Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 hello Mr. Das Gorvani, i read the emails you have posted to the group, believe me you are not the only one on lithium, i am 25 years old and i am on lithium ,zoloft, glucophage,verapamel, renitec and glucobay since the last 7 years. i have manic-depressive /bipolar, polycystic ovaries, diabetes type II ,& hypertension. i was a medical student but i had to leave the university, i tried several remedies but nothing has ever worked. you are right , destiny does not change its course due to mantras, remedies or kavach etc ; it is just that we have to learn that god has destined for us to be this way and yet be content with our lot. i believe Das that there is a purpose although it may even be pain alone for our sorry existance, i hope that you will recover from your phase, i had several suicidal attacks and then the doctors had to do my 4 ElectroConvulsiveTherapies, even after those i had bouts of severe depression, but Swimming has helped me to relax ,why don't you try swimming? if you don't know then even you can learn how to swim, there is no age limit for it. i hope you will forgive me for bieng too forward but i feel a kinship with all lithium patients. best of health to you, regards, fatima. gjlist wrote: Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat : gjlist- ------ There are 9 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Re: East Indian Chart Style "Denis 1008" 2. Dealing with Mental Disease Das Goravani 3. Chart style "Denis Dumancic" 4. ANALYSE 9 TH 10 TH AND 11 TH HOUSE REQUEST hiren desai 5. Several astrological parameters show similar pattern on the date of traumatic incident Shyaam Sunder Kansal 6. Re: Dealing with Mental Disease Yana 7. Re: Dealing with Mental Disease Das Goravani 8. NAMES - Dealing With Mental Illness Yumnahzuel 9. Re: Dealing with Mental Disease Yana ______________________ ______________________ Message: 1 Sun, 5 Oct 2003 09:47:39 +0200 "Denis 1008" Re: East Indian Chart Style Yes, looks like. Denis1008 - "sanjayprabhakaran" To: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:17 PM [GJ] East Indian Chart Style > || Om Gurave Namah || > Dear Denis, > Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra Ch 8, Santanam Ed. > > dR^ishhTichakramahaM vaxye yayAvad.h brahmaNoditam.h | > tasya vinyAsamAtreNa dR^ishhTibhedaH prakAshyate || 6|| > prAchi meeshhavR^ishhau lekhyau karkasiMhau tathottare | > tulA.alI pashchime vipra mR^igakumbhau cha daxiNe || 7|| > IshakoNe tu mithunaM vAyavye kanyakAM tathA | > naurR^irtyAM chApamAlikhya vahnikoNe chhashhaM likhet.h || 8|| > evaM chaturbhujAkAraM vR^ittAkAramathApi vA | > dR^ishhTichakraM pravinyasyaivaM tato dR^ishhTiM vichArayet.h || 9|| > 6-9. Diagram of Dristhis. As depicted by Lord Brahma, I now narrate > the diagram of Drishtis, so that Drishtis are easily understood by a > mere sight of the diagram. Draw a square, or a circle marking the 8 > directions (4 corners and 4 quarters thereof). Mark the zodiacal > Rasis, as under: Mesh and Vrishabh in East, Mithun in the North-East, > Kark and Simh in the North, Kanya in the North-West, Tula and > Vrischik in the West, Dhanu in the South-West, Makar and Kumbh in the > South and Meen in the South-East. > > > Isn't this construction similar to East Indian Chart?, > > Warm Regards > S. Prabhakaran ______________________ ______________________ Message: 2 Sun, 05 Oct 2003 08:34:06 -0800 Das Goravani Dealing with Mental Disease > > I've left the internet behind a couple of weeks ago. > I'm very sick, mentally. I hope you find what heals you. For me, Lithium and Lexapro (seratonin) are working, with tranqualizers for the really bad attacks. But mainly Lithium really works. Also, I've learned to be PEACEFUL in mind IN THE MOMENT at each moment. I learned what types of thinking trigger panic and pain, and those are the thoughts of things that are more "out there" in space and time, and bigger than I can touch and handle right now. I've taken up painting pictures, Celtic art in my case, and this is tremendously "now", "here" and "present". It's very quiet when you paint a picture. I gave up fighting aging, and gave up the desire to have a wife NOW. I gave up thinking of things I can't control. I sit around much more without punishing myself for it. Other people do it. Why can't I? (I used to ONLY work- 24/7) It took me many years to learn these simple things, which words cannot accurately portray. Finally, in recent months, after years of pain, I am finally feeling happy and peaceful somewhat again, though nothing has changed in my life, and in fact, I am more poor than before, more alone than before (my kids moved out), and less hopeful of getting certain things. So most "indicators" are "worse", but I'm happier, because my attitude is really different- gave up wanting/worrying, and because of Lithium. Lithium is for those with manic symptoms, which I have had. It's not for everyone. Good luck to all who suffer this range of diseases. By the way, some of the people I'm closest too reject me for taking meds at all, thinking that they are aware of better "above and beyond" methods of healing. I can honestly say that I experience rejection because of thinking that I have a mental disease, and dealing with "doctors". I am associated with "alternative healers" who reject doctors, their pills, Lithium, and the very idea of "mental disease" on face value. So I know what that's like. I'm getting it at point blank range. Having experience what I have however, I can only ignore this part of them, while trying to maintain love in a normal way for the rest of them. If they could feel the "before" and "after" feelings as I did before and after Lithium, they would understand. I say this last paragraph to throw a spotlight on the ever present situation of "Ignorance of Mental Disease" and "Prejudice towards Mental Disease". Yesterday yet another "healer" who uses my software told me that mental disease, especially Bi Polar, doesn't exist, and can be cured with mantra and "entity clearing" which they offered to me through a pamplet they emailed me. Believe me, no emailed pamphlet can cure Bi Polar. If I gather all the Manics of history together, and told them all that story and got them to focus their laughing in response, we could level New York with the combined sound volume of their laughing. If you are a healer, don't think you can wipe out Bi Polar with your machinations of mantras, soul retrievals, herbs, etc, no more than you can do a nose job. If your cures can't put an arm back onto a war veteran who lost one, then don't think you can do NERVE SURGERY either. Some people have "unique" nervous systems and brains. The doctors who are studying brain waves are doing Much more to help us than those who think their latest new age training is the cure for all disease. The studies ongoing around autistic people for example, will reveal alot about the different types of mental disease. I find that promising and interesting. I say all this to let folks know how I've been put through tons of new age treatments, from Reiki to Soul Clearing to you name it... and nothing for me came close to what Lithium did in a few days. Not even close. Not to put those things down, but for severe mental problems, or any acute disease, they may not be appropriate. The arrogance with which some "healers" have spoken to me about my problems was at first alluring. Eventually I saw it as annoying, and lately it's became offensive and appalling. I urge healers to watch their arrogance and application, and I urge the sick to seek help which REALLY WORKS for them, and not stagnate working with healers who aren't healing them. In order so as not to receive more annoying emails about hair brained cures for Bi Polar, let me say, no change in diet, no excercise, massage, shamans, etc did for me what Lithium does. I tried SO MANY things. I am Das Goravani. I'm known by thousands. I made my problems known publicly. I got GOBS of help from all over the world. Really TONS of all varieties from cookies to Gurus in India doing Pujas on my behalf. Nothing helped really, but the day I took Lithium, my life started to improve, and the disease subsided within a short period of time, and I'm functioning again without freaking out all the time. Lithium is a natural element. So it's naturopathic, you could say. It's natural. It's not man made, so you would think these folks, the new age healers, would respect it, but no, they don't, because doctors prescribe it, I guess. Anyway, don't send me any new muffin recipes, or mantras, or Reike, fengsui, etc etc., ... This is not to discourage anyone in new age healing. NO WAY. But lets keep it appropriate, and know when things are beyond our scope, or need something we don't have. Peace Das Goravani, President 2852 Willamette St, #353 Eugene, OR, 97405, USA-America Voice: or in America http://www.DancingMoonInc.com ______________________ ______________________ Message: 3 Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:49:46 +0200 "Denis Dumancic" Chart style Regarding the chart style: I also do not agree that there is no difference in the chart formats. There are. (Be prepared, a long and very interesting text): It appears that both North Indian and East Indian chart formats are heavily influenced by the Muslim conquerors of these geographical regions which were under Muslim domination for about 800 years. In contrast, South India, though finaly conquered by the Muslims, was only under their domination for the short time and parts of South India remained independent. The Muslim domination of the North and East did muct to change certain cultural habits of the poeple, their manner of dress, and certain external habits became different from that of South India which is largely independent. It is well known that the Muslim invaders from Arrabia, Persia and Afganistan already knew astrology, as can be seen by studying the works of Al'beruni, Abraham Ibn Ezra, Abu Mashar and Masha Allah. Al'beruni a contemporary of the rapacious Mahmud of Ghazni, spent long periods in India. Thus, the main court astrologers, or at least the original cour astrologers of these new comers to North and East India were also Muslims - Arabs, Persians, Afganis, Turkmens, Pathans, Uzbeks and Tajikas, etc. All of whom were steeped in the astrological traditions of the Middle East. This tradition was an amalgam of Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Chaldaean, Hebrew, Egyptain, Babylonian, Sassanian (Persian), Arabian, and Vedic astrology. The previous mentioned systems were themselves originally of Vedic origin, but had gone through many changes so as to make them distinctively different. For example, they were tropical instead sidereal. The Tajika system used in India today is a blend of Middle Eastern astrology with some Vedic elements. It is definitely not Vedic astrology. What is known today as Tajika-Nilakanthi came from the Tajik school of astrology in Tajikastan, a country located in the area around Balkh in modern day Northen Afganistan and bodering in Tajikastan (former Tajik SSR). Abu Mashar (787-886 A.D.) "one of the most renowed of Islamic astrologers" was from Balkh. The chart formats employed by Muslim court astrologers was typically Midle Eastern and the same as used by the ancient Greeks and Romans. And what did the chart format of the ancient Greeks and Romans look like? Several ancient Greek and Latin manuscripts are still preserved which contain the horoscopes of persons both famous and unknown. Antigonus of Nicaea, a 2nd century AD physician-astrologer, compiled a collection of historical horoscopes including the horoscope of the Emperor Hadrian. The original collection was lost, but the chart of Hadrian and others survived because the astrologer Hephaestion of Thebes (4th century AD) excerpted this chart and others from the collection of Antigonus and published it for his students. (NOTE: Cramer, p. 165. See also Neugebauer and van Hoesen.) The diagram of Hadrian's chart is identical to that used in North India today, except that the Lagna is not at the top but on the left side. This very same chart format was used by Western astrologers until the end of the 19 th century. A good, graphical example of how European astrologers used a chart format practically identical to that of North Indian astrologers can be found in the 1983 reprint of the 1814 translation from Latin of Placidus de Titis' 1657 work Primum Mobile. The present day wheel format of the Western astrologers, while circular, still places the Lagna in the same position, at the left side, as it did in the rectangular format. The East Indian chart format seems to be derived directly from a traditional style used in the Middle East; especially from the Sassanian dynasty of Persia which ended with the invasion of the Muslim Arabs. An example of this Sassanian chart format can be seen in the works of the 8th century AD astrologer Masha' Allah translated by Pingree and Kennedy. This chart format was later adopted by the Islamic astrologers and brought to India where it became the standard in the royal courts of East India. The difference between the Middle Eastern and East Indian format is that the Middle Eastern system, like the N. Indian system, had no fixed place for signs but is more concerned with the houses, thus the houses are always represented by the same position; whereas in the East Indian system it is the signs which remain in the same position as in the South Indian system. So the East Indian system is a combination of the S. Indian system which emphasises the signs while keeping the general format of the Middle Eastern system. How did this Greek-Muslim format come into vouge in North and East India? Since the Muslim court astrologers used this format, anyone who wanted to get influence in the Muslim royal courts had to adopt the same format. And, since traditionally it was royalty that patronized the arts and sciences it is not surprising that if some Hindu astrologer wanted to become recognized by the court he would adopt the de facto format used by the Muslim royal astrologers. Some astrologers may even have converted to Islam, as Tanden did, in order to gain more influence. In the course of 800 years what was the fashion of the royal court became the fashion of the people. We however are not concerned with fashion but rather with the Vedic tradition. It seems that the Vedic tradition is best represented by the South Indian format. While this format has been described by the Rsis, the same cannot be said about the North and East Indian formats. In the Vedas and in particular in Vedic astronomical texts the vantage point of the stellar observer is with his back to the north and looking south. Thus the stars and planets would rise on the left (the east) and set to the right (the west) this describes a clock-wise motion. It is said that this represents the view of the devas who are looking down from above (north). The South Indian chart format reflects this because it is in a clock-wise orientation. The asuras would be looking from the opposite direction and thuse have a counter-clockwise orientation. This is the orientation of the North Indian, East Indian and Western (ancient and modern) chart formats, which are all counter-clockwise. Those who are acquainted with Vedic cultural traditions know that the pradaksina-marga (clock-wise motion) is condsidered auspicious while the opposite is unfortunate. Considering this it would seem highly likely that the Rsis would depict the kala-cakra oriented in the pradaksina-marga and not otherwise. And, indeed, they have as is seen in the work od Jaimini Rsi. Since it is known that Parasara Rsi also incorporated many od Jaimini's ideas it would seem that Jaimini's system is a case of specialized developement of certain areas of what is know as the Parasara system (Parasara didn't invent it). The point being that Jaimini didn't invent this chart format but was continuing an original system. It just happens that this presentation of astrology happens to specifically mention this format while others do not specify any format. Aside from the historical pedigrees there are important practical advantages for using the perfect Vedic system: * In Vedic astrology the position of Candra is second only to the Lagna in importance. If the Lagna is not known or uncertain then Candra becomes the Lagna. In any case it is advised to study the chart from both the Lagna and Candra Lagna. In the S. Indian (Vedic) format the orientation of the Rasis doesn't change. The astrologers simply looks at the same chart and studies it from the Lagna and Candra. However, the N. Indian (Middle Eastern) format is dependent on the Lagna, that is, which ever Rasi is the Lagna, a separate chart diagram must be drawn up with the Moon put in place where the Lagna would be. This necessitates having to draw another chart when only one suffices in the Vedic system. * The Vedic format is suited for doing Prasna whereas the Middle Eastern format is not. Astrology teachers in South India are specialists in Prasna and often do many Prasnas a day sometimes several dozen in one afternoon. In such cases the planetary position is virtually the same for each prasna, only the Lagna changes. Using the Vedic chart format we have only to place a mark in the next Rasi to indicate the new Lagna. Whereas using the Middle Eastern format every ime there is a change in Lagna in the Rasi or Navamsa a new diagram must be drawn. This takes up time and introduces the possibility of error by incorrect placement of planets. * Again in the field of Prasna using various methods finding the Arudha Lagna would be very difficult using the Middle Eastern format, but simple using the Vedic formst. It is described in Astamangala Deva Prasna how the Arudha Lagna is chosen by a young child going to an unmarked diagram and choosing one of the squares. In the Vedic format each square represents a Rasi. This Rasi becomes the Arudha Lagna and the house placements are then calculated and the reading done. How could this be done using the Middle Eastern format where a diagram only represents houses not signs? If a section of the diagram were chosen, it would indicate a house not a Rasi, how then could the Arudha Lagna be chosen? Another method of choosing the Arudha Lagna would be for the astrologer to mentally divide the ground in front of him into a Vedic chart diagram. Then if a questioner came and stood in one of the Rasis that would represent the Arudha Lagna and the predicions could be made. Again, this would be impossible using the Middle Eastern format. * In Jaimini astrology signs aspect signs so this would be messy to do if diagramatic orientation of the signs from one another was continuously changing with each different Lagna as would be the case with the North Indian chart format. >From a strictly utilitarian view it would appear that the Vedic format is much more useful than the Middle Eastern format regarding ease of use, not having to redraw the chart as often, and being able to do things with the Vedic format which are impossible with the Middle Eastern. From this vantage point the Vedic format is superior. Another advantage of the Vedic format over the Middle Eastern is that the vast majority of books written in English on Vedic astrology use the Vedic format, not the Middle Eastern. It would thus behoove the student to use the Vedic format for this reason alone. An objection is sometimes raised by the advocates of the Middle Eastern chart format: that being in their system it is very easy to identify which houses are the kendras (quadrant) and trikonas (trinal). This may be true for a complete neophyte in astrology, that is, a student who has been at it for a few days. But any student, after only a few lessons, will be able to quickly know which are the kendras and konas for each Lagna using the Vedic format. In fact I don't know of any student who ever felt themselves at a disadvantafe using the Vedic format when they first started studying. Why saddle oneself with all the disadvantages of the Middle Eastern format and lose the advantages of the Vedic format for cuch a paltry gain. A gain which would be outgrown in a week or two of study. This would be like keeping your trainer wheels on you bicycle for ever, even after you learnt how to ride without them. === message truncated === India Matrimony: Find your partner online.Post your profile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2003 Report Share Posted October 9, 2003 Hello Dear Fatima, Hope this finds you in the best of your health and spirit. I agree with you one hundred percent that nothing ( Kavach, Remedial measurers, Mantra etc.) can change the destiny. But what makes the change ( energy flowing to and from) is how it helps one to arrive at the destiny while performing remedial meansurers, doing Mantras and wearing Kavach etc. makes all the difference. That difference is the key one can only gain to reach towards one's own destiny with or without peace of mind. Hope the above is helpful. Best wishes..................Amar Puri. >fatima hussain <fionatamer20022002 >gjlist >gjlist >Re: [GJ] Digest Number 1432 >Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:49:38 +0100 (BST) > >hello Mr. Das Gorvani, > i read the emails you have posted to the group, believe me you >are not the only one on lithium, i am 25 years old and i am on lithium >,zoloft, glucophage,verapamel, renitec and glucobay since the last 7 years. >i have manic-depressive /bipolar, polycystic ovaries, diabetes type II ,& >hypertension. i was a medical student but i had to leave the university, i >tried several remedies but nothing has ever worked. > you are right , destiny does not change its course due to >mantras, remedies or kavach etc ; it is just that we have to learn that god >has destined for us to be this way and yet be content with our lot. > i believe Das that there is a purpose although it may even be pain >alone for our sorry existance, i hope that you will recover from your >phase, i had several suicidal attacks and then the doctors had to do my 4 >ElectroConvulsiveTherapies, even after those i had bouts of severe >depression, but Swimming has helped me to relax ,why don't you try >swimming? if you don't know then even you can learn how to swim, there is >no age limit for it. i hope you will forgive me for bieng too forward but i >feel a kinship with all lithium patients. > best of health to you, regards, fatima. > >gjlist wrote: > > >Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat >: gjlist- > > >------ > >There are 9 messages in this issue. > >Topics in this digest: > >1. Re: East Indian Chart Style >"Denis 1008" >2. Dealing with Mental Disease >Das Goravani >3. Chart style >"Denis Dumancic" >4. ANALYSE 9 TH 10 TH AND 11 TH HOUSE REQUEST >hiren desai >5. Several astrological parameters show similar pattern on the date of >traumatic incident >Shyaam Sunder Kansal >6. Re: Dealing with Mental Disease >Yana >7. Re: Dealing with Mental Disease >Das Goravani >8. NAMES - Dealing With Mental Illness >Yumnahzuel >9. Re: Dealing with Mental Disease >Yana > > >______________________ >______________________ > >Message: 1 >Sun, 5 Oct 2003 09:47:39 +0200 >"Denis 1008" >Re: East Indian Chart Style > >Yes, looks like. > >Denis1008 > >- >"sanjayprabhakaran" >To: >Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:17 PM >[GJ] East Indian Chart Style > > > > || Om Gurave Namah || > > Dear Denis, > > Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra Ch 8, Santanam Ed. > > > > dR^ishhTichakramahaM vaxye yayAvad.h brahmaNoditam.h | > > tasya vinyAsamAtreNa dR^ishhTibhedaH prakAshyate || 6|| > > prAchi meeshhavR^ishhau lekhyau karkasiMhau tathottare | > > tulA.alI pashchime vipra mR^igakumbhau cha daxiNe || 7|| > > IshakoNe tu mithunaM vAyavye kanyakAM tathA | > > naurR^irtyAM chApamAlikhya vahnikoNe chhashhaM likhet.h || 8|| > > evaM chaturbhujAkAraM vR^ittAkAramathApi vA | > > dR^ishhTichakraM pravinyasyaivaM tato dR^ishhTiM vichArayet.h || 9|| > > 6-9. Diagram of Dristhis. As depicted by Lord Brahma, I now narrate > > the diagram of Drishtis, so that Drishtis are easily understood by a > > mere sight of the diagram. Draw a square, or a circle marking the 8 > > directions (4 corners and 4 quarters thereof). Mark the zodiacal > > Rasis, as under: Mesh and Vrishabh in East, Mithun in the North-East, > > Kark and Simh in the North, Kanya in the North-West, Tula and > > Vrischik in the West, Dhanu in the South-West, Makar and Kumbh in the > > South and Meen in the South-East. > > > > > > Isn't this construction similar to East Indian Chart?, > > > > Warm Regards > > S. Prabhakaran > > > > >______________________ >______________________ > >Message: 2 >Sun, 05 Oct 2003 08:34:06 -0800 >Das Goravani >Dealing with Mental Disease > > > > > > I've left the internet behind a couple of weeks ago. > > I'm very sick, mentally. > > >I hope you find what heals you. For me, Lithium and Lexapro (seratonin) are >working, with tranqualizers for the really bad attacks. But mainly Lithium >really works. Also, I've learned to be PEACEFUL in mind IN THE MOMENT at >each moment. I learned what types of thinking trigger panic and pain, and >those are the thoughts of things that are more "out there" in space and >time, and bigger than I can touch and handle right now. > >I've taken up painting pictures, Celtic art in my case, and this is >tremendously "now", "here" and "present". It's very quiet when you paint a >picture. > >I gave up fighting aging, and gave up the desire to have a wife NOW. I gave >up thinking of things I can't control. I sit around much more without >punishing myself for it. Other people do it. Why can't I? (I used to ONLY >work- 24/7) > >It took me many years to learn these simple things, which words cannot >accurately portray. Finally, in recent months, after years of pain, I am >finally feeling happy and peaceful somewhat again, though nothing has >changed in my life, and in fact, I am more poor than before, more alone >than >before (my kids moved out), and less hopeful of getting certain things. So >most "indicators" are "worse", but I'm happier, because my attitude is >really different- gave up wanting/worrying, and because of Lithium. > >Lithium is for those with manic symptoms, which I have had. It's not for >everyone. > >Good luck to all who suffer this range of diseases. > >By the way, some of the people I'm closest too reject me for taking meds at >all, thinking that they are aware of better "above and beyond" methods of >healing. I can honestly say that I experience rejection because of thinking >that I have a mental disease, and dealing with "doctors". I am associated >with "alternative healers" who reject doctors, their pills, Lithium, and >the >very idea of "mental disease" on face value. So I know what that's like. >I'm >getting it at point blank range. > >Having experience what I have however, I can only ignore this part of them, >while trying to maintain love in a normal way for the rest of them. If they >could feel the "before" and "after" feelings as I did before and after >Lithium, they would understand. > >I say this last paragraph to throw a spotlight on the ever present >situation >of "Ignorance of Mental Disease" and "Prejudice towards Mental Disease". > >Yesterday yet another "healer" who uses my software told me that mental >disease, especially Bi Polar, doesn't exist, and can be cured with mantra >and "entity clearing" which they offered to me through a pamplet they >emailed me. > >Believe me, no emailed pamphlet can cure Bi Polar. > >If I gather all the Manics of history together, and told them all that >story >and got them to focus their laughing in response, we could level New York >with the combined sound volume of their laughing. > >If you are a healer, don't think you can wipe out Bi Polar with your >machinations of mantras, soul retrievals, herbs, etc, no more than you can >do a nose job. If your cures can't put an arm back onto a war veteran who >lost one, then don't think you can do NERVE SURGERY either. > >Some people have "unique" nervous systems and brains. The doctors who are >studying brain waves are doing Much more to help us than those who think >their latest new age training is the cure for all disease. > >The studies ongoing around autistic people for example, will reveal alot >about the different types of mental disease. I find that promising and >interesting. > >I say all this to let folks know how I've been put through tons of new age >treatments, from Reiki to Soul Clearing to you name it... and nothing for >me >came close to what Lithium did in a few days. Not even close. Not to put >those things down, but for severe mental problems, or any acute disease, >they may not be appropriate. > >The arrogance with which some "healers" have spoken to me about my problems >was at first alluring. Eventually I saw it as annoying, and lately it's >became offensive and appalling. I urge healers to watch their arrogance and >application, and I urge the sick to seek help which REALLY WORKS for them, >and not stagnate working with healers who aren't healing them. > >In order so as not to receive more annoying emails about hair brained cures >for Bi Polar, let me say, no change in diet, no excercise, massage, >shamans, >etc did for me what Lithium does. I tried SO MANY things. I am Das >Goravani. >I'm known by thousands. I made my problems known publicly. I got GOBS of >help from all over the world. Really TONS of all varieties from cookies to >Gurus in India doing Pujas on my behalf. Nothing helped really, but the day >I took Lithium, my life started to improve, and the disease subsided within >a short period of time, and I'm functioning again without freaking out all >the time. > >Lithium is a natural element. So it's naturopathic, you could say. It's >natural. It's not man made, so you would think these folks, the new age >healers, would respect it, but no, they don't, because doctors prescribe >it, >I guess. > >Anyway, don't send me any new muffin recipes, or mantras, or Reike, >fengsui, >etc etc., ... > >This is not to discourage anyone in new age healing. NO WAY. > >But lets keep it appropriate, and know when things are beyond our scope, or >need something we don't have. > > > >Peace > > >Das Goravani, President > >2852 Willamette St, #353 >Eugene, OR, 97405, USA-America >Voice: or in America > > >http://www.DancingMoonInc.com > > > >______________________ >______________________ > >Message: 3 >Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:49:46 +0200 >"Denis Dumancic" >Chart style > > >Regarding the chart style: > >I also do not agree that there is no difference in the chart formats. There >are. (Be prepared, a long and very interesting text): > >It appears that both North Indian and East Indian chart formats are heavily >influenced by the Muslim conquerors of these geographical regions which >were under Muslim domination for about 800 years. In contrast, South India, >though finaly conquered by the Muslims, was only under their domination for >the short time and parts of South India remained independent. > >The Muslim domination of the North and East did muct to change certain >cultural habits of the poeple, their manner of dress, and certain external >habits became different from that of South India which is largely >independent. > >It is well known that the Muslim invaders from Arrabia, Persia and >Afganistan already knew astrology, as can be seen by studying the works of >Al'beruni, Abraham Ibn Ezra, Abu Mashar and Masha Allah. Al'beruni a >contemporary of the rapacious Mahmud of Ghazni, spent long periods in >India. > >Thus, the main court astrologers, or at least the original cour astrologers >of these new comers to North and East India were also Muslims - Arabs, >Persians, Afganis, Turkmens, Pathans, Uzbeks and Tajikas, etc. All of whom >were steeped in the astrological traditions of the Middle East. This >tradition was an amalgam of Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Chaldaean, Hebrew, >Egyptain, Babylonian, Sassanian (Persian), Arabian, and Vedic astrology. > >The previous mentioned systems were themselves originally of Vedic origin, >but had gone through many changes so as to make them distinctively >different. For example, they were tropical instead sidereal. The Tajika >system used in India today is a blend of Middle Eastern astrology with some >Vedic elements. It is definitely not Vedic astrology. What is known today >as Tajika-Nilakanthi came from the Tajik school of astrology in Tajikastan, >a country located in the area around Balkh in modern day Northen Afganistan >and bodering in Tajikastan (former Tajik SSR). > >Abu Mashar (787-886 A.D.) "one of the most renowed of Islamic astrologers" >was from Balkh. The chart formats employed by Muslim court astrologers was >typically Midle Eastern and the same as used by the ancient Greeks and >Romans. And what did the chart format of the ancient Greeks and Romans look >like? > >Several ancient Greek and Latin manuscripts are still preserved which >contain the horoscopes of persons both famous and unknown. Antigonus of >Nicaea, a 2nd century AD physician-astrologer, compiled a collection of >historical horoscopes including the horoscope of the Emperor Hadrian. The >original collection was lost, but the chart of Hadrian and others survived >because the astrologer Hephaestion of Thebes (4th century AD) excerpted >this chart and others from the collection of Antigonus and published it for >his students. (NOTE: Cramer, p. 165. See also Neugebauer and van Hoesen.) > >The diagram of Hadrian's chart is identical to that used in North India >today, except that the Lagna is not at the top but on the left side. This >very same chart format was used by Western astrologers until the end of the >19 th century. A good, graphical example of how European astrologers used a >chart format practically identical to that of North Indian astrologers can >be found in the 1983 reprint of the 1814 translation from Latin of Placidus >de Titis' 1657 work Primum Mobile. The present day wheel format of the >Western astrologers, while circular, still places the Lagna in the same >position, at the left side, as it did in the rectangular format. > >The East Indian chart format seems to be derived directly from a >traditional style used in the Middle East; especially from the Sassanian >dynasty of Persia which ended with the invasion of the Muslim Arabs. An >example of this Sassanian chart format can be seen in the works of the 8th >century AD astrologer Masha' Allah translated by Pingree and Kennedy. This >chart format was later adopted by the Islamic astrologers and brought to >India where it became the standard in the royal courts of East India. > >The difference between the Middle Eastern and East Indian format is that >the Middle Eastern system, like the N. Indian system, had no fixed place >for signs but is more concerned with the houses, thus the houses are always >represented by the same position; whereas in the East Indian system it is >the signs which remain in the same position as in the South Indian system. >So the East Indian system is a combination of the S. Indian system which >emphasises the signs while keeping the general format of the Middle Eastern >system. > >How did this Greek-Muslim format come into vouge in North and East India? >Since the Muslim court astrologers used this format, anyone who wanted to >get influence in the Muslim royal courts had to adopt the same format. And, >since traditionally it was royalty that patronized the arts and sciences it >is not surprising that if some Hindu astrologer wanted to become recognized >by the court he would adopt the de facto format used by the Muslim royal >astrologers. Some astrologers may even have converted to Islam, as Tanden >did, in order to gain more influence. In the course of 800 years what was >the fashion of the royal court became the fashion of the people. > >We however are not concerned with fashion but rather with the Vedic >tradition. It seems that the Vedic tradition is best represented by the >South Indian format. While this format has been described by the Rsis, the >same cannot be said about the North and East Indian formats. > >In the Vedas and in particular in Vedic astronomical texts the vantage >point of the stellar observer is with his back to the north and looking >south. Thus the stars and planets would rise on the left (the east) and set >to the right (the west) this describes a clock-wise motion. It is said that >this represents the view of the devas who are looking down from above >(north). > >The South Indian chart format reflects this because it is in a clock-wise >orientation. The asuras would be looking from the opposite direction and >thuse have a counter-clockwise orientation. This is the orientation of the >North Indian, East Indian and Western (ancient and modern) chart formats, >which are all counter-clockwise. Those who are acquainted with Vedic >cultural traditions know that the pradaksina-marga (clock-wise motion) is >condsidered auspicious while the opposite is unfortunate. Considering this >it would seem highly likely that the Rsis would depict the kala-cakra >oriented in the pradaksina-marga and not otherwise. And, indeed, they have >as is seen in the work od Jaimini Rsi. > >Since it is known that Parasara Rsi also incorporated many od Jaimini's >ideas it would seem that Jaimini's system is a case of specialized >developement of certain areas of what is know as the Parasara system >(Parasara didn't invent it). The point being that Jaimini didn't invent >this chart format but was continuing an original system. It just happens >that this presentation of astrology happens to specifically mention this >format while others do not specify any format. > >Aside from the historical pedigrees there are important practical >advantages for using the perfect Vedic system: > >* In Vedic astrology the position of Candra is second only to the Lagna in >importance. If the Lagna is not known or uncertain then Candra becomes the >Lagna. In any case it is advised to study the chart from both the Lagna and >Candra Lagna. In the S. Indian (Vedic) format the orientation of the Rasis >doesn't change. The astrologers simply looks at the same chart and studies >it from the Lagna and Candra. However, the N. Indian (Middle Eastern) >format is dependent on the Lagna, that is, which ever Rasi is the Lagna, a >separate chart diagram must be drawn up with the Moon put in place where >the Lagna would be. This necessitates having to draw another chart when >only one suffices in the Vedic system. > >* The Vedic format is suited for doing Prasna whereas the Middle Eastern >format is not. Astrology teachers in South India are specialists in Prasna >and often do many Prasnas a day sometimes several dozen in one afternoon. >In such cases the planetary position is virtually the same for each prasna, >only the Lagna changes. Using the Vedic chart format we have only to place >a mark in the next Rasi to indicate the new Lagna. Whereas using the Middle >Eastern format every ime there is a change in Lagna in the Rasi or Navamsa >a new diagram must be drawn. This takes up time and introduces the >possibility of error by incorrect placement of planets. > >* Again in the field of Prasna using various methods finding the Arudha >Lagna would be very difficult using the Middle Eastern format, but simple >using the Vedic formst. It is described in Astamangala Deva Prasna how the >Arudha Lagna is chosen by a young child going to an unmarked diagram and >choosing one of the squares. In the Vedic format each square represents a >Rasi. This Rasi becomes the Arudha Lagna and the house placements are then >calculated and the reading done. How could this be done using the Middle >Eastern format where a diagram only represents houses not signs? If a >section of the diagram were chosen, it would indicate a house not a Rasi, >how then could the Arudha Lagna be chosen? Another method of choosing the >Arudha Lagna would be for the astrologer to mentally divide the ground in >front of him into a Vedic chart diagram. Then if a questioner came and >stood in one of the Rasis that would represent the Arudha Lagna and the >predicions could be made. Again, this would be > impossible using the Middle Eastern format. > >* In Jaimini astrology signs aspect signs so this would be messy to do if >diagramatic orientation of the signs from one another was continuously >changing with each different Lagna as would be the case with the North >Indian chart format. > >From a strictly utilitarian view it would appear that the Vedic format is >much more useful than the Middle Eastern format regarding ease of use, not >having to redraw the chart as often, and being able to do things with the >Vedic format which are impossible with the Middle Eastern. From this >vantage point the Vedic format is superior. > >Another advantage of the Vedic format over the Middle Eastern is that the >vast majority of books written in English on Vedic astrology use the Vedic >format, not the Middle Eastern. It would thus behoove the student to use >the Vedic format for this reason alone. > >An objection is sometimes raised by the advocates of the Middle Eastern >chart format: that being in their system it is very easy to identify which >houses are the kendras (quadrant) and trikonas (trinal). This may be true >for a complete neophyte in astrology, that is, a student who has been at it >for a few days. But any student, after only a few lessons, will be able to >quickly know which are the kendras and konas for each Lagna using the Vedic >format. > >In fact I don't know of any student who ever felt themselves at a >disadvantafe using the Vedic format when they first started studying. Why >saddle oneself with all the disadvantages of the Middle Eastern format and >lose the advantages of the Vedic format for cuch a paltry gain. A gain >which would be outgrown in a week or two of study. This would be like >keeping your trainer wheels on you bicycle for ever, even after you learnt >how to ride without them. > > >=== message truncated === > India Matrimony: Find your partner online.Post your profile. > > > > > > > >Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat >: gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > _______________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.