Guest guest Posted October 5, 2003 Report Share Posted October 5, 2003 Regarding the chart style: I also do not agree that there is no difference in the chart formats. There are. (Be prepared, a long and very interesting text): It appears that both North Indian and East Indian chart formats are heavily influenced by the Muslim conquerors of these geographical regions which were under Muslim domination for about 800 years. In contrast, South India, though finaly conquered by the Muslims, was only under their domination for the short time and parts of South India remained independent. The Muslim domination of the North and East did muct to change certain cultural habits of the poeple, their manner of dress, and certain external habits became different from that of South India which is largely independent. It is well known that the Muslim invaders from Arrabia, Persia and Afganistan already knew astrology, as can be seen by studying the works of Al'beruni, Abraham Ibn Ezra, Abu Mashar and Masha Allah. Al'beruni a contemporary of the rapacious Mahmud of Ghazni, spent long periods in India. Thus, the main court astrologers, or at least the original cour astrologers of these new comers to North and East India were also Muslims - Arabs, Persians, Afganis, Turkmens, Pathans, Uzbeks and Tajikas, etc. All of whom were steeped in the astrological traditions of the Middle East. This tradition was an amalgam of Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Chaldaean, Hebrew, Egyptain, Babylonian, Sassanian (Persian), Arabian, and Vedic astrology. The previous mentioned systems were themselves originally of Vedic origin, but had gone through many changes so as to make them distinctively different. For example, they were tropical instead sidereal. The Tajika system used in India today is a blend of Middle Eastern astrology with some Vedic elements. It is definitely not Vedic astrology. What is known today as Tajika-Nilakanthi came from the Tajik school of astrology in Tajikastan, a country located in the area around Balkh in modern day Northen Afganistan and bodering in Tajikastan (former Tajik SSR). Abu Mashar (787-886 A.D.) "one of the most renowed of Islamic astrologers" was from Balkh. The chart formats employed by Muslim court astrologers was typically Midle Eastern and the same as used by the ancient Greeks and Romans. And what did the chart format of the ancient Greeks and Romans look like? Several ancient Greek and Latin manuscripts are still preserved which contain the horoscopes of persons both famous and unknown. Antigonus of Nicaea, a 2nd century AD physician-astrologer, compiled a collection of historical horoscopes including the horoscope of the Emperor Hadrian. The original collection was lost, but the chart of Hadrian and others survived because the astrologer Hephaestion of Thebes (4th century AD) excerpted this chart and others from the collection of Antigonus and published it for his students. (NOTE: Cramer, p. 165. See also Neugebauer and van Hoesen.) The diagram of Hadrian's chart is identical to that used in North India today, except that the Lagna is not at the top but on the left side. This very same chart format was used by Western astrologers until the end of the 19 th century. A good, graphical example of how European astrologers used a chart format practically identical to that of North Indian astrologers can be found in the 1983 reprint of the 1814 translation from Latin of Placidus de Titis' 1657 work Primum Mobile. The present day wheel format of the Western astrologers, while circular, still places the Lagna in the same position, at the left side, as it did in the rectangular format. The East Indian chart format seems to be derived directly from a traditional style used in the Middle East; especially from the Sassanian dynasty of Persia which ended with the invasion of the Muslim Arabs. An example of this Sassanian chart format can be seen in the works of the 8th century AD astrologer Masha' Allah translated by Pingree and Kennedy. This chart format was later adopted by the Islamic astrologers and brought to India where it became the standard in the royal courts of East India. The difference between the Middle Eastern and East Indian format is that the Middle Eastern system, like the N. Indian system, had no fixed place for signs but is more concerned with the houses, thus the houses are always represented by the same position; whereas in the East Indian system it is the signs which remain in the same position as in the South Indian system. So the East Indian system is a combination of the S. Indian system which emphasises the signs while keeping the general format of the Middle Eastern system. How did this Greek-Muslim format come into vouge in North and East India? Since the Muslim court astrologers used this format, anyone who wanted to get influence in the Muslim royal courts had to adopt the same format. And, since traditionally it was royalty that patronized the arts and sciences it is not surprising that if some Hindu astrologer wanted to become recognized by the court he would adopt the de facto format used by the Muslim royal astrologers. Some astrologers may even have converted to Islam, as Tanden did, in order to gain more influence. In the course of 800 years what was the fashion of the royal court became the fashion of the people. We however are not concerned with fashion but rather with the Vedic tradition. It seems that the Vedic tradition is best represented by the South Indian format. While this format has been described by the Rsis, the same cannot be said about the North and East Indian formats. In the Vedas and in particular in Vedic astronomical texts the vantage point of the stellar observer is with his back to the north and looking south. Thus the stars and planets would rise on the left (the east) and set to the right (the west) this describes a clock-wise motion. It is said that this represents the view of the devas who are looking down from above (north). The South Indian chart format reflects this because it is in a clock-wise orientation. The asuras would be looking from the opposite direction and thuse have a counter-clockwise orientation. This is the orientation of the North Indian, East Indian and Western (ancient and modern) chart formats, which are all counter-clockwise. Those who are acquainted with Vedic cultural traditions know that the pradaksina-marga (clock-wise motion) is condsidered auspicious while the opposite is unfortunate. Considering this it would seem highly likely that the Rsis would depict the kala-cakra oriented in the pradaksina-marga and not otherwise. And, indeed, they have as is seen in the work od Jaimini Rsi. Since it is known that Parasara Rsi also incorporated many od Jaimini's ideas it would seem that Jaimini's system is a case of specialized developement of certain areas of what is know as the Parasara system (Parasara didn't invent it). The point being that Jaimini didn't invent this chart format but was continuing an original system. It just happens that this presentation of astrology happens to specifically mention this format while others do not specify any format. Aside from the historical pedigrees there are important practical advantages for using the perfect Vedic system: * In Vedic astrology the position of Candra is second only to the Lagna in importance. If the Lagna is not known or uncertain then Candra becomes the Lagna. In any case it is advised to study the chart from both the Lagna and Candra Lagna. In the S. Indian (Vedic) format the orientation of the Rasis doesn't change. The astrologers simply looks at the same chart and studies it from the Lagna and Candra. However, the N. Indian (Middle Eastern) format is dependent on the Lagna, that is, which ever Rasi is the Lagna, a separate chart diagram must be drawn up with the Moon put in place where the Lagna would be. This necessitates having to draw another chart when only one suffices in the Vedic system. * The Vedic format is suited for doing Prasna whereas the Middle Eastern format is not. Astrology teachers in South India are specialists in Prasna and often do many Prasnas a day sometimes several dozen in one afternoon. In such cases the planetary position is virtually the same for each prasna, only the Lagna changes. Using the Vedic chart format we have only to place a mark in the next Rasi to indicate the new Lagna. Whereas using the Middle Eastern format every ime there is a change in Lagna in the Rasi or Navamsa a new diagram must be drawn. This takes up time and introduces the possibility of error by incorrect placement of planets. * Again in the field of Prasna using various methods finding the Arudha Lagna would be very difficult using the Middle Eastern format, but simple using the Vedic formst. It is described in Astamangala Deva Prasna how the Arudha Lagna is chosen by a young child going to an unmarked diagram and choosing one of the squares. In the Vedic format each square represents a Rasi. This Rasi becomes the Arudha Lagna and the house placements are then calculated and the reading done. How could this be done using the Middle Eastern format where a diagram only represents houses not signs? If a section of the diagram were chosen, it would indicate a house not a Rasi, how then could the Arudha Lagna be chosen? Another method of choosing the Arudha Lagna would be for the astrologer to mentally divide the ground in front of him into a Vedic chart diagram. Then if a questioner came and stood in one of the Rasis that would represent the Arudha Lagna and the predicions could be made. Again, this would be impossible using the Middle Eastern format. * In Jaimini astrology signs aspect signs so this would be messy to do if diagramatic orientation of the signs from one another was continuously changing with each different Lagna as would be the case with the North Indian chart format. >From a strictly utilitarian view it would appear that the Vedic format is much more useful than the Middle Eastern format regarding ease of use, not having to redraw the chart as often, and being able to do things with the Vedic format which are impossible with the Middle Eastern. From this vantage point the Vedic format is superior. Another advantage of the Vedic format over the Middle Eastern is that the vast majority of books written in English on Vedic astrology use the Vedic format, not the Middle Eastern. It would thus behoove the student to use the Vedic format for this reason alone. An objection is sometimes raised by the advocates of the Middle Eastern chart format: that being in their system it is very easy to identify which houses are the kendras (quadrant) and trikonas (trinal). This may be true for a complete neophyte in astrology, that is, a student who has been at it for a few days. But any student, after only a few lessons, will be able to quickly know which are the kendras and konas for each Lagna using the Vedic format. In fact I don't know of any student who ever felt themselves at a disadvantafe using the Vedic format when they first started studying. Why saddle oneself with all the disadvantages of the Middle Eastern format and lose the advantages of the Vedic format for cuch a paltry gain. A gain which would be outgrown in a week or two of study. This would be like keeping your trainer wheels on you bicycle for ever, even after you learnt how to ride without them. In consideration of all these points, we conclude that what is known as the South Indian format is the original Vedic chart format. For this very reason alone Vedic astrologers should embrace it. Above this sentiment, there are very practical ways in which it is a superior chart format, the benefits of which will accrue to the user. On the other hand, what is know as the North Indian chart format is not Vedic, but is of Middle Eastern and Greek origin. Aside from its non-Vedic anticendents, it has certain intrinsic liabilities and weaknesses which make it the inferior chart format. DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 Thanks Denis, That was very interesting and informative. I prefer and use southern format also. Southern style is sign oriented and northern house oriented. Signs are inner immutable factors and houses are outer expressions which are mutable. Love, Hari Das ---------- >"Denis Dumancic" <denis ><gjlist> >[GJ] Chart style >Sun, Oct 5, 2003, 10:49 AM > > > Regarding the chart style: > > I also do not agree that there is no difference in the chart formats. There > are. (Be prepared, a long and very interesting text): > > It appears that both North Indian and East Indian chart formats are heavily > influenced by the Muslim conquerors of these geographical regions which > were under Muslim domination for about 800 years. In contrast, South > India, though finaly conquered by the Muslims, was only under their > domination for the short time and parts of South India remained independent. > > The Muslim domination of the North and East did muct to change certain > cultural habits of the poeple, their manner of dress, and certain external > habits became different from that of South India which is largely independent. > > It is well known that the Muslim invaders from Arrabia, Persia and > Afganistan already knew astrology, as can be seen by studying the works of > Al'beruni, Abraham Ibn Ezra, Abu Mashar and Masha Allah. Al'beruni a > contemporary of the rapacious Mahmud of Ghazni, spent long periods in India. > > Thus, the main court astrologers, or at least the original cour astrologers > of these new comers to North and East India were also Muslims - Arabs, > Persians, Afganis, Turkmens, Pathans, Uzbeks and Tajikas, etc. All of whom > were steeped in the astrological traditions of the Middle East. This > tradition was an amalgam of Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Chaldaean, Hebrew, > Egyptain, Babylonian, Sassanian (Persian), Arabian, and Vedic astrology. > > The previous mentioned systems were themselves originally of Vedic origin, > but had gone through many changes so as to make them distinctively > different. For example, they were tropical instead sidereal. The Tajika > system used in India today is a blend of Middle Eastern astrology with some > Vedic elements. It is definitely not Vedic astrology. What is known today > as Tajika-Nilakanthi came from the Tajik school of astrology in Tajikastan, > a country located in the area around Balkh in modern day Northen Afganistan > and bodering in Tajikastan (former Tajik SSR). > > Abu Mashar (787-886 A.D.) "one of the most renowed of Islamic astrologers" > was from Balkh. The chart formats employed by Muslim court astrologers was > typically Midle Eastern and the same as used by the ancient Greeks and > Romans. And what did the chart format of the ancient Greeks and Romans look like? > > Several ancient Greek and Latin manuscripts are still preserved which > contain the horoscopes of persons both famous and unknown. Antigonus of > Nicaea, a 2nd century AD physician-astrologer, compiled a collection of > historical horoscopes including the horoscope of the Emperor Hadrian. The > original collection was lost, but the chart of Hadrian and others survived > because the astrologer Hephaestion of Thebes (4th century AD) excerpted > this chart and others from the collection of Antigonus and published it for > his students. (NOTE: Cramer, p. 165. See also Neugebauer and van Hoesen.) > > The diagram of Hadrian's chart is identical to that used in North India > today, except that the Lagna is not at the top but on the left side. This > very same chart format was used by Western astrologers until the end of the > 19 th century. A good, graphical example of how European astrologers used a > chart format practically identical to that of North Indian astrologers can > be found in the 1983 reprint of the 1814 translation from Latin of Placidus > de Titis' 1657 work Primum Mobile. The present day wheel format of the > Western astrologers, while circular, still places the Lagna in the same > position, at the left side, as it did in the rectangular format. > > The East Indian chart format seems to be derived directly from a > traditional style used in the Middle East; especially from the Sassanian > dynasty of Persia which ended with the invasion of the Muslim Arabs. An > example of this Sassanian chart format can be seen in the works of the 8th > century AD astrologer Masha' Allah translated by Pingree and Kennedy. This > chart format was later adopted by the Islamic astrologers and brought to > India where it became the standard in the royal courts of East India. > > The difference between the Middle Eastern and East Indian format is that > the Middle Eastern system, like the N. Indian system, had no fixed place > for signs but is more concerned with the houses, thus the houses are always > represented by the same position; whereas in the East Indian system it is > the signs which remain in the same position as in the South Indian system. > So the East Indian system is a combination of the S. Indian system which > emphasises the signs while keeping the general format of the Middle Eastern system. > > How did this Greek-Muslim format come into vouge in North and East India? > Since the Muslim court astrologers used this format, anyone who wanted to > get influence in the Muslim royal courts had to adopt the same format. And, > since traditionally it was royalty that patronized the arts and sciences it > is not surprising that if some Hindu astrologer wanted to become recognized > by the court he would adopt the de facto format used by the Muslim royal > astrologers. Some astrologers may even have converted to Islam, as Tanden > did, in order to gain more influence. In the course of 800 years what was > the fashion of the royal court became the fashion of the people. > > We however are not concerned with fashion but rather with the Vedic > tradition. It seems that the Vedic tradition is best represented by the > South Indian format. While this format has been described by the Rsis, the > same cannot be said about the North and East Indian formats. > > In the Vedas and in particular in Vedic astronomical texts the vantage > point of the stellar observer is with his back to the north and looking > south. Thus the stars and planets would rise on the left (the east) and set > to the right (the west) this describes a clock-wise motion. It is said that > this represents the view of the devas who are looking down from above (north). > > The South Indian chart format reflects this because it is in a clock-wise > orientation. The asuras would be looking from the opposite direction and > thuse have a counter-clockwise orientation. This is the orientation of the > North Indian, East Indian and Western (ancient and modern) chart formats, > which are all counter-clockwise. Those who are acquainted with Vedic > cultural traditions know that the pradaksina-marga (clock-wise motion) is > condsidered auspicious while the opposite is unfortunate. Considering this > it would seem highly likely that the Rsis would depict the kala-cakra > oriented in the pradaksina-marga and not otherwise. And, indeed, they have > as is seen in the work od Jaimini Rsi. > > Since it is known that Parasara Rsi also incorporated many od Jaimini's > ideas it would seem that Jaimini's system is a case of specialized > developement of certain areas of what is know as the Parasara system > (Parasara didn't invent it). The point being that Jaimini didn't invent > this chart format but was continuing an original system. It just happens > that this presentation of astrology happens to specifically mention this > format while others do not specify any format. > > Aside from the historical pedigrees there are important practical > advantages for using the perfect Vedic system: > > * In Vedic astrology the position of Candra is second only to the Lagna in > importance. If the Lagna is not known or uncertain then Candra becomes the > Lagna. In any case it is advised to study the chart from both the Lagna and > Candra Lagna. In the S. Indian (Vedic) format the orientation of the Rasis > doesn't change. The astrologers simply looks at the same chart and studies > it from the Lagna and Candra. However, the N. Indian (Middle Eastern) > format is dependent on the Lagna, that is, which ever Rasi is the Lagna, a > separate chart diagram must be drawn up with the Moon put in place where > the Lagna would be. This necessitates having to draw another chart when > only one suffices in the Vedic system. > > * The Vedic format is suited for doing Prasna whereas the Middle Eastern > format is not. Astrology teachers in South India are specialists in Prasna > and often do many Prasnas a day sometimes several dozen in one afternoon. > In such cases the planetary position is virtually the same for each prasna, > only the Lagna changes. Using the Vedic chart format we have only to place > a mark in the next Rasi to indicate the new Lagna. Whereas using the Middle > Eastern format every ime there is a change in Lagna in the Rasi or Navamsa > a new diagram must be drawn. This takes up time and introduces the > possibility of error by incorrect placement of planets. > > * Again in the field of Prasna using various methods finding the Arudha > Lagna would be very difficult using the Middle Eastern format, but simple > using the Vedic formst. It is described in Astamangala Deva Prasna how the > Arudha Lagna is chosen by a young child going to an unmarked diagram and > choosing one of the squares. In the Vedic format each square represents a > Rasi. This Rasi becomes the Arudha Lagna and the house placements are then > calculated and the reading done. How could this be done using the Middle > Eastern format where a diagram only represents houses not signs? If a > section of the diagram were chosen, it would indicate a house not a Rasi, > how then could the Arudha Lagna be chosen? Another method of choosing the > Arudha Lagna would be for the astrologer to mentally divide the ground in > front of him into a Vedic chart diagram. Then if a questioner came and > stood in one of the Rasis that would represent the Arudha Lagna and the > predicions could be made. Again, this would be impossible using the Middle > Eastern format. > > * In Jaimini astrology signs aspect signs so this would be messy to do if > diagramatic orientation of the signs from one another was continuously > changing with each different Lagna as would be the case with the North > Indian chart format. > > From a strictly utilitarian view it would appear that the Vedic format is > much more useful than the Middle Eastern format regarding ease of use, not > having to redraw the chart as often, and being able to do things with the > Vedic format which are impossible with the Middle Eastern. From this > vantage point the Vedic format is superior. > > Another advantage of the Vedic format over the Middle Eastern is that the > vast majority of books written in English on Vedic astrology use the Vedic > format, not the Middle Eastern. It would thus behoove the student to use > the Vedic format for this reason alone. > > An objection is sometimes raised by the advocates of the Middle Eastern > chart format: that being in their system it is very easy to identify which > houses are the kendras (quadrant) and trikonas (trinal). This may be true > for a complete neophyte in astrology, that is, a student who has been at it > for a few days. But any student, after only a few lessons, will be able to > quickly know which are the kendras and konas for each Lagna using the Vedic > format. > > In fact I don't know of any student who ever felt themselves at a > disadvantafe using the Vedic format when they first started studying. Why > saddle oneself with all the disadvantages of the Middle Eastern format and > lose the advantages of the Vedic format for cuch a paltry gain. A gain > which would be outgrown in a week or two of study. This would be like > keeping your trainer wheels on you bicycle for ever, even after you learnt > how to ride without them. > > In consideration of all these points, we conclude that what is known as the > South Indian format is the original Vedic chart format. For this very > reason alone Vedic astrologers should embrace it. Above this sentiment, > there are very practical ways in which it is a superior chart format, the > benefits of which will accrue to the user. > > On the other hand, what is know as the North Indian chart format is not > Vedic, but is of Middle Eastern and Greek origin. Aside from its non-Vedic > anticendents, it has certain intrinsic liabilities and weaknesses which > make it the inferior chart format. > > DD > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 Dear Hari, Very well put! Thanks for this Gem. Sateesh. ======== - "Gee Sunn" <siva1008 <gjlist> Monday, October 06, 2003 6:12 PM Re: [GJ] Chart style : Signs are inner immutable factors and houses are : outer expressions which are mutable. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release 29/09/2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 I find houses more important immediately in readings, than signs, and so prefer Northern. rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 Yes Rick, Houses weigh more in this phsical realm since after all we all incarnated and have no choice but to go through this earthly experience again, and as you say this physical plane is very immediate. And yet, we exist at many different levels or realms which are the varga charts showing our potential in vertical dimension not just the mundane horizontal phsical plane which the word house implies. Planets and houses move around but the backgound signs do not move. They are just there. Which move are unreal which do not move are real. Just like your illness, houses are symptoms not the causes and i know that your illness is just temporary not permanent. In ultimate sense it does not exist and you know it. Look at the varga charts. It is not there. Love, Hari Das ---------- >Das Goravani <> ><gjlist> >Re: [GJ] Chart style >Mon, Oct 6, 2003, 2:57 PM > > > I find houses more important immediately in readings, than signs, and so > prefer Northern. > > rick > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.