WHY FATHER A TRIKONA and mother a kendra?

[Guest guest]

Jaya Jagannath

Dear Mani,

I can always expect you to ask the toughest questions. But I find it

such a pleasure to reply..My views are as under:-

 

 

> Dear Sanjay, Dear Alfonso,

>

> Have followed your debate and find loopholes on both sides!

>

> 1. The fact that the father "leaves" the home and "goes to work", so that

> the children are only brought up by the mother, is true only since about

> 150 years.

>

> This was a product of the industrial revoluition. Before that most fathers

> worked at home or at a place attached to the home, a shop or workshop.

> Only a minority of fathers worked "for others" - officials, soldiers etc.

> When not in school the children were very much in the company of the

> father. On farms this was unavoidable!

 

SRath: Thats for Alfonso..

 

> 2. To equate the "house of activity" with father is weak logic: it is the

> house

>

> of activity for the native and the father is not connected with that,

> unless he

>

> is the employer! The real reason was the 10th being 7th from 4th: partner

> of the mother. This has some justification.

 

SRath: Freud's theory is working in this logic. It is really limited

thinking.

 

> 3. The cyclic explanation ginen by Sanjay is also good. The 1st becomes

> 5th of the 9th. This rule also applies to siblings: 3rd = younger, 11th=

> elder. Lagna

>

> becomes 11th from 3rd and 3rd from 11th.

>

> But what of the mother? Has she no child? 5th from 4th is 8th!

 

SRath: The Pada of the 8th is the Third house ruling co-borns. I hope you

now have the answer as to "Why the third rules co-borns".

 

> 4. In all jyothish literature the female side is very much neglected.

> Sisters etc. are hardly mentioned. The equivalent words to include both

> sexes is also rare in the texts, the talk is of brother, uncle etc.

>

> This was also true of western astrology, till this century. Career as such

> was very rare for women and one could only talk of "service" or "talent".

>

> Astrology has to grow and suit the society. We cannot say which house

> rules which person or article, but only its equivalent. The person who

> plays the role

>

> of mother is under the 4th as much as the woman who bore the person. But

> if the

>

> mother is the head of the family? In Kerala this is so. Is she then under

> 9th?

 

SRath: No, no Mani-ji. The Dharma is still from the Father. What you mention

is the system of inheritance i.e either Patrilineal from the 8th house

(being 12th sign or giving away from the 9th house ruling Father) OR

Matrilineal from the 3rd house (Pada of 8th house as well as the 12th sign

from the 4th house ruling Mother).

 

> Perhaps new rules have to be found to signify "parent", "biological mother

> and father", de facto mother/father figure!

> In spite of my admiration for jyothish I am disappointed by the approach

> of jyothishis. Except for the false zodiac, the western approach appeals

> to me more.

 

SRath: Why don't you take a Guru. Start reading the Dakshina Moorti Stotra.

 

> A good deal of Varahamihira´s books deal with "circus " thinking: for

> example the location of the house of birth, the direction faced by the

> house door, whether father was present at time of delivery etc. These

> erudite "readings" could impress a client, if the astrologer was right.

> But what is the intrinsic value?

 

SRath: Confirmation of the Horoscope and Planetary influences. How do we

correct the horoscope of a 21 Day old baby who has no other events other

than birth?

 

> Is astrology there to find out the fates of the relatives? The fundamental

> thing is to analyze the person and show him or her how to go forward. The

> relationship with others has to be understood to understand the person. In

> short, the astrologer has to be psychologist and psychiatrist. Western

> astrology attempts to fulfill this, but jyothish dos not. Jyothish is very

> "thingish" and even its religious connection makes it "materialistic".

> Instead of giving advice as to how one should correct one´s weaknesses, it

> concentrates on "warding off evil effects". Fine, but does that help to

> get over one´s Karma? No lessons are taught, none learned, but escapism

> is supported!

 

SRath: See the Darapada for this. The relations with the various persons can

be easily understood from the various Arudha Pada. This has been explained

with umpteen examples inmy book Crux of Vedic Astrology. Mani-ji have you

read it ? Lack of appretiation of any subject is purely due to a lack of

knowledge of the same. This is applicable to all subjects. Even SEX was

studied by the Maharishi's as a subject..Kamasutra of Sage Vatsayana. This

was not appretiated for a long time. However, now Medicine has sexology as a

subject and there are also experts in the field.

 

> This is not the fault of jyothish, but of jyothishis, right through the

> ages. The western interest in jyothis is most welcome. But for God´s sake

> please avoid the mistakes that have been made in India for centuries! The

> last 2000 years of

>

> Indian history is a tale of decadence. If you pick up the roots of vedic

> culture, start using it afresh, avoiding the pitfalls that have led to the

> misery of India today.

 

SRath: Please specify. I am very concerned about the rejuvination of Vedic

Astrology.

 

> namaste

> Mani

>

> PS: If Mars is karaka for brothers, who is karaka for sisters?

 

SRath:Venus is the significator for sisters. I hope you see my point about

knowledge and appretiation of a subject.

 

Hare Krishna,

Sanjay Rath

 

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[Guest guest]

Jaya Jagannath

Dear Mani,

 

>

> > The real reason was the 10th being 7th from 4th: partner

> > > of the mother. This has some justification.

> >

> > SRath: Freud's theory is working in this logic. It is really limited

> > thinking.

>

> Limited, yes! But I think that the mother´s relationship to her husband is

> sown

>

> by the 10th. We have to differentiate between the native´s relationship

> to the

>

> father and the relationships of the others to that father. One may have a

> good relationship to the father, but the brother may quarrel with that

> same father. The mother may hate him!

 

RATH: Please read my book Crux of Vedic Astrology. Not only can we predict

the relationship of brothers/sisters, but also that of their spouses!! I

have given an example in that book where a very difficult and complex

relationships between seven brothers and sisters and their spouses resulting

in court cases was solved within a year to the satisfaction of all. Each

individual has been pointed out in the D-3 chart. With some practise you can

also do this. There are many more examples for not only determining

individual co-borns, but also their relations and things like whether they

stay nearby or far away, their job etc.

 

> > > But what of the mother? Has she no child? 5th from 4th is 8th!

> >

> > SRath: The Pada of the 8th is the Third house ruling co-borns. I hope

> > you now have the answer as to "Why the third rules co-borns".

>

> I do not understand you, being new to jyothish - and astrology is not my

> profession or main pursuit! I have read a lot about padas from your

> letters, have archived them for later study. More at the end!

SRATH: How many of us in this list are professional astrologers? If I were

one, then I would never share this knowledge with you as it would be my

trade secret for earning. Pada is a broad term ands there are various types

mutually independant..

 

> But my query still stands: the 5th from mother (4th), should show the

> native, not co-borns - theoretically, if one follows the system.

> > > if the

> > >

> > > mother is the head of the family? In Kerala this is so. Is she then

> > > under 9th?

> >

> > SRath: No, no Mani-ji. The Dharma is still from the Father. What you

> > mention is the system of inheritance i.e either Patrilineal from the 8th

> > house (being 12th sign or giving away from the 9th house ruling Father)

> > OR Matrilineal from the 3rd house (Pada of 8th house as well as the 12th

> > sign from the 4th house ruling Mother).

 

RATH: I said that the 3rd signifies co-borns as it is 8th from the 8th house

(Pada). I have fully endorsed your view about the 8th house signifying self.

In fact the 1st, 8th and 10th are the three primary houses of the self used

for longevity estimation as well. If the three lords are exalted and not

conjoined /aspected by Saturn, then they give long life. Thus, the 4th is

the house of the Mother and the 5th therefrom i.e. the 8th is the house of

the self.

 

> Here I must disagree: the system in Kerala is not merely a question of

> inheritance. When I went to school 50 years ago I had a lot of Keralites

> as companions. The "fathers" were relatively unimportant, the mothers had

> the say in all things. The mothers were often promiscuous - the men too! -

> and the biological father was not always the official one!

> This is not much discussed in India, but confined to Kerala. But almost

> all Keralite and even Malabar families exhibit this feature: the wife has

> the last say, at least at home! The husband is essentially a breadwinner,

> and the family

>

> adapts itself to that circumstance, but not to the father´s authority!

 

RATH: Throughout India, the effect of the mordern age is that the women have

more say except in feudal societies. Look at Maharashtra where the women are

very independant. Simply because people are more promiscuous, we cannot

alter the house of the father to the tenth.

 

> > Except for the false zodiac, the western approach appeals

> > to me more.

>

> > SRath: Why don't you take a Guru. Start reading the Dakshina Moorti

> > Stotra.

>

> I think there is a misunderstanding. The western approach is to tell the

> client

>

> how to improve himself and get nearer to God. It does not succeed, owing

> to a basic mistake - the tropical zodiac. If one uses the sidereal zodiac

> - and here I think Chandrahari´s is the final and correct one! - the

> western approach

>

> is good.

 

RATH: Is Chandrahari from Kerala? Why do you find him correct and the rest

of India incorrect?

 

> It is too late for me to get a human guru: my guru is LALITHA, the GREAT

> MOTHER! Since I can talk to her, I need no recitations. Did you ever

> recite mantras and hymns to your mother? Or did/do you talk to her, tell

> her your problems, ask for help or advice, exchange affection? Why should

> I say to the MOTHER what someone else wrote, when I have words of my own?

 

RATH: Mani-ji, take this from this young friend..IT IS NEVER TOO LATE for

who knows how old the ATMA is? We all have our own methods of approaching

the Divine. Is the Moon/Venus in trines/ lordship of trines to your D-20

(Vimsamsa)chart? Check for a definite relationship with the 9th house in

D-20. This has to be there in your chart.

 

> Prayer is different from using mantras: the latter are "magical" formulae

> for creating certain effects in the cosmos. Prayer is exchange of love. I

> have many wishes for humanity, wish that I can help humanity, but my chief

> wish to go home to my Mother, peacefully.

 

RATH: Mantra and stotra are also meant for exchanging affection. Problem is

most people do not understand them, and the effect is lost. Being perfectly

matched to natural vibrations, they help us to establish a quick rapport

with the Divine. You talk of humanity..now I know for sure that it is the

MOON..

 

> No, my friend, I need no stotra. I do not want to tell my MOTHER that she

> is the greatest, the only one etc. She is the greatest because she is the

> only one! And she made us, to relieve her of her loneliness! I only want

> to say, "Mama, I want to be with you always!"

 

RATH: "Ma" This is the Beejakshara of the Divine Mother. Everytime you say

this you are a step closer. It is ruled by Saturn signifying the weak one

and we approach Her as weak children begging for Her protection and help. It

has Akash Tatwa and hence is purely Sattwik. Thus, even while writing that

sentence you have worshipped Her. The difference lies in knowing all these

things. You are free to choose between knowledge and ignorance. Kalidasa was

illiterate and a great worshipper of the Divine Mother. One day he was

mocked by some Pundits and he went crying to the temple of "Sri Kali Ma "

the result is visible in his works as we all know of him as one of the

literary genius of ancient India. Imagine, he not only produced masterpiece

plays etc, but also contributed to Jyotish (illiterate!!!). He was the first

to clearly define the relationship between Hara & Hari (illiterate

philosopher!!!). "MA"- the magic lies in that word. Now, if we accept that

we cannot match the Genius of Kalidasa and worship the Divine Mother with

the same lines as he did, are we being intelligent or foolish? I know at

least a few thousand Mantra of the Divine Mother and in each I rejoice with

the knowledge of another form, mood, color etc. Everytime I rejoice, I get

to know more.

 

> > SRath: Confirmation of the Horoscope and Planetary influences. How do we

> > correct the horoscope of a 21 Day old baby who has no other events other

> > than birth?

>

> Agreed. The problem is in the application. As I said, the fault lies

> with jyothishis, not jyothish. Today no one goes to an astrologer whn the

> baby is 21

>

> days old! The local pundit casts the horoscope for the time the father

> gives, without any questions. The astrologer is consulted when marriage

> is thought of.

> Details about the house of birth are often forgotten.

>

> But I accept your answer!!!!!!

 

RATH: Mani-ji, you will be surprised to know of the number of horoscopes of

Babies I have had to cast to give them a name (Not ignoring other things

like health etc. Recently I had the chart of a child having the 8th brain

operation. It needs a lot of Faith in one's Guru and Ista Sri Jagannath.

This time in the ninth operation, the doctors were successful. I bow to Lord

Jagannath for His kindness). Perhaps this is the reason for people of this

locality considering it auspicious for getting the chart cast by me.

 

> >

> > > Is astrology there to find out the fates of the relatives? The

> > > fundamental thing is to analyze the person and show him or her how to

> > > go forward. The relationship with others has to be understood to

> > > understand the person. In short, the astrologer has to be psychologist

> > > and psychiatrist. Western astrology attempts to fulfill this, but

> > > jyothish dos not. Jyothish is very "thingish" and even its religious

> > > connection makes it "materialistic". Instead of giving advice as to

> > > how one should correct one´s weaknesses, it concentrates on "warding

> > > off evil effects". Fine, but does that help to get over one´s Karma?

> > > No lessons are taught, none learned, but escapism is supported!

> >

> > SRath: See the Darapada for this. The relations with the various persons

> > can be easily understood from the various Arudha Pada. This has been

> > explained with umpteen examples inmy book Crux of Vedic Astrology.

> > Mani-ji have you read it ? Lack of appretiation of any subject is purely

> > due to a lack of knowledge of the same. This is applicable to all

> > subjects. Even SEX was.....

>

> I do not object to the reading or understanding of relations with various

> persons, but do not like the idea of making predictions for the father

> from the

>

> child´s horoscope, without looking at the father´s chart. It is the

> relationship that counts.

 

RATH: A good Jyotish can read upto 3 generations up and 3 generations down

from one chart. That is Jyotish. Western Astrology as is practised nowadays

is a farce. I really hope that some serious astrologer takes up this study

of Western Astrology and achieves at least 10% of the level of Nostradamus.

Since you are so keen to learn this, why not take it up wholeheartedly?

Piecemeal approach will not help. I see a lot of promise in Alfonso, but

these days he has started making a khichdi (Potpourri) by mixing up systems

to prove a point. I have done a lot of reading of Alan Leo, Sephareal and

even those Chiero books we get at the railway station, but am too deep into

Vedic Jyotish to deviate. These are different branches of the same tree and

bear the same fruit.

 

> Since you have not referred to this, I assume that you agree with my

> principle objection: the usual astrologer in India does not tell the

> client how to improve himself, only suggests remedies. In this way a

> murderer can get planetary protection. But what of the effects on his

> soul?

 

RATH: I have made a murderer give up the Gun for the rosary. Arguments do

not help. Jyotish helps in reforming people as they realise that when a

small Pundit can tell all his misdeeds, he cannot escape the EYES OF LORD

JAGANNATH. There are quacks and cheats in all fields. That should not make

us judgemental.

 

> > > Indian history is a tale of decadence. If you pick up the roots of

> > > vedic culture, start using it afresh, avoiding the pitfalls that have

> > > led to the misery of India today.

> >

> > SRath: Please specify. I am very concerned about the rejuvination of

> > Vedic Astrology.

>

> In vedic times, if you read the upanishads, you will see that sishyas

> asked questions which provoked the gurus to think. Sometimes the gurus

> could not find

>

> the answer, but the sishya did not give up and found the answer. Gurus

> themselves often met and debated, which also provoked thinking. Knowledge

> grew.

>

>

> It was the rule and custom to treat the guru with respect, but not to

> assume that he knew everything. The disciple was expected to use the

> knowledge given to him by the guru to build up on it, make further

> research.

>

> But this stagnated and respecting the guru was turned into saying that the

> guru

>

> always knew better than the disciple and that his words were final. Now if

> every disciple knows less than his guru did, at some stage the knowledge

> of the disciple will be zero! This has more or less happened: the contents

> of ancient texts are repeated unquestioningly. Under the British rule it

> was the fashion to consider the texts as useless or outdated products of

> fantasy. But how many say, "Here is knowledge that we have to understand,

> correct or adapt as necessary, and add to by research."?

 

RATH: I agree with this.

 

> There were/are differences of opinion amongst those ancient seers. Like

> the house for father being 10th in the north and 9th in the south, to take

> the case

>

> we started with. So one half of India must have had false readings re.

> father all through the centuries! Or is it possible to study this more

> intensely and arrive at a solution? I think both houses will probably

> apply from different points of view. Using western sidereal

> interpretations I have often found that the general description and

> character of the 10th house applied to the parent who dominated at home -

> either father or mother!

 

RATH: This is a white lie spread by some astrologers to hide their ignorance

and to pull down Dr Raman. I think more of a Political move. The net result

is that Jyotish has another controversy. North India is not as foolish as

this rumor makes it to look. I know of some excellent astrologers out here.

Almost all persons I know use the ninth house. Surprisingly, this is not a

controversy in India and the ninth house for father is generally accepted.

Some tantriks (with very little knowledge of Jyotish) use the tenth house

and since Tantriks are powerful in Delhi, the impression has got around that

their opinion about the 10th house ruling father is North Indian Astrology.

I don't blame them as most Tantra (in todays context 0f Delhi) is centered

around Sex and the 7th house argument brings the tenth house for Father.

 

> In ancient times patterns were very much ruled by social custom, the wife

> was always subordinate - except in Kerala! But today things are different

> and interpretation has to adapted. If danger from elephants is shown,

> today we think of a lorry. This principle applies also to persons, I

> think.

 

RATH: ADI SANKARA WAS ORIGINALLY FROM KERALA.

 

> Also say a father has three sons and his relationship with them is varied,

> very

>

> loving with one, neutral with another and inimical with the third, one can

> say "your relationship with your sons will be mixed!", or try to find out

> exactly how. This means research.

 

RATH: Just read my book. I cannot think of making such statements like "your

relationship with your sons will be mixed!". If Lord of the Specific Child

in the Saptamsa is in Kendra to the lord of Lagna, the child will be dutiful

(Paraspara Karaka). Relationships can also be studies by the Panchada

sambandha between the Lord of saptamsa Lagna and the Lord of the specific

child.

 

> I still feel that the old texts say too little about female horoscopes!

 

RATH: In 25 Years I have yet to digest all that they say. This is definitely

not little.

 

> I would very much like to read your books. Can you send them to me by

> post? And

>

> tell me how to pay - the easiest is for my friend in Bombay to send you a

> cheque.

RATH: Please goto the webpages of JDR Venture.

 

Best Wishes,

Sanjay Rath

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