To Haresh, Manoj, Sunita and All List

April 29, 2006

Dear Das and all,

I believe that it is very easy to be religious, to be

orthodox. People tend to choose the easiest way around. All one has to do is to

believe whatever the scriptures say with eyes and logical thinking closed.

But, on the other hand, it is not easy to question the dogmas, the

beliefs, the rituals being blindly propogated in all cults and cultures.

In ancient world, a King was considered divine and next to God. There

were poets who eulogised their kings' life events and, more often than not,

overhyped their feats and abilities.

A king whose life was not penned down in form of verses, was naturally

lost from public memory. Ram owes his fame to Valmiki and Tulsidas. Krishna, to

Ved Vyas, Surdas and some other medieval age poets.

They were like heroes of modern age novels or movies. Their fame

depended on interesting and likeable compositions of the poetic works.

Both Ram and Krishna were mere humans, just like you and me. Today, GWB

has more powers than Krishna. He has nuclear age weapons, space travel,

technology at his disposal. Would anyone dare to call him a God? No! But if he

were to be immortalised in some epic which is read by people five hundred years

after his death, there are full chances that he will be worshipped somewhere by

some people.

Then, one would argue that Ram and Krishna were noble souls and always

did what was best for the people.

Sorry, I do not agree with that. Ram was an aryan warrior sent to the

southern India to protect the aryan missionaries who were spreading their own

culture there. A well developed culture, which was called Asura(not sur)

culture or rakshasa culture was already prevalent there. These missionaries or

sages like Agastya did just what the christian missionaries have been doing all

over the world.

Just imagine the situation if Raavan had won the war with Ram and had

killed him. Raavan was an able administrator and under his rule Lanka had

prospered. He was the sole challenge to the missionary advent from the north.

His death was the final blow which ended the native culture of south India.

Krishna was the most mischievious person of his times. Just think what

was the result of his noble acts. All able warriors of that era were killed in

the war of Mahabharat. Even his own dynasty and kingdom was destroyed. If he

were really a God or a noble soul, he would have acted to protect the world,

not to destroy it, directly or indirectly.

If Bhagvat Gita were not added to the original Mahabharat, the readers

would have had a different opinion about Krishna.

History has always been distorted by the victorious. The vanquished have

never had a say.

One should think logically and should not go blindly by whatever is

preached. The sooner one realizes the truth, the more peacefull one will be.

Regards,

Ashutosh

-

Das Goravani

VALIST

Sunday, 30 April, 2006 07:11

To Haresh, Manoj, Sunita and All List

Just to clarify a few points: I have been to India 4 times, back in the late

seventies and early 80's. I was a Hare Krishna devotee. I had a semi-blind

Hare Krishna marriage, 2 kids, and now a grandchild. I have read the

Bhagavatam, Gita, Mahabharat and Ramayana and some other Upanishads. All of

these I've read extensively, or repeatedly. I lived the strict Vaisnava

lifestyle of the Gaudiya Math/Hare Krishna temples for many years and served in

them.I have been doing Jyotish for 13 years, and during that time, I have

discoursed extensively with hundreds or thousands of souls, many of whom are

Indian. Very often the discussion covered married life, marriage, sex,

children, all those kinds of things. So when I say that Indians have to deal

with meddling from relatives, I know what I'm talking about. I've heard it

over and over and over. I didn't make that up. Also, Haresh, when you "remind

me" that "Krishna is God", well, thank you. Please realize, I bowed to Krishna

every day for many years. I have installed and worshipped his Vigraha/Murti

many times and in many places. I have extensive experience as a devotee of

Krishna, and the whole Krishna/Vaisnava religion with all it's pieces and

parts. Nobody needs to tell me who is Ram, who is Krishna, the Pandavas,

etc.But what I ask you is: Where is the archaeological evidence for any of

that? Where are the golden helmets and chariot wheels on the field of

Kurukshetra? You know, in Europe they find burial mounds that are 3 to 4

thousand years old, containing gold slippers, gold helmets, and all such things

belonging to the early kings of the various cultures there. Are these things

found in India also and thus confirm the scriptural statements. I am familiar

with Mujundaro, but that tells us little- the text there does not match

Sanskrit, which throws a wrench in the works does it not. I am open to being

enlightened here.Such fantastic statements are made in Mahabharat and

Bhagavatam, but there is no proof. I am well aware of the Vaisnava philosophy

surrounding Krishna and Radha etc etc., but I do not any longer go in for it

personally, just as I do not believe the fantastical claims of the ancient

Irish books either, which are similar. In one Roman history book, it tells of

Unicorns living in Germany, but this turned out to be a myth. Note: We have

an easy time writing off Western Ancient Religion as Myth. However, in India,

there are many many many people, and I was one of them, who fully totally

literally believed in the fantastical Hindu "scriptures" as totally true

history. I really believed this until a few years ago. Now I am being open

and honest about it.My depression was caused by the collapse of my Vaisnava

faith, happening at the same time as losing all my previous friends (because

they were ALL vaisnavas). The mother of my children won't even talk to me

because of this. Her and her friends, her husband, all Vaisnavas, consider me

to be dirt because I "lost faith".Mind you, I don't believe any longer in ANY

GOD or ANY RELIGION. It's not just Hinduism. I have become just a scientist,

and a believer in the great divine, which we don't know. Krishna is a very

fully developed metaphor in my mind. A very extensively and fully and craftily

developed metaphor, which we would expect from a India, a large, ancient, nearly

unmeddled with ancient culture on it's own huge land. I honor and respect that

as a metaphor for the divine. In this way, I've become more one with Indias

impersonalists, who do not believe in Krishna as a real person, but as a

metaphor. That's my way of seeing things now.Before this change, I was a

gung-ho all guns blaring go for it Hare Krishna Vaisnava kind of guy, and the

writings I made at those times can still be found all over the web, making me

sound like a really devoted Vaisnava. But those are all old now.I feel I have

matured, grown up. Others may see me as a heretic or blasphemer, but this is

all opinion based solely on faith.When you say "Krishna is God", you are

expressing "Faith" only, because you have not met him, have not seen him,

cannot introduce me and him to each other, etc. You are just believing the

stories in old books, and there is no archaeological evidence to back up your

beliefs. On the other hand, there is ample evidence that man evolved from a

hunter gather ape like creature into a more advanced creature. There is ample

evidence of little hunter-gatherer villages from India to Canada. There are

also dynosaurs. There are evidences of ancient small cultures, that became new

cultures. Many great cities have underneath them the ruins of older cities, and

archaeologists are finding more and more all the time.I believe those things,

because they are obvious true. An arrowhead in the hand, is worth more than

faith. It's proof.Funny, in all my study of archaeology, I have never heard

much about India. Why is that? I am really asking. Are there any finds that

prove any of theclaims of Mahabharat? I expect grand cities, grand amounts of

gold, weapons, something...and if you say "Krishna took it all with him", I

find that a little too convenient to believe.So I am open to being enlightened

here.As for woman, I have had around 50 intimite relationships, most very

short, some longer, one marriage, one ten year relationship with a married

woman who I was waiting and waiting and waiting for. Now, many of you are

shocked. This is normal for many people in the bigger cities of America. I am

not special. I have never had a venerial disease. I have never had an unwanted

child, nor been party to an abortion. Just my good luck in all these cases.But

love, real love, is hard to find. Where both partners love each other

similarly, is for me, hard to find, perhaps because I expect all of good looks,

brains, ambition, experience, worldliness, etc. Many have said I'm too

picky.But for all I've done, and how famous I am, I thought it would have come

by now, but it hasn't. Some say I should find happiness within. It sounds

nice, but my brain keeps feeling what it feels. I try many things to change

and improve myself, but I still wish I had a wife.I do not mean to say bad

things about India or it's culture, but I have been a devotee of it, and I have

lived in the heart of it I feel...in that I stayed in a strict

Temple/Math/Ashram in Navadwip West Bengal for quite some time, and served in

His (Sridhar Maharaja's) temples in San Jose and London, and was a key person

in both. Both were strictly following him. Then there was many years in

ISKCON temples, including being a president of one, for years again. My wife

and I followed strict Hindu dharma for our marriage for a number of years

before our white natures came back- but for some years we were the ideal little

white Indian couple following all the rules, running temples, giving the

classes, running the deities, paying for the temple completely, making new

devotees or bhaktas for Krishna, etc.So I do know what I'm talking about, when

it comes to Hinduism, and woman, and relationships, and sex, and children, and

business, and Jyotish.I am frustrated because I am. That's all. I am

frustrated because I do not want to be single. That's all. I want a wife. I

am lonely. I could try to bury these feelings and not mention them, but it's

my nature and nearly an occupation, nearly a profession, of mine, to make

myself public property. I've been doing it on this list for years and I don't

see a reason to stop. I have already decided that if my path brings me

ridicule or even death, then I have to welcome it, because it has brought me to

great heights that few enjoy in their human lives. I have much to be thankful

for. So I voice my feelings, rightly or wrongly, and many thank me for that.I

find in doing so, that many share their lives back with me in private, and I

have found that I am actually just like everybody else in that we all have

pain, we all have sorrows, and many have the same pains and sorrows, like

wanting a spouse, is a VERY common sorrow or desire.Many Indians have expressed

their utter frustration with their parents meddling in their marital plans, and

many have told me how unhappy they are with their arranged marriages, and

remember, I kindof had one of my own, so I understand. I have much more respect

for Hinduism than Christianity, by the way. Just to set the record straight on

that one, as per my feelings, for what they are worth to anybody.My personal

beliefs are that there is definitely something Divine, but that we don't know

what it is. There are many things we know about life, from inference mostly,

and that scriptures are reflections of what we think might be the truth or

explanation, as well as being places where great thinkers record their

realizations, which really are valueable to us all, especially at certain times

when we are hungry and needy for that kind of knowledge.Right now my personal

path is not at that point, or that's what I think. I'm at a point of working

on my own strengths. I am overcoming addictions, personal problems, facing

personal issues. It's not a time when I want to read about great persons

flying in flower airplanes to Indraloka or something like that.... Do you get

my meaning? If I'm angry, I don't want to do japa, I want to figure out what is

making me angry. So, there are different paths and needs at different times in

life perhaps. This is my supposition and I'm following it.I'm not sure I

always want to be "fixed" either. Just as a yogi might WANT to undergo

austerities for some purpose all his own, similarly, I may WANT to remain in an

uncomfortable state for some reason of my own. I may be having a battle with

part of myself. I want to do my life my way at this time. I wrote my letter

because Haresh's letter to me seemed very strange- basically recommending

marriage as a fix for my problems.I was like YEAH DUH I mean, that

IS what I want. The problem is NO WOMAN. NOT that I'm against marriage.Then

Manoj said "Hope his letter helped". I'm like WHAT?It all seemed nearly

comicle. I don't know if this makes sense to you both. Maybe we're too far

apart and too different to discuss these things.Hoping this letter clarifies

things.RickDasSincerely,Das Goravani (Richard

Vuerst-MachAeoidh)das (AT) goravani (DOT) com(Please use email to communicate with me)For

online ordering and all information see our

website:http://www.Goravani.comAstrology Software, Training Videos, Chart

Printoutsand paintings by Das Goravani2852 Willamette St

#353Eugene OR 97405

April 30, 2006

On Apr 29, 2006, at 9:55 PM, astrologerashutosh wrote:

> If Bhagvat Gita were not added to the original Mahabharat,

> the readers would have had a different opinion about Krishna.

>

Ashutosh, you may imagine that you are logical, but ?

you haven't done your homework.

ram and krishna were far more than worldly

kings or movie stars. you are speaking superficially.

there was something very very real that was happening

between krishna and arjuna in the gita.

the gita was the point of krishna, not the mahabaharta.

the gita jives with every other scripture in the world.

the core of every scripture is an experience:

light, sound, vibration, etc... pure energy in scientific language.

krishna was showing it to arjune.

the rest is camouflage.

most scriptures call the experience 'god'

but religions don't really know what god is.

religions are businesses.

they think god is a guy sitting on a cloud, etc...

and that is the problem with looking at the masters from the

outside or actually finding out what they are all about.

most of what we think of as 'scripture' is not.

it is merely a distraction.

other than a direct description of god, the experience,

all the rest is dross... history, fairy tale, superstition, myth,

abstracted beyond imagination.

don't get hung up in the superfluous.

focus on what is real.

and demand to know it for yourself.

we all deserve to know what is real, beyond this movie.

the 'war' is still going on -- between the ears of every human.

and hopefully we will all learn how to choose peace, love.

go deeper, darlin. go deeper.

love, patricia

Please support my my new

effort to end genital mutilation ...

"The Rape of Innocence :

One Woman's Story of

Female Genital Mutilation in the USA"

http://www.AesculapiusPress.com

Purchases and contributions are

sincerely appreciated!

April 30, 2006

Dear Patricia,

I was expecting such answers from some members. It

is hard not to believe what is the popular belief.

Gita was a very brief and short chapter of the original Mahabharat.

The Bhagvat Gita was added afterwards.

I do not see Krishna giving all the discourses in the middle of the

Kurukshetra with both armies waiting to cull each other.

As has been the practice in India, popular icons, gods, etc have

been used as protagonists in religious texts, having a dialogue on

philosophy or religion. Like Shiv-Parvati Samvad, Krishna-Arjun Samvad,

Shukdev-Pariskshit Samvad. Samvad means dialogue.

The dialogue pattern is seen in almost all treatises on religious

subjects, in India.

Bhagvat Gita is no doubt a great philosophical work, appreciated by

many all over the world. But, it was not a part of original Mahabharat.

Believe me, I have done a lot of homework.

Regards,

Ashutosh

-

"Patricia Robinett" <patricia

Sunday, 30 April, 2006 11:58

Re: To Haresh, Manoj, Sunita and All List

> On Apr 29, 2006, at 9:55 PM, astrologerashutosh wrote:

>

>> If Bhagvat Gita were not added to the original Mahabharat,

>> the readers would have had a different opinion about Krishna.

>>

>

> Ashutosh, you may imagine that you are logical, but ?

> you haven't done your homework.

> ram and krishna were far more than worldly

> kings or movie stars. you are speaking superficially.

> there was something very very real that was happening

> between krishna and arjuna in the gita.

> the gita was the point of krishna, not the mahabaharta.

> the gita jives with every other scripture in the world.

> the core of every scripture is an experience:

> light, sound, vibration, etc... pure energy in scientific language.

> krishna was showing it to arjune.

> the rest is camouflage.

> most scriptures call the experience 'god'

> but religions don't really know what god is.

> religions are businesses.

> they think god is a guy sitting on a cloud, etc...

> and that is the problem with looking at the masters from the

> outside or actually finding out what they are all about.

> most of what we think of as 'scripture' is not.

> it is merely a distraction.

> other than a direct description of god, the experience,

> all the rest is dross... history, fairy tale, superstition, myth,

> abstracted beyond imagination.

> don't get hung up in the superfluous.

> focus on what is real.

> and demand to know it for yourself.

> we all deserve to know what is real, beyond this movie.

> the 'war' is still going on -- between the ears of every human.

> and hopefully we will all learn how to choose peace, love.

> go deeper, darlin. go deeper.

>

> love, patricia

>

> Please support my my new

> effort to end genital mutilation ...

>

> "The Rape of Innocence :

> One Woman's Story of

> Female Genital Mutilation in the USA"

>

> http://www.AesculapiusPress.com

>

> Purchases and contributions are

> sincerely appreciated!

>

> Links

>

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April 30, 2006

On Apr 29, 2006, at 11:48 PM, astrologerashutosh wrote:

> Bhagvat Gita is no doubt a great philosophical work,

> appreciated by

> many all over the world. But, it was not a part of original

> Mahabharat.

the Mahabharat seems to be quite ? entertaining.

but the gita is the crux. the core.

if it was added, then it still is the only legit part.

history is not all that interesting to me.

only what endures... the light, the vibration, etc.

everything else comes and goes.

civilizations, cultures, worlds... all come and go.

i like what is enduring.

the rest is either history or fancy, but not of

lasting value, as is what the gita talks about.

the rest is temporal.

what the gita discusses is the eternal drama...

we land on the planet, forget who we are...

then someone reminds us who and what we are...

SHOWS us our divine, eternal nature.

thank god. otherwise, the rest is so ? 'so what?'

love, patricia

Please support my my new

effort to end genital mutilation ...

"The Rape of Innocence :

One Woman's Story of

Female Genital Mutilation in the USA"

http://www.AesculapiusPress.com

Purchases and contributions are

sincerely appreciated!

April 30, 2006

that God did exist, and performed all the past times. Lord Krsna did not

appeared in this universe to leave any archeologic evidence of all the past

times, but He appeared in this universe to re-establish Dharma which was

loosing its faith due to undoings of certain characters with demoniac attitude.

That is enough evidence of what u are & what I am. If Krsna had not appeared

than U & me would have not been what we are now. We must thank the Lord for all

what are of today. Krsna provoked Arjun to fight the war, and that is how the

process of establishing Dharma started. Krsna meant to say to Arjun that if we

are not the part of solution then we are part of problem and that is what I am

reiterating once again that I was trying to be part of solution and not part of

problem. Krsna never said anywhere in the scriptures that He is a Hindu God,

nor did He talk of

hinduism or any religion, nor have I expressed religion in any of my mails to

you, then why are u?? Open ur rasi chart once again, u are a wonderful

astrologer, find out which planet & its placement is instigating ur

frustration, have a thorough analysis, I am a biginer in astrology, I would

love to learn from u how u are able to do it. Share the abundant knowledge u hv

with neophytes like me, maybe this is where u may find solution to ur

frustration. I am still searching solution for my own frustration within me.

Harry Das Goravani <das (AT) goravani (DOT) com> wrote: Just to clarify a few points: I

have been to India 4 times, back in the late seventies and early 80's. I was a

Hare Krishna devotee. I had a semi-blind Hare Krishna marriage, 2 kids, and

now a grandchild.

I have read the Bhagavatam, Gita, Mahabharat and Ramayana and some other

Upanishads. All of these I've read extensively, or repeatedly. I lived the

strict Vaisnava lifestyle of the Gaudiya Math/Hare Krishna temples for many

years and served in them.I have been doing Jyotish for 13 years, and during

that time, I have discoursed extensively with hundreds or thousands of souls,

many of whom are Indian. Very often the discussion covered married life,

marriage, sex, children, all those kinds of things. So when I say that Indians

have to deal with meddling from relatives, I know what I'm talking about. I've

heard it over and over and over. I didn't make that up. Also, Haresh, when

you "remind me" that "Krishna is God", well, thank you. Please realize, I

bowed to Krishna every day for many years. I have installed and worshipped his

Vigraha/Murti many times and in many places. I have extensive experience

as a devotee of Krishna, and the whole Krishna/Vaisnava religion with all it's

pieces and parts. Nobody needs to tell me who is Ram, who is Krishna, the

Pandavas, etc.But what I ask you is: Where is the archaeological evidence for

any of that? Where are the golden helmets and chariot wheels on the field of