The Devil's Bliss (for Mary et al)

May 8, 2006

Namaste Mary and all:

It is interesting to speculate about what happened before life ever

started here on Earth. This is the kind of exercise that theologians

do and get recognition or notoriety (as in how many angels can you

fit on a head of a pin?), whatever the case may be depending on the

review by the other thinkers.

My responses to your comments are as follows:

1. Following your argument of Lucifer forseeing the

> future and choosing to fight a lost battle, why assume

> hell is a place of foreboding and suffering? I mean,

> those are words that could describe small degrees of

> suffering as well as large, but why choose it unless

> there's an illusion of victory there?

It appears to me that hell is the complete opposite of heaven, which

is the complete fulfillment of a person's desires. According to

Swedenbourg (a Protestant thinker/mystic), there are degrees of bliss

or fulfillment in heaven, depending on one's development in

consciousness.

Similarly, there are degrees of suffering for the unfortunate souls

who deserve to be in Hades or hell.

I believe Lucifer knowingly took the option to be the negation of

fulfillment. In a sense, it is Power which is what he wanted. It is

the power of evil which we experience in this relative life or world

of matter.

We can speculate that all of the angels in heaven, including Lucifer,

knew that this option was available if they choose to do so. For

whatever reasons, Lucifer and his rebels took the option to negate

the bliss of heaven. Thus, we experience the results even in our own

lifetime.

Did Lucifer take this option for his own gratification to be equal in

power with the Creator? Or did he take this option because someone

has to take this role of Negativity in the heavenly realm? In other

words, did he do this out of Love? (somehow this does not sound

feasible to me, but other theologians have made this speculation)

There was another writer who speculated that Lucifer and his cohorts

rebelled against the powers of heaven because they perceived from

their own powers of foresight that the Creator was going to create

human beings out of matter and that He/She was going to share the

joys of heaven with humans. As such, the Creator would have to

descend to the level of matter to get this plan fulfilled. In other

words, the Creator would have be born on earth through woman.

This is getting a bit long. So, I'll continue the next

time...depending on the interest with this line of thought.

Regards,

John R.

>

> I mean, couldn't hell be a place of falseness? False

> ego. False victory. Almost getting, but not quite. Can

> taste success on the tip of your tongue but can't

> quite grasp it? Lucifer then could forsee victory and

> attainment of his goals, but only realize the loss

> when he achieves dominion in hell (assuming for this

> arguement the existence of such a 'place') and

> discovers that without surrender of ego he can never

> win? Yet he IS ego, so can never surrender it and

> never achieve the peace, or the Heaven, of

> fulfillment?

>

> A hell without fire and brimstone...an emotional and

> mental pain.

>

> That's my thought. I'm tired now. Takes it out of me.

> I think I'll go lie down.

>

> Yeah, I'm joking around.

>

> --- John <jr_esq wrote:

>

> > To all members:

> >

> > A few years ago, Bill Moyers was discussing

> > philosophy with a guy named

> > Campbell, who was knowledgeable about world culture

> > and religions.

> > They got around to talking about the devil's peace

> > of mind in hell.

> > Moyers was saying that hell is a place of foreboding

> > and suffering.

> > However, the only thing that sustains Satan is his

> > memory of Love while

> > he was in heaven.

> >

> > In the Christian tradition, Satan used to be the

> > most beautiful and

> > powerful Archangel named Lucifer. Perhaps due to

> > pride and ambition,

> > he led the other angels to rebel against the other

> > powers in heaven.

> > Needless to say, Lucifer lost and was banished to

> > hell.

> >

> > This brings us to speculate if Lucifer knew ahead of

> > time that he was

> > going to lose the rebellion. As a former archangel,

> > he too had the

> > power of foreseeing the future.

> >

> > If this was the case, then he knew that he was going

> > to lose and that

> > he was going to be banished. It appears to me that

> > he willingly took

> > this option because it was available. It was the

> > only option where he

> > can be the ruler of the realm, albeit of suffering

> > or perdition. In

> > other words, it was the ultimate ego trip.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > John R.

>

May 8, 2006

john, i too am loving what you are writing.

do you know if it is true that the word 'desire'

comes from the french, "de sire", meaning "of god"?

the garden of eden, the job story... it all fits,

doesn't it. pleasure / pain ... fascinating...

the exaltation of sacrifice and deprivation to the

status of 'godliness.' i am SO intrigued.

looking forward to hearing more of your ideas.

this is all very timely for me.

thank you.

On May 8, 2006, at 10:05 AM, John wrote:

> It appears to me that hell is the complete opposite of heaven, which

> is the complete fulfillment of a person's desires. According to

> Swedenbourg (a Protestant thinker/mystic), there are degrees of bliss

> or fulfillment in heaven, depending on one's development in

> consciousness.

---

My new book...

"The Rape of Innocence :

One Woman's Story of

Female Genital Mutilation in the USA"

http://www.AesculapiusPress.com

May 9, 2006

Greetings, John.

Interesting theological discussion.> Did Lucifer take this option for his own

gratification to be equal in > power with the Creator? Or did he take this

option because someone > has to take this role of Negativity in the heavenly

realm?

I'm particularly interested in the latter option. Heaven seems to relate to a

manifested (material) form of God and empirical study finds most manifestation

to be bipolar... matter/antimatter, night/day, love/hate, heaven/hell??

Following this reasoning some being would be required to be in charge of hell,

right?

If I try to find an analogy within Jyotish it would be the role of Mars, Saturn.

These grahas are known to be the most malefic and yet the role that they play,

is essential isn't it? I mean take Mars for instance. Without war, conflicts

would never be resolved. In the absence of sport, competition would be

meaningless and so would enterprise. However these grahas can create hell on

earth for people as well.

Regards,

Tejpal

> valist> jr_esq > Mon, 8 May 2006

17:05:55 +0000> Re: The Devil's Bliss (for Mary et al)> > Namaste

Mary and all:> > It is interesting to speculate about what happened before life

ever > started here on Earth. This is the kind of exercise that theologians >

do and get recognition or notoriety (as in how many angels can you > fit on a

head of a pin?), whatever the case may be depending on the > review by the

other thinkers.> > My responses to your comments are as follows:> > 1.

Following your argument of Lucifer forseeing the> > future and choosing to

fight a lost battle, why assume> > hell is a place of foreboding and suffering?

I mean,> > those are words that could describe small degrees of> > suffering as

well as large, but why choose it unless> > there's an illusion of victory

there?> > It appears to me that hell is the complete opposite of heaven, which

> is the complete fulfillment of a person's desires. According to >

Swedenbourg (a Protestant thinker/mystic), there are degrees of bliss > or

fulfillment in heaven, depending on one's development in > consciousness.> >

Similarly, there are degrees of suffering for the unfortunate souls > who

deserve to be in Hades or hell.> > I believe Lucifer knowingly took the option

to be the negation of > fulfillment. In a sense, it is Power which is what he

wanted. It is > the power of evil which we experience in this relative life or

world > of matter.> > We can speculate that all of the angels in heaven,

including Lucifer, > knew that this option was available if they choose to do

so. For > whatever reasons, Lucifer and his rebels took the option to negate >

the bliss of heaven. Thus, we experience the results even in our own >

lifetime.> > Did Lucifer take this option for his own gratification to be equal

in > power with the Creator? Or did he take this option because someone > has

to take this role of Negativity in the heavenly realm? In other > words, did

he do this out of Love? (somehow this does not sound > feasible to me, but

other theologians have made this speculation)> > There was another writer who

speculated that Lucifer and his cohorts > rebelled against the powers of heaven

because they perceived from > their own powers of foresight that the Creator was

going to create > human beings out of matter and that He/She was going to share

the > joys of heaven with humans. As such, the Creator would have to > descend

to the level of matter to get this plan fulfilled. In other > words, the

Creator would have be born on earth through woman.> > This is getting a bit

long. So, I'll continue the next > time...depending on the interest with this

line of thought.> > Regards,> > John R.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I mean, couldn't hell be a place of falseness? False> > ego. False victory.

Almost getting, but not quite. Can> > taste success on the tip of your tongue

but can't> > quite grasp it? Lucifer then could forsee victory and> >

attainment of his goals, but only realize the loss> > when he achieves dominion

in hell (assuming for this> > arguement the existence of such a 'place') and> >

discovers that without surrender of ego he can never> > win? Yet he IS ego, so

can never surrender it and> > never achieve the peace, or the Heaven, of> >

fulfillment?> > > > A hell without fire and brimstone...an emotional and> >

mental pain.> > > > That's my thought. I'm tired now. Takes it out of me.> > I

think I'll go lie down.> > > > Yeah, I'm joking around.> > > > --- John

<jr_esq wrote:> > > > > To all members:> > > > > > A few years ago, Bill

Moyers was discussing> > > philosophy with a guy named > > > Campbell, who was

knowledgeable about world culture> > > and religions. > > > They got around to

talking about the devil's peace> > > of mind in hell. > > > Moyers was saying

that hell is a place of foreboding> > > and suffering. > > > However, the only

thing that sustains Satan is his> > > memory of Love while > > > he was in

heaven.> > > > > > In the Christian tradition, Satan used to be the> > > most

beautiful and > > > powerful Archangel named Lucifer. Perhaps due to> > >

pride and ambition, > > > he led the other angels to rebel against the other> >

> powers in heaven. > > > Needless to say, Lucifer lost and was banished to> >

> hell.> > > > > > This brings us to speculate if Lucifer knew ahead of> > >

time that he was > > > going to lose the rebellion. As a former archangel,> >

> he too had the > > > power of foreseeing the future.> > > > > > If this was

the case, then he knew that he was going> > > to lose and that > > > he was

going to be banished. It appears to me that> > > he willingly took > > > this

option because it was available. It was the> > > only option where he > > >

can be the ruler of the realm, albeit of suffering> > > or perdition. In > > >

other words, it was the ultimate ego trip.> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > John

R.> > > > > > >

> > >

> >> > > > > > > > :

> >

Links> > <*> >

valist/> > <*> To from this group,

send an email to:> valist> > <*> Your use of

is subject to:> > > > >

Join the next generation of Hotmail and you could win the adventure of a

lifetime Learn More.

May 9, 2006

Dear Tejpal,

I`m not sure if this fits in with your astrological point of view regarding Mars

& Saturn but as I recall, in the Hindu Mythology, the trouble began when the

Gods chose Brihaspati as their Guru. This angered the other Guru Shukracharya

no end, as he felt more qualified for such a post.

He retaliated by becomming the Guru of the Asuras & vowed to evolve them into a

race far superior & surpassing the Devas in everyway.

He nearly never succeeds though because his own ego & the Asuras desires always let him down.

Sometimes even at the nth hour when victory was almost won. And even when it was

won, it was soon lost because ego & desire overwhelmed the victors into

irresponsible & selfindulgent behaviour.

In the rare instance, when the Asura king Bali achieved everything there was to

achieve in all the worlds, he rejected his Guru Shukracharya`s advise to

consolidate his name & fame but rather surrendered all to Vishnu.

I guess ? this could be the ultimate example of Venus exalted in Pisces in the

9th house & Sun exalted in Aries in the 10th. May be Shani would be in 4th

house exalted in its detachment & Mars might be with the moon in the 12th,

surrendering the ego & mind things. ( sorry! couldnt resist speculating at the

risk of exposing my lack of knowledge in matters astrological but I do like the

picture for myself, If I should be so lucky.)

So following this tack, I`d say that the Gurus / Angeles are both benefic but

its the individual karmic direction which makes the planets create

circumstances in the way they do. Yes Mars represents war & conflict but also

streangth, courage & goal oriented energy. Saturn represents misery & obstacles

but also discipline & durability.

I believe that our Karmik energy field is responsible for the circumstances in

which we find ourselves & the appropriate guidance is provided by the relevant

guru / Angel, who then uses the planetary energies to achieve the desired

results.

For eg: a debilated Shani may percieve struggles & poverty, lamenting all ones

life but an exalted one may enjoy austerities & frugality despite having it

all.

Hari Om.

Shabnam

----

Tejpal Singh

05/09/06 08:52:18

valist

RE: Re: The Devil's Bliss (for Mary et al)

Greetings, John.

Interesting theological discussion.> Did Lucifer take this option for his own

gratification to be equal in > power with the Creator? Or did he take this

option because someone > has to take this role of Negativity in the heavenly

realm?

I'm particularly interested in the latter option. Heaven seems to relate to a

manifested (material) form of God and empirical study finds most manifestation

to be bipolar... matter/antimatter, night/day, love/hate, heaven/hell??

Following this reasoning some being would be required to be in charge of hell,

right?

If I try to find an analogy within Jyotish it would be the role of Mars, Saturn.

These grahas are known to be the most malefic and yet the role that they play,

is essential isn't it? I mean take Mars for instance. Without war, conflicts

would never be resolved. In the absence of sport, competition would be

meaningless and so would enterprise. However these grahas can create hell on

earth for people as well.

Regards,

Tejpal

> valist> jr_esq > Mon, 8 May 2006

17:05:55 +0000> Re: The Devil's Bliss (for Mary et al)> > Namaste

Mary and all:> > It is interesting to speculate about what happened before life

ever > started here on Earth. This is the kind of exercise that theologians >

do and get recognition or notoriety (as in how many angels can you > fit on a

head of a pin?), whatever the case may be depending on the > review by the

other thinkers.> > My responses to your comments are as follows:> > 1. Followi

ng your argument of Lucifer forseeing the> > future and choosing to fight a lost

battle, why assume> > hell is a place of foreboding and suffering? I mean,> >

those are words that could describe small degrees of> > suffering as well as

large, but why choose it unless> > there's an illusion of victory there?> > It

appears to me that hell is the complete opposite of heaven, which > is the

complete fulfillment of a person's desires. According to > Swedenbourg (a

Protestant thinker/mystic), there are degrees ;of bliss > or fulfillment in

heaven, depending on one's development in > consciousness.> > Similarly, there

are degrees of suffering for the unfortunate souls > who deserve to be in Hades

or hell.> > I believe Lucifer knowingly took the option to be the negation of >

fulfillment. In a sense, it is Power which is what he wanted. It is > the

power of evil which we experience in this relative life or world > of matter.>

> We can speculate that all of the angels in heaven, including Lucifer, > knew

that this option was available if they choose to do so. For > whatever

reasons, Lucifer and his rebels took the option to negate > the bliss of

heaven. Thus, we experience the results even in our own > lifetime.> > Did

Lucifer take this option for his own gratification to be equal in > power with

the Creator? Or did he take this option because someone > has to take this

role of Negativity in the heavenly realm? In other > words, did he do this out

of Love? (somehow this does no t sound > feasible to me, but other theologians

have made this speculation)> > There was another writer who speculated that

Lucifer and his cohorts > rebelled against the powers of heaven because they

perceived from > their own powers of foresight that the Creator was going to

create > human beings out of matter and that He/She was going to share the >

joys of heaven with humans. As such, the Creator would have to > descend to

the level of matter to get this plan fulfilled. In other > words, the Cr eator

would have be born on earth through woman.> > This is getting a bit long. So,

I'll continue the next > time...depending on the interest with this line of

thought.> > Regards,> > John R.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean,

couldn't hell be a place of falseness? False> > ego. False victory. Almost

getting, but not quite. Can> > taste success on the tip of your tongue but

can't> > quite grasp it? Lucifer then could forsee victory&nbs p;and> >

attainment of his goals, but only realize the loss> > when he achieves dominion

in hell (assuming for this> > arguement the existence of such a 'place') and> >

discovers that without surrender of ego he can never> > win? Yet he IS ego, so

can never surrender it and> > never achieve the peace, or the Heaven, of> >

fulfillment?> > > > A hell without fire and brimstone...an emotional and> >

mental pain.> > > > That's my thought. I'm tired now. Takes it out of me.> >&n

bsp;I think I'll go lie down.> > > > Yeah, I'm joking around.> > > > --- John