Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Thanks to the respondees of my questions. I make astrology software with alot of features because they are expected, and needed to compete, but I personally use only the rashi and sometimes the dashas, transits and navamsa, but that's it. For example, my daughter, she's married and has a baby. So when I talk to her about life, I might carefully mention one planet, or two, in her rashi, and what that means just a bit, and give just a little advice, like treading on eggshells, and I'd do the same for everyone, because, any more than that and you tend to enter into the realm of "fate controls you" and that makes people feel bad, usually. So I don't use a fatalistic approach AT ALL when talking to real people about their charts. I only do that on this list as an intellectual, spiritual, philosophical discussion, really. I THINK about those matters, as a matter of philosophical/spiritual thought, question, but I don't use that attitude at all when talking to people because we are, they are, so fragile in mind and heart, and astrology can be so damaging to their minds. Recently a couple approached me with their sons chart. By most measures, it was a "bad chart", in that it had alot of dustana activity, including 4 planets in the 8th, including Sun, Moon and Mercury. He's only 18. At that time he was away at college on a full sports scholarship. I intimated to them to expect some difficult experiences "now and then". I tried to word it very lightly. I tried to say truth, but very lightly spoken. Very soon thereafter he called them and announced he was quitting college. This of course was a shock. He just started. The 8th house is not very supportive of higher education being 12th to the 9th. So that's another example. In real life, I hardly say anything. This is what I meant by "people's karma is sticky". It's not looking down on them, rather, it's just recognizing the fine line we tread when talking to people. The tension when reading a chart is exactly like the tension for the defendent in a courtroom when the Jury and Judge are about to read their verdict and pronounce sentencing. It's VERY tense. Astrologers should be masters of wordsmithing and compassion. People WANT things, that they will not get. How to tell them that? How to tell them that their marriage is doomed? It's so very hard. So I don't. This is why I don't read charts. I'm absolutely unable to lie, and they often sense that I'm dodging the real matter, so I just avoid it. Plus, I have compassion, and can see their future pains, and cannot bear it. I can barely handle my own. As for me getting out, I don't quite know how to. I want to get out of my cave, but I don't know how. I have tried, and I ended up always in strange situations, getting involved with people in odd ways, because I'm so very open, loving, caring, or with near street people, giving them shelter in my apartment, buying them things, etc. After my attempts at socializing, I always end up back alone, more spent, more sad. It never works. All's I ever need was just one- a wife, and I had that for a long time. Years ago when #2 ended, I fell apart and am just now getting myself back together. But my "together" of these days is supported by Lithium, Lexapro, and Clonazepam. If those were gone I'd be, hmmm, I hate to think of it. People say you can find life again without the meds. I would need community. I don't know where that is. I really want some woman to love me who I also love. RG Krishnan, a well known Indian astrologer, once did to me what I will never do to anyone, he just blurted out at a dinner party that "Das Goravani will NEVER have marital happiness". (Just based on Mars in 12th) It hurt bad and I'll never forget it. But he also told my first wife I'd never leave her in the next breath, and we've been divorced for many years now. I appreciate Matt's response- the part about fatalism being a turn off. Yes, it is. It's a big turn off to most people as I've said. Remember, it's just an intellectual discussion for me. I always say "It doesn't matter". Another point: No astrologer that I've seen is good enough to FULFILL the supposed ability of astrology to really predict anyway. Think of that carefully. Even if astrology is so powerfully fatalistic, we will never taste that, because we're not good enough. So in the end, it's NOT fatalistic. In practicality, it's FAR FROM being fatalistic. In fact therefore, we can say, it's just a bunch of "maybes" or "possibilities" and it's STILL UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL to make their life whatever they want, because NOBODY can predict it properly. I can say this because I'm grand central for hearing from everyone how their readings did or did not go with their astrologers. Nobody is getting their predictions right all the time. At best it's 50% for the very best, and that I'm giving them. It's probably more like 20%. Some of the big names have been flat out opposite wrong when it really matters, predicting compatibility high, between later mortal enemies, money for those ending up poor, healing for those who die of their wounds, you name it, the list goes on. So it's not fatalistic, in reality, practicality, in the end, bottom line. That's JUST an intellectual discussion amongst those who care to refine their relationship with the divine on that level. That is the problem with my head. I care to understand very deeply. I am a scientist of spiritual thought, and then I guess I introduce those ideas here, and weird out the residents! Sorry! I want anyone who read this far to know, that I am very loving and compassionate. I do not judge any post. I wish I had the energy to answer them all. I don't. My meds keep me rather de-energized. My memory of life before them was sheer horror (when I posted my pain often here). I hope to one day get off them, have energy, and not be in horror. So post, talk, and don't feel that you have to make things seem this way or that. Make astrology yours. Use it your way. My intellectualizing is just one way of seeing things. I would rather see others happy, than see them sad because of having to conform to mine or another way of thinking. For we are made differently, and cannot change that. I want my freedom to be me, and respect your right to be you. Roik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Dear Roik, The human astrologer too is always caught up in the "doership" syndrome. They forget that they too are instruments in the hands of the Lord/Nature. If planets make someone to seek (or rather indicate someone seeking) help from an astrologer to remedy their situation, how can the astrologer, who knows and interprets it, think that whatever he/she says to the client is not predestined. What value are they really adding to the course of nature? Or, are they imagining that they are not within its grip, somehow, due to their imagined "knowership". ( The word "knowership" just popped into my head, I also realize that some people may hear it as "no worship".) If these astrologers don't delude themselves, they would all end up like you. Loving regards, Arun "Anatovai Vedah" gjlist, Das Goravani <das@g...> wrote: > > Thanks to the respondees of my questions. > > I make astrology software with alot of features because they are expected, > and needed to compete, but I personally use only the rashi and sometimes the > dashas, transits and navamsa, but that's it. > > For example, my daughter, she's married and has a baby. So when I talk to > her about life, I might carefully mention one planet, or two, in her rashi, > and what that means just a bit, and give just a little advice, like treading > on eggshells, and I'd do the same for everyone, because, any more than that > and you tend to enter into the realm of "fate controls you" and that makes > people feel bad, usually. > > So I don't use a fatalistic approach AT ALL when talking to real people > about their charts. I only do that on this list as an intellectual, > spiritual, philosophical discussion, really. I THINK about those matters, as > a matter of philosophical/spiritual thought, question, but I don't use that > attitude at all when talking to people because we are, they are, so fragile > in mind and heart, and astrology can be so damaging to their minds. > > Recently a couple approached me with their sons chart. By most measures, it > was a "bad chart", in that it had alot of dustana activity, including 4 > planets in the 8th, including Sun, Moon and Mercury. He's only 18. At that > time he was away at college on a full sports scholarship. I intimated to > them to expect some difficult experiences "now and then". I tried to word it > very lightly. I tried to say truth, but very lightly spoken. > > Very soon thereafter he called them and announced he was quitting college. > This of course was a shock. He just started. The 8th house is not very > supportive of higher education being 12th to the 9th. > > So that's another example. In real life, I hardly say anything. This is what > I meant by "people's karma is sticky". It's not looking down on them, > rather, it's just recognizing the fine line we tread when talking to people. > > The tension when reading a chart is exactly like the tension for the > defendent in a courtroom when the Jury and Judge are about to read their > verdict and pronounce sentencing. It's VERY tense. Astrologers should be > masters of wordsmithing and compassion. > > People WANT things, that they will not get. How to tell them that? How to > tell them that their marriage is doomed? It's so very hard. So I don't. > This is why I don't read charts. I'm absolutely unable to lie, and they > often sense that I'm dodging the real matter, so I just avoid it. Plus, I > have compassion, and can see their future pains, and cannot bear it. I can > barely handle my own. > > As for me getting out, I don't quite know how to. I want to get out of my > cave, but I don't know how. I have tried, and I ended up always in strange > situations, getting involved with people in odd ways, because I'm so very > open, loving, caring, or with near street people, giving them shelter in my > apartment, buying them things, etc. After my attempts at socializing, I > always end up back alone, more spent, more sad. It never works. All's I ever > need was just one- a wife, and I had that for a long time. Years ago when #2 > ended, I fell apart and am just now getting myself back together. But my > "together" of these days is supported by Lithium, Lexapro, and Clonazepam. > If those were gone I'd be, hmmm, I hate to think of it. > > People say you can find life again without the meds. I would need community. > I don't know where that is. I really want some woman to love me who I also > love. RG Krishnan, a well known Indian astrologer, once did to me what I > will never do to anyone, he just blurted out at a dinner party that "Das > Goravani will NEVER have marital happiness". (Just based on Mars in 12th) > It hurt bad and I'll never forget it. But he also told my first wife I'd > never leave her in the next breath, and we've been divorced for many years > now. > > I appreciate Matt's response- the part about fatalism being a turn off. Yes, > it is. It's a big turn off to most people as I've said. Remember, it's just > an intellectual discussion for me. I always say "It doesn't matter". > > Another point: No astrologer that I've seen is good enough to FULFILL the > supposed ability of astrology to really predict anyway. > > Think of that carefully. Even if astrology is so powerfully fatalistic, we > will never taste that, because we're not good enough. So in the end, it's > NOT fatalistic. In practicality, it's FAR FROM being fatalistic. > > In fact therefore, we can say, it's just a bunch of "maybes" or > "possibilities" and it's STILL UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL to make their life > whatever they want, because NOBODY can predict it properly. I can say this > because I'm grand central for hearing from everyone how their readings did > or did not go with their astrologers. > > Nobody is getting their predictions right all the time. At best it's 50% for > the very best, and that I'm giving them. It's probably more like 20%. > > Some of the big names have been flat out opposite wrong when it really > matters, predicting compatibility high, between later mortal enemies, money > for those ending up poor, healing for those who die of their wounds, you > name it, the list goes on. > > So it's not fatalistic, in reality, practicality, in the end, bottom line. > > That's JUST an intellectual discussion amongst those who care to refine > their relationship with the divine on that level. That is the problem with > my head. I care to understand very deeply. I am a scientist of spiritual > thought, and then I guess I introduce those ideas here, and weird out the > residents! Sorry! > > I want anyone who read this far to know, that I am very loving and > compassionate. I do not judge any post. I wish I had the energy to answer > them all. I don't. My meds keep me rather de-energized. My memory of life > before them was sheer horror (when I posted my pain often here). I hope to > one day get off them, have energy, and not be in horror. > > So post, talk, and don't feel that you have to make things seem this way or > that. Make astrology yours. Use it your way. My intellectualizing is just > one way of seeing things. I would rather see others happy, than see them sad > because of having to conform to mine or another way of thinking. For we are > made differently, and cannot change that. I want my freedom to be me, and > respect your right to be you. > > Roik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Dear Das, All your realisations regarding astrological practice are quite familiar to many people practicing jyotish, as to me. My personal view is that we have to transcend the duality of free will and destiny, as well of good and bad, to make a good use of astrology. Like with a good father, who leads you keeping your hand in his, sometimes he gives you direction and sometimes you ask him to go where you like. Are not our desires to do something in the realm shown to us by the father also his creations? Are not his suggestions to us to experience and live what he gives also our own volition? Are not our own choices based on intelligence provided by him also his choices? Why make it so important to sort it out who at a specific time is leading? Isn't a mutual loving cooperation more important? I feel there is more in the concept of "acintya bheda-abheda-tattva" for us to see than we can now. We stress the difference too much, at the expense of the oneness, or actually of divine partnership. Being able to see that behind everything that happens there is a higher plan and destiny is quite a start in grasping the use of Jyotish. I feel understanding of a destination is by far more important. All that is given to us is for our learning, our soul's development. Somebody wrote that most of the planets are of malefic nature, therefore the Earth is a place of suffering. Yes, I agree with that, but I would rather say it is place of learning. Our development takes place on the very edge of our enthusiasm, ability, knowledge, acceptance, strength, faith, experience, etc.What is the use of repeating many times the same easy lesson, if it doesn't do any good anymore? We are given life with a plan for our development, not for so called karma to burn out. Waiting for karma to burn out, not trying to pervade that experience with our empathy and higher wisdom, would be a waste of life. You have written that people usually expect to hear nice things. They would like to come and see how their horoscope unfolds some very nice scenario of their vacation, or life success. Less people expect to hear the plan of life's lectures and examinations. That is true. Therefore I think a practitioner of Jyotish should be a therapist and advisor. My own perception is that when I really go deep into questions people ask, I find most of them are not to be answered from their horoscope. People want to know what their life is about, what is its meaning, a spiritual goal for them to achieve. They want to affirm their own value. Even if they are not consicious of that. If we don't practice Jyotish just for money, but for other people wellness, we do not have to cheat them, or scare them. We can advice them according to their and our own best abilities. We don't have to tell them details of everything difficult that might wait for them in their life. We may stress, if we are able to understand it ourselves, what is a lesson they learn in their life. And why is this lesson so important. How it serves their soul's progress. But this requires quite an understanding. This is better as whatever happens they would remember it later (hopefully in time of despair, or reflection). This kind of information is more positive. It affirms their experience in a positive way, reaching to the goal, to the meaning of their life. Like a lady who was shown on TV from Iran, saying: "How can I live now?", after she lost her husband and all her children. When the greatest pain goes away, the quest for live's meaning, and of experienced events, comes. We are unable to change people's destiny, or their life's plan. But we can be of help to them, if we know the truth, how they could understand their life. Knowing Jyotish helps us to investigate their destiny and it affirms our own understanding in these efforts. As far as remedial measures are concerned, a dedicated son, or daughter, who knows why their father arranged a specific lesson in their life, and what is the purpose, might rather ask for more lessons, instead of asking for removing them, wiping them out. But for those lacking this understanding, trying to bribe their father might be seen as a childish stage of developing the relationship with a parent. As child who repeteadly comes and asks for the same thing, which was earlier denied. What would be the result, and lesson coming from that, the parents know. So, my suggestion is that we can positively practice spiritual therapy and advising if we can try to convey people about how they can be free in their choices, when they strive to understand how their life's lessons fulfill their development and accept them. I feel that there is a divine partnership in a mutual decision taken by us before this life and of our superiors. What we take as destiny, is our own choice, which we usually don't remember. A part of our choice now is to accept it and live it. Sorry for that longer writing, but I was inspired by your last posts. That can be taken also as an answer to some of your previous questions about this GJ list. All the best to all participants of GJ list in a New Year! Bart Glowacki - "Das Goravani" <> <gjlist> Wednesday, December 31, 2003 5:05 PM [GJ] Revelations > > Thanks to the respondees of my questions. > > I make astrology software with alot of features because they are expected, > and needed to compete, but I personally use only the rashi and sometimes the > dashas, transits and navamsa, but that's it. > > For example, my daughter, she's married and has a baby. So when I talk to > her about life, I might carefully mention one planet, or two, in her rashi, > and what that means just a bit, and give just a little advice, like treading > on eggshells, and I'd do the same for everyone, because, any more than that > and you tend to enter into the realm of "fate controls you" and that makes > people feel bad, usually. > > So I don't use a fatalistic approach AT ALL when talking to real people > about their charts. I only do that on this list as an intellectual, > spiritual, philosophical discussion, really. I THINK about those matters, as > a matter of philosophical/spiritual thought, question, but I don't use that > attitude at all when talking to people because we are, they are, so fragile > in mind and heart, and astrology can be so damaging to their minds. > > Recently a couple approached me with their sons chart. By most measures, it > was a "bad chart", in that it had alot of dustana activity, including 4 > planets in the 8th, including Sun, Moon and Mercury. He's only 18. At that > time he was away at college on a full sports scholarship. I intimated to > them to expect some difficult experiences "now and then". I tried to word it > very lightly. I tried to say truth, but very lightly spoken. > > Very soon thereafter he called them and announced he was quitting college. > This of course was a shock. He just started. The 8th house is not very > supportive of higher education being 12th to the 9th. > > So that's another example. In real life, I hardly say anything. This is what > I meant by "people's karma is sticky". It's not looking down on them, > rather, it's just recognizing the fine line we tread when talking to people. > > The tension when reading a chart is exactly like the tension for the > defendent in a courtroom when the Jury and Judge are about to read their > verdict and pronounce sentencing. It's VERY tense. Astrologers should be > masters of wordsmithing and compassion. > > People WANT things, that they will not get. How to tell them that? How to > tell them that their marriage is doomed? It's so very hard. So I don't. > This is why I don't read charts. I'm absolutely unable to lie, and they > often sense that I'm dodging the real matter, so I just avoid it. Plus, I > have compassion, and can see their future pains, and cannot bear it. I can > barely handle my own. > > As for me getting out, I don't quite know how to. I want to get out of my > cave, but I don't know how. I have tried, and I ended up always in strange > situations, getting involved with people in odd ways, because I'm so very > open, loving, caring, or with near street people, giving them shelter in my > apartment, buying them things, etc. After my attempts at socializing, I > always end up back alone, more spent, more sad. It never works. All's I ever > need was just one- a wife, and I had that for a long time. Years ago when #2 > ended, I fell apart and am just now getting myself back together. But my > "together" of these days is supported by Lithium, Lexapro, and Clonazepam. > If those were gone I'd be, hmmm, I hate to think of it. > > People say you can find life again without the meds. I would need community. > I don't know where that is. I really want some woman to love me who I also > love. RG Krishnan, a well known Indian astrologer, once did to me what I > will never do to anyone, he just blurted out at a dinner party that "Das > Goravani will NEVER have marital happiness". (Just based on Mars in 12th) > It hurt bad and I'll never forget it. But he also told my first wife I'd > never leave her in the next breath, and we've been divorced for many years > now. > > I appreciate Matt's response- the part about fatalism being a turn off. Yes, > it is. It's a big turn off to most people as I've said. Remember, it's just > an intellectual discussion for me. I always say "It doesn't matter". > > Another point: No astrologer that I've seen is good enough to FULFILL the > supposed ability of astrology to really predict anyway. > > Think of that carefully. Even if astrology is so powerfully fatalistic, we > will never taste that, because we're not good enough. So in the end, it's > NOT fatalistic. In practicality, it's FAR FROM being fatalistic. > > In fact therefore, we can say, it's just a bunch of "maybes" or > "possibilities" and it's STILL UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL to make their life > whatever they want, because NOBODY can predict it properly. I can say this > because I'm grand central for hearing from everyone how their readings did > or did not go with their astrologers. > > Nobody is getting their predictions right all the time. At best it's 50% for > the very best, and that I'm giving them. It's probably more like 20%. > > Some of the big names have been flat out opposite wrong when it really > matters, predicting compatibility high, between later mortal enemies, money > for those ending up poor, healing for those who die of their wounds, you > name it, the list goes on. > > So it's not fatalistic, in reality, practicality, in the end, bottom line. > > That's JUST an intellectual discussion amongst those who care to refine > their relationship with the divine on that level. That is the problem with > my head. I care to understand very deeply. I am a scientist of spiritual > thought, and then I guess I introduce those ideas here, and weird out the > residents! Sorry! > > I want anyone who read this far to know, that I am very loving and > compassionate. I do not judge any post. I wish I had the energy to answer > them all. I don't. My meds keep me rather de-energized. My memory of life > before them was sheer horror (when I posted my pain often here). I hope to > one day get off them, have energy, and not be in horror. > > So post, talk, and don't feel that you have to make things seem this way or > that. Make astrology yours. Use it your way. My intellectualizing is just > one way of seeing things. I would rather see others happy, than see them sad > because of having to conform to mine or another way of thinking. For we are > made differently, and cannot change that. I want my freedom to be me, and > respect your right to be you. > > Roik > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 On Wednesday, December 31, 2003, at 01:45 PM, arunuthayan wrote: > Dear Roik, > > The human astrologer too is always caught up in the "doership" > syndrome. They forget that they too are instruments in the hands of > the Lord/Nature. If planets make someone to seek (or rather indicate > someone seeking) help from an astrologer to remedy their situation, > how can the astrologer, who knows and interprets it, think that > whatever he/she says to the client is not predestined. What value are > they really adding to the course of nature? Or, are they imagining > that they are not within its grip, somehow, due to their > imagined "knowership". ( The word "knowership" just popped into my > head, I also realize that some people may hear it as "no worship".) > > If these astrologers don't delude themselves, they would all end up > like you. > > Loving regards, > Arun > > "Anatovai Vedah" > I like this post very much. I feel very strongly that yielding to knowing is true living, and I appreciate your reinforcement. Focusing on the concept of reinforcement, I'd like to indulge in a related issue that is personally applicable here: The challenge is in possessing a body that does not respond to knowing the way a more perfect being would. All of us face this. Whether we like it or not, we train the body each day. It either learns to respond to insight, or to shy away from acting on insight. The action does not have to be dramatic (or even externally noticeable) to condition positive response (growth). This is how knowing becomes doing. Ideally, this is a slow, natural, and consistent progression. The struggle therefore is learning proportional response to spiritual insight. I do not use a hammer to swat a fly. I do not use a feather to block the wind. But which spiritual insight requires which type of response? This is a different skill to learn and I am an imperfect (reluctant?) student. Knowledge does not authorize the insightful one to perform any action they wish. The ego enjoys action for its addictive reinforcement power. People play with action to learn basic punishment and reward dynamics. That's fundamental. HOWEVER, while the spiritual seeker may be endowed with much more consequential knowledge, he is often left longing for some type of reinforcement. His knowledge may or may not become doing, and doing may or may not reward the doer. His action is a matter of faith. As a prophet once said: to whom much is given, much will be demanded. If you have faith in your insight, your task is to demonstrate a faithful response to it. Unfortunately, the gifts of insight do not seem bestowed on the basis of one's "doing" competence. And therein lies the dilemma. Does one ignore a revelation when one cannot see what action/thought/speech should follow? Should one accept such a revelation but do nothing? Or does one do *something* and thereby validate an insight? Lastly, how does the insightful one discern the role that insightfulness is to play in his or her own life? Interestingly enough, this can only be realized in the doing that follows. It is a paradox few take to heart. So, finally...Regarding the process of receiving insight...when should my ego-active influence be a feather, and when should it be a hammer (toward self, other, or environment)? It is not a simple ethical matter because I am dealing with unverifiable stuff. And this is only the first question. The real question is the one that follows. "What type of reinforcement should I aim for?" Do I seek internal validation, external validation -- or does pursuing the reward-free outcome teach a more spiritual response? Perhaps the insightful one's entire role is to be a matter of faith. This is a difficult path, and one that few would be eager to walk. I have my views on these matters. I'd be interested to hear others' (if anyone got through this post). Thanks for your time, MF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2004 Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 On Wednesday, December 31, 2003, at 01:45 PM, arunuthayan wrote: > Dear Roik, > > The human astrologer too is always caught up in the "doership" > syndrome. They forget that they too are instruments in the hands of > the Lord/Nature. If planets make someone to seek (or rather indicate > someone seeking) help from an astrologer to remedy their situation, > how can the astrologer, who knows and interprets it, think that > whatever he/she says to the client is not predestined. What value are > they really adding to the course of nature? Or, are they imagining > that they are not within its grip, somehow, due to their > imagined "knowership". ( The word "knowership" just popped into my > head, I also realize that some people may hear it as "no worship".) > > If these astrologers don't delude themselves, they would all end up > like you. > > Loving regards, > Arun > > "Anatovai Vedah" > I like this post very much. I feel very strongly that yielding to knowing is true living, and I appreciate your reinforcement. Focusing on the concept of reinforcement, I'd like to indulge in a related issue that is personally applicable here: The challenge is in possessing a body that does not respond to knowing the way a more perfect being would. All of us face this. Whether we like it or not, we train the body each day. It either learns to respond to insight, or to shy away from acting on insight. The action does not have to be dramatic (or even externally noticeable) to condition positive response (growth). This is how knowing becomes doing. Ideally, this is a slow, natural, and consistent progression. The struggle therefore is learning proportional response to spiritual insight. I do not use a hammer to swat a fly. I do not use a feather to block the wind. But which spiritual insight requires which type of response? This is a different skill to learn and I am an imperfect (reluctant?) student. Knowledge does not authorize the insightful one to perform any action they wish. The ego enjoys action for its addictive reinforcement power. People play with action to learn basic punishment and reward dynamics. That's fundamental. HOWEVER, while the spiritual seeker may be endowed with much more consequential knowledge, he is often left longing for some type of reinforcement. His knowledge may or may not become doing, and doing may or may not reward the doer. His action is a matter of faith. As a prophet once said: to whom much is given, much will be demanded. If you have faith in your insight, your task is to demonstrate a faithful response to it. Unfortunately, the gifts of insight do not seem bestowed on the basis of one's "doing" competence. And therein lies the dilemma. Does one ignore a revelation when one cannot see what action/thought/speech should follow? Should one accept such a revelation but do nothing? Or does one do *something* and thereby validate an insight? Lastly, how does the insightful one discern the role that insightfulness is to play in his or her own life? Interestingly enough, this can only be realized in the doing that follows. It is a paradox few take to heart. So, finally...Regarding the process of receiving insight...when should my ego-active influence be a feather, and when should it be a hammer (toward self, other, or environment)? It is not a simple ethical matter because I am dealing with unverifiable stuff. And this is only the first question. The real question is the one that follows. "What type of reinforcement should I aim for?" Do I seek internal validation, external validation -- or does pursuing the reward-free outcome teach a more spiritual response? Perhaps the insightful one's entire role is to be a matter of faith. This is a difficult path, and one that few would be eager to walk. I have my views on these matters. I'd be interested to hear others' (if anyone got through this post). Thanks for your time, MF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Dear Matt, "Knowledge" starts out pretty cloudy for all of us. As it is cloudy, and the Truth being mixed with Untruth (Sath and Asath), we all get mislead or seemed to misled. But, then the world around us makes sure that enough life experiences are in store for us to learn our lessons. Regarding "doing" competence - our perception of our actions too are as limited as our "Knowledge" of the Self. Let me stop here and give others too an opportunity to voice their views. Loving regards, Arun "Anantovai Vedah" > > I like this post very much. I feel very strongly that yielding to > knowing is true living, and I appreciate your reinforcement. > > Focusing on the concept of reinforcement, I'd like to indulge in a > related issue that is personally applicable here: > > The challenge is in possessing a body that does not respond to knowing > the way a more perfect being would. All of us face this. Whether we > like it or not, we train the body each day. It either learns to > respond to insight, or to shy away from acting on insight. The action > does not have to be dramatic (or even externally noticeable) to > condition positive response (growth). This is how knowing becomes > doing. Ideally, this is a slow, natural, and consistent progression. > > The struggle therefore is learning proportional response to spiritual > insight. I do not use a hammer to swat a fly. I do not use a feather > to block the wind. But which spiritual insight requires which type of > response? This is a different skill to learn and I am an imperfect > (reluctant?) student. Knowledge does not authorize the insightful one > to perform any action they wish. > > The ego enjoys action for its addictive reinforcement power. People > play with action to learn basic punishment and reward dynamics. That's > fundamental. HOWEVER, while the spiritual seeker may be endowed with > much more consequential knowledge, he is often left longing for some > type of reinforcement. His knowledge may or may not become doing, and > doing may or may not reward the doer. His action is a matter of faith. > As a prophet once said: to whom much is given, much will be demanded. > If you have faith in your insight, your task is to demonstrate a > faithful response to it. > > Unfortunately, the gifts of insight do not seem bestowed on the basis > of one's "doing" competence. And therein lies the dilemma. Does one > ignore a revelation when one cannot see what action/thought/speech > should follow? Should one accept such a revelation but do nothing? Or > does one do *something* and thereby validate an insight? Lastly, how > does the insightful one discern the role that insightfulness is to play > in his or her own life? Interestingly enough, this can only be > realized in the doing that follows. It is a paradox few take to heart. > > So, finally...Regarding the process of receiving insight...when should > my ego-active influence be a feather, and when should it be a hammer > (toward self, other, or environment)? It is not a simple ethical > matter because I am dealing with unverifiable stuff. And this is only > the first question. The real question is the one that follows. "What > type of reinforcement should I aim for?" Do I seek internal > validation, external validation -- or does pursuing the reward-free > outcome teach a more spiritual response? Perhaps the insightful one's > entire role is to be a matter of faith. This is a difficult path, and > one that few would be eager to walk. > > > I have my views on these matters. I'd be interested to hear others' > (if anyone got through this post). > > > Thanks for your time, > MF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 On Wednesday, December 31, 2003, at 01:45 PM, arunuthayan wrote: > Dear Roik, > > The human astrologer too is always caught up in the "doership" > syndrome. They forget that they too are instruments in the hands of > the Lord/Nature. If planets make someone to seek (or rather indicate > someone seeking) help from an astrologer to remedy their situation, > how can the astrologer, who knows and interprets it, think that > whatever he/she says to the client is not predestined. What value are > they really adding to the course of nature? Or, are they imagining > that they are not within its grip, somehow, due to their > imagined "knowership". ( The word "knowership" just popped into my > head, I also realize that some people may hear it as "no worship".) > > If these astrologers don't delude themselves, they would all end up > like you. > > Loving regards, > Arun > > "Anatovai Vedah" > I like this post very much. I feel very strongly that yielding to knowing is true living, and I appreciate your reinforcement. Focusing on the concept of reinforcement, I'd like to indulge in a related issue that is personally applicable here: The challenge is in possessing a body that does not respond to knowing the way a more perfect being would. All of us face this. Whether we like it or not, we train the body each day. It either learns to respond to insight, or to shy away from acting on insight. The action does not have to be dramatic (or even externally noticeable) to condition positive response (growth). This is how knowing becomes doing. Ideally, this is a slow, natural, and consistent progression. The struggle therefore is learning proportional response to spiritual insight. I do not use a hammer to swat a fly. I do not use a feather to block the wind. But which spiritual insight requires which type of response? This is a different skill to learn and I am an imperfect (reluctant?) student. Knowledge does not authorize the insightful one to perform any action they wish. The ego enjoys action for its addictive reinforcement power. People play with action to learn basic punishment and reward dynamics. That's fundamental. HOWEVER, while the spiritual seeker may be endowed with much more consequential knowledge, he is often left longing for some type of reinforcement. His knowledge may or may not become doing, and doing may or may not reward the doer. His action is a matter of faith. As a prophet once said: to whom much is given, much will be demanded. If you have faith in your insight, your task is to demonstrate a faithful response to it. Unfortunately, the gifts of insight do not seem bestowed on the basis of one's "doing" competence. And therein lies the dilemma. Does one ignore a revelation when one cannot see what action/thought/speech should follow? Should one accept such a revelation but do nothing? Or does one do *something* and thereby validate an insight? Lastly, how does the insightful one discern the role that insightfulness is to play in his or her own life? Interestingly enough, this can only be realized in the doing that follows. It is a paradox few take to heart. So, finally...Regarding the process of receiving insight...when should my ego-active influence be a feather, and when should it be a hammer (toward self, other, or environment)? It is not a simple ethical matter because I am dealing with unverifiable stuff. And this is only the first question. The real question is the one that follows. "What type of reinforcement should I aim for?" Do I seek internal validation, external validation -- or does pursuing the reward-free outcome teach a more spiritual response? Perhaps the insightful one's entire role is to be a matter of faith. This is a difficult path, and one that few would be eager to walk. I have my views on these matters. I'd be interested to hear others' (if anyone got through this post). Thanks for your time, MF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Some thoughts on a good evening, > You wrote: > Unfortunately, the gifts of insight do not seem > bestowed on the basis > of one's "doing" competence. And therein lies the > dilemma. Does one > ignore a revelation when one cannot see what > action/thought/speech > should follow? Should one accept such a revelation > but do nothing? Or > does one do *something* and thereby validate an > insight? Lastly, how > does the insightful one discern the role that > insightfulness is to play > in his or her own life? Interestingly enough, this > can only be > realized in the doing that follows. It is a paradox > few take to heart. if that which comes to mind is a true revelation then all these questions do not arise. And if you have a revelation then you must be competent enough to have it and act on it, other wise how could you have a revelation in the first place. Revelations are glimpses of the self revealed to the purer mind. They feel like instant flashes of knowledge communicated by the inner Guru. If in response action is needed, it will happen spontaneously without any premeditation. This is true inspired action carried out thru the instrument of your body. I personally found, that when I didn't act according to my inner voice, I usually got myself into trouble. When I realized this interesting fact, I wanted to hear the voice more clearly. Because if there is the thing called insight or revelation to guide me, then I don't have to worry about anything anymore. My guide can take over, what a relief. > And this is only > the first question. The real question is the one > that follows. "What > type of reinforcement should I aim for?" Do I seek > internal > validation, external validation -- or does pursuing > the reward-free > outcome teach a more spiritual response? Perhaps > the insightful one's > entire role is to be a matter of faith. This is a > difficult path, and > one that few would be eager to walk. > Its not a matter of faith its a matter or knwowing. You know, because you hear the voice and you experience the difference in your life when you start to listen to it.. When you are starting to live with truth, you can bodily feel it and that is such bliss that you will want it with you all the time. Most people find the idea of letting go of the ego very disturbing. This is sad and silly too. The ego is made up of vasanas (mental tendencies) that clowd our perception. Ego made up of the mental residues of our accumulated karmas of countless lives is that which keeps us in bondage. Keeps us from happiness from our true selves. When ego gets weakened by spiritual practices, which can be a tough psychological process, mind becomes purer, sattvic, and is then able to act like a mirror and reflect the highest truth, the Self. > I have my views on these matters. I'd be interested > to hear others' > (if anyone got through this post). Sorry, English is not my mother tongue. Sincerely, Chris > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat > Sat > : > gjlist- > > > > Links > > > gjlist/ > > > gjlist > > Your > > > Find out what made the Top Searches of 2003 http://search./top2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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