Spritual debate

[Guest guest]

Hello Rick and the list members,

 

Hare Krishna.

 

Enjoy yourself and grow up with it, MAN. As Rick wrote ;

 

" How come you're not doing it to me? I said the same thing myself. I

agreed with him.

Look, grow up. There are people in this world who either never accepted God,

or have given it up. Get over it man! This is crazy boring watching you

bash somebody over and over that you know the truth and they don't. It's

really childish."

 

 

Here is Verse 15 - Chapter 7 from the Bhagavat Gita.

..

 

"Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, who are lowest among mankind,

whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic

nature of demons do not surrender unto Me."

 

It is said in Bhagavad-gita that simply by surrendering oneself unto the

lotus feet of the Supreme Personality Krsna one can surmount the stringent

laws of material nature. At this point a question arises: How is it that

educated philosophers, scientists, businessmen, administrators and all the

leaders of ordinary men do not surrender to the lotus feet of Sri Krsna, the

all-powerful Personality of Godhead? Mukti, or liberation from the laws of

material nature, is sought by the leaders of mankind in different ways and

with great plans and perseverance for a great many years and births. But if

that liberation is possible by simply surrendering unto the lotus feet of

the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then why don’t these intelligent and

hard-working leaders adopt this simple method?

 

The Gita answers this question very frankly. Those really learned leaders of

society like Brahma, Siva, Kapila, the Kumaras, Manu, Vyasa, Devala, Asita,

Janaka, Prahlada, Bali, and later on Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, Sri

Caitanya and many others—who are faithful philosophers, politicians,

educators, scientists, etc.—surrender to the lotus feet of the Supreme

Person, the all-powerful authority. Those who are not actually philosophers,

scientists, educators, administrators, etc., but who pose themselves as such

for material gain, do not accept the plan or path of the Supreme Lord. They

have no idea of God; they simply manufacture their own worldly plans and

consequently complicate the problems of material existence in their vain

attempts to solve them. Because material energy (nature) is so powerful, it

can resist the unauthorized plans of the atheists and baffle the knowledge

of "planning commissions."

 

The atheistic planmakers are described herein by the word duskrtinah, or

"miscreants." Krti means one who has performed meritorious work. The atheist

planmaker is sometimes very intelligent and meritorious also, because any

gigantic plan, good or bad, must take intelligence to execute. But because

the atheist’s brain is improperly utilized in opposing the plan of the

Supreme Lord, the atheistic planmaker is called duskrti. which indicates

that his intelligence and efforts are misdirected.

 

In the Gita it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under

the direction of the Supreme Lord. It has no independent authority. It works

as the shadow moves, in accordance with the movements of the object. But

still material energy is very powerful, and the atheist, due to his godless

temperament, cannot know how it works; nor can he know the plan of the

Supreme Lord. Under illusion and the modes of passion and ignorance, all his

plans are baffled, as in the case of Hiranyakasipu and Ravana, whose plans

were smashed to dust although they were both materially learned as

scientists, philosophers, administrators and educators. These duskrtinas, or

miscreants, are of four different patterns, as outlined below.

 

(1) The mudhas are those who are grossly foolish, like hardworking beasts of

burden. They want to enjoy the fruits of their labor by themselves, and so

do not want to part with them for the Supreme. The typical example of the

beast of burden is the ass. This humble beast is made to work very hard by

his master. The ass does not really know for whom he works so hard day and

night. He remains satisfied by filling his stomach with a bundle of grass,

sleeping for a while under fear of being beaten by his master, and

satisfying his sex appetite at the risk of being repeatedly kicked by the

opposite party. The ass sings poetry and philosophy sometimes, but this

braying sound only disturbs others. This is the position of the foolish

fruitive worker who does not know for whom he should work. He does not know

that karma (action) is meant for yajna (sacrifice).

 

Most often, those who work very hard day and night to clear the burden of

self-created duties say that they have no time to hear of the immortality of

the living being. To such mudhas, material gains, which are destructible,

are life’s all in all—despite the fact that the mudhas enjoy only a very

small fraction of the fruit of labor. Sometimes they spend sleepless days

and nights for fruitive gain, and although they may have ulcers or

indigestion, they are satisfied with practically no food; they are simply

absorbed in working hard day and night for the benefit of illusory masters.

Ignorant of their real master, the foolish workers waste their valuable time

serving mammon. Unfortunately, they never surrender to the supreme master of

all masters, nor do they take time to hear of Him from the proper sources.

The swine who eat the night soil do not care to accept sweetmeats made of

sugar and ghee. Similarly, the foolish worker will untiringly continue to

hear of the sense-enjoyable tidings of the flickering mundane world, but

will have very little time to hear about the eternal living force that moves

the material world.

 

(2) Another class of duskrti, or miscreant, is called the naradhama, or the

lowest of mankind. Nara means human being, and adhama means the lowest. Out

of the 8,400,000 different species of living beings, there are 400,000 human

species. Out of these there are numerous lower forms of human life that are

mostly uncivilized. The civilized human beings are those who have regulative

principles of social, political and religious life. Those who are socially

and politically developed but who have no religious principles must be

considered naradhamas. Nor is religion without God religion, because the

purpose of following religious principles is to know the Supreme Truth and

man’s relation with Him. In the Gita the Personality of Godhead clearly

states that there is no authority above Him and that He is the Supreme

Truth. The civilized form of human life is meant for man’s reviving the lost

consciousness of his eternal relation with the Supreme Truth, the

Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna, who is all-powerful. Whoever loses this

chance is classified as a naradhama. We get information from revealed

scriptures that when the baby is in the mother’s womb (an extremely

uncomfortable situation) he prays to God for deliverance and promises to

worship Him alone as soon as he gets out. To pray to God when he is in

difficulty is a natural instinct in every living being because he is

eternally related with God. But after his deliverance, the child forgets the

difficulties of birth and forgets his deliverer also, being influenced by

maya, the illusory energy.

 

It is the duty of the guardians of children to revive the divine

consciousness dormant in them. The ten processes of reformatory ceremonies,

as enjoined in the Manu-smrti. which is the guide to religious principles,

are meant for reviving God consciousness in the system of varnasrama.

However, no process is strictly followed now in any part of the world, and

therefore 99.9 percent of the population is naradhama.

 

When the whole population becomes naradhama. naturally all their so-called

education is made null and void by the all-powerful energy of physical

nature. According to the standard of the Gita, a learned man is he who sees

on equal terms the learned brahmana. the dog. the cow, the elephant and the

dog-eater. That is the vision of a true devotee. Sri Nityananda Prabhu, who

is the incarnation of Godhead as divine master, delivered the typical

naradhamas. the brothers Jagai and Madhai, and showed how the mercy of a

real devotee is bestowed upon the lowest of mankind. So the naradhama who is

condemned by the Personality of Godhead can again revive his spiritual

consciousness only by the mercy of a devotee.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in propagating the bhagavata-dharma, or activities

of the devotees, has recommended that people submissively hear the message

of the Personality of Godhead. The essence of this message is Bhagavad-gita.

The lowest amongst human beings can be delivered by this submissive hearing

process only, but unfortunately they even refuse to give an aural reception

to these messages, and what to speak of surrendering to the will of the

Supreme Lord? Naradhamas, or the lowest of mankind, will fully neglect the

prime duty of the human being.

 

(3) The next class of duskrti is called mayayapahrta-jnanah, or those

persons whose erudite knowledge has been nullified by the influence of

illusory material energy. They are mostly very learned fellows—great

philosophers, poets, literati, scientists, etc.—but the illusory energy

misguides them, and therefore they disobey the Supreme Lord.

 

There are a great number of mayayapahrta-jnanah at the present moment, even

amongst the scholars of the Bhagavad-gita. In the Gita, in plain and simple

language, it is stated that Sri Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

There is none equal to or greater than Him. He is mentioned as the father of

Brahma, the original father of all human beings. In fact, Sri Krsna is said

to be not only the father of Brahma but also the father of all species of

life. He is the root of the impersonal Brahman and Paramatma; the Supersoul

in every entity is His plenary portion. He is the fountainhead of

everything, and everyone is advised to surrender unto His lotus feet.

Despite all these clear statements, the mayayapahrta-jnanah deride the

personality of the Supreme Lord and consider Him merely another human being.

They do not know that the blessed form of human life is designed after the

eternal and transcendental feature of the Supreme Lord.

 

All the unauthorized interpretations of the Gita by the class of

mayayapahrta-jnanah, outside the purview of the parampara system, are so

many stumbling blocks on the path of spiritual understanding. The deluded

interpreters do not surrender unto the lotus feet of Sri Krsna, nor do they

teach others to follow this principle.

 

(4) The last class of duskrti is called asuram bhavam asritah, or those of

demonic principles. This class is openly atheistic. Some of them argue that

the Supreme Lord can never descend upon this material world, but they are

unable to give any tangible reasons as to why not. There are others who make

Him subordinate to the impersonal feature, although the opposite is declared

in the Gita. Envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the atheist will

present a number of illicit incarnations manufactured in the factory of his

brain. Such persons, whose very principle of life is to decry the

Personality of Godhead, cannot surrender unto the lotus feet of Sri Krsna.

 

Sri Yamunacarya Albandaru of South India said, "O my Lord! You are

unknowable to persons involved with atheistic principles, despite Your

uncommon qualities, features and activities, despite Your personality’s

being confirmed by all the revealed scriptures in the quality of goodness,

and despite Your being acknowledged by the famous authorities renowned for

their depth of knowledge in the transcendental science and situated in the

godly qualities."

 

Therefore, (1) grossly foolish persons, (2) the lowest of mankind, (3) the

deluded speculators, and (4) the professed atheists, as above mentioned,

never surrender unto the lotus feet of the Personality of Godhead in spite

of all scriptural and authoritative advice.

 

Hari BOL. OM TAT SAT.

 

With my best wishes................AMAR PURI.

 

 

 

>Das Goravani <>

>valist

>"valist" <valist>

>Re: Rahu in ninth house /Spritual debate

>Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:29:23 -0800

>

>

>

>Amar Puri,

>

>"Atheist" means "non-theo", or "not into the concept of God as a person".

>It doesn't mean that one cannot be also, simultaneously, interested in

>things like what we are, where we come from, and so on. It means that one

>doesn't think that the personalistic statements of the holy books of

>various

>religions about God are true. That's what it means. It means one doesn't

>buy

>the personalistic understanding of an all powerful God being. It does not

>mean that one has to be devoid of thinking about spiritual matters,

>metaphysics, quantum physics, quantam mechanics of the creation and so on.

>

>It doesn't even mean one has to stop meditating, or chanting for that

>matter, as these have supposed material effects simply by their sound

>vibrations.

>

>Singing with other people in a Church is "good for your spirits" and has

>nothing to do with God actually. It's just good to sing and dance with

>others in a Church, or a Disco, though the higher thinking in Churches (if

>that's what it is at some church, it isn't always, I know for sure) may

>make

>them more desireable.

>

>You are assuming that you are right, that there is this personal God named

>Krishna or Vishnu or Shiva or Whatever. You are assuming you are right.

>Then

>you are trying to convince others you are right.

>

>But you see, the Atheist in this discussion isn't trying to convince you of

>anything except he's stood his rightful ground, and you keep coming on with

>your God, your Holy Self, and your righteousness, and it's ugly because

>this

>is a free world, and Ashutosh is free to believe as he likes without your

>constant preaching. Can you not see that?

>

>Do you think you have a right to do this to him because he has your

>national

>background and skin color? How come you're not doing it to me? I said the

>same thing myself. I agreed with him.

>

>Look, grow up. There are people in this world who either never accepted

>God,

>or have given it up. Get over it man! This is crazy boring watching you

>bash somebody over and over that you know the truth and they don't. It's

>really childish.

>

>Rick

>

>Das Goravani, Pres.

>

>

>

>

>Service

>

>

>

>

>

>http://www.dancingmooninc.com

>

Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>