Guest guest Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Before the birth of Christ, knowledge was flowing from the West to India, and vice versa. Rome had a port in Bombay. Slaves, masters, knowledge, blueprints (so to speak), and everything, was flowing everywhere. So before some of the books we use were written, there were already Western scholars talking to Indian scholars and vice versa. So there’s a chance Ketu as a concept, the South Node concept, may have originated outside India as well. It’s true, I have noticed, that the really older books from India don’t mention things, like the Nodes, or one of the Nodes, or the Nakshatras, or the Dashas... Depending on the book. One thing I would like to make clear for any beginner present is that the nodes are the points where the Moon crosses the plane one which the Earth circles the Sun, so when the Moon crosses these points, one every 14 days or so..the Moon does “wobble” so to speak, in it’s orbit, because of the increased gravitational influence being exerted upon the moon by the combined gravity of the earth and sun together in one plane. The other planets all affect the Moon too, and each other, with their gravity, hence, astrology is real inasmuch as gravity is what keeps things afloat, and aborting a certain way, thus gravity is the harbinger of karma ultimately. As you develop in the womb, all your atoms are being pulled by all the planets! It’s actually physically true. So whatever sign they are in, is also affecting the quality and type of gravity coming from each, as start field energies mix with the gravity waves as they bombard us daily. Rick MacQuoid das (AT) goravani (DOT) com AIM: ROIKMACKAI IM: das_goravani Secure online ordering of Goravani Jyotish 2.5 and Jyotish Studio 3 or (Please use email if at all possible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Gravity is not a possible explanation for astrology (except in the case of the Sun and Moon). The gravitational influence of the doctor in the delivery room was much stronger than the gravitational influence of, say, Mars. M. On Aug 11, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Das Goravani wrote: > > Before the birth of Christ, knowledge was flowing from the West to > India, and vice versa. > > Rome had a port in Bombay. > > Slaves, masters, knowledge, blueprints (so to speak), and > everything, was flowing everywhere. So before some of the books we > use were written, there were already Western scholars talking to > Indian scholars and vice versa. > > So there’s a chance Ketu as a concept, the South Node concept, may > have originated outside India as well. > > It’s true, I have noticed, that the really older books from India > don’t mention things, like the Nodes, or one of the Nodes, or the > Nakshatras, or the Dashas... Depending on the book. > > One thing I would like to make clear for any beginner present is > that the nodes are the points where the Moon crosses the plane one > which the Earth circles the Sun, so when the Moon crosses these > points, one every 14 days or so..the Moon does “wobble” so to > speak, in it’s orbit, because of the increased gravitational > influence being exerted upon the moon by the combined gravity of > the earth and sun together in one plane. The other planets all > affect the Moon too, and each other, with their gravity, hence, > astrology is real inasmuch as gravity is what keeps things afloat, > and aborting a certain way, thus gravity is the harbinger of karma > ultimately. As you develop in the womb, all your atoms are being > pulled by all the planets! It’s actually physically true. So > whatever sign they are in, is also affecting the quality and type > of gravity coming from each, as start field energies mix with the > gravity waves as they bombard us daily. > > > > Rick MacQuoid > AIM: ROIKMACKAI IM: das_goravani > > Secure online ordering of Goravani Jyotish 2.5 and Jyotish Studio 3 > > > > > > or > (Please use email if at all possible) > > > > > > > ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Sorry, this response sounded snotty after I read it. I was just kind of chipping in. On Aug 11, 2005, at 3:22 PM, Michael Taft wrote: > Gravity is not a possible explanation for astrology (except in the > case of the Sun and Moon). The gravitational influence of the doctor > in the delivery room was much stronger than the gravitational > influence of, say, Mars. > M. > > On Aug 11, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Das Goravani wrote: > > >> >> Before the birth of Christ, knowledge was flowing from the West to >> India, and vice versa. >> >> Rome had a port in Bombay. >> >> Slaves, masters, knowledge, blueprints (so to speak), and >> everything, was flowing everywhere. So before some of the books we >> use were written, there were already Western scholars talking to >> Indian scholars and vice versa. >> >> So there’s a chance Ketu as a concept, the South Node concept, may >> have originated outside India as well. >> >> It’s true, I have noticed, that the really older books from India >> don’t mention things, like the Nodes, or one of the Nodes, or the >> Nakshatras, or the Dashas... Depending on the book. >> >> One thing I would like to make clear for any beginner present is >> that the nodes are the points where the Moon crosses the plane one >> which the Earth circles the Sun, so when the Moon crosses these >> points, one every 14 days or so..the Moon does “wobble” so to >> speak, in it’s orbit, because of the increased gravitational >> influence being exerted upon the moon by the combined gravity of >> the earth and sun together in one plane. The other planets all >> affect the Moon too, and each other, with their gravity, hence, >> astrology is real inasmuch as gravity is what keeps things afloat, >> and aborting a certain way, thus gravity is the harbinger of karma >> ultimately. As you develop in the womb, all your atoms are being >> pulled by all the planets! It’s actually physically true. So >> whatever sign they are in, is also affecting the quality and type >> of gravity coming from each, as start field energies mix with the >> gravity waves as they bombard us daily. >> >> >> >> Rick MacQuoid >> AIM: ROIKMACKAI IM: das_goravani >> >> Secure online ordering of Goravani Jyotish 2.5 and Jyotish Studio 3 >> >> >> >> >> >> or >> (Please use email if at all possible) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 It is not true that older scriptures of India do not mention about Rahu or ketu –the shadowy planets . The oldest of the scriptures the Vedas invokes Rahu as followes: “Always ready to bestow on his devotees riches in plenty , friendly and loving, adorned with sandal paste, flowers and an umbrella- all of blue color, armed with sword and skin, seated south-faced on a throne and surrounded by all siddhis , may be the dark -blue Rahu be pleased.” The SMRITIS which are ancient only next to VEDAS gives following attribute to Rahu: ‘Half- bodied, immensely powerful, trouble maker for moon and sun, born of lioness, having a huge body like a mountain of lamp-black snake-shaped, terrible mouthed and devourer of the moon and sun.” Let us remember that to understand the real meaning of the Vedic verses we have to reach at least to some spiritual height. The western commentators not able to comprehend the real meaning of the mystic allegories contained in the sacred texts usually give it a twist as per their own mind just as a child of 4 or 5 understands not what sex is and when interprets it , could only interpret as per his own limited mind. To the Vedic seer who was not imagining but was seeing in clearest vision the subtle vitality behind every planet or any thing for that matter .. to him ‘WHO KNOWS’ ;--every thing is but consciousness condensed .. so also are the planets. Parahara Hora is also very ancient and speaks about Rahu and ketu in clear terms. Our ancients were practical mystiques and scientists beyond our imagination. a glimpse of that could be obtained by any student of Jyotish who knows how mathematical subtle divisions were calculated at that time without any help of calculator or computer. During muslim rule and then the British period made this great country a slave ( more from our own fault) and the British were successful in breeding an inferiority complex to a large extent in the Indian mind. It is said that the then ruler ( Queen) of British empire had directed secretly the western Indologists and history writers not to make Indian history more ancient than Christ and at best than Alexander . However the Indian mind was always liberal and was never ego-centric. As all of us know all the famous authors of ancient Jyotish clearly admit that whatever knowledge they were imparting in their books does not belong to them and have been collected from their ancients . Even they had become so ego- less that in many books nothing is mentioned about the authors unlike present era where the name and so called fame rather than wisdom have become prime factors of authorship. Even though there is no evidence that knowledge was flowing from west, rather the whole world was looking towards AARYAAVARTA – the land of AARYAS – the ones with supreme excellence for light and wisdom ; the aryaan mind was free to admit and respect any one from west ( they used to be called yavanas) who had knowledge and intuition and wisdom in equal terms with aarya rishis without any prejudice. One could have an idea from the follwing verse from (stanza 2, chapter-II) famous Brihat Samhita which is also repeated in PRASHNA MARGA- an ancient treatise on horary: “ When even MLECHHAS ( non- aryaans leaving in an area between Afghanistan and modern Iran) and YAVANAS ( Greeks) well versed in astrology are held in high esteem as Rishis , who would deny respect to an well-versed astrologer who happens to be a Brahmin?” Commenting on this Dr, B.V. Raman writes ,” the stanza furnishes us with clue that the ancients Hindus had cultural relation with Middle East and southern European countries…..******** there seems to have been considered intermingling of Indian, Greek , and Arabian culture , though it can not be denied that all those countries were highly indebted to India , the mother of all arts and science.” There was no distinction or prejudice for them of east or west ( as we have today) for they knew not merely as information but as a part of their self-knowledge the same Vishnu-all pervading , pervades both east and west and all are but relative aspects of space and time. They only used to give importance to self-knowledge – and directed all their action whether it is mundane or spiritual towards this supreme Goal. Knowing that this birth and body are but of a transitory nature, some one who has taken birth here may take birth in some other country., they had no cause for this vein prejudice . Let me tell u an interesting incident from the life of a Great woman Sri Sarada Devi, the divine consort of Bhagawan Sri Ramakrishna Deva. Once she was visiting a sacred temple probably in the south India. At the same time some western visitors were looking with wonder and admiration the majestic temples decorated with sculptures that seemed never possible in human hand.. when some body told sri Sarada Devi about their wonder and awe , she smiled and remarked: those who have verily made it now have come over again and looking at their own creation with wonder… Whatever it may be , the real tribute to those Masters of infinite intelligence who have invented or rather who had discovered the great Vedic science called JYOTISH, would be if we study it carefully and deeply and become a real jyotishi- a real Daivangya and make its use to illuminate our -self and use it for life and growth of individual and country and world and like them shading our own little ( false)ego realize that this world or rather this whole universe, great and grand; is only a infinitesimally little part of DIVINE..---“ EKAAMSENA STHITA JAGAT “( Srimad Bhagavad Gita chapter-X verse-42) Let me conclude quoting these beautiful verses from PRASNA MARGA “The person , who has mastery of this science, who had good knowledge of mathematics, who leads life of DHARMA, WHO IS FREE OF COCEIT AND TRUTHFUL, who is well versed in Vedas, Mantras and Tantras, he alone could be called a Daivangya - knower of the future. All predictions made by such a person will come true and will never be false . The learned support this statement. The predictions of one who has studied the ten kinds of planetary motions and who has understood the inner principles of Astrology will never be falsified. He who has acquired a thorough knowledge of the HORAS, who is an adept in five Siddhantas, who has inferential ability and who is INTIATED IN TO SECRET MANTRA BY PERCEPTOR, can alone know HOROSCOPY.” Let us analyze in our inner mind for a moment to what extent we are qualified to be called an astrologer as per the standard laid down by those whose work we are studying and contemplating. Gurudatta Dash - Das Goravani valist Friday, August 12, 2005 2:19 AM Re: More on Ketu..... Before the birth of Christ, knowledge was flowing from the West to India, and vice versa.Rome had a port in Bombay.Slaves, masters, knowledge, blueprints (so to speak), and everything, was flowing everywhere. So before some of the books we use were written, there were already Western scholars talking to Indian scholars and vice versa.So there’s a chance Ketu as a concept, the South Node concept, may have originated outside India as well.It’s true, I have noticed, that the really older books from India don’t mention things, like the Nodes, or one of the Nodes, or the Nakshatras, or the Dashas... Depending on the book.One thing I would like to make clear for any beginner present is that the nodes are the points where the Moon crosses the plane one which the Earth circles the Sun, so when the Moon crosses these points, one every 14 days or so..the Moon does “wobble” so to speak, in it’s orbit, because of the increased gravitational influence being exerted upon the moon by the combined gravity of the earth and sun together in one plane. The other planets all affect the Moon too, and each other, with their gravity, hence, astrology is real inasmuch as gravity is what keeps things afloat, and aborting a certain way, thus gravity is the harbinger of karma ultimately. As you develop in the womb, all your atoms are being pulled by all the planets! It’s actually physically true. So whatever sign they are in, is also affecting the quality and type of gravity coming from each, as start field energies mix with the gravity waves as they bombard us daily.Rick MacQuoid das (AT) goravani (DOT) comAIM: ROIKMACKAI IM: das_goravanihttp://www.goravani.com Secure online ordering of Goravani Jyotish 2.5 and Jyotish Studio 32852 Willamette St #353 or (Please use email if at all possible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Dear Steve, Thanks for bringing this fascinating historical question to our attention. It's not an area I think about often but given the unanswered questions you raise here, perhaps it's time I should. If it's true that Ketu was a later post-6th century C.E. add-on to the whole system, then one is forced to think of the Vimshottari system and indeed all of Jyotish in a somewhat different light. Rather than a complete system in place, it seems to have been arrived at more gradually, as perhaps Hellenistic or Western astrology was. And if that's true, then the idea of it being "received" knowledge seems more unlikely. How did the great astrologers of Parashara's time then go about the task of plugging Ketu into their pre-existing system? Chris - Steven Stuckey valist Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:37 PM More on Ketu..... Dear Members,I find it interesting that there is no mention of Ketu in the Brihat Jataka of Varaha Mihira. Ketu is however mentioned in his Brihat Samitha, not as the 'tail' of Rahu ,but as one of the "thousand Ketu's" or comets. Varamira's works are dated to the 6th century AD (or CE).Rahu's connection to eclipes goes back as far as the Rig Veda, where he is known as the eclipse demon called Svarbhanu. Stories describing Rahu's beheading from the Mahabharata and Bhagavata Purana mention only that Rahu's severed head fell to the ground--no tail.So how exactly did Ketu the comet, become the south Node or the 'tail' of the demon? Not only this, but how exactly did Ketu acheive the status (if you want to call it that) as the star lord of Asvini?Dr. Anthony Stone in his "Hindu Astrology, Myths, Symbols and Realities" points out: ..."There is also archaeological evidence reflecting the change in concept of Ketu from comet to node. Jitendra Nath Banerjea tells us that among the Siva temples at Bhuvanesvara, the earlier ones carry representations of 8 grahas, omitting Ketu, while the latter ones have the 9 grahas. This change took place near the end of the first millenium A.D. The same author gives a photograph of a 6th century A.D. relief from Sarnath, now in the Indian Museum, Calcutta, showing Jupiter, Venus, Saturn, and Rahu. This relief was probably placed on the right hand side of a door lintel, with the first four planets in a corresponding position on the left. Rahu is clearly the last in line."It seems that Ketu gradually achieved it's status as the south Node sometime after the 6th century AD....or not? Of course Ketu is discussed in the Brihat Parashara Hora--did this classical text come after Varahamira?Dr Stone suggests that Ketu's origins as the descending node may have arisen as part of Tantric astrology. Is there anyone on the list knowledgeable in such things?Best wishes,Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Christopher Kevill wrote: Dear Steve, Thanks for bringing this fascinating historical question to our attention. It's not an area I think about often but given the unanswered questions you raise here, perhaps it's time I should. If it's true that Ketu was a later post-6th century C.E. add-on to the whole system, then one is forced to think of the Vimshottari system and indeed all of Jyotish in a somewhat different light. Rather than a complete system in place, it seems to have been arrived at more gradually, as perhaps Hellenistic or Western astrology was. And if that's true, then the idea of it being "received" knowledge seems more unlikely. How did the great astrologers of Parashara's time then go about the task of plugging Ketu into their pre-existing system? Hi Chris, The great Parashara Muni was supposed to have lived a long time ago--thousands of years. He is the father of Vyasadeva, also known as Veda-Vyas who is accepted as the author of all the Vedas, Puranas, Mahabharata etc. Some date the oldest of the Vedas, the Rig Veda, as going back 10,000 years or more, to others there is no such thing as time constraints on the great Vedas, as they are considered an eternal embodiment of the divine. In light of the above, and some historians dating the Brihat Parashara Hora very late in time (Professor David Pinagree dates it to the 7th century CE), one can become very confused when trying to sort things out. Since I am not a sanskrit scholar, and don't live in India, I'll probably never get an answer--and there may be no answer anyway. My guess is that even amongst scholars on he subject there will be many conflicting opinions. It seems we should be able to at least date the text in some way, since we are not just dealing with an abstract concept. One might assume there is a long history of oral tradition behind the Parashara Hora, but at some point it was set down in writing. But I would be interested in others opinions on this who are more knowledgeable. Best, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 Hello Steven, By swinging the censer of Ketu you have effectively managed to smoke out all matter of folk from the wood pile. Very interesting this pursuance of this important part of astrology...the Nodes of the Moon. I do believe them to be like unto the 6/7ths of the iceberg unseen beneath the sea. Dark*Star _________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 Dark Star wrote: >Hello Steven, > >By swinging the censer of Ketu you have effectively managed to smoke out >all matter of folk from the wood pile. Very interesting this pursuance >of this important part of astrology...the Nodes of the Moon. I do >believe them to be like unto the 6/7ths of the iceberg unseen beneath >the sea. > >Dark*Star > Dear Dark Star, You should be a poet in my opinion--or perhaps you already are..... In reality I am not trying to sink any ship, if that's what you are implying. If the ship is built well, then it should be able to easily glide over a few harmless icebergs that must necessarily pop up from time to time. Besides, the icebergs serve to keep the captain and crew on alert, sharp and vigilant, which improves their ability to steer in even more stormy weather. Best, Steve > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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