Mirror, Reality- Arudhas

April 20, 2003

Dear Robert,

We can be friends and disagree, we can be no-friends and have meaningful

discussion. In fact this should go without saying. Therefore Robert I don't

think I appreciate 'personalizing' /polluting, IMHO/ of any discussion- my

response to you wasn't meant to defend anything, because I did make a positive

contribution by trying to define ALs, and by responding to Vivek's question

directly. Other than that I didn't have any intentions- not even to defend AL

concept itself.

If you wanted to write this /bellow/ I don't understand the reason why you

needed to give yourself a reason for that by employing /seemingly/ logical

principle to prove what's real and what's not. List and myself, would equally

appreciate that. This post in fact didn't contribute much to understanding of

the major issue that we are concerned about, and that is 'how real is real'.

You wrote about the perception-side of Arudha L.s, and that has never been an

issue, since we've read that so many times, from so many examples, Narasimha &

other have written about that since 1999, extensively. Only at the end, at

'event timing' you tackled the issue of 'reality' /connectedness with real life

events/, but failed to comment on that as being basically different from

perception-issue. If transit triggers points in AL, and make events happen,

it's not 'perception only', obviously. And that is the only open issue- Vivek's

attempt to bring the two together, saying that it might be that perception and

reality are sometimes the same, doesn't seem to cover this either- Is that

perception /of whom? who is the 'object' and who is the 'perceptor'?/ that

makes us conclude that the person will suffer violent death/from AL?

I didn't want to respond to your previous post directly, but now I have to:

You wrote:

"Accepting this, then, the next most logical question would be:

"1. The karaka for the lagna (I.a. truth/reality) is the Sun. There are no

controversies here.

2. If that is the case, then what would be the karaka for the Aretha lagan if,

as you say, it also stands for truth/reality (in your opinion)? "

No it's not logical. This is not correct method of deduction either- Adults are

humans, Adults are responsible for their behaviour; babies are humans-

therefore responsible for their behaviour'- If Sun is not Karaka as in Rashi-

it's not real!

You used this deduction to prove 'logically' that ALs are not 'real' /in absence

of better word, of course/-

So if you have Solar Return /varshapal/ which indicates wealth, would you make a

conclusion that the person will be wealthy /as you would with natal chart/-Of

course not! And common sense /logic/ will tell you NOT to expand natal

significations too much, and that's my POINT: IN ANY DERIVED CHART. Does that

deny reality of solar return? of AL's. You simply CANNOT prove the point this

way. We do, however use the same symbolic /Moon for Mother, Rahu for widows,

etc/ to a reasonable extent when we analyze derived-and AL chart.

I don't defend any /of two/ concepts of ALs- it seems that both exist. And I am

modest enough to admit that I have just 'impressions' may have 'experience',

and rely on AUTHORITIES for OPINION

For the sake of honesty, the fact that we are not /?/ able to cover both sides

with one explanation, as it seems to be the case, should be acknowledged- that

wouldn't devaluate the Al concept, astrologer's knowledge, either.

Anna

Robert A. Koch

gjlist

Sunday, April 20, 2003 3:16 PM

[GJ] Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall - Arudhas

Dear Anna and Vivek, Anna, you and I are good friends - so relax, take a deep

breath, put away the defensiveness, and lets see if we can learn something from

this discussion. And no, I am not interested in rhetoric only.OK, so back to my

question: If the Sun is the karaka of the lagna, then what is the karaka of the

Arudha lagna? Obviously, the lagna and the Arudha lagna are not the same

things, otherwise it would be ludicrous to make a distinction between the two.

SUN: It is the Satya, light, or pure truth. Being pure, it is the Atma itself.

So the purpose of incarnation, or the actual point of incarnation, comes

through the lagna, which in essence is the degree of some sign where the Sun is

placed at the moment of Sunrise. MOON: It is the reflected light of the Sun,

and thus the image portrayed by the soul, having incarnated into a material

body. All manifestations of matter are temporary, and thus in consideration

of what is true or not, identities, bodies, cultures, belief systems etc., are

different manifestations of Maya, or illusion. These things are reiterated

many places in the Vedic Upanishads, and are a central fixture in any spiritual

understanding. Whereas Maya, or temporal form, is illusion, the Soul, or Atma

from which life force originates, is Satya, or truth. *Note that the Sun's

zodiacal position at sunrise, or lagna, is a true astronomical phenomenon,

whereas the chart taking the Moon as lagna does not reflect an astronomical

fact. It does, however, reflect how the mind works or perceives life

experience for the soul having taken birth in material form. For those

purposes, it is very useful. ARUDHA: The word Arudha means "mount", or "the

risen". Thus to what extent material illusion can expand, or the magnitude to

which it may be experienced, is indicated by the Arudha of the lagna.

Similarly, the matters represented by different astrological houses, will reach

a certain level of manifestation in the world of illusion, or Maya, and thus

there are Arudhas associated with each house also.

Thus, the karaka for the natal lagna is the Sun (truth), and the karaka for the

Arudha lagna (perception of truth) is the Moon. Now, there are many examples

of how this plays out in actual chart instances. For example, in the chart of

former Vice president Al Gore, the lagna is Cancer with Mars and Saturn; the

Arudha lagna is Taurus, where there is Venus. So the side of the persona with

which the world most identifies the man, is Venusian, i.e. pleasant,

well-dressed, aristocratic, refined, etc. The true character, or persona,

however, is more associated with Saturn and Mars, and thus ambitious,

calculating, skeptical or discerning, and intent on fulfilling his purpose.

You have two layers of reality upon which both sides of the persona operate:

that which is true, although not always easily identifiable; and that which is

perceived, and which is most often or easily identifiable. Anna, you are

correct on many of your theoretical explanations, and I don't mean to sound

like I am editing them. As you say, the AL can be used as a reference point

from which to see all things, although there is a difference between the lagna

as reference point, and the Arudha lagna as a reference point. In my classes

some years ago, I used to teach that if you can't readily identify the karmas

of the individual from the lagna, then look at the yogas/combinations from the

Arudha lagna. You are able to more easily identify what is what in the chart,

as the Arudha brings the manifestations of Maya into higher form. We most

often identify people or situations according to what we perceive; the

perceptions most often differ from the reality, however. Another example: In

ex-President Bill Clinton's chart, (I use Cancer lagna for his chart), the

Arudha lagna is Libra, where he has Jupiter. So, he is perceived as someone

who is educated, refined, dignified, and effective working in government and

legal circles. He is also identified as someone who is compassionate or

genuinely concerned for the welfare of others. Now, Rahu also makes his aspect

(rasi aspects) to Jupiter, as well as to the natural lagna, and Venus/Mars. So,

although he is most often identified in the above ways, for a period of time, he

was identified as a deceptive liar, a womanizer, and this perception was

exploited by his adversaries, who wished to defeat him on the basis of his

Arudha. What they failed to understand, was that the Raja-yoga linking Jupiter

to the Moon, would not allow the man to be brought down. In other words, the

effect of Rahu on the Arudha (perceptions), was not nearly as strong as the

Raja-yoga that sustained his position in spite of his adversaries. Because

Rahu also aspects the lagna, the perceptions (i.e. Rahu aspects to the Arudha)

about him are true, to a certain extent. Anyway, lets just say, that there are

different levels upon which we can see a person. In Jyotish we can see those

levels (i.e. Satya, lagna, Sun for the reality; and Asat, illusion or

perceptions, i.e. Arudha lagna and Moon) without bias or discrimination. Who

is the person really? That identity or portrait which is painted by

perceptions and illusion, or the true identity. Other matters regarding

longevity, or as Vivek says, seeing the event of spiritual advancement when

Ketu transits in trine to the Arudha lagna, are for another discussion.

EVENT-TIMING: As a final note, and you will find this useful: Whenever a dasa

period, whether Vimsottari dasa, or Rasi dasa such as Narayana dasa, joins or

aspects the Arudha lagna, some significant and possibly life-changing event is

likely to occur to the native. In my book on Spirituality in Jyotish and Drig

dasa, I gave many examples of how key events in a person's spiritual life

occurred when the Arudha lagna became activated by the operative Drig dasa.

Similarly, priests became popes, or consecrated into sainthood (Catholic

lineage) when dasas associated with the Arudha of the 10th came into effect.

OK, more later........Thanks for listening,Robert

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> and,

http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com or

Ph: 541.318.0248Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo

, send an email to:

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April 20, 2003

SARVAM GYANANANDAMAYAM JAGAT

AUM GURUBYO NAMAH

Respected Anna & Robert,

Namaste. At the outset i wish to thankyou for your contributions. A very nice

topic has been chosen indeed for discussion - Lagna/Arudha lagna. May i join?

i wish to submit my understandings below:

Sun is the Atman, Moon is the mind and Lagna is the body. This is the tripod of

life concept taught. Confusion arises when we try to interpret Arudha as

intangible and Lagna as tangible. Instead of trying to distinguish it in this

manner i think it is better to call it temporary and permanent. Sathya/truth

is one which is ever permanent while Asatya is temporary. Going by this

prinicple i think it would be better to treat Lagna as the time when Jeeva

manifested. i think it would be better to treat lagna as Jeeva/Jeevatma while

Arudha as body which is correctly classisfied as perishable/temporary. Jeeva

goes on till the merger with Paramaatman. Death has been timed with reference

to Arudha Lagna (Shoola rasi dasas aspecting AL brings death/death equivalent

troubles) goes to say this point more clearly.

You can ask one question then why Lagna is consulted with HL for finding out the

longevity span. Manifestation is not a permanent feature. Time of manifestation

has a time of dissolution also (vyakta/avaykta).

i wanted to draw up Vimsottari dashas with reference to Arudha lagna and check

up results for the 3rd, 5th and 7th dasas just to find out whether that period

throws light on timing of death. i have not done that so far.

Sanjay can throw more light if he is reading this.

Best wishes,

Astrologically yours,

psramanrayanan

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April 20, 2003

Dear Robert,

I have been in a dilemma re this issue for long time /whether to include this,

and other non-traditional concepts, as well, or not/ and decided to explore

further. Frustration of not being able to grasp this easily in all its facets,

seems inevitable- now that I read your post again, without expectation to find

'all-inclusive' definition, I realized that in fact I missed to notice what is

more important, perhaps, and that is the quality of examples you have provided

for both facets of AL. Our focus was on definition, and we didn't make any

progress.

However, excellent examples of not only perception related to AL but on yogas

operating within, are really educative, and do, indeed help my better

understanding of the issue.I apologize that, in a heat of the moment, I was too

negatively 'charged', and that I missed to acknowledge true value of your

contribution, that we all benefit from, whenever you share your knowledge on

the List.

Thank you very much Robert, I hope you'll be sharing more.

I am looking forward to reading your new book.

Anna

-

N.

gjlist

Sunday, April 20, 2003 5:16 PM

Re: [GJ] Mirror, Reality- Arudhas