Guest guest Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Dear Vivek, While it is commonly stated that Arudha lagnas represent 'maya' of the matter concerned, as you wrote, I think that the term wasn't happilly chosen one, that's in fact misleading one- as your question confirms- You asked 'Is this the only purpose of AL?'- i.e how the world perceives us- and the answer is definitevely No. There is more to that. AL stands for many things and can be analyzed /and that's advisable/ as an independemt chart-AL chart is equally sensitive to transits, and the impact is visible in substiantial manner, in real-life experiences, and not as an 'imaginery', perception-beyond/mundane, material/ reality, as the term may wrongly imply. Lagna and AL are equally real- the fact that we are perceived by AL /or A5 in the matter concerned/ makes it to some extent 'even more real'- I'll use an example from previous discussion on the List, since you are familiar with that one, third from AL indicates the manner of death /and that's real stuff, you'd agree!/- So, if you are going to determine longevity, you go to natal chart determinants, of course, but you should always see what's going on in AL when that' s to happen. For marriage compatibility, lenght of marriage you look at Upapada Lagna- for marriage info in general, you look Navasma- I haven't seen any clear definition on what's the difference btw two sets of Lagnas, so far, and cannot give you a conclusive response. What I am going to tell you is my understanding of the issue: First give/s/ info on a more profound level /and therefore are more symbolic in nature-having said that I interpret what I understand as a rationale for using AL's D's in addition to Natal/- plus, natal and Navasma symbols cover too broad a range of potential experience to be easily 'deciphered'- and UL /AL's in general/ give/s/ info closer to living day-to day experience and manifestations are easier to perceive. Hope this helps. Anna - "Vivek " <keviv90 (AT) rediffmail (DOT) com> <gjlist> Wednesday, April 16, 2003 3:26 AM [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna > Hi,> From what I understand,a house in natal chart shows your reality > regarding that house matters WHILE the arudha pada of that house > shows how you are perceived as by the world or society regarding > that house matters.> thus 5th house shows your intelligence -- arudha pada of 5th house > shows how intelligent people think you are.> Is this the only purpose of AL?> Vivek.> > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat> To , send an email to: gjlist-> http://www.goravani.com> > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2003 Report Share Posted April 19, 2003 Dear Ann and Vivek, Interesting discussion re: Arudha lagna. May I pose a question here? Anna, you state that the lagna and AL both stand for real things, and your position re: AL in that regard is well-taken. Accepting this, then, the next most logical question would be: 1. The karaka for the lagna (i.e. truth/reality) is the Sun. There are no controversies here. 2. If that is the case, then what would be the karaka for the Arudha lagna if, as you say, it also stands for truth/reality (in your opinion)? Best wishes, Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or Ph: 541.318.0248 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2003 Report Share Posted April 19, 2003 Dear Robert, I understand your questions- I have lots of them, too: re ALs and D charts, length of year /360 vs. 365/, numerous Dasa systems, let alone various ayanamsas, etc. As you know there is no answer to these questions. Lots of Jyotish concepts, from various schools, and from 'integrative approach' of SJC as well /that you also represent/, or due to the fact that it is 'eclectic' in nature even more so, do not provide firm theoretical frame. And in most jyotish concepts we depend on /justified/ trust in Parashara and Jaimini- even if we are unable to formulate 'logical' explanation /at least at the moment, at least in theory/ for some of their statements. So, why do you think that I am supposed to provide theoretical framework for Arudha Lagnas - or any other- concept /in this particular case/ when, as far as I know, neither you nor others, who use them, haven't done so far? In fact in my attempt to explain ALs to Vivek I did make some guesses, as they appeared to me. How long/if I will use them in the future, depends on results I'd have with them. You obviously use them, and that means that you've found them 'workable'- I've seen your and Narsimha discussion on predicting the death from AL analysis- so you should be better able to give the answer to the question bellow- if it's not only rhetorical, as, sorry Robert, it appears to me. Plese read my post again- and you'll find an attempt to formulate what ALs stand for, and therefore meaning of 'real' 'reality' truth' are more descriptive that defining- Failure to notice that leads to argument for the sake of argument, and is not worth attention/time. If you have better explanation, we all would benefit from your sharing, and I would appreciate that very much, too. In other words, I am itching to hear from you 'how real is real' and get well rounded definition of ALs- that would contribute to our knowledge a lot. Thanks, Anna Robert A. Koch gjlist Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:08 PM Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/ Dear Ann and Vivek, Interesting discussion re: Arudha lagna. May I pose a question here? Anna, you state that the lagna and AL both stand for real things, and your position re: AL in that regard is well-taken. Accepting this, then, the next most logical question would be: 1. The karaka for the lagna (i.e. truth/reality) is the Sun. There are no controversies here. 2. If that is the case, then what would be the karaka for the Arudha lagna if, as you say, it also stands for truth/reality (in your opinion)? Best wishes,Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or Ph: 541.318.0248Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo , send an email to: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 Hello Robert and Anna, Perception and reality cannot be different in some cases.Length of life for example. I wish I could get an exact definition of AL. I recollect a statement I saw while searching on the net for Arudha lagna:- "When ketu transits the trines of arudha lagna,he gives moksha-gati" So what is the significance of the trines of AL? On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 N. wrote : >Dear Robert, > >I understand your questions- I have lots of them, too: re ALs and >D charts, length of year /360 vs. 365/, numerous Dasa systems, >let alone various ayanamsas, etc. >As you know there is no answer to these questions. Lots of >Jyotish concepts, from various schools, and from 'integrative >approach' of SJC as well /that you also represent/, or due to >the fact that it is 'eclectic' in nature even more so, do not >provide firm theoretical frame. And in most jyotish concepts we >depend on /justified/ trust in Parashara and Jaimini- even if we >are unable to formulate 'logical' explanation /at least at the >moment, at least in theory/ for some of their statements. > >So, why do you think that I am supposed to provide theoretical >framework for Arudha Lagnas - or any other- concept /in this >particular case/ when, as far as I know, neither you nor others, >who use them, haven't done so far? In fact in my attempt to >explain ALs to Vivek I did make some guesses, as they appeared to >me. How long/if I will use them in the future, depends on results >I'd have with them. You obviously use them, and that means that >you've found them 'workable'- I've seen your and Narsimha >discussion on predicting the death from AL analysis- so you >should be better able to give the answer to the question bellow- >if it's not only rhetorical, as, sorry Robert, it appears to >me. > >Plese read my post again- and you'll find an attempt to formulate >what ALs stand for, and therefore meaning of 'real' 'reality' >truth' are more descriptive that defining- Failure to notice that >leads to argument for the sake of argument, and is not worth >attention/time. >If you have better explanation, we all would benefit from your >sharing, and I would appreciate that very much, too. > >In other words, I am itching to hear from you 'how real is real' >and get well rounded definition of ALs- that would contribute to >our knowledge a lot. > >Thanks, >Anna > > > > > > Robert A. Koch > gjlist > Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:08 PM > Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/ > > > Dear Ann and Vivek, > > Interesting discussion re: Arudha lagna. May I pose a >question here? Anna, you state that the lagna and AL both stand >for real things, and your position re: AL in that regard is >well-taken. Accepting this, then, the next most logical question >would be: > > 1. The karaka for the lagna (i.e. truth/reality) is the Sun. >There are no controversies here. > 2. If that is the case, then what would be the karaka for >the Arudha lagna if, as you say, it also stands for truth/reality >(in your opinion)? > > > Best wishes, > Robert > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer > Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA > visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, > http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or > Ph: 541.318.0248 > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : >gjlist- > > > > Terms of >Service. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 ~OM~ Dear Vivek I remember a famous quote "Cowards die many times but the brave taste of death but once"...so you will agree that the perception of death (mrityu) or near death (apa-mrityu) will vary from one chart to another. So even in death, perception and reality differ. For how many years have we speculated whether the great Subhash Chandra Bose is actually dead? For how many years do we wonder on how Chaitanya Mahaprabhu left this world. He just walked into the idol of Jagannath!! can you perceive or imagine this. Even in death, an event, perceptions differ. When someone dies, most lament, some enemies delight, and most don't care. The reality is the same for all yet the perception is different. This is not an easy topic and most people avoid it. But it is worth thinking as no one can give a perfect answer...after all who knows Satya or the perfect truth, what we all understand is half truths. With best wishes, Sanjay Rath ------------------------ H-5 B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India +91-674-2436871; Webpages:http://srath.com http://.org ------------------ ---- Hello Robert and Anna,Perception and reality cannot be different in some cases.Length of life for example.I wish I could get an exact definition of AL.I recollect a statement I saw while searching on the net for Arudha lagna:- "When ketu transits the trines of arudha lagna,he gives moksha-gati"So what is the significance of the trines of AL?On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 N. wrote :>Dear Robert,>>I understand your questions- I have lots of them, too: re ALs and >D charts, length of year /360 vs. 365/, numerous Dasa systems, >let alone various ayanamsas, etc.>As you know there is no answer to these questions. Lots of >Jyotish concepts, from various schools, and from 'integrative >approach' of SJC as well /that you also represent/, or due to >the fact that it is 'eclectic' in nature even more so, do not >provide firm theoretical frame. And in most jyotish concepts we >depend on /justified/ trust in Parashara and Jaimini- even if we >are unable to formulate 'logical' explanation /at least at the >moment, at least in theory/ for some of their statements.>>So, why do you think that I am supposed to provide theoretical >framework for Arudha Lagnas - or any other- concept /in this >particular case/ when, as far as I know, neither you nor others, >who use them, haven't done so far? In fact in my attempt to >explain ALs to Vivek I did make some guesses, as they appeared to >me. How long/if I will use them in the future, depends on results >I'd have with them. You obviously use them, and that means that >you've found them 'workable'- I've seen your and Narsimha >discussion on predicting the death from AL analysis- so you >should be better able to give the answer to the question bellow- >if it's not only rhetorical, as, sorry Robert, it appears to >me.>>Plese read my post again- and you'll find an attempt to formulate >what ALs stand for, and therefore meaning of 'real' 'reality' >truth' are more descriptive that defining- Failure to notice that >leads to argument for the sake of argument, and is not worth >attention/time.>If you have better explanation, we all would benefit from your >sharing, and I would appreciate that very much, too.>>In other words, I am itching to hear from you 'how real is real' >and get well rounded definition of ALs- that would contribute to >our knowledge a lot.>>Thanks,>Anna>>> >>> Robert A. Koch> gjlist> Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:08 PM> Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/>>> Dear Ann and Vivek,>> Interesting discussion re: Arudha lagna. May I pose a >question here? Anna, you state that the lagna and AL both stand >for real things, and your position re: AL in that regard is >well-taken. Accepting this, then, the next most logical question >would be:>> 1. The karaka for the lagna (i.e. truth/reality) is the Sun. >There are no controversies here.> 2. If that is the case, then what would be the karaka for >the Arudha lagna if, as you say, it also stands for truth/reality >(in your opinion)?>>> Best wishes,> Robert>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer> Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA> visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and,> http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or> Ph: 541.318.0248>>>> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat> : gjlist-">>gjlist-> http://www.goravani.com>>> Terms of >Service.>Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo , send an email to: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to . __ IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here Attachment: (image/gif) IMSTP.gif [not stored] Attachment: (Image/gif) BackGrnd.gif [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2003 Report Share Posted April 21, 2003 Om gurave namah Dear Jyotishi The following explanation from Sanjay is very useful in understanding the Arudha. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Pearl ---------- ---------------- The "What of the event or the event definition" is intricately linked to Karma and the cycle of rebirth where the anubhava (experiences) that the Mana & Atma have to undergo are based on (a) Past Karma manifestation which is Karma and (b) Iccha Shakti, with the latter being dependant on a host of factors including Gyana, bhakti and a host of other factors. In Jyotish terminology, this is the Lagna & Graha factors playing in various signs and houses (and affecting the experience of the Atma) and in various nakshatra (and affecting the experiences for the Mana). The Purusha and Chaitanya are better words to explain this in a nutshell. The "How of the event" relates to its manifestation in this world. This is the Arudha lagna and the various Arudha, varnada, Special ascendants and all other illusionarey bodies including illusionary planets (Upagraha). The how is linked to the way Prakriti with her three Guna will manifest through the tatwa etc. The experience will reach the Mana through the five indriya's and this can be happy or sad depending on our temporal perception of what the How should have been (the anticipation or expectation of an event or the natural conditioning for receiving perceptions related to the event). For example, a person who fells he has done well in an exam finds he has failed, this news or event reaches him through various possible sources, and the methodology of these sources influencing his indriyas is the How of the event. Finally the When and this is dependant on the Mana or what we call as DASA. This is what jyotish is all about. The best way is to ask oneself: (a) What is going to happen, (b) How will it happen, and © When will it happen? Cutting this short. Just grow on this seed. Best Wishes Sanjay ---------- -------------- om tat sat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2003 Report Share Posted April 22, 2003 Dear sanjay, I agree with you. My understanding is that Natal chart being karmic position at birth,it shows the KARMIC side --- that is a house in the chart will show things from a karmic angle,the matters of that house. Whereas the arudha pada of that house will show it from the EVENT angle. Perceptions differ to such an extent that the same event can cause either joy or suffering. For example:- Death of a spouse.Externally it may be seen that the person is mourning but the person may actually be rejoicing! If rejoicing is the case,it could be the result of good past karma. So it is basically KARMIC ANGLE V/S EVENT ANGLE. Am I right? Best regards, vivek. On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 Sanjay Rath wrote : > > >~OM~ >Dear Vivek >I remember a famous quote >"Cowards die many times but the brave taste of death but >once"...so you will >agree that the perception of death (mrityu) or near death >(apa-mrityu) will >vary from one chart to another. So even in death, perception and >reality >differ. >For how many years have we speculated whether the great Subhash >Chandra Bose >is actually dead? For how many years do we wonder on how >Chaitanya >Mahaprabhu left this world. He just walked into the idol of >Jagannath!! can >you perceive or imagine this. >Even in death, an event, perceptions differ. When someone dies, >most lament, >some enemies delight, and most don't care. The reality is the >same for all >yet the perception is different. >This is not an easy topic and most people avoid it. But it is >worth thinking >as no one can give a perfect answer...after all who knows Satya >or the >perfect truth, what we all understand is half truths. >With best wishes, >Sanjay Rath >------------------------ >H-5 B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India >+91-674-2436871; >Webpages:http://srath.com http://.org >------------------ >---- > > gjlist >Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:15:41 PM >gjlist >Re: Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/ > >Hello Robert and Anna, >Perception and reality cannot be different in some cases.Length >of >life for example. >I wish I could get an exact definition of AL. >I recollect a statement I saw while searching on the net for >Arudha lagna:- "When ketu transits the trines of arudha >lagna,he >gives moksha-gati" >So what is the significance of the trines of AL? > >On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 N. wrote : > >Dear Robert, > > > >I understand your questions- I have lots of them, too: re ALs >and > >D charts, length of year /360 vs. 365/, numerous Dasa >systems, > >let alone various ayanamsas, etc. > >As you know there is no answer to these questions. Lots of > >Jyotish concepts, from various schools, and from 'integrative > >approach' of SJC as well /that you also represent/, or due to > >the fact that it is 'eclectic' in nature even more so, do not > >provide firm theoretical frame. And in most jyotish concepts >we > >depend on /justified/ trust in Parashara and Jaimini- even if >we > >are unable to formulate 'logical' explanation /at least at >the > >moment, at least in theory/ for some of their statements. > > > >So, why do you think that I am supposed to provide >theoretical > >framework for Arudha Lagnas - or any other- concept /in this > >particular case/ when, as far as I know, neither you nor >others, > >who use them, haven't done so far? In fact in my attempt to > >explain ALs to Vivek I did make some guesses, as they appeared >to > >me. How long/if I will use them in the future, depends on >results > >I'd have with them. You obviously use them, and that means >that > >you've found them 'workable'- I've seen your and Narsimha > >discussion on predicting the death from AL analysis- so you > >should be better able to give the answer to the question >bellow- > >if it's not only rhetorical, as, sorry Robert, it appears to > >me. > > > >Plese read my post again- and you'll find an attempt to >formulate > >what ALs stand for, and therefore meaning of 'real' 'reality' > >truth' are more descriptive that defining- Failure to notice >that > >leads to argument for the sake of argument, and is not worth > >attention/time. > >If you have better explanation, we all would benefit from >your > >sharing, and I would appreciate that very much, too. > > > >In other words, I am itching to hear from you 'how real is >real' > >and get well rounded definition of ALs- that would contribute >to > >our knowledge a lot. > > > >Thanks, > >Anna > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert A. Koch > > gjlist > > Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:08 PM > > Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/ > > > > > > Dear Ann and Vivek, > > > > Interesting discussion re: Arudha lagna. May I pose a > >question here? Anna, you state that the lagna and AL both >stand > >for real things, and your position re: AL in that regard is > >well-taken. Accepting this, then, the next most logical >question > >would be: > > > > 1. The karaka for the lagna (i.e. truth/reality) is the Sun. > >There are no controversies here. > > 2. If that is the case, then what would be the karaka for > >the Arudha lagna if, as you say, it also stands for >truth/reality > >(in your opinion)? > > > > > > Best wishes, > > Robert > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer > > Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA > > visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, > > http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or > > Ph: 541.318.0248 > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > : > >gjlist- > > > > > > > > Terms of > >Service. > > > > > > > > > > >Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat >: >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > >. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2003 Report Share Posted April 22, 2003 ~OM~ Dear Vivek, Karma really cannot be dissociated with the events in such a manner, but prima facie, you are right in your thinking. I will give an illustration of my point. Take the sixth house: Natural good (what people call benefic, but actually Subha like Jupiter, Ketu, Vemus, Mercury and Moon) planets placed there indicate one who shall be freed from the troubles of the sixth house by the deity indicated by the planet. All 'Agantuka drista' roga/satru shall vanish at the smile of such a strong and good planet. However, an exactly similar situation occuring from AL is the most terrible. If the planet in the sixth from AL or its lord is a natural benefic and is strong, then the native is tormented by enemies. Here, both the situations are karmic as they indicate the manifestation of karma but the analysis of the result is exactly the opposite. Another example: Chandra kala nadi says that for Libra lagna native, the great blessing is the strength of exalted Jupiter as the enemies will flee like elephants running from a battlefield. Now, if Libra is the Arudha Lagna, then the exactly opposite situation would arise if the sixth lord were exalted. This may seem easy to understand, but in application, this is the key to Raj-jyotish. Take the chart of K N Rao for example. He has Libra Lagna with Venus in it and Jupiter in the 10th house in exaltation and Mercury in the 12th house in exaltation. From the Lagna, the sixth lord Jupiter is exalted and this may seem fantastic, but look at it from Arudha Lagna. The AL is in Cancer with the sixth lord Jupiter in exaltation. Thus, Jupiter has the power to destroy all enemies (as lord of Pisces) or to destroy him and promote enemies (as lord of Sagittarius)....how would you decide what Jupiter is going to do? Mercury is going to teach him the spiritual way and in exaltation in third from AL gives pravrajya in the positive sense and defeat in the battle of sansara in the material sense. His differences with B V Raman started in Mercury dasa. The end result was a forgone conclusion as during the dasa of a natural benefic (subha, good) planet exalted in the 3rd or 6th from AL, it is foolish to fight with anyone as the native is surely defeated. With best wishes, Sanjay Rath ------------------------ H-5 B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India +91-674-2436871; Webpages:http://srath.com http://.org ------------------ ---- Dear sanjay,I agree with you.My understanding is that Natal chart being karmic position at birth,it shows the KARMIC side --- that is a house in the chart will show things from a karmic angle,the matters of that house.Whereas the arudha pada of that house will show it from the EVENT angle.Perceptions differ to such an extent that the same event can cause either joy or suffering.For example:- Death of a spouse.Externally it may be seen that the person is mourning but the person may actually be rejoicing!If rejoicing is the case,it could be the result of good past karma.So it is basically KARMIC ANGLE V/S EVENT ANGLE.Am I right?Best regards,vivek.On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 Sanjay Rath wrote :>>>~OM~>Dear Vivek>I remember a famous quote>"Cowards die many times but the brave taste of death but >once"...so you will>agree that the perception of death (mrityu) or near death >(apa-mrityu) will>vary from one chart to another. So even in death, perception and >reality>differ.>For how many years have we speculated whether the great Subhash >Chandra Bose>is actually dead? For how many years do we wonder on how >Chaitanya>Mahaprabhu left this world. He just walked into the idol of >Jagannath!! can>you perceive or imagine this.>Even in death, an event, perceptions differ. When someone dies, >most lament,>some enemies delight, and most don't care. The reality is the >same for all>yet the perception is different.>This is not an easy topic and most people avoid it. But it is >worth thinking>as no one can give a perfect answer...after all who knows Satya >or the>perfect truth, what we all understand is half truths.>With best wishes,>Sanjay Rath>------------------------>H-5 B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India>+91-674-2436871;>Webpages:http://srath.com http://.org>------------------>-------Original Message------->> gjlist>Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:15:41 PM>gjlist>Re: Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/>>Hello Robert and Anna,>Perception and reality cannot be different in some cases.Length >of>life for example.>I wish I could get an exact definition of AL.>I recollect a statement I saw while searching on the net for>Arudha lagna:- "When ketu transits the trines of arudha >lagna,he>gives moksha-gati">So what is the significance of the trines of AL?>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 N. wrote :> >Dear Robert,> >> >I understand your questions- I have lots of them, too: re ALs >and> >D charts, length of year /360 vs. 365/, numerous Dasa >systems,> >let alone various ayanamsas, etc.> >As you know there is no answer to these questions. Lots of> >Jyotish concepts, from various schools, and from 'integrative> >approach' of SJC as well /that you also represent/, or due to> >the fact that it is 'eclectic' in nature even more so, do not> >provide firm theoretical frame. And in most jyotish concepts >we> >depend on /justified/ trust in Parashara and Jaimini- even if >we> >are unable to formulate 'logical' explanation /at least at >the> >moment, at least in theory/ for some of their statements.> >> >So, why do you think that I am supposed to provide >theoretical> >framework for Arudha Lagnas - or any other- concept /in this> >particular case/ when, as far as I know, neither you nor >others,> >who use them, haven't done so far? In fact in my attempt to> >explain ALs to Vivek I did make some guesses, as they appeared >to> >me. How long/if I will use them in the future, depends on >results> >I'd have with them. You obviously use them, and that means >that> >you've found them 'workable'- I've seen your and Narsimha> >discussion on predicting the death from AL analysis- so you> >should be better able to give the answer to the question >bellow-> >if it's not only rhetorical, as, sorry Robert, it appears to> >me.> >> >Plese read my post again- and you'll find an attempt to >formulate> >what ALs stand for, and therefore meaning of 'real' 'reality'> >truth' are more descriptive that defining- Failure to notice >that> >leads to argument for the sake of argument, and is not worth> >attention/time.> >If you have better explanation, we all would benefit from >your> >sharing, and I would appreciate that very much, too.> >> >In other words, I am itching to hear from you 'how real is >real'> >and get well rounded definition of ALs- that would contribute >to> >our knowledge a lot.> >> >Thanks,> >Anna> >> >> > > >> >> > Robert A. Koch> > gjlist> > Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:08 PM> > Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/> >> >> > Dear Ann and Vivek,> >> > Interesting discussion re: Arudha lagna. May I pose a> >question here? Anna, you state that the lagna and AL both >stand> >for real things, and your position re: AL in that regard is> >well-taken. Accepting this, then, the next most logical >question> >would be:> >> > 1. The karaka for the lagna (i.e. truth/reality) is the Sun.> >There are no controversies here.> > 2. If that is the case, then what would be the karaka for> >the Arudha lagna if, as you say, it also stands for >truth/reality> >(in your opinion)?> >> >> > Best wishes,> > Robert> >> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> > Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer> > Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA> > visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and,> > http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or> > Ph: 541.318.0248> >> >> >> > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat> > :> >gjlist-> > http://www.goravani.com>'>http://www.goravani.com> >> >> > Your use of is subject to the Terms of> >Service.> >>>>>>>>>>Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat>: gjlist-">>gjlist->http://www.goravani.com>>>Your use of is subject to >>>>.Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to . __ IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here Attachment: (image/gif) 09_left.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) 09.gif [not stored] Attachment: (image/gif) IMSTP.gif [not stored] Attachment: (Image/gif) 09_B.gif [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2003 Report Share Posted April 23, 2003 Dear List, It does take something to bring one out of hibernation. Arudha discussion surely has. > Another example: Chandra kala nadi says that for Libra lagna native, the great blessing is the strength of exalted Jupiter as the enemies will flee like elephants running from a battlefield. Now, if Libra is the Arudha Lagna then the exactly opposite situation would arise if the sixth lord were exalted. This may seem easy to understand, but in application, this is the key to Raj-jyotish. > Take the chart of K N Rao for example. He has Libra Lagna with Venus in it and Jupiter in the 10th house in exaltation and Mercury in the 12th house in exaltation. From the Lagna, the sixth lord Jupiter is exalted and this may seem fantastic, but look at it from Arudha Lagna. The AL is in Cancer with the sixth lord Jupiter in exaltation. Thus, Jupiter has the power to destroy all enemies (as lord of Pisces) or to destroy him and promote enemies (as lord of Sagittarius)....how would you decide what Jupiter is going to do? Mercury is going to teach him the spiritual way and in exaltation in third from AL gives pravrajya in the positive sense and defeat in the battle of sansara in the material sense. His differences with B V Raman started in Mercury dasa. The end result was a forgone conclusion as during the dasa of a natural benefic (subha, good) planet exalted in the 3rd or 6th from AL, it is foolish to fight with anyone as the native is surely defeated.> Just a minor observation. Yes, the defeat came, but to whom is the major question. Dr. B.V. Raman's astrological teaching Institutes in Delhi has collectively (I think they are running 7 or 8 institutes in Delhi itself) hardly 100 students and Shri K.N. Rao's one Institute in Delhi, Bharatiya Vidya Bhawan has over 1000 students as on date. Surely a defeat. Even the great masters of astrology of today, send their own disciples to Shri K.N. Rao's Institute to learn astrology. What a defeat? Mercury's dasha for Shri K.N. Rao started in 1986 and is still continuing. Exalted Mercury in the twelfth house from Arudha Pada and Exalted 12th lord (9th lord also) took him to many places where he not only taught astrology but won the hearts of his students by his direct method of teaching and practical examples, not like others who hide behind scriptual veils. Mercury is still running. Mercury also happens to be the Putrakaraka and he has won really fantastic disciples in this period only who would carry his work forward. And believe me, it is like a Lion in the herd of Elephants. regards, Manoj The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2003 Report Share Posted April 23, 2003 Dear Manoj I know both Dr Raman and K N Rao are highly satvic and principled persons and who are both fine astrologers so perhaps you could tell us what the nature of the dispute between them was . In any case both lines of thought continue and those who read either's books are enlightened in their study of this sacred science . Nicholas - "Manoj Kumar" <mouji99 <gjlist> Wednesday, April 23, 2003 4:26 PM Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/ > Dear List, > > It does take something to bring one out of > hibernation. Arudha discussion surely has. > > > Another example: Chandra kala nadi says that for > Libra lagna native, the great blessing is the strength > of exalted Jupiter as the enemies will flee like > elephants running from a battlefield. Now, if Libra is > the Arudha Lagna then the exactly opposite situation > would arise if the sixth lord were exalted. This may > seem easy to understand, but in application, this is > the key to Raj-jyotish. > > Take the chart of K N Rao for example. He has Libra > Lagna with Venus in it and Jupiter in the 10th house > in exaltation and Mercury in the 12th house in > exaltation. From the Lagna, the sixth lord Jupiter is > exalted and this may seem fantastic, but look at it > from Arudha Lagna. The AL is in Cancer with the sixth > lord Jupiter in exaltation. Thus, Jupiter has the > power to destroy all enemies (as lord of Pisces) or to > destroy him and promote enemies (as lord of > Sagittarius)....how would you decide what Jupiter is > going to do? Mercury is going to teach him the > spiritual way and in exaltation in third from AL gives > pravrajya in the positive sense and defeat in the > battle of sansara in the material sense. His > differences with B V Raman started in Mercury dasa. > The end result was a forgone conclusion as during the > dasa of a natural benefic (subha, good) planet exalted > in the 3rd or 6th from AL, it is foolish to fight with > anyone as the native is surely defeated.> > > Just a minor observation. Yes, the defeat came, but to > whom is the major question. Dr. B.V. Raman's > astrological teaching Institutes in Delhi has > collectively (I think they are running 7 or 8 > institutes in Delhi itself) hardly 100 students and > Shri K.N. Rao's one Institute in Delhi, Bharatiya > Vidya Bhawan has over 1000 students as on date. Surely > a defeat. Even the great masters of astrology of > today, send their own disciples to Shri K.N. Rao's > Institute to learn astrology. What a defeat? > > Mercury's dasha for Shri K.N. Rao started in 1986 and > is still continuing. Exalted Mercury in the twelfth > house from Arudha Pada and Exalted 12th lord (9th lord > also) took him to many places where he not only taught > astrology but won the hearts of his students by his > direct method of teaching and practical examples, not > like others who hide behind scriptual veils. Mercury > is still running. Mercury also happens to be the > Putrakaraka and he has won really fantastic disciples > in this period only who would carry his work forward. > And believe me, it is like a Lion in the herd of > Elephants. > > regards, > > Manoj > > > > The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo > http://search. > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2003 Report Share Posted April 23, 2003 Dear Nicholas, As far as I know, the dispute was on the Ayanamsha. Shri K.N. Rao finds the Ayanamsha of Dr. B.V. Raman as unworkable. Manoj The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2003 Report Share Posted April 23, 2003 Dear Manoj Thank you Nicholas - "Manoj Kumar" <mouji99 <gjlist> Wednesday, April 23, 2003 5:20 PM Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/ > Dear Nicholas, > > As far as I know, the dispute was on the Ayanamsha. > Shri K.N. Rao finds the Ayanamsha of Dr. B.V. Raman as > unworkable. > > Manoj > > > > The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo > http://search. > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2003 Report Share Posted April 23, 2003 Om Sri Gurave namah Dear Manoj I didn't know that! Thought it was about books and something about ICAS. In any case nobody uses that ayanamsa. With best regards, Sanjay Rath H-5 B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India Webpages: http://srath.com ---- Dear ManojThank youNicholas-"Manoj Kumar" <mouji99 ><gjlist>Wednesday, April 23, 2003 5:20 PMRe: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/> Dear Nicholas,>> As far as I know, the dispute was on the Ayanamsha.> Shri K.N. Rao finds the Ayanamsha of Dr. B.V. Raman as> unworkable.>> Manoj>> > > The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo> http://search.>>>> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat> To , send an email to: gjlist-> http://www.goravani.com>>> Your use of is subject to >>>Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to . __ IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here Attachment: (image/gif) IMSTP.gif [not stored] Attachment: (Image/gif) BackGrnd.gif [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2003 Report Share Posted April 23, 2003 Dear Sanjay, I was not dissociating karma with events.Events are the manifest part of things.But what you suffer or enjoy due to those events is something at an internal level,it is the reality. How much you suffer or enjoy regarding matters of a particular house depends on what you DESIRE in that particular area and not the events that happen regarding that. One example:- 5th house governs children.There are people who really want to be blessed with children but cannot due to some problem.so they are suffering in this area.---- There are people with children who are such a source of trouble that would be better off if they didn't have them.they are suffering too. In both these cases,there has to be an afflicted 5th house though the event is opposite. Then of course,there are people who have the situation they desire --- that is -- desiring children and having good children,Not desiring children and being childless.-- In these cases,5th house must be good. In all the above cases---- the arudha pada of the 5th will show what is manifest to society.here again,good situation or bad situation (visibly) will also depend on the kind of society you live in. best regards, vivek. On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 Sanjay Rath wrote : > > >~OM~ >Dear Vivek, > >Karma really cannot be dissociated with the events in such a >manner, but >prima facie, you are right in your thinking. I will give an >illustration of >my point. >Take the sixth house: Natural good (what people call benefic, but >actually >Subha like Jupiter, Ketu, Vemus, Mercury and Moon) planets placed >there >indicate one who shall be freed from the troubles of the sixth >house by the >deity indicated by the planet. All 'Agantuka drista' roga/satru >shall vanish >at the smile of such a strong and good planet. >However, an exactly similar situation occuring from AL is the >most terrible. >If the planet in the sixth from AL or its lord is a natural >benefic and is >strong, then the native is tormented by enemies. >Here, both the situations are karmic as they indicate the >manifestation of >karma but the analysis of the result is exactly the opposite. > >Another example: Chandra kala nadi says that for Libra lagna >native, the >great blessing is the strength of exalted Jupiter as the enemies >will flee >like elephants running from a battlefield. Now, if Libra is the >Arudha Lagna > then the exactly opposite situation would arise if the sixth >lord were >exalted. This may seem easy to understand, but in application, >this is the >key to Raj-jyotish. > >Take the chart of K N Rao for example. He has Libra Lagna with >Venus in it >and Jupiter in the 10th house in exaltation and Mercury in the >12th house in >exaltation. From the Lagna, the sixth lord Jupiter is exalted and >this may >seem fantastic, but look at it from Arudha Lagna. The AL is in >Cancer with >the sixth lord Jupiter in exaltation. Thus, Jupiter has the power >to destroy >all enemies (as lord of Pisces) or to destroy him and promote >enemies (as >lord of Sagittarius)....how would you decide what Jupiter is >going to do? >Mercury is going to teach him the spiritual way and in exaltation >in third > from AL gives pravrajya in the positive sense and defeat in the >battle of >sansara in the material sense. His differences with B V Raman >started in >Mercury dasa. The end result was a forgone conclusion as during >the dasa of >a natural benefic (subha, good) planet exalted in the 3rd or 6th > from AL, it >is foolish to fight with anyone as the native is surely >defeated. > >With best wishes, >Sanjay Rath >------------------------ >H-5 B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India >+91-674-2436871; >Webpages:http://srath.com http://.org >------------------ >---- > > gjlist >Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:48:23 PM >gjlist >Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/ > >Dear sanjay, >I agree with you. >My understanding is that Natal chart being karmic position at >birth,it shows the KARMIC side --- that is a house in the chart >will show things from a karmic angle,the matters of that house. >Whereas the arudha pada of that house will show it from the >EVENT >angle. >Perceptions differ to such an extent that the same event can >cause >either joy or suffering. >For example:- Death of a spouse.Externally it may be seen that >the >person is mourning but the person may actually be rejoicing! >If rejoicing is the case,it could be the result of good past >karma. >So it is basically KARMIC ANGLE V/S EVENT ANGLE. >Am I right? >Best regards, >vivek. > >On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 Sanjay Rath wrote : > > > > > >~OM~ > >Dear Vivek > >I remember a famous quote > >"Cowards die many times but the brave taste of death but > >once"...so you will > >agree that the perception of death (mrityu) or near death > >(apa-mrityu) will > >vary from one chart to another. So even in death, perception >and > >reality > >differ. > >For how many years have we speculated whether the great >Subhash > >Chandra Bose > >is actually dead? For how many years do we wonder on how > >Chaitanya > >Mahaprabhu left this world. He just walked into the idol of > >Jagannath!! can > >you perceive or imagine this. > >Even in death, an event, perceptions differ. When someone >dies, > >most lament, > >some enemies delight, and most don't care. The reality is the > >same for all > >yet the perception is different. > >This is not an easy topic and most people avoid it. But it is > >worth thinking > >as no one can give a perfect answer...after all who knows >Satya > >or the > >perfect truth, what we all understand is half truths. > >With best wishes, > >Sanjay Rath > >------------------------ > >H-5 B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India > >+91-674-2436871; > >Webpages:http://srath.com http://.org > >------------------ > >---- > > > > gjlist > >Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:15:41 PM > >gjlist > >Re: Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/ > > > >Hello Robert and Anna, > >Perception and reality cannot be different in some >cases.Length > >of > >life for example. > >I wish I could get an exact definition of AL. > >I recollect a statement I saw while searching on the net for > >Arudha lagna:- "When ketu transits the trines of arudha > >lagna,he > >gives moksha-gati" > >So what is the significance of the trines of AL? > > > >On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 N. wrote : > > >Dear Robert, > > > > > >I understand your questions- I have lots of them, too: re >ALs > >and > > >D charts, length of year /360 vs. 365/, numerous Dasa > >systems, > > >let alone various ayanamsas, etc. > > >As you know there is no answer to these questions. Lots of > > >Jyotish concepts, from various schools, and from >'integrative > > >approach' of SJC as well /that you also represent/, or due >to > > >the fact that it is 'eclectic' in nature even more so, do >not > > >provide firm theoretical frame. And in most jyotish >concepts > >we > > >depend on /justified/ trust in Parashara and Jaimini- even >if > >we > > >are unable to formulate 'logical' explanation /at least at > >the > > >moment, at least in theory/ for some of their statements. > > > > > >So, why do you think that I am supposed to provide > >theoretical > > >framework for Arudha Lagnas - or any other- concept /in >this > > >particular case/ when, as far as I know, neither you nor > >others, > > >who use them, haven't done so far? In fact in my attempt to > > >explain ALs to Vivek I did make some guesses, as they >appeared > >to > > >me. How long/if I will use them in the future, depends on > >results > > >I'd have with them. You obviously use them, and that means > >that > > >you've found them 'workable'- I've seen your and Narsimha > > >discussion on predicting the death from AL analysis- so you > > >should be better able to give the answer to the question > >bellow- > > >if it's not only rhetorical, as, sorry Robert, it appears >to > > >me. > > > > > >Plese read my post again- and you'll find an attempt to > >formulate > > >what ALs stand for, and therefore meaning of 'real' >'reality' > > >truth' are more descriptive that defining- Failure to >notice > >that > > >leads to argument for the sake of argument, and is not >worth > > >attention/time. > > >If you have better explanation, we all would benefit from > >your > > >sharing, and I would appreciate that very much, too. > > > > > >In other words, I am itching to hear from you 'how real is > >real' > > >and get well rounded definition of ALs- that would >contribute > >to > > >our knowledge a lot. > > > > > >Thanks, > > >Anna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert A. Koch > > > gjlist > > > Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:08 PM > > > Re: [GJ] purpose of arudha lagna/s/ > > > > > > > > > Dear Ann and Vivek, > > > > > > Interesting discussion re: Arudha lagna. May I pose a > > >question here? Anna, you state that the lagna and AL both > >stand > > >for real things, and your position re: AL in that regard is > > >well-taken. Accepting this, then, the next most logical > >question > > >would be: > > > > > > 1. The karaka for the lagna (i.e. truth/reality) is the >Sun. > > >There are no controversies here. > > > 2. If that is the case, then what would be the karaka for > > >the Arudha lagna if, as you say, it also stands for > >truth/reality > > >(in your opinion)? > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > Robert > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer > > > Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA > > > visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and, > > > http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or > > > Ph: 541.318.0248 > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > > : > > >gjlist- > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms >of > > >Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > >: > >gjlist- > > > > > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > >. > > > > > > > > >Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat >: >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > >. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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