac, based in stars,

>

> > insensitive to, and thus needing adjustment to, the

> tilt of

> > the Earth which causes a new "perceived and

> moveable" Zodiac

> > to be around us always, the perceived Zodiac, the

> Western

> > Zodiac, where Matriarchy, the circle, ruled, the

> tilt, is a

> > circular wobble, causing seasons, changes, motion,

> movement,

> > precession backwards the Patriarchy feels, movement

> forward

> > the world feels.

> >

> > What is an equinox? It's a perception, which

> happens at the

> > whim of the circular wobble, do you see?

> >

> > Our "real" living life we perceive NOW is based on

> Western

> > Zodiac.

> >

> > The karmic original powerful and dominant Zodiac is

> yet

> > another thing.

> >

> > By the one we know our father, by the other, our

> mother.

> >

> > This is very significant. Neither alone is complete.

> >

> > The truth hurts, to those who are it's enemies.

> >

> > By one half of reality alone you will not know your

> current

> > self, but only your self in relation to leaving this

> world

> > or staying in it, which may be not in your present

> reality,

> > which may be the mix, or gradual progress.

> Patriarchy is

> > perhaps, the dark night of the soul. For the night

> isn't

> > dark to those one with mothers dark half.

> >

> > Some say, "Western is better for personality". This

> is a

> > dumbed-down-over-time way of saying what is perhaps

> quite

> > true, and better said as "Western shows you your

> position in

> > the current relative living world of perception with

> peer

> > humans", and Vedic shows you "You position in

> relationship

> > to the absolute and eternal non perceived reality".

> >

> > These statements could of couse be improved finer,

> more

> > educated thinking.

> >

> > I find this realization quite scientific, though

> such

> > support I'm not going into much here. I find this

> > realization quite significant because of science as

> well as

> > mystical reasons and rationale.

> >

> > I am "tripping on" the play of these two halves of

> the

> > whole. I am trying these days to see the basic Hora

> > division, night and day, male and female, in things,

> so

> > excuse the focus there, it's my current study.

> >

> > I do think, Western Zodiac is more "Mother" and

> Eastern,

> > Sidereal, more "Father". They spawn the likened two

> kinds of

> > ways of thinking- perilistic, ominous, verse

> malable,

> > mutable, relative to us now here. Water, is

> adjusting, more

> > related to mother, and there's more water up North.

> The

> > Earth is drier, harder, more deserts exist, where

> the Sun,

> > the Patriarchy, originates from and is still

> stronger today.

> > The wet and emotional "new age" movement does not

> arise in

> > Lahore, or Delhi, or Cairo, or Israel's old guard.

> No, it

> > arises in Wet Eugene, with little hippies in

> dreadlocks. I

> > have always been a child of the Green, the Water,

> the wet. I

> > have always taken to this stuff. The way Krishna is,

> so

> > covered with flowers, girlfriends, music, passion,

> cows,

> > love and abilities chivalrously splendid, is all

> very

> > Celtic, and wet, and covered with turns and twists,

> dirt

> > between toes, not straight roman roads. To "Preach"

> for

> > Krishna is just about a perfect oximoron. These

> splits of

> > the two halves living in me have split me in two,

> but that's

> > OK, it's all good learning.

> >

> > The earliest authors of our time, Greek historians,

> wrote of

> > Celts "they are tall, very white and wet skinned".

> >

> > Things are white and wet where there is no Sun (ie,

> ocean

> > bottom)

> >

> > Celts do not digest fat properly, they need certain

> fish or

> > the oil from certain seeds, otherwise, they actually

> feel

> > bad. A developed genetic disposition to a certain

> diet,

> > showing certain karmic alignments for those with

> eyes.

> >

> > And from where and whom do Celts trace their

> ancestry?

> >

> > The Sun, one day, met the Moon, and after

> subjegating it,

> > retired in exaustion. The moon, not caring that it

> was

> > subjegated, such being it's normal state, cared for

> the Sun

> > while he slept.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hope this is interesting. I think so.

> >

> > By the way, according to most calculations, there

> was an

> > "alignment" around 300 AD say. This is a very key

> time in

> > history. I suggest everyone look into what was going

> on on

> > an emotional level for all of the Western world at

> that

> > time, all of Europe. Very very interesting. That was

> when

> > the great Patriarch fell out of control of the West,

> Europe

> > that is, and the "Natives" began again their old

> ways,

> > without Romans, but in the wake of their total

> dominance and

> > presence. It was a time when "Mother" got ahold

> again of all

> > her Western Children, without "Father" around, but

> all his

> > forts, roads, and systems were in place, never to

> again go

> > away. It was a balance point folks. Quite

> significant one.

> > You and I are literally living in the wake of those

> events

> > of those days. They were VERY Pivotal.

> >

> > For example, that IS when Germany took over England.

> It did

> > happen. Germans took over, and to this day, that's

> who's

> > there, and that's who conquered India, and the

> world, the

> > British, are essentially predominantly Germanic

> people. The

> > Celts however did at that time gain and have

> remained since,

> > confined in a way to the Western edges, in all ways,

>

> > cultural, blood, art, etc. That is when Saxxons and

> Celts

> > began to really intermingle heavily, for better or

> worse, in

> > Europe, and they worked out their stuff slowly to

> this day.

> > They are the two halves of the West, the brethren of

> magic,

> > the Celts, and the brethren of control, the Saxxons.

> They

> > are the male and female half of the West whereas

> India and

> > other are the male and female halves of the east

> perhaps. I

> > am trying to see this broad divisions at this time,

> it's

> > generalization, but it's helpful for understanding

> basic

> > directional impulses in ourselves always.

> >

> > It is VERY significant what happened when the two

> zodiacs

> > aligned. Study it. VERY interesting. I'm hinting at

> a

> > possible ocean of understanding for us here, I

> think, maybe?

> >

> > Note that Germany hit the Celts "From the East".

> Note that

> > Ireland, the most protected by distance, a

> sanctuary, was

> > the least and last hit, and the last to hold a

> strong

> > ancient blood line and culture which shows how

> Eastern the

> > West used to be, how Matriarchal, how mystical, how

> > feminine, which is why the dominant masculine

> cultures

> > letters, musical systems, thought systems, dominate

> here

> > today, because we were actually originally too weak,

> too

> > feminine, and both the Germans and Romans could have

> there

> > ways with us, so Rome jumped in, and Germany took it

> later,

> > showing that Rome had the Mars, of the two, and

> Germany the

> > Saturn, of the two, who are both otherwise dominant

> and

> > strong in nature originally, or solar.

> >

> > Of the two Irelands, Scotland and Ireland, Scotland

> is more

> > dominant, and thus, we see, Hilly, whereas Ireland

> is flat

> > to the point of ridiculed and jest. Do you see the

> omens?

> > They teach, instruct, they are real.

> >

> > In America, thousands of years ago, a Native stood

> on the

> > shore in Washington state, and looked out across the

>

> > Pacific, and saw thus: Over there, in the East,

> they have

> > huge palaces and highly organized religious and

> materially

> > successful societies, but they are all part of, and

> > development of personal strengths and virtues,

> relationship

> > with mother Earth, are less. Conformity is more.

> Down South

> > of me, our brothers, also are like that, they build

> alot, in

> > square arrangements, and they have centralization

> thus,

> > whereas here in the North, we do not. We struggle

> more with

> > nature, and know her better, for we must work with

> her, and

> > always have. But a new time has come, after so long,

> the two

> > halves will now meet. Something that is happening

> now

> > starting as always in the East, will soon reach us

> here in

> > the West, and for a long time, it shall have to be

> sorted

> > out in all of us, the contact, the balance, the

> aligning of

> > the two halves of ourselves, the circle, and square,

> mother,

> > father, male, female, dominating, dominated.

> >

> > Likewise, Druids in France studied the phenom, and

> saw it

> > coming, and predicted what has happened, and is

> happening.

> >

> > We have realized: We came from father, but we are

> on

> > mother, and on her we depend. Father continues to

> provide,

> > but mother is our home, the breast we suckle. We

> have both

> > sides in ourselves, and must honor both. We must

> straighten

> > our matters each day, and then mix them up again,

> when the

> > Sun sets. Brush and clean your hair, then tie it in

> knots

> > with sticks and other things mixed in. Know your

> blade, and

> > put it away. Count your money, and forget about it.

> >

> > BOTH.

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> >

> >

> > Das Goravani

> > Roik

>

>

>

>

> Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

> http://finance.

>

>

>

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

> : gjlist-@e...

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

 

 

 

 

 

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

: gjlist-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Dear All

 

I was a full-time professional astrologer using western astrology when I

encountered the Vedic model. The Dasha periods offered something no other

astrology did and I took the plunge right into the ACVA certification

program.

 

What I have sen by walking in both of these worlds is mild to extreme

self-protectionism. It seems that each group has its reasons for why the

other form of astrology is invalid or culturally skewed <perhaps I should

say culturally screwed!>

 

What Vedic astrologers cling to and rightly so is the astronomical accuracy

of the sidereal zodiac. But what you may not know if you have not studied

it is that western or tropical astrology may be astronomically accurate but

it offers the most beautiful personality model that I've ever seen. Western

astrology has been used as a psychological tool since Carl Jung and has

developed in that light. It has also been developed as a trans-personal

spiritual model.

 

I like to take these approaches and apply them to my astrology practice. If

I merely used Vedic as it is taught, I would only have a tool for timing.

When I combine the others and use the rich symbolism of the nakshatras and

the outer planets I have a life evolution model.

 

To my mind, an astrologer who does not want to see the virtues of both will

for ever be left with one empty pocket. I know I'll take some flack for

that, but hear me out. I love Vedic astrology and 90-95% of my sessions are

on Vedic. But it does not make sense to a client who has all his life seen

himself as an Aries and does indeed have all those traits to suddenly tell

him he is a Pisces! If on the other hand he can identify the dynamic action

oriented personality he has with the deep Utar Bhadrapadapa or Revati

qualities, well that is offering him a deeper understanding of who he is.

 

It is true that the "signs" are much more important in Western than Vedic

and that is for good reason. They have been developed over years of study

and experience. When you cross over and use the signs the same way in Vedic

it does not work. Likewise, Vedic is much better at timing, but without

including the outer planets with their rich and often powerful life lessons

you are again with one empty pocket. Often a Pluto, Uranu or Neptune

transit will be so powerful that it skews the whole experience and

expression of a dasha.

 

I guess it all comes down to whether the astrologer wants to work with

personality or timing events or spirituality or all of the above. To my

mind it is best to keep open. If I said: Oh, I have a good practice why

bother to learn something that is so old I would have one very empty pocket

today. Likewise, it is worthy to open yourself to something that is new.

 

rambling

 

c

[Guest guest]

Cynthia! (and all else...)

 

You have just stated (much more articulately) what I was trying to

say -- I am merely a "hobbyist" at best - albeit a studied one. My main

expertise, outside of the astrological calculations (I was a Math major),

is in the philosophical connections (my minor).

 

cynthia novak [c.a.novak]

Thursday, September 05, 2002 9:11 AM

gjlist

Re: [GJ] RE: Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma and Pa, Again!

 

 

Dear All

 

I was a full-time professional astrologer using western astrology

when I

encountered the Vedic model. The Dasha periods offered something no

other

astrology did and I took the plunge right into the ACVA

certification

program.

 

What I have seen by walking in both of these worlds is mild to

extreme

self-protectionism. It seems that each group has its reasons for

why the

other form of astrology is invalid or culturally skewed <perhaps I

should

say culturally screwed!>

 

I have found with rare exceptions, that this is the case. We often limit

ourselves

by ignoring or even shunning the knowledge to be gained by studying the

methods

of others. I found the same thing to be true in martial arts...and

religion...and...

 

What Vedic astrologers cling to and rightly so is the astronomical

accuracy

of the sidereal zodiac. But what you may not know if you have not

studied

it is that western or tropical astrology may be astronomically

accurate but

it offers the most beautiful personality model that I've ever seen.

Western

astrology has been used as a psychological tool since Carl Jung and

has

developed in that light. It has also been developed as a

trans-personal

spiritual model.

 

He did so by borrowing (liberally!) from the Chinese astrological studies

(i-ching,

in particular)...and in my personal opinion, the insights he gained from his

studies

in this area are what made him the better between himself and Freud.

 

I like to take these approaches and apply them to my astrology

practice. If

I merely used Vedic as it is taught, I would only have a tool for

timing.

When I combine the others and use the rich symbolism of the

nakshatras and

the outer planets I have a life evolution model.

 

I have found exactly the same thing - this is what I was trying (probably

failing) to

say over the past few days.

 

To my mind, an astrologer who does not want to see the virtues of

both will

for ever be left with one empty pocket. I know I'll take some flack

for

that, but hear me out. I love Vedic astrology and 90-95% of my

sessions are

on Vedic. But it does not make sense to a client who has all his

life seen

himself as an Aries and does indeed have all those traits to

suddenly tell

him he is a Pisces! If on the other hand he can identify the

dynamic action

oriented personality he has with the deep Utar Bhadrapadapa or

Revati

qualities, well that is offering him a deeper understanding of who

he is.

 

It is true that the "signs" are much more important in Western than

Vedic

and that is for good reason. They have been developed over years of

study

and experience. When you cross over and use the signs the same way

in Vedic

it does not work. Likewise, Vedic is much better at timing, but

without

including the outer planets with their rich and often powerful life

lessons

you are again with one empty pocket. Often a Pluto, Uranus or

Neptune

transit will be so powerful that it skews the whole experience and

expression of a dasha.

 

After reading your notes here, it should be obvious to expert and novice

alike

the benefit of studying both (or even all three) techniques...

 

I guess it all comes down to whether the astrologer wants to work

with

personality or timing events or spirituality or all of the above.

To my

mind it is best to keep open. If I said: Oh, I have a good practice

why

bother to learn something that is so old I would have one very empty

pocket

today. Likewise, it is worthy to open yourself to something that is

new.

 

....And it is ALWAYS good to know more.

 

rambling

c

 

Not at all - Thank you for your insight...

 

Best Regards,

Martin

 

 

 

 

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

: gjlist-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Michaels,

 

> I am sorry,

 

No need to say sorry. You are not lower, I am no

higher.

 

> but I find a great deal of difference in

> the inference between a sentence that states

>something '...is "relatively" fixed...'

 

This "realatively" fixed nakshatra reference frame

fails, if you go beyond aadhitya mandala LAYER. THis

reference frame is alright for any solar

system(sahasraadhityaH of shruti--countless, but

finite in this universe--dont mix up with Cantor's

transfinite). Why it fails, when you go to higher

layer, that means, galaxy, galaxy clusters, super

galaxy et al?. This is

because these nakshatra-s(of course, black holes too)

are spinning albeit slowly wrt some axis. One spin of

galaxy is O(10^[13+k] years). What is our life span,

How far our secular history textbooks(except

puraana-s)talk about history. They talk since

greeko-roman wisdom. That means, a couple of thousand

years. Biblical certainities think that creation

started in 4004 BC. That means, just we are in

O(10^3). Where is O(10^3), when you compare

O(1O^[13+k]). Now these stars seems to be fixed when

we talk about these few thousand years history. Why

dont these history books talk about pre-early glacier

history? We talk about fixed nakshatra-s in jyotisha

and astronomy. That means they are relatively fixed.

 

,

> and one (mine) which mentions the very essence of

> change.

 

I was pointing to solar systems, and graha-s in the

same. Thus, nakshatra-s are relatively fixed wrt this

solar system.

 

> But, I also felt you were being somewhat aggressive

> (Hence, I felt the need to ... well, step in...)

>towards the previous poster, and more than

> a bit presumtive in general, when you stated that

 

Whatever I posted in the first message, is mere a

copied extract from one gentleman's posting re:

Rigveda in cosomolgy by Patrizia in THE HINDU, a

marxist daily in India, where patrizia is confused

about zodiac.

 

 

> "there is only one zodiac."

 

Let us discuss in scientific temper about this- As

every member in these assume that there are

two reference frames(viz tropical, sidereal). NO

jyotisa book aired any special zodiac, such as

SIDEREAl Zodiac. They just say BhA chakra/Zodiac.

 

Assume that Tropical zodiac is another reference

frame, here are my questions?

 

What is the length of

-Tropical day

-Tropical month

-Tropical year(define the same)

-Tropical precession of equinoxes

-Tropical yuga-s, manvantara-s, kalpa-s

-Tropical day of various graha-s in our solar system.

-Tropical years of various graha-s in our solar system

 

A scientific examination into this with physics(a

basic insight into reference frames)/astronomy would

reveal as to what is tropical zodiac.

 

> Your supposition that Vedic astrology declares that

>the universe is dynamic is at odds with the thesis

 

Fortunately, vedic astrology is a mis-nomer. veda less

vedic astrology(vedic astrology - veda) is what we

see.

 

 

>that our destinies are "locked."

 

puruSa sUktam declares that universe is

dynamic(cf:saptAsyAsan pariDhayaH). When the knowledge

of 7 pariDhis were mistaken to 7 darBhA sticks around

homakunda, these cosmological notions were probably

lost, and pandita-s coined the currently prevalent

meanings to "explain" the Vedic terms.

 

Time is cyclic, thus universe is dynamic. No

indefinite locking thus.

 

 

 

> This, in fact, was my point - I don't believe this

> to be true.

 

Using Monte-Carlo tests, given enough parameters,

tuning procedures can successfully match data to an

incorrect model, resulting in an inaccurate time scale

as well as in a false validation of that model.

 

Whatever the evidence these so-called scientists

collected for Big bang is using for inflation. A

simple analogy: Let us consider a linear diaphantine

equation L:ax+by = c, and this equation has many

intger solutions. A subset of this solution set is

also a solution of another equation M: lx+my = n,

where L and M are not parallel. This means that it is

very easy to tune the data as scanty evidence to the

present day cosmological problems.

Acceptance/Rejection of certain theory is another

issue.

 

 

 

> NONE-THE-LESS, I DO lend credence to the things I

>see from studying Vedic, as well as Chinese and

>Western astrology.

 

Vedaless vedic astrology and Indology veda-s + vedic

astrology take us to nowhere.

 

> I simply see different aspects, as I said,

> looking at each of them in turn.

 

I am not talking about astrological interpreations

based on seasons, or based on fixed nakshatra-s. I am

not a practising astrologer. Just I can understand the

analysis(like a elementary school student cross check

the integer solutions of a second degree diaphontine

eqn). jyOtiSa also falls under para vidya category.

Some people, they dont cast

horoscope(western/eastern), they are experts at

predicting accurately. I was raising "tropical vs

sidereal issue in terms of measuments", but not the

interpretations, because of para-apara vidya

categories.

 

 

> ARE being measured. I suggest you locate and read a

> couple of articles on a fairly recent modification

> to the "Big Bang" theory called "Inflation."

 

As I already stated in earlier post "bigbang

singularity to expanding universe". The so called

inflation theory is marriage of the best features of

big bang and the steady state scenarios. Again, this

inflation theory is also static, thus expanding

universe.

 

 

> They are in the April 2002 issues of "Discover" and

> "Astronomy" magazines. The theory these articles

> discuss posits that the "universe" came

> from quite literally - "nothing".

 

What is there beyond of these Universe(dark matter +

galaxy clusters + planets et al).

 

A well known science writer in USA has written that

our scientific model of the present universe may be

just as "faulty" as Columbus's map of earth. And

between modern cosmology and Vedic view, while there

are some similarities, there are great differences

too. Some examples:

 

Cosmologist's universe is static; Vedic brahmAnda

(that contains the whole universe) spins around a

central axis through 'hiraNyagarBha'.

 

Cosmologist's universe arose from an indescribable

singularity; Vedic universe from an Indescribable,

permanent, pure.

 

That One as Indescribable beyond words such as sat,

asat, raja, vyOma, mR`tyu, amR`tam, etc.; from such

Indescribable state came tama, then salilam (not

water, but primordial matter! What does modern

cosmology say? - some indescribable uniform

fundamental matter sea from a mathematical

singularity, it it not? Read the most respected

cosmologist in CalTech groping just as R`shi-s did);

then aekam mahimAn, desire, multiplicity, universe,

etc.) cf: nasadiya suktam.

 

 

The most fundamental particle, parent of all

fundamental particle we know today, arose in a uniform

sea from the singularity under tremendous heat (big

bang);

 

Vedic image is of a sea of salila -> Apa -> ka -> ma

-> la (not water of earth) with no such intense heat,

etc.

 

The notion of mandala-s and pariDhi-s is Vedic: sapta

pariDhi-s, agni-s, jihvA-s, R`Si-s, DhAma-s,

Aditya-sOma-vahni mandala-s, etc. That all celestial

bodies (not just this earth we live on) are mostly

spherical was known to mankind extremely long time

before Aristotle.

 

 

 

 

> Christianity, we are told that God >is

"everywhere", meaning that He sees and knows

>everything.

 

How do this church centric mindset justifies when they

wiped out over 100 million human beings/native

americans in the span of 50 years in-out of

hatred and biblical beliefs of racial supremacy.

 

Were not these religions see God in those 100 million

human beings?

 

Here are more examples:

 

Here are the examples: Greeks during Alexander

rampaged and murdered millions in the present Middle

East, Africa and Mediterrainean. Then the Roman

vs.Barbarian wars in Europe wiped out and/or enslaved

some more millions. There were famines too. In China

and India too there were ongoing turmoils but

relatively less than that in Europe. In the

Americas there were bloody quarrels (Maya-s, Inca-s,

native Indian intra-tribal wars, etc.). After the

onset of Christianity in Jerusalem, a new fight

started - between the followers of this new faith and

the older pagans, and millions of pagans were killed.

>From 5th century onwards it only got worse. After

Islam's entry in 7th century, all hell broke loose -

there were continuous crusades, tyranny

slavery, famines, and harm to every life element in

nature. By 15th century, Eurpoe's new barbarians were

going on their ships (target: the rich and world

famous Indica) and looting, raping, enslaving,

murdering wherever they set foot (Americas, Africa,

Asia). Several millions of native American Indians

were wiped out. Ditto in Africa. In India Muslim

armies killed over 5 million Hindus and destroyed

over 10,000 temples just as Christians had done in

Europe during their crusades and Muslims had avenged

it in Middle East and Spain. Yet it continued through

World War II when a few millions of Jews were done

with by the nazis.

 

Read Timur biography, you will notice more about

killings of humans in the name of abrahamic religions.

 

 

Thus crux of the difference between East and West

today is due to the Aristotelian logic of "no God here

 

in this universe, but God is outside of this

matter-energy ensembled universe and controls it".

There is no other fundamental difference.

 

> My own belief is that God IS everywhere, meaning

>that He literally IS everything that exists.

 

 

GOOD

 

With Regards,

VR

 

 

 

> This would explain, at least

> partially, how something

> so vast

> could come into existance from "nothing" (i.,e. -

> pure thought) and

> still

> have

> such magnificent "order". This also fits quite well

> with Mr.

> Goravani's

> note

> from several days ago - the one that started this

> discussion...

>

> And as far as your last question - well, I don't

> wish to fan flames...

>

> Best Regards,

> Martin Michaels

> -----------------------

> Sr. Systems Analyst

> Nirvana Consulting

> 317-902-9432

> gadgetcoder

>

> 'This work we do,

> It's not "rocket science"...

> It's much, MUCH harder.'

>

>

>

>

>

> venkateshwara_reddy

> [venkateshwara_reddy]

> Wednesday, September 04, 2002 3:57 PM

> gjlist

> Re: [GJ] RE: Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma

> and Pa, Again!

>

>

>

> > As I mentioned yesterday, I find that each other

> Zodiacal systems

> > has a different viewpoint, and hence, shows

> different aspects of

> our

> > "destiny". And I should point out also that as

> scientists have

> proven

> > in recent years, the galaxy IS, in fact, CHANGING

> - the stars

>

>

> Dont you see the word "relatively" fixed wrt earth

> and solar system

> in the post I appended on yesterday.

>

> Well, Vedic Cosomology declares that the

> universe(brahmaanda) is

> dynamic and is spinning around immobile

> axis(hiranyagarbha). One spin

> of our universe is called parivatsara.

>

> Temples were built on this very universe

> model(vyakta and avyakta

> universe).

>

> Our solar system, galaxy, galaxy cluster, super

> galaxy, galaxy super

> clusters are spinning and also orbiting around

> higher centre, as per

> Vedic Cosmology. For those geo-centric guys,

> seasonal calender become

> tropical zodiac, and it moves. Ah.

>

>

> Solar system also spinning? How much time it take

> for one spin? Do

> these so called scientists measure this, other than

> providing some

> scanty figure.

>

>

> The question here, geo-centric vs

> helio/galaxy/hiranyagarbha centric

> issur. Without this, we will end up in so called

> STATIC universe,

> thus bigbang singulary to expanding universe.

>

>

> Well, these constellations of stars are also part of

> some of the

> galaxy clusters? What are they?.

>

> This question leads to so called precession issues?

>

> What is the tropical precession of equinoxes? What

> is the sidereal

> precession of equinoxes? What are the measurements.

> Why dont these SO

> CALLED people in these lists probe sidereal,

> tropical durations of

> various cycles in this universe(day, year, axis

> precession, orbital

> precession, various ahOrAtri-s, varSa-s).

>

> Who is FOOLISH.

>

>

> Regards,

> VR

>

> themselves,

> > the Zodiac is changing - albeit slowly...just one

> more lesson on

> the

> > falseness of "absolutes"...

> >

> > Best Regards,

> > Martin Michaels

> >

> >

> > Venkateswara Reddy

> [venkateshwara_reddy]

> > Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:37 PM

> > gjlist

> > Cc: vedic astrology

> > [GJ] RE: Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma and

> Pa, Again!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Appended is the post borrowed from another egroup:

> >

> > ----------------

> > On the calendar issue, I feel the word "tropical

> > zodiac" is a misnomer. Tropical (i.e., seasonal)

> > calendar originated in Greece is a primitive

> notion of

> > keeping track of days wrt seasons only. Hence

> > primitive notions such as "zodiac" moves, and so

> on.

> > Even in modern astronomy, or Inertial reference

> > frames, these notions are JOKES, but the primitive

> > MacCaulay west clings to its Greek wisdom. Let it

> be

> > so, we need not even address it...Just ignore it

> as

> > some child's prank...

> >

> > There is only one zodiac.

> >

> > Zodiac, i.e., stars in the sky are "relatively"

> fixed

> > wrt earth and aaditya mandala. That it is the

> other

> > way around is the Ptolemy mind of Greece. We must

> use

> > this "fixed" star base as the definition of the

> term

> > "zodiac". Then the misnomer goes away. The Greek &

> > western error is to see the seasonal framework as

> > "fixed".

> >

> >

> -------------------

> >

> >

> >

> > gjlist, Das Goravani <das@g...> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > It struct me now: The Vedic Zodiac, based in

> stars,

> >

> > > insensitive to, and thus needing adjustment to,

> the

> > tilt of

> > > the Earth which causes a new "perceived and

> > moveable" Zodiac

> > > to be around us always, the perceived Zodiac,

> the

> > Western

> > > Zodiac, where Matriarchy, the circle, ruled, the

> > tilt, is a

> > > circular wobble, causing seasons, changes,

> motion,

> > movement,

> > > precession backwards the Patriarchy feels,

> movement

> > forward

> > > the world feels.

> > >

> > > What is an equinox? It's a perception, which

> > happens at the

> > > whim of the circular wobble, do you see?

> > >

> > > Our "real" living life we perceive NOW is based

> on

> > Western

> > > Zodiac.

> > >

> > > The karmic original powerful and dominant Zodiac

> is

> > yet

> > > another thing.

> > >

> > > By the one we know our father, by the other, our

> > mother.

> > >

> > > This is very significant. Neither alone is

> complete.

> > >

> > > The truth hurts, to those who are it's enemies.

> > >

> > > By one half of reality alone you will not know

> your

> > current

> > > self, but only your self in relation to leaving

> this

> > world

> > > or staying in it, which may be not in your

> present

> > reality,

> > > which may be the mix, or gradual progress.

> > Patriarchy is

> > > perhaps, the dark night of the soul. For the

> night

> > isn't

> > > dark to those one with mothers dark half.

> > >

> > > Some say, "Western is better for personality".

> This

> > is a

> > > dumbed-down-over-time way of saying what is

> perhaps

> > quite

> > > true, and better said as "Western shows you your

> > position in

> > > the current relative living world of perception

> with

> > peer

> > > humans", and Vedic shows you "You position in

> > relationship

> > > to the absolute and eternal non perceived

> reality".

> > >

> > > These statements could of couse be improved

> finer,

> > more

> > > educated thinking.

> > >

> > > I find this realization quite scientific, though

> > such

> > > support I'm not going into much here. I find

> this

> > > realization quite significant because of science

> as

> > well as

> > > mystical reasons and rationale.

> > >

> > > I am "tripping on" the play of these two halves

> of

> > the

> > > whole. I am trying these days to see the basic

> Hora

> > > division, night and day, male and female, in

> things,

> > so

> > > excuse the focus there, it's my current study.

> > >

> > > I do think, Western Zodiac is more "Mother" and

> > Eastern,

> > > Sidereal, more "Father". They spawn the likened

> two

> > kinds of

> > > ways of thinking- perilistic, ominous, verse

> > malable,

> > > mutable, relative to us now here. Water, is

> > adjusting, more

> > > related to mother, and there's more water up

> North.

> > The

> > > Earth is drier, harder, more deserts exist,

> where

> > the Sun,

> > > the Patriarchy, originates from and is still

> > stronger today.

> > > The wet and emotional "new age" movement does

> not

> > arise in

> > > Lahore, or Delhi, or Cairo, or Israel's old

> guard.

> > No, it

> > > arises in Wet Eugene, with little hippies in

> > dreadlocks. I

> > > have always been a child of the Green, the

> Water,

> > the wet. I

> > > have always taken to this stuff. The way Krishna

> is,

> > so

> > > covered with flowers, girlfriends, music,

> passion,

> > cows,

> > > love and abilities chivalrously splendid, is all

> > very

> > > Celtic, and wet, and covered with turns and

> twists,

> > dirt

> > > between toes, not straight roman roads. To

> "Preach"

> > for

> > > Krishna is just about a perfect oximoron. These

> > splits of

> > > the two halves living in me have split me in

> two,

> > but that's

> > > OK, it's all good learning.

> > >

> > > The earliest authors of our time, Greek

> historians,

> > wrote of

> > > Celts "they are tall, very white and wet

> skinned".

> > >

> > > Things are white and wet where there is no Sun

> (ie,

> > ocean

> > > bottom)

> > >

> > > Celts do not digest fat properly, they need

> certain

> > fish or

> > > the oil from certain seeds, otherwise, they

> actually

> > feel

> > > bad. A developed genetic disposition to a

> certain

> > diet,

> > > showing certain karmic alignments for those with

> > eyes.

> > >

> > > And from where and whom do Celts trace their

> > ancestry?

> > >

> > > The Sun, one day, met the Moon, and after

> > subjegating it,

> > > retired in exaustion. The moon, not caring that

> it

> > was

> > > subjegated, such being it's normal state, cared

> for

> > the Sun

> > > while he slept.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hope this is interesting. I think so.

> > >

> > > By the way, according to most calculations,

> there

> > was an

> > > "alignment" around 300 AD say. This is a very

> key

> > time in

> > > history. I suggest everyone look into what was

> going

> > on on

> > > an emotional level for all of the Western world

> at

> > that

> > > time, all of Europe. Very very interesting. That

> was

> > when

> > > the great Patriarch fell out of control of the

> West,

> > Europe

> > > that is, and the "Natives" began again their old

> > ways,

> > > without Romans, but in the wake of their total

> > dominance and

> > > presence. It was a time when "Mother" got ahold

> > again of all

> > > her Western Children, without "Father" around,

> but

> > all his

> > > forts, roads, and systems were in place, never

> to

> > again go

> > > away. It was a balance point folks. Quite

> > significant one.

> > > You and I are literally living in the wake of

> those

> > events

> > > of those days. They were VERY Pivotal.

> > >

> > > For example, that IS when Germany took over

> England.

> > It did

> > > happen. Germans took over, and to this day,

> that's

> > who's

> > > there, and that's who conquered India, and the

> > world, the

> > > British, are essentially predominantly Germanic

> > people. The

> > > Celts however did at that time gain and have

> > remained since,

> > > confined in a way to the Western edges, in all

> ways,

> >

> > > cultural, blood, art, etc. That is when Saxxons

> and

> > Celts

> > > began to really intermingle heavily, for better

> or

> > worse, in

> > > Europe, and they worked out their stuff slowly

> to

> > this day.

> > > They are the two halves of the West, the

> brethren of

> > magic,

> > > the Celts, and the brethren of control, the

> Saxxons.

> > They

> > > are the male and female half of the West whereas

> > India and

> > > other are the male and female halves of the east

> > perhaps. I

> > > am trying to see this broad divisions at this

> time,

> > it's

> > > generalization, but it's helpful for

> understanding

> > basic

> > > directional impulses in ourselves always.

> > >

> > > It is VERY significant what happened when the

> two

> > zodiacs

> > > aligned. Study it. VERY interesting. I'm hinting

> at

> > a

> > > possible ocean of understanding for us here, I

> > think, maybe?

> > >

> > > Note that Germany hit the Celts "From the East".

>

> > Note that

> > > Ireland, the most protected by distance, a

> > sanctuary, was

> > > the least and last hit, and the last to hold a

> > strong

> > > ancient blood line and culture which shows how

> > Eastern the

> > > West used to be, how Matriarchal, how mystical,

> how

> > > feminine, which is why the dominant masculine

> > cultures

> > > letters, musical systems, thought systems,

> dominate

> > here

> > > today, because we were actually originally too

> weak,

> > too

> > > feminine, and both the Germans and Romans could

> have

> > there

> > > ways with us, so Rome jumped in, and Germany

> took it

> > later,

> > > showing that Rome had the Mars, of the two, and

> > Germany the

> > > Saturn, of the two, who are both otherwise

> dominant

> > and

> > > strong in nature originally, or solar.

> > >

> > > Of the two Irelands, Scotland and Ireland,

> Scotland

> > is more

> > > dominant, and thus, we see, Hilly, whereas

> Ireland

> > is flat

> > > to the point of ridiculed and jest. Do you see

> the

> > omens?

> > > They teach, instruct, they are real.

> > >

> > > In America, thousands of years ago, a Native

> stood

> > on the

> > > shore in Washington state, and looked out across

> the

> >

> > > Pacific, and saw thus: Over there, in the East,

> > they have

> > > huge palaces and highly organized religious and

> > materially

> > > successful societies, but they are all part of,

> and

> > > development of personal strengths and virtues,

> > relationship

> > > with mother Earth, are less. Conformity is more.

>

> > Down South

> > > of me, our brothers, also are like that, they

> build

> > alot, in

> > > square arrangements, and they have

> centralization

> > thus,

> > > whereas here in the North, we do not. We

> struggle

> > more with

> > > nature, and know her better, for we must work

> with

> > her, and

> > > always have. But a new time has come, after so

> long,

> > the two

> > > halves will now meet. Something that is

> happening

> > now

> > > starting as always in the East, will soon reach

> us

> > here in

> > > the West, and for a long time, it shall have to

> be

> > sorted

> > > out in all of us, the contact, the balance, the

> > aligning of

> > > the two halves of ourselves, the circle, and

> square,

> > mother,

> > > father, male, female, dominating, dominated.

> > >

> > > Likewise, Druids in France studied the phenom,

> and

> > saw it

> > > coming, and predicted what has happened, and is

> > happening.

> > >

> > > We have realized: We came from father, but we

> are

> > on

> > > mother, and on her we depend. Father continues

> to

> > provide,

> > > but mother is our home, the breast we suckle. We

> > have both

> > > sides in ourselves, and must honor both. We must

> > straighten

> > > our matters each day, and then mix them up

> again,

> > when the

> > > Sun sets. Brush and clean your hair, then tie

> it in

> > knots

> > > with sticks and other things mixed in. Know your

> > blade, and

> > > put it away. Count your money, and forget about

> it.

> > >

> > > BOTH.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > --

> > >

> > >

> > > Das Goravani

> > > Roik

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

> > http://finance.

> >

> >

> >

> > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat

> Sat

> > :

> gjlist-@e...

> >

> >

> >

> > Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

>

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat

> Sat

> :

> gjlist-@e...

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

> --- End forwarded message ---

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

http://finance.

[Guest guest]

Venkat -

 

(Forgive me shortening your name. We have a "Venkat" here where I work,

he tells me it is acceptable.)

 

Let us simply agree to disagree... Neither of us can truly "prove"

our beliefs, which are the products of both our individual studies and

cultural backgrounds. In any case, I now see that you did not intend

to be rude to the original post. Probably a language thing... But, I

DO enjoy a good debate.

 

Good day...

 

Martin

 

 

Venkateswara Reddy [venkateshwara_reddy]

Thursday, September 05, 2002 10:16 PM

gjlist

Cc: vedic astrology

RE: [GJ] Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma and Pa, Again!

 

 

Michaels,

 

> I am sorry,

 

No need to say sorry. You are not lower, I am no

higher.

 

> but I find a great deal of difference in

> the inference between a sentence that states

>something '...is "relatively" fixed...'

 

This "realatively" fixed nakshatra reference frame

fails, if you go beyond aadhitya mandala LAYER. THis

reference frame is alright for any solar

system(sahasraadhityaH of shruti--countless, but

finite in this universe--dont mix up with Cantor's

transfinite). Why it fails, when you go to higher

layer, that means, galaxy, galaxy clusters, super

galaxy et al?. This is

because these nakshatra-s(of course, black holes too)

are spinning albeit slowly wrt some axis. One spin of

galaxy is O(10^[13+k] years). What is our life span,

How far our secular history textbooks(except

puraana-s)talk about history. They talk since

greeko-roman wisdom. That means, a couple of thousand

years. Biblical certainities think that creation

started in 4004 BC. That means, just we are in

O(10^3). Where is O(10^3), when you compare

O(1O^[13+k]). Now these stars seems to be fixed when

we talk about these few thousand years history. Why

dont these history books talk about pre-early glacier

history? We talk about fixed nakshatra-s in jyotisha

and astronomy. That means they are relatively fixed.

 

,

> and one (mine) which mentions the very essence of

> change.

 

I was pointing to solar systems, and graha-s in the

same. Thus, nakshatra-s are relatively fixed wrt this

solar system.

 

> But, I also felt you were being somewhat aggressive

> (Hence, I felt the need to ... well, step in...)

>towards the previous poster, and more than

> a bit presumtive in general, when you stated that

 

Whatever I posted in the first message, is mere a

copied extract from one gentleman's posting re:

Rigveda in cosomolgy by Patrizia in THE HINDU, a

marxist daily in India, where patrizia is confused

about zodiac.

 

 

> "there is only one zodiac."

 

Let us discuss in scientific temper about this- As

every member in these assume that there are

two reference frames(viz tropical, sidereal). NO

jyotisa book aired any special zodiac, such as

SIDEREAl Zodiac. They just say BhA chakra/Zodiac.

 

Assume that Tropical zodiac is another reference

frame, here are my questions?

 

What is the length of

-Tropical day

-Tropical month

-Tropical year(define the same)

-Tropical precession of equinoxes

-Tropical yuga-s, manvantara-s, kalpa-s

-Tropical day of various graha-s in our solar system.

-Tropical years of various graha-s in our solar system

 

A scientific examination into this with physics(a

basic insight into reference frames)/astronomy would

reveal as to what is tropical zodiac.

 

> Your supposition that Vedic astrology declares that

>the universe is dynamic is at odds with the thesis

 

Fortunately, vedic astrology is a mis-nomer. veda less

vedic astrology(vedic astrology - veda) is what we

see.

 

 

>that our destinies are "locked."

 

puruSa sUktam declares that universe is

dynamic(cf:saptAsyAsan pariDhayaH). When the knowledge

of 7 pariDhis were mistaken to 7 darBhA sticks around

homakunda, these cosmological notions were probably

lost, and pandita-s coined the currently prevalent

meanings to "explain" the Vedic terms.

 

Time is cyclic, thus universe is dynamic. No

indefinite locking thus.

 

 

 

> This, in fact, was my point - I don't believe this

> to be true.

 

Using Monte-Carlo tests, given enough parameters,

tuning procedures can successfully match data to an

incorrect model, resulting in an inaccurate time scale

as well as in a false validation of that model.

 

Whatever the evidence these so-called scientists

collected for Big bang is using for inflation. A

simple analogy: Let us consider a linear diaphantine

equation L:ax+by = c, and this equation has many

intger solutions. A subset of this solution set is

also a solution of another equation M: lx+my = n,

where L and M are not parallel. This means that it is

very easy to tune the data as scanty evidence to the

present day cosmological problems.

Acceptance/Rejection of certain theory is another

issue.

 

 

 

> NONE-THE-LESS, I DO lend credence to the things I

>see from studying Vedic, as well as Chinese and

>Western astrology.

 

Vedaless vedic astrology and Indology veda-s + vedic

astrology take us to nowhere.

 

> I simply see different aspects, as I said,

> looking at each of them in turn.

 

I am not talking about astrological interpreations

based on seasons, or based on fixed nakshatra-s. I am

not a practising astrologer. Just I can understand the

analysis(like a elementary school student cross check

the integer solutions of a second degree diaphontine

eqn). jyOtiSa also falls under para vidya category.

Some people, they dont cast

horoscope(western/eastern), they are experts at

predicting accurately. I was raising "tropical vs

sidereal issue in terms of measuments", but not the

interpretations, because of para-apara vidya

categories.

 

 

> ARE being measured. I suggest you locate and read a

> couple of articles on a fairly recent modification

> to the "Big Bang" theory called "Inflation."

 

As I already stated in earlier post "bigbang

singularity to expanding universe". The so called

inflation theory is marriage of the best features of

big bang and the steady state scenarios. Again, this

inflation theory is also static, thus expanding

universe.

 

 

> They are in the April 2002 issues of "Discover" and

> "Astronomy" magazines. The theory these articles

> discuss posits that the "universe" came

> from quite literally - "nothing".

 

What is there beyond of these Universe(dark matter +

galaxy clusters + planets et al).

 

A well known science writer in USA has written that

our scientific model of the present universe may be

just as "faulty" as Columbus's map of earth. And

between modern cosmology and Vedic view, while there

are some similarities, there are great differences

too. Some examples:

 

Cosmologist's universe is static; Vedic brahmAnda

(that contains the whole universe) spins around a

central axis through 'hiraNyagarBha'.

 

Cosmologist's universe arose from an indescribable

singularity; Vedic universe from an Indescribable,

permanent, pure.

 

That One as Indescribable beyond words such as sat,

asat, raja, vyOma, mR`tyu, amR`tam, etc.; from such

Indescribable state came tama, then salilam (not

water, but primordial matter! What does modern

cosmology say? - some indescribable uniform

fundamental matter sea from a mathematical

singularity, it it not? Read the most respected

cosmologist in CalTech groping just as R`shi-s did);

then aekam mahimAn, desire, multiplicity, universe,

etc.) cf: nasadiya suktam.

 

 

The most fundamental particle, parent of all

fundamental particle we know today, arose in a uniform

sea from the singularity under tremendous heat (big

bang);

 

Vedic image is of a sea of salila -> Apa -> ka -> ma

-> la (not water of earth) with no such intense heat,

etc.

 

The notion of mandala-s and pariDhi-s is Vedic: sapta

pariDhi-s, agni-s, jihvA-s, R`Si-s, DhAma-s,

Aditya-sOma-vahni mandala-s, etc. That all celestial

bodies (not just this earth we live on) are mostly

spherical was known to mankind extremely long time

before Aristotle.

 

 

 

 

> Christianity, we are told that God >is

"everywhere", meaning that He sees and knows

>everything.

 

How do this church centric mindset justifies when they

wiped out over 100 million human beings/native

americans in the span of 50 years in-out of

hatred and biblical beliefs of racial supremacy.

 

Were not these religions see God in those 100 million

human beings?

 

Here are more examples:

 

Here are the examples: Greeks during Alexander

rampaged and murdered millions in the present Middle

East, Africa and Mediterrainean. Then the Roman

vs.Barbarian wars in Europe wiped out and/or enslaved

some more millions. There were famines too. In China

and India too there were ongoing turmoils but

relatively less than that in Europe. In the

Americas there were bloody quarrels (Maya-s, Inca-s,

native Indian intra-tribal wars, etc.). After the

onset of Christianity in Jerusalem, a new fight

started - between the followers of this new faith and

the older pagans, and millions of pagans were killed.

>From 5th century onwards it only got worse. After

Islam's entry in 7th century, all hell broke loose -

there were continuous crusades, tyranny

slavery, famines, and harm to every life element in

nature. By 15th century, Eurpoe's new barbarians were

going on their ships (target: the rich and world

famous Indica) and looting, raping, enslaving,

murdering wherever they set foot (Americas, Africa,

Asia). Several millions of native American Indians

were wiped out. Ditto in Africa. In India Muslim

armies killed over 5 million Hindus and destroyed

over 10,000 temples just as Christians had done in

Europe during their crusades and Muslims had avenged

it in Middle East and Spain. Yet it continued through

World War II when a few millions of Jews were done

with by the nazis.

 

Read Timur biography, you will notice more about

killings of humans in the name of abrahamic religions.

 

 

Thus crux of the difference between East and West

today is due to the Aristotelian logic of "no God here

 

in this universe, but God is outside of this

matter-energy ensembled universe and controls it".

There is no other fundamental difference.

 

> My own belief is that God IS everywhere, meaning

>that He literally IS everything that exists.

 

 

GOOD

 

With Regards,

VR

 

 

 

> This would explain, at least

> partially, how something

> so vast

> could come into existance from "nothing" (i.,e. -

> pure thought) and

> still

> have

> such magnificent "order". This also fits quite well

> with Mr.

> Goravani's

> note

> from several days ago - the one that started this

> discussion...

>

> And as far as your last question - well, I don't

> wish to fan flames...

>

> Best Regards,

> Martin Michaels

> -----------------------

> Sr. Systems Analyst

> Nirvana Consulting

> 317-902-9432

> gadgetcoder

>

> 'This work we do,

> It's not "rocket science"...

> It's much, MUCH harder.'

>

>

>

>

>

> venkateshwara_reddy

> [venkateshwara_reddy]

> Wednesday, September 04, 2002 3:57 PM

> gjlist

> Re: [GJ] RE: Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma

> and Pa, Again!

>

>

>

> > As I mentioned yesterday, I find that each other

> Zodiacal systems

> > has a different viewpoint, and hence, shows

> different aspects of

> our

> > "destiny". And I should point out also that as

> scientists have

> proven

> > in recent years, the galaxy IS, in fact, CHANGING

> - the stars

>

>

> Dont you see the word "relatively" fixed wrt earth

> and solar system

> in the post I appended on yesterday.

>

> Well, Vedic Cosomology declares that the

> universe(brahmaanda) is

> dynamic and is spinning around immobile

> axis(hiranyagarbha). One spin

> of our universe is called parivatsara.

>

> Temples were built on this very universe

> model(vyakta and avyakta

> universe).

>

> Our solar system, galaxy, galaxy cluster, super

> galaxy, galaxy super

> clusters are spinning and also orbiting around

> higher centre, as per

> Vedic Cosmology. For those geo-centric guys,

> seasonal calender become

> tropical zodiac, and it moves. Ah.

>

>

> Solar system also spinning? How much time it take

> for one spin? Do

> these so called scientists measure this, other than

> providing some

> scanty figure.

>

>

> The question here, geo-centric vs

> helio/galaxy/hiranyagarbha centric

> issur. Without this, we will end up in so called

> STATIC universe,

> thus bigbang singulary to expanding universe.

>

>

> Well, these constellations of stars are also part of

> some of the

> galaxy clusters? What are they?.

>

> This question leads to so called precession issues?

>

> What is the tropical precession of equinoxes? What

> is the sidereal

> precession of equinoxes? What are the measurements.

> Why dont these SO

> CALLED people in these lists probe sidereal,

> tropical durations of

> various cycles in this universe(day, year, axis

> precession, orbital

> precession, various ahOrAtri-s, varSa-s).

>

> Who is FOOLISH.

>

>

> Regards,

> VR

>

> themselves,

> > the Zodiac is changing - albeit slowly...just one

> more lesson on

> the

> > falseness of "absolutes"...

> >

> > Best Regards,

> > Martin Michaels

> >

> >

> > Venkateswara Reddy

> [venkateshwara_reddy]

> > Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:37 PM

> > gjlist

> > Cc: vedic astrology

> > [GJ] RE: Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma and

> Pa, Again!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Appended is the post borrowed from another egroup:

> >

> > ----------------

> > On the calendar issue, I feel the word "tropical

> > zodiac" is a misnomer. Tropical (i.e., seasonal)

> > calendar originated in Greece is a primitive

> notion of

> > keeping track of days wrt seasons only. Hence

> > primitive notions such as "zodiac" moves, and so

> on.

> > Even in modern astronomy, or Inertial reference

> > frames, these notions are JOKES, but the primitive

> > MacCaulay west clings to its Greek wisdom. Let it

> be

> > so, we need not even address it...Just ignore it

> as

> > some child's prank...

> >

> > There is only one zodiac.

> >

> > Zodiac, i.e., stars in the sky are "relatively"

> fixed

> > wrt earth and aaditya mandala. That it is the

> other

> > way around is the Ptolemy mind of Greece. We must

> use

> > this "fixed" star base as the definition of the

> term

> > "zodiac". Then the misnomer goes away. The Greek &

> > western error is to see the seasonal framework as

> > "fixed".

> >

> >

> -------------------

> >

> >

> >

> > gjlist, Das Goravani <das@g...> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > It struct me now: The Vedic Zodiac, based in

> stars,

> >

> > > insensitive to, and thus needing adjustment to,

> the

> > tilt of

> > > the Earth which causes a new "perceived and

> > moveable" Zodiac

> > > to be around us always, the perceived Zodiac,

> the

> > Western

> > > Zodiac, where Matriarchy, the circle, ruled, the

> > tilt, is a

> > > circular wobble, causing seasons, changes,

> motion,

> > movement,

> > > precession backwards the Patriarchy feels,

> movement

> > forward

> > > the world feels.

> > >

> > > What is an equinox? It's a perception, which

> > happens at the

> > > whim of the circular wobble, do you see?

> > >

> > > Our "real" living life we perceive NOW is based

> on

> > Western

> > > Zodiac.

> > >

> > > The karmic original powerful and dominant Zodiac

> is

> > yet

> > > another thing.

> > >

> > > By the one we know our father, by the other, our

> > mother.

> > >

> > > This is very significant. Neither alone is

> complete.

> > >

> > > The truth hurts, to those who are it's enemies.

> > >

> > > By one half of reality alone you will not know

> your

> > current

> > > self, but only your self in relation to leaving

> this

> > world

> > > or staying in it, which may be not in your

> present

> > reality,

> > > which may be the mix, or gradual progress.

> > Patriarchy is

> > > perhaps, the dark night of the soul. For the

> night

> > isn't

> > > dark to those one with mothers dark half.

> > >

> > > Some say, "Western is better for personality".

> This

> > is a

> > > dumbed-down-over-time way of saying what is

> perhaps

> > quite

> > > true, and better said as "Western shows you your

> > position in

> > > the current relative living world of perception

> with

> > peer

> > > humans", and Vedic shows you "You position in

> > relationship

> > > to the absolute and eternal non perceived

> reality".

> > >

> > > These statements could of couse be improved

> finer,

> > more

> > > educated thinking.

> > >

> > > I find this realization quite scientific, though

> > such

> > > support I'm not going into much here. I find

> this

> > > realization quite significant because of science

> as

> > well as

> > > mystical reasons and rationale.

> > >

> > > I am "tripping on" the play of these two halves

> of

> > the

> > > whole. I am trying these days to see the basic

> Hora

> > > division, night and day, male and female, in

> things,

> > so

> > > excuse the focus there, it's my current study.

> > >

> > > I do think, Western Zodiac is more "Mother" and

> > Eastern,

> > > Sidereal, more "Father". They spawn the likened

> two

> > kinds of

> > > ways of thinking- perilistic, ominous, verse

> > malable,

> > > mutable, relative to us now here. Water, is

> > adjusting, more

> > > related to mother, and there's more water up

> North.

> > The

> > > Earth is drier, harder, more deserts exist,

> where

> > the Sun,

> > > the Patriarchy, originates from and is still

> > stronger today.

> > > The wet and emotional "new age" movement does

> not

> > arise in

> > > Lahore, or Delhi, or Cairo, or Israel's old

> guard.

> > No, it

> > > arises in Wet Eugene, with little hippies in

> > dreadlocks. I

> > > have always been a child of the Green, the

> Water,

> > the wet. I

> > > have always taken to this stuff. The way Krishna

> is,

> > so

> > > covered with flowers, girlfriends, music,

> passion,

> > cows,

> > > love and abilities chivalrously splendid, is all

> > very

> > > Celtic, and wet, and covered with turns and

> twists,

> > dirt

> > > between toes, not straight roman roads. To

> "Preach"

> > for

> > > Krishna is just about a perfect oximoron. These

> > splits of

> > > the two halves living in me have split me in

> two,

> > but that's

> > > OK, it's all good learning.

> > >

> > > The earliest authors of our time, Greek

> historians,

> > wrote of

> > > Celts "they are tall, very white and wet

> skinned".

> > >

> > > Things are white and wet where there is no Sun

> (ie,

> > ocean

> > > bottom)

> > >

> > > Celts do not digest fat properly, they need

> certain

> > fish or

> > > the oil from certain seeds, otherwise, they

> actually

> > feel

> > > bad. A developed genetic disposition to a

> certain

> > diet,

> > > showing certain karmic alignments for those with

> > eyes.

> > >

> > > And from where and whom do Celts trace their

> > ancestry?

> > >

> > > The Sun, one day, met the Moon, and after

> > subjegating it,

> > > retired in exaustion. The moon, not caring that

> it

> > was

> > > subjegated, such being it's normal state, cared

> for

> > the Sun

> > > while he slept.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hope this is interesting. I think so.

> > >

> > > By the way, according to most calculations,

> there

> > was an

> > > "alignment" around 300 AD say. This is a very

> key

> > time in

> > > history. I suggest everyone look into what was

> going

> > on on

> > > an emotional level for all of the Western world

> at

> > that

> > > time, all of Europe. Very very interesting. That

> was

> > when

> > > the great Patriarch fell out of control of the

> West,

> > Europe

> > > that is, and the "Natives" began again their old

> > ways,

> > > without Romans, but in the wake of their total

> > dominance and

> > > presence. It was a time when "Mother" got ahold

> > again of all

> > > her Western Children, without "Father" around,

> but

> > all his

> > > forts, roads, and systems were in place, never

> to

> > again go

> > > away. It was a balance point folks. Quite

> > significant one.

> > > You and I are literally living in the wake of

> those

> > events

> > > of those days. They were VERY Pivotal.

> > >

> > > For example, that IS when Germany took over

> England.

> > It did

> > > happen. Germans took over, and to this day,

> that's

> > who's

> > > there, and that's who conquered India, and the

> > world, the

> > > British, are essentially predominantly Germanic

> > people. The

> > > Celts however did at that time gain and have

> > remained since,

> > > confined in a way to the Western edges, in all

> ways,

> >

> > > cultural, blood, art, etc. That is when Saxxons

> and

> > Celts

> > > began to really intermingle heavily, for better

> or

> > worse, in

> > > Europe, and they worked out their stuff slowly

> to

> > this day.

> > > They are the two halves of the West, the

> brethren of

> > magic,

> > > the Celts, and the brethren of control, the

> Saxxons.

> > They

> > > are the male and female half of the West whereas

> > India and

> > > other are the male and female halves of the east

> > perhaps. I

> > > am trying to see this broad divisions at this

> time,

> > it's

> > > generalization, but it's helpful for

> understanding

> > basic

> > > directional impulses in ourselves always.

> > >

> > > It is VERY significant what happened when the

> two

> > zodiacs

> > > aligned. Study it. VERY interesting. I'm hinting

> at

> > a

> > > possible ocean of understanding for us here, I

> > think, maybe?

> > >

> > > Note that Germany hit the Celts "From the East".

>

> > Note that

> > > Ireland, the most protected by distance, a

> > sanctuary, was

> > > the least and last hit, and the last to hold a

> > strong

> > > ancient blood line and culture which shows how

> > Eastern the

> > > West used to be, how Matriarchal, how mystical,

> how

> > > feminine, which is why the dominant masculine

> > cultures

> > > letters, musical systems, thought systems,

> dominate

> > here

> > > today, because we were actually originally too

> weak,

> > too

> > > feminine, and both the Germans and Romans could

> have

> > there

> > > ways with us, so Rome jumped in, and Germany

> took it

> > later,

> > > showing that Rome had the Mars, of the two, and

> > Germany the

> > > Saturn, of the two, who are both otherwise

> dominant

> > and

> > > strong in nature originally, or solar.

> > >

> > > Of the two Irelands, Scotland and Ireland,

> Scotland

> > is more

> > > dominant, and thus, we see, Hilly, whereas

> Ireland

> > is flat

> > > to the point of ridiculed and jest. Do you see

> the

> > omens?

> > > They teach, instruct, they are real.

> > >

> > > In America, thousands of years ago, a Native

> stood

> > on the

> > > shore in Washington state, and looked out across

> the

> >

> > > Pacific, and saw thus: Over there, in the East,

> > they have

> > > huge palaces and highly organized religious and

> > materially

> > > successful societies, but they are all part of,

> and

> > > development of personal strengths and virtues,

> > relationship

> > > with mother Earth, are less. Conformity is more.

>

> > Down South

> > > of me, our brothers, also are like that, they

> build

> > alot, in

> > > square arrangements, and they have

> centralization

> > thus,

> > > whereas here in the North, we do not. We

> struggle

> > more with

> > > nature, and know her better, for we must work

> with

> > her, and

> > > always have. But a new time has come, after so

> long,

> > the two

> > > halves will now meet. Something that is

> happening

> > now

> > > starting as always in the East, will soon reach

> us

> > here in

> > > the West, and for a long time, it shall have to

> be

> > sorted

> > > out in all of us, the contact, the balance, the

> > aligning of

> > > the two halves of ourselves, the circle, and

> square,

> > mother,

> > > father, male, female, dominating, dominated.

> > >

> > > Likewise, Druids in France studied the phenom,

> and

> > saw it

> > > coming, and predicted what has happened, and is

> > happening.

> > >

> > > We have realized: We came from father, but we

> are

> > on

> > > mother, and on her we depend. Father continues

> to

> > provide,

> > > but mother is our home, the breast we suckle. We

> > have both

> > > sides in ourselves, and must honor both. We must

> > straighten

> > > our matters each day, and then mix them up

> again,

> > when the

> > > Sun sets. Brush and clean your hair, then tie

> it in

> > knots

> > > with sticks and other things mixed in. Know your

> > blade, and

> > > put it away. Count your money, and forget about

> it.

> > >

> > > BOTH.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > --

> > >

> > >

> > > Das Goravani

> > > Roik

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

> > http://finance.

> >

> >

> >

> > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat

> Sat

> > :

> gjlist-@e...

> >

> >

> >

> > Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

>

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat

> Sat

> :

> gjlist-@e...

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

> --- End forwarded message ---

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

http://finance.

 

 

 

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

: gjlist-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

> gjlist, "MICHAELS, MARTIN (AIT)"

> <mm6365@s...> wrote:

> Let us simply agree to disagree... Neither of us

> can truly "prove" our beliefs, which are the

> products of both our individual studies and

> cultural backgrounds

 

Of course, each of us is entitled to his own beliefs,

imageries, biases, or limited exposure.

 

 

Let us keep aside static(expanding) vs

dynamic(hiranyagarbha centric) issue.

 

 

This thread started with tropical zodiac vs. sidereal

zodiac.

 

Let these egroup members measure various cycles, I

mentioned in earlier post(I appended again) using this

very tropical zodiac(another reference frame).

 

 

A basic relativity thought experiment would be enough

to understand "what is reference frame".

 

-----------------

> Assume that Tropical zodiac is another reference

> frame, here are my questions?

>

> What is the length of

> -Tropical day

> -Tropical month

> -Tropical year(define the same)

> -Tropical precession of equinoxes

> -Tropical yuga-s, manvantara-s, kalpa-s

> -Tropical day of various graha-s in our solar

> system.

> -Tropical years of various graha-s in our solar

> system

>

> A scientific examination into this with physics(a

> basic insight into reference frames)/astronomy would

> reveal as to what is tropical zodiac.

>

_--------

 

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

http://finance.

[Guest guest]

How can you equate "static" with "expanding?" These are not at all the

same.

 

Martin

 

 

 

Venkateswara Reddy [venkateshwara_reddy]

Saturday, September 07, 2002 1:35 PM

gjlist

RE: [GJ] Two Zodiacs? Perhaps it's Ma and Pa, Again!

 

 

 

> gjlist, "MICHAELS, MARTIN (AIT)"

> <mm6365@s...> wrote:

> Let us simply agree to disagree... Neither of us

> can truly "prove" our beliefs, which are the

> products of both our individual studies and

> cultural backgrounds

 

Of course, each of us is entitled to his own beliefs,

imageries, biases, or limited exposure.

 

 

Let us keep aside static(expanding) vs

dynamic(hiranyagarbha centric) issue.

 

 

This thread started with tropical zodiac vs. sidereal

zodiac.

 

Let these egroup members measure various cycles, I

mentioned in earlier post(I appended again) using this

very tropical zodiac(another reference frame).

 

 

A basic relativity thought experiment would be enough

to understand "what is reference frame".

 

-----------------

> Assume that Tropical zodiac is another reference

> frame, here are my questions?

>

> What is the length of

> -Tropical day

> -Tropical month

> -Tropical year(define the same)

> -Tropical precession of equinoxes

> -Tropical yuga-s, manvantara-s, kalpa-s

> -Tropical day of various graha-s in our solar

> system.

> -Tropical years of various graha-s in our solar

> system

>

> A scientific examination into this with physics(a

> basic insight into reference frames)/astronomy would

> reveal as to what is tropical zodiac.

>

_--------

 

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

http://finance.

 

 

 

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

: gjlist-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to