Guest guest Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 I agree with your good points about responsibility and karma. Indeed there are different grades of karma that range from alterable with a little effort to ironclad and resistant even to huge effort. There are a few statements you make that are arguable. For example: << However if I were to drop a bomb on your home killing your family over fictitious reasons I would qualify to most folks as brutal & misguided.>> if your statement was true you would have a case. However what my argument was/is, that, the facts may be more complicated. Let's take a bomb on a home in Iraq: As Americans we assume that our military camps are largely kept separate from civilian habitations. We generally do not use our churches, schools and hospitals as ammo dumps, fortresses and military command centers. We dress our soldiers in uniforms to distinguish them from civilians. And as far as I know we do not purposely use our own citizens, women and children as human shields. Nor do we purposely blow up our own people so that we can then tape it for Al jezeera and blame it on the "evil" Americans; nor do we make tapes of beheadings of innocents who happen to be civilians holding a job in a foreign country. If we are talking equivalency, then we would have to continually print inflammatory anti-Arab headlines, have wild eyed mobs in our street burning Middle Eastern flags, cursing and waving fists; ban or better yet, bomb Mosques in the USA, capture random foreigners, make demands and then behead them on TV… You also say that the reasons for dropping the bombs were "fictitious." That remains to be established, unless you know something I missed in the news—until such a time, we simply can't be sure. And last but not least, just because many Europeans and a few others are against the war with Iraq, does not mean that they are not thrilled that we are fighting "everyones's" war and footing the bill for it too. Of course our European friends conceal their true motives for not participating (mainly cowardice and being cheap) and instead, claim to be oh-so-noble and highminded, just brimming with love and compassion for the poor Iraqis. I find this hypocrisy hard to swallow coming from Europeans who gave us two world wars and caused the biggest carnage in world history; slaughtering 30 million soldiers in various battlefields, burning hundreds of cities and eliminating well over 140 million of their own citizens during various Lenin/Stalin/Hitler/Mao purges. And that's in the last century alone. It's all too convenient to pontificate from this high and mighty perch and act all snotty and superior looking down at us gruff unsophisticated yankees. sure thing, we are in the gutter slugging it out with a bunch of emotionally and ideologically twisted Middle easterners who without batting an eye can toss their own daughter, wife or children into the firing line or make them run across a minefield if it served their purpose. Tsk, tsk, tsk, how coarse of us… But in spite of proclamations by the European bureaucrats, we just might be fighting in this gutter not because we want to, but because we have to. We impose lots of rules and restrictions on our soldiers, make them fight with one arm tied behind their back, and allow our "protesters" to scream for the other arm to be tied. We even deny our soldiers the right to shoot back when fired upon from a mosque…just watch how our own media is jumping with glee on the marine who in the heat of battle shot a wounded Iraqi in Fellujah. What the media is not jumpin on is the gutted dead woman with her abdomen stuffed with explosives and booby-trapped to blow up when moved. What they don't report is how many of the terrorists with their last breath when dying still pull a granade pin when they see our guys approaching…and the anti-war British/Iraqi Hassan woman who was just butchered is also not worthy of news. If this business of terrorism is merely the act of a few deluded fanatics and police action is the right response, then we are way too excessive by being in Iraq. But if these terrorists are actually the frontlines of another Islamic jihad against the infidels, then our response is very mild and dangerously reluctant. The jury is still out on that one. I shudder at the thought that we continue giving signs of restraint and weakness until we see a mushroom clouds over our cities and then let loose our arsenal… It's been done a few decades ago and we are perfectly capable of destructive psychosis, only this time we have the tools to destroy all. I hope that Iraq turn out to be a "stich in time" and as such in the long run will have served the greater good. Sorry for the long-winded response. I have seen that in most news reports by the BBC and the major media, politics takes a front seat and this point of view is under-represented. Back to the karma and dharma. This war and this period is not that different from what we have seen throughout history as an ongoing human condition that alternates between times of prosperity, to times of hardship, to times of brutality and then back to times of prosperity. Just because it is our turn to engage in some of this, does not make it any different. The world is just being itself. As to personal responsibility and our idividual duty? Nothing has changed. Jola In a message dated 11/14/04 11:32:26 AM, Aikido 108 writes: On Nov 11, 2004, at 1:46 PM, Aikido108 wrote: > Says who? Where is the proof? Can there even be proof? That is merely > an opinion > of yours. For the same money, I couldn't say that the Bush regime is > NOT > corrupt and brutal. The simpe fact is, we don't really know. That's > what I suggest > we try to remember. You are correct that this is my opinion. It is drawn on the evidence available to the public, my life experiences and my intuition. That is all I have to go on. I am not claiming that there is an absolute truth to anything. I am not arguing that Bush might not be cashing in on some collective karmic debt for the people of Iraq. I am also not making the case that we are not instruments of higher forces and laws. However if I were to drop a bomb on your home killing your family over fictitious reasons I would qualify to most folks as brutal & misguided. I would also be the one bearing the karmic debt for that action whether or not I was inclined to do so by my past karmas or the karmas of my community/nation/world. Your argument seeks to eliminate personal responsibility using the law of karma, yet the law of karma effects us each individually based on our actions as well as others. Karma is also not as deterministic as you describe. There are different levels of entrenchment in our past Karmas so to speak. Some results are fixed and unchangeable, some can be overcome with great adversity, some with little and some areas are a relatively clean slate. If you are to ignore this you are also shooting down the possibility that we can grow or change or make use of remedies. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <sentto-490438-20099-1100447135-Aikido108=aol.com Received: from rly-xk01.mx.aol.com (rly-xk01.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.38]) by air-xk04.mail.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILINXK42-57041977dd41b9; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:46:47 -0500 Received: from n8a.bulk.scd. (n8a.bulk.scd. [66.94.237.42]) by rly-xk01.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXK12-57041977dd41b9; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:46:29 -0500 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n8.bulk.scd. with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2004 15:45:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.29] by mailer3.bulk.scd. with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2004 15:45:35 -0000 X--Newman-Property: groups-email Received: (qmail 22899 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2004 15:45:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd. with QMQP; 14 Nov 2004 15:45:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bulk.scd.) (66.94.237.16) by mta2.grp.scd. with SMTP; 14 Nov 2004 15:45:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n11.bulk.scd. with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2004 15:45:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by mailer7.bulk.scd. with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2004 15:45:32 -0000 X-Sender: todd X-Apparently-valist Received: (qmail 52950 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2004 16:11:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd. with QMQP; 12 Nov 2004 16:11:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc11.comcast.net) (204.127.202.55) by mta2.grp.scd. with SMTP; 12 Nov 2004 16:10:59 -0000 Received: from [192.168.254.8] (c-24-12-254-81.client.comcast.net[24.12.254.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004111215201301100n9n80e>; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:20:13 +0000 In-<8e.19d14bf9.2ec51b84 References: <8e.19d14bf9.2ec51b84 Message-Id: <58E3D1F6-34BE-11D9-9DCC-000393823F90 valist X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 204.127.202.55 Marek <todd X--Profile: affe232001 X-eGroups-Approved-By: das_goravani <> via web; 14 Nov 2004 15:45:30 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list valist; contact valist-owner Delivered-mailing list valist Precedence: bulk List-Un: <valist> Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:20:12 -0600 Re: Bush-Dharmas and Karmas valist Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AOL-IP: 66.94.237.42 X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:0:0: X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Jola- I wanted to say I've found this interaction to be quite thought provoking, challenging and enjoyable:-) With that said, I am not making, nor have I made, the claim that everyone in Iraq is a lovable peacnik or subscribing to the standards of non-violence that I think are important. Nor would I claim that Europeans are somehow standing on a higher ground than we Americans. I spoke strongly, perhaps giving the impression of knee jerk reaction. The feeling is actually disillusionment. I am not comparing my government to any other idealized states on the planet I am just upset that our country is perpetuating a tired cycle. I feel sympathy for the people in Iraq who are suffering at the hands of US soldiers and terrorist and insurgent alike. I follow politics closely from many sides including those I strongly disagree with. It is my opinion that the US is making a move towards imperialism. I am not trying to convince anyone else to agree with me. > > > I agree with your good points about responsibility and karma. Indeed > there > are different grades of karma that range from alterable with a little > effort to > ironclad and resistant even to huge effort. > There are a few statements you make that are arguable. For example: > > << However if I were to drop a bomb on your home killing your family > over > fictitious reasons I would qualify to most folks as brutal & > misguided.>> > > if your statement was true you would have a case. However what my > argument > was/is, that, the facts may be more complicated. Let's take a bomb on > a home in > Iraq: As Americans we assume that our military camps are largely kept > separate > from civilian habitations. We generally do not use our churches, > schools and > hospitals as ammo dumps, fortresses and military command centers. We > dress our > soldiers in uniforms to distinguish them from civilians. And as far as > I know > we do not purposely use our own citizens, women and children as human > shields. Nor do we purposely blow up our own people so that we can > then tape it for > Al jezeera and blame it on the "evil" Americans; nor do we make tapes > of > beheadings of innocents who happen to be civilians holding a job in a > foreign > country. I > If we are talking equivalency, then we would have to continually print > inflammatory anti-Arab headlines, have wild eyed mobs in our street > burning Middle > Eastern flags, cursing and waving fists; ban or better yet, bomb > Mosques in the > USA, capture random foreigners, make demands and then behead them on > TV… > > You also say that the reasons for dropping the bombs were > "fictitious." That > remains to be established, unless you know something I missed in the > news—until such a time, we simply can't be sure. > > And last but not least, just because many Europeans and a few others > are > against the war with Iraq, does not mean that they are not thrilled > that we are > fighting "everyones's" war and footing the bill for it too. Of course > our > European friends conceal their true motives for not participating > (mainly cowardice > and being cheap) and instead, claim to be oh-so-noble and highminded, > just > brimming with love and compassion for the poor Iraqis. I find this > hypocrisy hard > to swallow coming from Europeans who gave us two world wars and caused > the > biggest carnage in world history; slaughtering 30 million soldiers in > various > battlefields, burning hundreds of cities and eliminating well over 140 > million > of their own citizens during various Lenin/Stalin/Hitler/Mao purges. > And that's > in the last century alone. > > It's all too convenient to pontificate from this high and mighty perch > and > act all snotty and superior looking down at us gruff unsophisticated > yankees. > sure thing, we are in the gutter slugging it out with a bunch of > emotionally and > ideologically twisted Middle easterners who without batting an eye can > toss > their own daughter, wife or children into the firing line or make them > run > across a minefield if it served their purpose. Tsk, tsk, tsk, how > coarse of us… > > But in spite of proclamations by the European bureaucrats, we just > might be > fighting in this gutter not because we want to, but because we have > to. We > impose lots of rules and restrictions on our soldiers, make them fight > with one > arm tied behind their back, and allow our "protesters" to scream for > the other > arm to be tied. We even deny our soldiers the right to shoot back when > fired > upon from a mosque…just watch how our own media is jumping with glee > on the > marine who in the heat of battle shot a wounded Iraqi in Fellujah. > What the > media is not jumpin on is the gutted dead woman with her abdomen > stuffed with > explosives and booby-trapped to blow up when moved. What they don't > report is how > many of the terrorists with their last breath when dying still pull a > granade > pin when they see our guys approaching…and the anti-war British/Iraqi > Hassan > woman who was just butchered is also not worthy of news. > > If this business of terrorism is merely the act of a few deluded > fanatics and > police action is the right response, then we are way too excessive by > being > in Iraq. But if these terrorists are actually the frontlines of > another Islamic > jihad against the infidels, then our response is very mild and > dangerously > reluctant. The jury is still out on that one. > > I shudder at the thought that we continue giving signs of restraint > and > weakness until we see a mushroom clouds over our cities and then let > loose our > arsenal… It's been done a few decades ago and we are perfectly capable > of > destructive psychosis, only this time we have the tools to destroy > all. I hope that > Iraq turn out to be a "stich in time" and as such in the long run will > have > served the greater good. > > Sorry for the long-winded response. I have seen that in most news > reports by > the BBC and the major media, politics takes a front seat and this > point of > view is under-represented. > > Back to the karma and dharma. This war and this period is not that > different > from what we have seen throughout history as an ongoing human > condition that > alternates between times of prosperity, to times of hardship, to times > of > brutality and then back to times of prosperity. Just because it is our > turn to > engage in some of this, does not make it any different. The world is > just being > itself. As to personal responsibility and our idividual duty? Nothing > has > changed. > Jola > > > In a message dated 11/14/04 11:32:26 AM, Aikido 108 writes: > > On Nov 11, 2004, at 1:46 PM, Aikido108 wrote: > >> Says who? Where is the proof? Can there even be proof? That is merely >> an opinion >> of yours. For the same money, I couldn't say that the Bush regime is >> NOT >> corrupt and brutal. The simpe fact is, we don't really know. That's >> what I suggest >> we try to remember. > > You are correct that this is my opinion. It is drawn on the evidence > available to the public, my life experiences and my intuition. That is > all I have to go on. I am not claiming that there is an absolute truth > to anything. > > I am not arguing that Bush might not be cashing in on some collective > karmic debt for the people of Iraq. I am also not making the case that > we are not instruments of higher forces and laws. However if I were to > drop a bomb on your home killing your family over fictitious reasons I > would qualify to most folks as brutal & misguided. I would also be the > one bearing the karmic debt for that action whether or not I was > inclined to do so by my past karmas or the karmas of my > community/nation/world. > > Your argument seeks to eliminate personal responsibility using the law > of karma, yet the law of karma effects us each individually based on > our actions as well as others. > > Karma is also not as deterministic as you describe. There are > different levels of entrenchment in our past Karmas so to speak. Some > results are fixed and unchangeable, some can be overcome with great > adversity, some with little and some areas are a relatively clean > slate. > > If you are to ignore this you are also shooting down the possibility > that we can grow or change or make use of remedies. > > > Links > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: > <sentto-490438-20099-1100447135- > Aikido108=aol.com > Received: from rly-xk01.mx.aol.com (rly-xk01.mail.aol.com > [172.20.83.38]) by > air-xk04.mail.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id > MAILINXK42-57041977dd41b9; Sun, > 14 Nov 2004 10:46:47 -0500 > Received: from n8a.bulk.scd. (n8a.bulk.scd. > [66.94.237.42]) by rly-xk01.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id > MAILRELAYINXK12-57041977dd41b9; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:46:29 -0500 > Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n8.bulk.scd. with NNFMP; 14 > Nov 2004 > 15:45:35 -0000 > Received: from [66.218.66.29] by mailer3.bulk.scd. with > NNFMP; 14 > Nov 2004 15:45:35 -0000 > X--Newman-Property: groups-email > Received: (qmail 22899 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2004 15:45:34 > -0000 > Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) > by m23.grp.scd. with QMQP; 14 Nov 2004 15:45:34 -0000 > Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bulk.scd.) (66.94.237.16) > by mta2.grp.scd. with SMTP; 14 Nov 2004 15:45:34 -0000 > Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n11.bulk.scd. with NNFMP; 14 > Nov > 2004 15:45:32 -0000 > Received: from [66.218.66.142] by mailer7.bulk.scd. with > NNFMP; 14 > Nov 2004 15:45:32 -0000 > X-Sender: todd > X-Apparently-valist > Received: (qmail 52950 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2004 16:11:00 > -0000 > Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) > by m23.grp.scd. with QMQP; 12 Nov 2004 16:11:00 -0000 > Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc11.comcast.net) (204.127.202.55) > by mta2.grp.scd. with SMTP; 12 Nov 2004 16:10:59 -0000 > Received: from [192.168.254.8] > (c-24-12-254-81.client.comcast.net[24.12.254.81]) > by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP > id <2004111215201301100n9n80e>; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:20:13 > +0000 > In-<8e.19d14bf9.2ec51b84 > References: <8e.19d14bf9.2ec51b84 > Message-Id: <58E3D1F6-34BE-11D9-9DCC-000393823F90 > valist > X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) > X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 204.127.202.55 Marek <todd > X--Profile: affe232001 > X-eGroups-Approved-By: das_goravani <> via web; 14 Nov > 2004 > 15:45:30 -0000 > X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.16 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list valist; contact > valist-owner > Delivered-mailing list valist > Precedence: bulk > List-Un: <valist> > Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:20:12 -0600 > Re: Bush-Dharmas and Karmas > valist > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-AOL-IP: 66.94.237.42 > X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:0:0: > X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 > >>> > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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