Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Vyam Vyasaadevaaya Namah Dear Lakshmi, Maharishi Parasara states that the 2,4,5,8,9 & 12th from the Moolatrikona sign, as well as the lord of the exaltation sign are friends. Hence i can only assume that the logic applies both ways. The Cap is the 2nd from Sag, and is also the debilitation sign of Jupiter. Truth always victors, yet you are putting another twist to this.. watch: There are 2 soccer teams playing against each other. One is yellow and the other grey. Now they are both partaking in the activity of soccer, yet 1 will win. Similarly Mars is the activity, and the winner maybe anyone of the teams.. Say Jupiter rules the yellow team.. this is relative. I am writing an article where i also deal shortly with Sat and Asat. It all comes down to 2 planets. Brihaspati and Aditya. Brihaspati is leading the native towards Aditya, which is Satya. Now Brihaspati shows the road to Satya, and its worst enemy is Rahu! Hence Rahu tends to divert the person away from the spiritual learning by attraction to Bhoga. This Bhoga then eclipses the Sun causing blindness. But even some great blind sages exist, so this can't be completely right. Saturn is the dire enemy of the Sun, and hence is exactly opposite Satya. When Saturn is in Prasna Lagna, we immedietely can see that the client is lying! When Rahu does the same, the client is insincere and wavoring in their ways. Not necessarily lying. Hence Rahu diverts the person on the wrong path, yet Saturn causes the Asat. As for the Sisumara Chakra. I believe its represented as a dolphin(sisumara)? in which context is it a crockodile? Do you remember the story of Gajendra being stuck in the lake, due to a crockodile holding him there? You seem full of knowledge lately, so let me question you: Abhijit Nakshetra is in Capricorn, and is considered very spiritual, can you explain why? Let alone answer why the Rishis have termed Cap as the debilitation sign of Jup - the 5th degree to be exact? Best wishes, Visti. Visti: Priests do not create cunning plans. Jupiter is very enimical to Saturn, as Saturn lords the 3rd and debilitation sign from Jupiters Moolatrikona - Sag. Lakshmi: Cunning is a strong word. For example, you know all about virus attacks etc and if you have not kept the Anti-virus software updated to fight the latest viruses, your system will crash. Now tell me, keeping track of the latest virus definitions and taking preventive measures to protect your system is wisdom or cunning? And, Jupiter is certainly not foolish. Cunningness is as much a facet of Intelligence as wisdom is, but here the face is the warped one of Rahu and not Jupiter. Saturn also rules the 2nd house from Jupiter’s moolatrikona and that makes him Jupiter’s friend! So, the sum total of these relationships is that Jupiter is neutral to Saturn and not inimical. Visti: Yes i know the story. Jupiter is also naturally enimical towards Mercury, yet gets exalted in Moons rasi - The cause of his humiliation?! This principle about Moon and Buddha is also the basis of the Moon-Mercury Yoga which Jaimini gives. Lakshmi: Jupiter gets exalted in 4th house for various reasons, I think. It’s the sukha sthana, it’s the vidya sthana, and Jupiter the prime benefic loves this place. Further, it’s the house of the mother and Jupiter as kutumba karaka values these bonds, hence you see him liking Mars & Moon, the sthira matri karakas and the sthira Pitri karakas, namely Sun and Venus(who, though enemy, is still exalted in Jupiter’s own house). Maatri devo bhava, Pitri devo bhava, Aacharya devo bhava….. Visti: Yes why not, i agree that Jupiter aspects the 3rd house from itself.. it may not be a very powerful aspect but its there. But Saturn is NOT borrowing Jupiters aspect. Jupiter has its own. Saturn has a different purpose for its aspect, and is part of the reason that we sometimes see people living upto 100 years, and etc. Saturn is a great punisher and will make the person life long, yet through much sorrow.. This is because Saturn doesn't think twice before correcting you!. i learnt this early. Hence Saturns Full Dristi on various houses is definitely felt much stronger. More bellow. Lakshmi: Why I was saying that 3rd aspect of Saturn is like that of debilitated Jupiter is that Jupiter hates this controlling business. He’s aakasa tattwa, the Free spirit that trustingly wafts through the vast universe, but due to exigencies imposed by his role, he’s forced to monitor the affairs of the 3rd house. So, here it’s not the smiling Jupiter who aspects the 5th & 9th houses, but the sullen one (Saturn). Since, 3rd house gives rise to 5th house (progeny) and without 3rd house, there can’t be 4th, 5th or 9th houses (all of them Jupiter’s favourite places)..Jupiter has more interest in the 3rd than Saturn, whose interest in 3H could be because it’s 8th from the 8th house. Visti: At present you seem to be assigning planets to certain aspects, which is wrong, because all planets have their own desires. More about Saturn bellow. Lakshmi:I am only trying to channel my thoughts towards some seemingly logical conclusions. I could be wrong and I could be right, that’s immaterial. What matters is the continuing quest for the Truth. Visti: Yet in the end all battles are faught by Mars, not Jupiter, Mercury or any other graha. Yes Mars causes the debilitation of the Moon. (In denmark using the persons name in the middle of a conversation is degrading, is it the same in India?) Lakshmi: Oh, is that so? I am sorry if I have offended you by my style of addressing, but I don’t think that such an address is deemed an insult in India, atleast in my part of the country. Anyway I respect your sentiments and will take care not to repeat the error. It’s nice that I can learn not only astrology, but also etiquette from you. I think the mother of all battles, kurukshetra was won by Jupiter and not Mars as was the Ramayana war. It was just one Krishna, unarmed except for Bhagavadgita, the Maha Vaakya, on the Pandavas’ side while the Kauravas had massive military might, yet who won the war? And continues to win even after yugas have elapsed? In Ramayana too, it was the organized strength of Ravana’s Asura warlords Vs the motley crowd of Nara & Vaanara…yet who won? Why all these, between Skandha and Ganesh, when there was a clash for Vighnaadhipatya, who won the battle? Mars or Jupiter? Between the saattwik Vasistha+Kaamadhenu combine and Raja Vishwamitra, who won the battle? Talking about bloodless battles reminds me of Buddha, Jesus Christ, Gandhiji, Nelson Mandela, whose principled beliefs made those battles they fought more enduring and memorable than the other routine bloodbaths. Please don’t underestimate the power of Dharma and Truth. They are any day stronger and more abiding than physical strength and it’s always Satyameva Jayate…never anything else. Visti: Vamana remained the same age, yet he expanded himself beyond the 3 worlds. As for Vidya Karaka - Jupiter is only for higher education, otherwise its Mercury. Saturn as i've indicated before, IF STRONG, confers long life for the sake of punishing the person very harshly throughout life, so they can 'learn the hard way'. Just as Koorma Avatara carried the whole during the difficult and fatal churning of the oceans, similarly Saturn will carry you through the difficult periods of life.. there will be poisons, asuras and a whole ammount of other stuff put in there, but in the end the Amrita comes. Lakshmi: Yes, I agree that Saturn is patience and for reaching Amrita, Saburi (patience) is as vital as Shraddha (dedication). And, when I said “vidya” I never meant the formal education or the multiple degrees..I only meant that vidya which can lead to Him. Nothing else for me is vidya. Why is “age” coming into play? That’s only mundane growth. One can be very young and enlightened…Sankaracharya, Vivekananda..one can go on. Also Sattwa guna, which is represented by Vishnu, marks the major period of growth from birth to death. Hence, “growth” is an area controlled by Saatwik planets and not Rajasik or Tamasik planets, which mainly indicate birth and death. Visti: Jupiter represents the guidance that leads to truth(satya), and repeatedly when you look at various schemes of Sambandha between Saturn and Jupiter, Jupiter invariably hates Saturn.. Why is this? Saturn represents Asat. The astrological reason is due to Saturns strong enimity towards the Sun, which represents Satya(truth). This Asat caused Moon to repeatedly lie about giving back Tara to Brihaspati and also Tara lied about the child, until it was visible and born. Jupiter has no enimity towards any children nor the conception of the same, as this is necessary to bring children and hence followers, which Jupiter finds so dearly. He tried very hard to claim Buddha as his son. This Asat causes the debilitation of Jupiter and hence is also the reason for the very low memory of those in Kali Yuga, as Capricorn represents the current Yuga, whilst Aries, Cancer and Libra represent; Satya/Krta, Trta & Dwapara Yugas respectively. Hence Asat causes the humiliation of Jupiter, and not the conception of children. Actually Jupiter is deemed quite strong in Gemini and Virgo. Lakshmi: I have only one thing to say here, that ignorance is no sin and for the discerning, Darkness can be as pure as Light. Saturn, being Tamas indicates only ignorance, humility, an immense capacity to suffer, and an inertness that fails to lift itself to Light. He’s not Asat, as you have stated. Sin is seeming to know all and falseness. That’s Asat...Rahu. Talking about Capricorn, may I quote from the first sloka of Part-II, Chapter 9 of Vishnupurana, which I am sure you’ve read, Thaaraamayam Bhagavathah Simsumaaraakrithi Prabhoh Diviroopam Hareryasthu thasyapricchesthithoDhruvah …the resplendent (jyotirmaya) simsumara chakra, represented by a crocodile (Makara) holds the zodiac / time cycle in place and it regulates the movements of planets, along with Dhruva, who sits in the tail of the Makara. And at the heart of this gigantic chakra is Narayana himself, the Fulcrum of the Universe. Now, do you still call this Asat? And, do you see why I said Capricorn forms the root of all aspects, all karma? Regards, Lakshmi P.S: I will try to dig out Narasimha Guru's mail today. 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Guest guest Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Om Gurave Namah Namaste Visti, Visti: Maharishi Parasara states that the 2,4,5,8,9 & 12th from the Moolatrikona sign, as well as the lord of the exaltation sign are friends. Hence i can only assume that the logic applies both ways. The Cap is the 2nd from Sag, and is also the debilitation sign of Jupiter. Lakshmi: Maharishi Parasara also states that 3,6,7,10,11 from a moolatrikona indicate enemies and Mercury, by virtue of owning 7 & 10 houses from Jupiter’s moolatrikona (which are incidentally the exaltation and moolatrikona signs of Rahu) becomes Jupiter’s enemy, along with Venus. And, now please do tell me which planetary combination is better qualified to debilitate Jupiter, Neutral Saturn + Friend Mars or Enemy Mercury + Worst Enemy Rahu? Visti: Truth always victors, yet you are putting another twist to this.. watch: There are 2 soccer teams playing against each other. One is yellow and the other grey. Now they are both partaking in the activity of soccer, yet 1 will win. Similarly Mars is the activity, and the winner maybe anyone of the teams.. Say Jupiter rules the yellow team.. this is relative. Lakshmi: That’s right, Mars represents action and activity. But all activities are not the same and neither are all actions that take place within an activity. Are they? Visti: I am writing an article where i also deal shortly with Sat and Asat. It all comes down to 2 planets. Brihaspati and Aditya. Brihaspati is leading the native towards Aditya, which is Satya. Now Brihaspati shows the road to Satya, and its worst enemy is Rahu! Hence Rahu tends to divert the person away from the spiritual learning by attraction to Bhoga. This Bhoga then eclipses the Sun causing blindness. But even some great blind sages exist, so this can't be completely right. Saturn is the dire enemy of the Sun, and hence is exactly opposite Satya. When Saturn is in Prasna Lagna, we immedietely can see that the client is lying! When Rahu does the same, the client is insincere and wavoring in their ways. Not necessarily lying. Hence Rahu diverts the person on the wrong path, yet Saturn causes the Asat. Lakshmi: You yourself have stated that Sun is Satya and Saturn being Surya Putra, carries the same “beeja” or seed of Satya within him. Think of all those Mahapurushas celebrated for their commitment to Truth like Sri Rama, Dharma Raja, Sibi..could be Harishchandra too… who were supposed to have exalted Saturn in their charts and I presume “exaltation” enhances natural traits and in no way cancels them. Despite all these venerable associations, is Saturn still Asat? Saturn (Night) comes only after Sun the Day exits and Sun also comes only after Saturn exits. Mutual respect and gentleness characterize this unfaltering daily rhythm. They are like two sides of a coin, the primordial priciple of duality, and even if one side is defaced / mutilated the other side or the coin will not have any value. Please note that with Saturn there’s no forcible imposition of darkness / eclipsing of the Sun during the day, like in the case of Rahu. There’s only a trusting patience till his inevitable turn comes. BTW, I look forward to reading your article very much. Visti: As for the Sisumara Chakra. I believe its represented as a dolphin(sisumara)? in which context is it a crockodile? Do you remember the story of Gajendra being stuck in the lake, due to a crockodile holding him there? Lakshmi: Dolphin? How sweet! But, I referred to two Telugu translations of Vishnupurana done by two different reputed scholars (Kalluri Venkata Subrahmanya Deekshitulu & Yelchuri Muralidhara Rao), and referred to a Sanskrit-Telugu Dictionary (by Vetsa Venkata Seshayya) and everywhere “Simsumaara” is translated as Crocodile. I haven’t read the translation of Wilson, is the word translated as Dolphin there? And, otherwise also, how do you perceive the Principle of Karma, identified as it is with personalities like Yama and Saturn? Is it benevolent and playful like a Dolphin or inexorable and implacable like a crocodile? Whose grip will be more tough and unrelenting...the Dolphin’s or the Crocodile’s? I think the answer is obvious. Do you think the Matsyaavatara could be a Dolphin? Talking about Crocodile, pulling something down is natural to it. Remember Capricorn is the earth sign and gravitational pull is it’s natural property. Yes, the crocodile did pull Gajendra down and held him, like the accumulated negative karma over a long period debilitates Dharma and holds it down. But remember what Sri Krishna promised in Bhagavadgita? Yada yadahi dharmasya glaanirbhavathi bhaarathah…whenever Dharma is pulled down, He will come to rid the earth of the paapa and adharma and rescue dharma. And, the Lord always lived upto his promise. The story of how Adi Sankaracharya persuaded his mother to allow him to take Sannyasa also revolves around a crocodile and here too it’s identified with karma and bhava bandha. The crocodile is the “vaahana” of Ganga, the moksha karani, who sprung from the feet of Mahavishnu…follows that whoever takes refuge at the Lord’s feet will overcome the stranglehold of karma and gain moksha. Just look at the consistency of thought! Visti: You seem full of knowledge lately, so let me question you: Abhijit Nakshetra is in Capricorn, and is considered very spiritual, can you explain why? Let alone answer why the Rishis have termed Cap as the debilitation sign of Jup - the 5th degree to be exact? Lakshmi: With Jupiter exalted and Bhaadrapada being the birth month of Ganesha and Vaamana, it’s the high season of knowledge and no wonder all of us are pleasantly affected. Do you know that the word Bhaadrapada also means “moving towards Mother / moving towards all that is auspicious/good?” (4th house?), since Mother is called Bhadraa as derived from Bhadrah (Shiva..Dakshinamoorthy). And She’s the Sri Vidya… Abhijit Nakshatra (Pole star-Dhruva?), lorded by Maha Vishnu (In Bhagavadgita the Lord says that among Nakshatras He’s Abhijit), starts from the 6th degree (approximate) of Capricorn and goes on to Sravana 1st pada, I think. Jupiter is supposed to be debilitated in 5th degree of Capricorn (in Uttaraashadha, the Nakshatra of Sun!) and what follows is the advent of Lord as Abhijit, the undefeated…Gajendra moksha re-enacted? Incidentally Lord Vaamana and Lord Venkateswara (Balaji of Tirupati) are also said to have incarnated in Abhijit lagna. Siva killed the tripuraasura also in the Abhijit lagna with Naarayanaasthra. Abhijit lagna is spiritual because at this time the Sun is at the highest point and hence the soul is nearest to or synonymous with Narayana, and personifies the power and promise of Vishnu to destroy the demons and protect the World. What do you think of Aardra being the debilitation point of Jupiter, since it is followed by Punarvasu, the nakshatra of Sri Rama? Regards, Lakshmi P.S: Visti, thanks for every thing. News - Today's headlines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 Vyam Vyaasadevaaya Namah Dear Lakshmi Lakshmi: Maharishi Parasara also states that 3,6,7,10,11 from a moolatrikona indicate enemies and Mercury, by virtue of owning 7 & 10 houses from Jupiter’s moolatrikona (which are incidentally the exaltation and moolatrikona signs of Rahu) becomes Jupiter’s enemy, along with Venus. And, now please do tell me which planetary combination is better qualified to debilitate Jupiter, Neutral Saturn + Friend Mars or Enemy Mercury + Worst Enemy Rahu Lakshmi: That’s right, Mars represents action and activity. But all activities are not the same and neither are all actions that take place within an activity. Are they? Visti: No, i meant that Mars represents the action of fighting. There are many other types of actions, signified by other grahas. The main object of this statement was to prove that the winner or triumfant of an action is relative. Lakshmi: You yourself have stated that Sun is Satya and Saturn being Surya Putra, carries the same “beeja” or seed of Satya within him. Think of all those Mahapurushas celebrated for their commitment to Truth like Sri Rama, Dharma Raja, Sibi..could be Harishchandra too… who were supposed to have exalted Saturn in their charts and I presume “exaltation” enhances natural traits and in no way cancel s them. Despite all these venerable associations, is Saturn still Asat? Visti: Saturn was the Son of Chaya the Shadow of Adityas wife.. Saturn was born due to Asat. In Sri Ramas chart Saturn is ineffective of producing Maha Purusha Yoga. Otherwise he would never have been exhiled.. If you read the archives of this list, which stretch back to the begining of SJVC, then you will know this. Mahapurusha yogas get canceled if the grahas are retro. When Saturn gets exalted in the sign of the scales, it gets its greatest enjoyment of punishing ALL those who Sin, hence becoming Dharma Raja (there are definitely no lies here thou), and the cause of our rebirth. Lakshmi: Dolphin? How sweet! But, I referred to two Telugu translations of Vishnupurana done by two different reputed scholars (Kalluri Venkata Subrahmanya Deekshitulu & Yelchuri Muralidhara Rao), and referred to a Sanskrit-Telugu Dictionary (by Vetsa Venkata Seshayya) and everywhere “Simsumaara” is translated as Crocodile. I haven’t read the translation of Wilson, is the word translated as Dolphin there? Visti: The translation i'm reading is by the International Gita soceity, it can be found at: www.srimadbhagavatam.org Look in the treasury, theres also a sanskrit version, wherein the exact words are given i Canto 5 Chapter 23 Line 4: "izzumarSy " This is transliterated as: þiþum˜rasya. And, otherwise also, how do you perceive the Principle of Karma, identified as it is with personalities like Yama and Saturn? Is it benevolent and playful like a Dolphin or inexorable and implacable like a crocodile? Whose grip will be more tough and unrelenting...the Dolphin’s or the Crocodile’s? I think the answer is obvious. Visti: Do good and you will live good.. be flexible. Do you think the Matsyaavatara could be a Dolphin? Visti: oh could be.. i had an idea that i wanted to become a marine biologist at some point, but my attention wasn't directed towards the fish =). Talking about Crocodile, pulling something down is natural to it. Remember Capricorn is the earth sign and gravitational pull is it’s natural property. Yes, the crocodile did pull Gajendra down and held him, like the accumulated negative karma over a long period debilitates Dharma and holds it down. But remember what Sri Krishna promised in Bhagavadgita? Yada yadahi dharmasya glaanirbhavathi bhaarathah…whenever Dharma is pulled down, He will come to rid the earth of the paapa and adharma and rescue dharma. And, the Lord always lived upto his promise. The story of how Adi Sankaracharya persuaded his mother to allow him to take Sannyasa also revolves around a crocodile and here too it’s identified with karma and bhava bandha. The crocodile is the “vaahana” of Ganga, the moksha karani, who sprung from the feet of Mahavishnu…follows that whoever takes refuge at the Lord’s feet will overcome the stranglehold of karma and gain moksha. Just look at the consistency of thought! Visti: The crockodile would only be the Vaahana(bringer), in case of Karma Yogis. See Sankaracharyas path was not that of a Karma Yogi, hence the entaglement in social lifes norms would only take him away from his calling, hence the Crockodile grabbing his foot and pulling him further into the lake. He was saved by his Mothers(moon) change of mind, hence causing the Neecha Banga of Jupiter and lifting him to great heights. Lakshmi: With Jupiter exalted and Bhaadrapada being the birth month of Ganesha and Vaamana, it’s the high season of knowledge and no wonder all of us are pleasantly affected. Do you know that the word Bhaadrapada also means “moving towards Mother / moving towards all that is auspicious/good?” (4th house?), since Mother is called Bhadraa as derived from Bhadrah (Shiva..Dakshinamoorthy). And She’s the Sri Vidya… Visti: Acording to Puranas, also Krishna was born during Bhadrapada, during Krishna Astami.. however his was using the Suklanta approach to months. Abhijit Nakshatra (Pole star-Dhruva?), lorded by Maha Vishnu (In Bhagavadgita the Lord says that among Nakshatras He’s Abhijit), starts from the 6th degree (approximate) of Capricorn and goes on to Sravana 1st pada, I think. Jupiter is supposed to be debilitated in 5th degree of Capricorn (in Uttaraashadha, the Nakshatra of Sun!) and what follows is the advent of Lord as Abhijit, the undefeated…Gajendra moksha re-enacted? Incidentally Lord Vaamana and Lord Venkateswara (Balaji of Tirupati) are also said to have incarnated in Abhijit lagna. Siva killed the tripuraasura also in the Abhijit lagna with Naarayanaasthra. Abhijit lagna is spiritual because at this time the Sun is at the highest point and hence the soul is nearest to or synonymous with Narayana, and personifies the power and promise of Vishnu to destroy the demons and protect the World. What do you think of Aardra being the debilitation point of Jupiter, since it is followed by Punarvasu, the nakshatra of Sri Rama? Visti: You didn't answer why the 5th degree of Capricorn(Uttara Ashada 2nd Pada) is the debilitation point of Jupiter. Best wishes, Visti. p.s. Your welcome and same to you. Regards, Lakshmi P.S: Visti, thanks for every thing. 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Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 Aum Namah Shivaya Dear Visti and Lakshmi, Just a quick pointer. Simsumara/Sisumara is definetely not a crocodile. As far as my knowledge goes, it is an aquatic mammal more like a porpoise. That is what the traditional idea has been, not a crocodile. Moreover the Aswins (the presiding deities of Aswini nakshatra- Alpha and Beta Aries) are also described as having a vehicle drawn by the Bull and Simsumara. Consult any star atlas and you will find that in front of Aries, we have the Bull (Taurus) and the constellation Cetus, the whale on the other side. I have in fact seen old pictures of Simsumara, where it looks a bit like a porpoise, but not like a crocodile. And for your information, a porpoise is any of the six species of small whales. So simsumara being translated as a dolphin gets 70% marks while crocodile gets zero%! Seriously speaking however,though porpoise is related to the dolphin, it is actually a **whale. Moreover the constellation Cetus is also accepted generally as a whale. One final observation. Quite often, the forms of gods, deities, their vahanas, their dwajas (banner/flag) have their basis in astronomical facts/observations. That is why I referred to Aswinis. As far as the Matsyavatara is concerned better leave it as Piscean in nature as is accepted. There is no scope for a doubt or ambiguity here. Hope I am not intruding into your discussion. It may be a small thing, but you know the form and essence are often linked and hence this pointer. Regards, Satya > > Lakshmi: Dolphin? How sweet! But, I referred to two Telugu translations of Vishnupurana done by two different reputed scholars (Kalluri Venkata Subrahmanya Deekshitulu & Yelchuri Muralidhara Rao), and referred to a Sanskrit-Telugu Dictionary (by Vetsa Venkata Seshayya) and everywhere "Simsumaara" is translated as Crocodile. I haven't read the translation of Wilson, is the word translated as Dolphin there? > > > > Visti: The translation i'm reading is by the International Gita soceity, it can be found at: www.srimadbhagavatam.org Look in the treasury, theres also a sanskrit version, wherein the exact words are given i Canto 5 Chapter 23 Line 4: "izzumarSy " This is transliterated as: þiþum~rasya. > > > > And, otherwise also, how do you perceive the Principle of Karma, identified as it is with personalities like Yama and Saturn? Is it benevolent and playful like a Dolphin or inexorable and implacable like a crocodile? Whose grip will be more tough and unrelenting...the Dolphin's or the Crocodile's? I think the answer is obvious. > > > > Visti: Do good and you will live good.. be flexible. > > > > Do you think the Matsyaavatara could be a Dolphin? > > > > Visti: oh could be.. i had an idea that i wanted to become a marine biologist at some point, but my attention wasn't directed towards the fish =). > > > > Talking about Crocodile, pulling something down is natural to it. Remember Capricorn is the earth sign and gravitational pull is it's natural property. > > > > Yes, the crocodile did pull Gajendra down and held him, like the accumulated negative karma over a long period debilitates Dharma and holds it down. But remember what Sri Krishna promised in Bhagavadgita? Yada yadahi dharmasya glaanirbhavathi bhaarathah.whenever Dharma is pulled down, He will come to rid the earth of the paapa and adharma and rescue dharma. And, the Lord always lived upto his promise. > > > > The story of how Adi Sankaracharya persuaded his mother to allow him to take Sannyasa also revolves around a crocodile and here too it's identified with karma and bhava bandha. > > > > The crocodile is the "vaahana" of Ganga, the moksha karani, who sprung from the feet of Mahavishnu.follows that whoever takes refuge at the Lord's feet will overcome the stranglehold of karma and gain moksha. Just look at the consistency of thought! > > > > Visti: The crockodile would only be the Vaahana(bringer), in case of Karma Yogis. See Sankaracharyas path was not that of a Karma Yogi, hence the entaglement in social lifes norms would only take him away from his calling, hence the Crockodile grabbing his foot and pulling him further into the lake. He was saved by his Mothers(moon) change of mind, hence causing the Neecha Banga of Jupiter and lifting him to great heights. > > > > Lakshmi: With Jupiter exalted and Bhaadrapada being the birth month of Ganesha and Vaamana, it's the high season of knowledge and no wonder all of us are pleasantly affected. Do you know that the word Bhaadrapada also means "moving towards Mother / moving towards all that is auspicious/good?" (4th house?), since Mother is called Bhadraa as derived from Bhadrah (Shiva..Dakshinamoorthy). And She's the Sri Vidya. > > > > Visti: Acording to Puranas, also Krishna was born during Bhadrapada, during Krishna Astami.. however his was using the Suklanta approach to months. > > > > Abhijit Nakshatra (Pole star-Dhruva?), lorded by Maha Vishnu (In Bhagavadgita the Lord says that among Nakshatras He's Abhijit), starts from the 6th degree (approximate) of Capricorn and goes on to Sravana 1st pada, I think. Jupiter is supposed to be debilitated in 5th degree of Capricorn (in Uttaraashadha, the Nakshatra of Sun!) and what follows is the advent of Lord as Abhijit, the undefeated.Gajendra moksha re-enacted? > > > > Incidentally Lord Vaamana and Lord Venkateswara (Balaji of Tirupati) are also said to have incarnated in Abhijit lagna. Siva killed the tripuraasura also in the Abhijit lagna with Naarayanaasthra. Abhijit lagna is spiritual because at this time the Sun is at the highest point and hence the soul is nearest to or synonymous with Narayana, and personifies the power and promise of Vishnu to destroy the demons and protect the World. > > > > What do you think of Aardra being the debilitation point of Jupiter, since it is followed by Punarvasu, the nakshatra of Sri Rama? > > > > Visti: You didn't answer why the 5th degree of Capricorn(Uttara Ashada 2nd Pada) is the debilitation point of Jupiter. > > > > Best wishes, Visti. > > p.s. Your welcome and same to you. > > > > > > Regards, > > Lakshmi > > > > P.S: Visti, thanks for every thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 Om Gurave Namah Namaste Visti, Mars does represent the basic fighting ability..but the direction in which this ability is manifested also makes a lot of difference, I think. For example, Viswamitra, the most martian of all Maharishis, used his great tapo-shakti to create an alternate swarga, the Trisanku swarga, perhaps the first virtual reality, to prove a point to Devas. But what happened? When he sent up Trisanku "bodily" to this heaven, which rivaled or even bettered the real swarga in all ways, Trisanku turned upside down there and continued to remain so. Does this not indicate a subversion of original purpose of intellect? Anyway this entire episode brought Viswamitra both admiration and ridicule. Because in this instance his ornate creativity was born out of pique, out of ego, and out of a desire to exalt himself, and is against Dharma, it had not fetched him the accolades that it should. Viswamitra is also the creator of the most powerful and sacred mantra, the Gayatri Mantra. Here, he eulogises & exalts the Sun, the Eternal Energy, like a true Mars. The Gayatri mantra initiation marks the beginning of a new birth, of a higher awareness and imbuing of the individual soul with cosmic energy and empowers one to fight evil. Here Viswamitra's creativity was used to give the world something simple yet exquisite and priceless. Millions of people remember him every day with gratitude and derive benefit from this creation. See how the same fighting energy used for different purposes can give different results? Visti, are we talking about the same word here? You have been repeatedly saying "Sisumaarah" (I thought it was a typo) whereas I was talking about "Simsumaarah". I checked up the dictionary again and the word "SiSukah" is translated as both a crocodile and a fish. But "SimSumaarah" carried only one meaning, that of a crocodile. BTW, have you read the description of SimSumaara chakra in Bhagavatham? It says that the constellations of Abhijit and Uttarashadha form the nostrils of the Simsumaara, and Sravana and Poorvashaadhas form the eyes etc…the head is lower than the tail … look how the face starts from the conjunction of Dhanus & Makara, and both are pristodaya rasis. Don't you think that our discussion over the last few days is increasingly pointing to Capricorn-Cancer axis as crux of karma-rebirth? The beginning of Uttarayana- Dakshinaayana transits of Sun the Soul also evidence this as does the fact that both Saturn and Moon get exalted in Venusian signs! Talking about Saturn's birth, I agree that it started with deception, but only from Chaya..Surya was ignorant. Ethically, it's very unlike the union of Chandra and Tara, and Chaya is elevated to the status of and worshipped as wife of Surya. Ofcourse Surya may not love her like he does Usha, which is apparent in the birth of Ashwini Devatas, who are identified with compassion and healing. But, Surya is that Agni, that Truth by touching which all become chaste. Now, Chaya not only touched it but also became a part of that Agni. Could she continue to remain impure? Visti, Gold is precious, but to strengthen gold, to make it accessible & acceptable to common people, one has to mix copper with the gold. That debasement is necessary if a lay man is to experience and understand the value of gold. Similarly, the sattwa and objectivity of Surya needs to be alloyed with the tamas and subjectivity of Chaya to bring forth the tough Saturn, so that people are forced to struggle, forced to make choices, forced to commit karma and ultimately forced into Realisation of Narayana, the Only Truth. Further, Sri Rama is a Mahapurusha, may not be a Sasa mahapurusha, but can you discount the influence of such strong Saturn on his thinking? Mars gives physical prowess, but the mental strength that can withstand all pressures and provocations and stand firm against all odds for one's principles comes from Saturn alone. Isn't Jupiter debilitated in the 5th degree of Capricorn or 3rd pada of Uttarashadha? 3rd pada indicates the desire of the soul as "kaama" or the soul caught in the bhoga maarga and ignorance (symbolic of the circumstances leading to Saturn's conception). Jupiter is naturally as unhappy with the situation as he's in 3H. Regards, Lakshmi P.S: Yesterday we performed Seetha Rama Kalyanam at the temple built by my cousin brother. It was a wonderful experience, and perhaps when you all come to Hyderabad, we can recapture it, ofcourse, time permitting. sjvc, "Visti Larsen" <vishnu@l...> wrote: > Vyam Vyaasadevaaya Namah > > > -- ------------ > > > Dear Lakshmi > > > > Lakshmi: Maharishi Parasara also states that 3,6,7,10,11 from a moolatrikona indicate enemies and Mercury, by virtue of owning 7 & 10 houses from Jupiter's moolatrikona (which are incidentally the exaltation and moolatrikona signs of Rahu) becomes Jupiter's enemy, along with Venus. And, now please do tell me which planetary combination is better qualified to debilitate Jupiter, Neutral Saturn + Friend Mars or Enemy Mercury + Worst Enemy Rahu > > > > Lakshmi: That's right, Mars represents action and activity. But all activities are not the same and neither are all actions that take place within an activity. Are they? > > > > Visti: No, i meant that Mars represents the action of fighting. There are many other types of actions, signified by other grahas. The main object of this statement was to prove that the winner or triumfant of an action is relative. > > > > Lakshmi: You yourself have stated that Sun is Satya and Saturn being Surya Putra, carries the same "beeja" or seed of Satya within him. Think of all those Mahapurushas celebrated for their commitment to Truth like Sri Rama, Dharma Raja, Sibi..could be Harishchandra too. who were supposed to have exalted Saturn in their charts and I presume "exaltation" enhances natural traits and in no way cancel s them. Despite all these venerable associations, is Saturn still Asat? > > > > Visti: Saturn was the Son of Chaya the Shadow of Adityas wife.. Saturn was born due to Asat. > > In Sri Ramas chart Saturn is ineffective of producing Maha Purusha Yoga. Otherwise he would never have been exhiled.. If you read the archives of this list, which stretch back to the begining of SJVC, then you will know this. Mahapurusha yogas get canceled if the grahas are retro. > > When Saturn gets exalted in the sign of the scales, it gets its greatest enjoyment of punishing ALL those who Sin, hence becoming Dharma Raja (there are definitely no lies here thou), and the cause of our rebirth. > > > > Lakshmi: Dolphin? How sweet! But, I referred to two Telugu translations of Vishnupurana done by two different reputed scholars (Kalluri Venkata Subrahmanya Deekshitulu & Yelchuri Muralidhara Rao), and referred to a Sanskrit-Telugu Dictionary (by Vetsa Venkata Seshayya) and everywhere "Simsumaara" is translated as Crocodile. I haven't read the translation of Wilson, is the word translated as Dolphin there? > > > > Visti: The translation i'm reading is by the International Gita soceity, it can be found at: www.srimadbhagavatam.org Look in the treasury, theres also a sanskrit version, wherein the exact words are given i Canto 5 Chapter 23 Line 4: "izzumarSy " This is transliterated as: þiþum~rasya. > > > > And, otherwise also, how do you perceive the Principle of Karma, identified as it is with personalities like Yama and Saturn? Is it benevolent and playful like a Dolphin or inexorable and implacable like a crocodile? Whose grip will be more tough and unrelenting...the Dolphin's or the Crocodile's? I think the answer is obvious. > > > > Visti: Do good and you will live good.. be flexible. > > > > Do you think the Matsyaavatara could be a Dolphin? > > > > Visti: oh could be.. i had an idea that i wanted to become a marine biologist at some point, but my attention wasn't directed towards the fish =). > > > > Talking about Crocodile, pulling something down is natural to it. Remember Capricorn is the earth sign and gravitational pull is it's natural property. > > > > Yes, the crocodile did pull Gajendra down and held him, like the accumulated negative karma over a long period debilitates Dharma and holds it down. But remember what Sri Krishna promised in Bhagavadgita? Yada yadahi dharmasya glaanirbhavathi bhaarathah.whenever Dharma is pulled down, He will come to rid the earth of the paapa and adharma and rescue dharma. And, the Lord always lived upto his promise. > > > > The story of how Adi Sankaracharya persuaded his mother to allow him to take Sannyasa also revolves around a crocodile and here too it's identified with karma and bhava bandha. > > > > The crocodile is the "vaahana" of Ganga, the moksha karani, who sprung from the feet of Mahavishnu.follows that whoever takes refuge at the Lord's feet will overcome the stranglehold of karma and gain moksha. Just look at the consistency of thought! > > > > Visti: The crockodile would only be the Vaahana(bringer), in case of Karma Yogis. See Sankaracharyas path was not that of a Karma Yogi, hence the entaglement in social lifes norms would only take him away from his calling, hence the Crockodile grabbing his foot and pulling him further into the lake. He was saved by his Mothers(moon) change of mind, hence causing the Neecha Banga of Jupiter and lifting him to great heights. > > > > Lakshmi: With Jupiter exalted and Bhaadrapada being the birth month of Ganesha and Vaamana, it's the high season of knowledge and no wonder all of us are pleasantly affected. Do you know that the word Bhaadrapada also means "moving towards Mother / moving towards all that is auspicious/good?" (4th house?), since Mother is called Bhadraa as derived from Bhadrah (Shiva..Dakshinamoorthy). And She's the Sri Vidya. > > > > Visti: Acording to Puranas, also Krishna was born during Bhadrapada, during Krishna Astami.. however his was using the Suklanta approach to months. > > > > Abhijit Nakshatra (Pole star-Dhruva?), lorded by Maha Vishnu (In Bhagavadgita the Lord says that among Nakshatras He's Abhijit), starts from the 6th degree (approximate) of Capricorn and goes on to Sravana 1st pada, I think. Jupiter is supposed to be debilitated in 5th degree of Capricorn (in Uttaraashadha, the Nakshatra of Sun!) and what follows is the advent of Lord as Abhijit, the undefeated.Gajendra moksha re-enacted? > > > > Incidentally Lord Vaamana and Lord Venkateswara (Balaji of Tirupati) are also said to have incarnated in Abhijit lagna. Siva killed the tripuraasura also in the Abhijit lagna with Naarayanaasthra. Abhijit lagna is spiritual because at this time the Sun is at the highest point and hence the soul is nearest to or synonymous with Narayana, and personifies the power and promise of Vishnu to destroy the demons and protect the World. > > > > What do you think of Aardra being the debilitation point of Jupiter, since it is followed by Punarvasu, the nakshatra of Sri Rama? > > > > Visti: You didn't answer why the 5th degree of Capricorn(Uttara Ashada 2nd Pada) is the debilitation point of Jupiter. > > > > Best wishes, Visti. > > p.s. Your welcome and same to you. > > > > > > Regards, > > Lakshmi > > > > P.S: Visti, thanks for every thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 Om Gurave Namah Namaste Dr. Satya, Thanks for your information / participation. We are all learning here, and trying to understand the intricacies of astrology and any amount of interaction only serves to enrich the discussions. Please refer to my latest answer in the same thread. The base of Simsumaara chakra seems to be definitely in Capricorn. And, the whale of Ashwini Kumaras could be Pisces, since it's the preceding sign of Aries, while Taurus the Bull is the succeeding sign. If possible, why don't you mail the photos of simsummara to the list? In the light of the recent discussions, I am sure all of us would like to see them. Regards, Lakshmi sjvc, "Dr Satya Prakash Choudhary" <satyaprakasika> wrote: > Aum Namah Shivaya > > Dear Visti and Lakshmi, > > Just a quick pointer. Simsumara/Sisumara is definetely not a > crocodile. As far as my knowledge goes, it is an aquatic mammal more > like a porpoise. That is what the traditional idea has been, not a > crocodile. Moreover the Aswins (the presiding deities of Aswini > nakshatra- Alpha and Beta Aries) are also described as having a > vehicle drawn by the Bull and Simsumara. Consult any star atlas and > you will find that in front of Aries, we have the Bull (Taurus) and > the constellation Cetus, the whale on the other side. I have in fact > seen old pictures of Simsumara, where it looks a bit like a porpoise, > but not like a crocodile. And for your information, a porpoise is any > of the six species of small whales. So simsumara being translated as > a dolphin gets 70% marks while crocodile gets zero%! Seriously > speaking however,though porpoise is related to the dolphin, it is > actually a **whale. Moreover the constellation Cetus is also accepted > generally as a whale. One final observation. Quite often, the forms > of gods, deities, their vahanas, their dwajas (banner/flag) have > their basis in astronomical facts/observations. That is why I > referred to Aswinis. As far as the Matsyavatara is concerned better > leave it as Piscean in nature as is accepted. There is no scope for a > doubt or ambiguity here. Hope I am not intruding into your > discussion. It may be a small thing, but you know the form and > essence are often linked and hence this pointer. > > Regards, > Satya > > > > > > > Lakshmi: Dolphin? How sweet! But, I referred to two Telugu > translations of Vishnupurana done by two different reputed scholars > (Kalluri Venkata Subrahmanya Deekshitulu & Yelchuri Muralidhara Rao), > and referred to a Sanskrit-Telugu Dictionary (by Vetsa Venkata > Seshayya) and everywhere "Simsumaara" is translated as Crocodile. I > haven't read the translation of Wilson, is the word translated as > Dolphin there? > > > > > > > > Visti: The translation i'm reading is by the International Gita > soceity, it can be found at: www.srimadbhagavatam.org Look in the > treasury, theres also a sanskrit version, wherein the exact words are > given i Canto 5 Chapter 23 Line 4: "izzumarSy " This is > transliterated as: þiþum~rasya. > > > > > > > > And, otherwise also, how do you perceive the Principle of Karma, > identified as it is with personalities like Yama and Saturn? Is it > benevolent and playful like a Dolphin or inexorable and implacable > like a crocodile? Whose grip will be more tough and unrelenting...the > Dolphin's or the Crocodile's? I think the answer is obvious. > > > > > > > > Visti: Do good and you will live good.. be flexible. > > > > > > > > Do you think the Matsyaavatara could be a Dolphin? > > > > > > > > Visti: oh could be.. i had an idea that i wanted to become a > marine biologist at some point, but my attention wasn't directed > towards the fish =). > > > > > > > > Talking about Crocodile, pulling something down is natural to it. > Remember Capricorn is the earth sign and gravitational pull is it's > natural property. > > > > > > > > Yes, the crocodile did pull Gajendra down and held him, like the > accumulated negative karma over a long period debilitates Dharma and > holds it down. But remember what Sri Krishna promised in > Bhagavadgita? Yada yadahi dharmasya glaanirbhavathi > bhaarathah.whenever Dharma is pulled down, He will come to rid the > earth of the paapa and adharma and rescue dharma. And, the Lord > always lived upto his promise. > > > > > > > > The story of how Adi Sankaracharya persuaded his mother to allow > him to take Sannyasa also revolves around a crocodile and here too > it's identified with karma and bhava bandha. > > > > > > > > The crocodile is the "vaahana" of Ganga, the moksha karani, who > sprung from the feet of Mahavishnu.follows that whoever takes refuge > at the Lord's feet will overcome the stranglehold of karma and gain > moksha. Just look at the consistency of thought! > > > > > > > > Visti: The crockodile would only be the Vaahana(bringer), in > case of Karma Yogis. See Sankaracharyas path was not that of a Karma > Yogi, hence the entaglement in social lifes norms would only take him > away from his calling, hence the Crockodile grabbing his foot and > pulling him further into the lake. He was saved by his Mothers (moon) > change of mind, hence causing the Neecha Banga of Jupiter and lifting > him to great heights. > > > > > > > > Lakshmi: With Jupiter exalted and Bhaadrapada being the birth month > of Ganesha and Vaamana, it's the high season of knowledge and no > wonder all of us are pleasantly affected. Do you know that the word > Bhaadrapada also means "moving towards Mother / moving towards all > that is auspicious/good?" (4th house?), since Mother is called > Bhadraa as derived from Bhadrah (Shiva..Dakshinamoorthy). And She's > the Sri Vidya. > > > > > > > > Visti: Acording to Puranas, also Krishna was born during > Bhadrapada, during Krishna Astami.. however his was using the > Suklanta approach to months. > > > > > > > > Abhijit Nakshatra (Pole star-Dhruva?), lorded by Maha Vishnu (In > Bhagavadgita the Lord says that among Nakshatras He's Abhijit), > starts from the 6th degree (approximate) of Capricorn and goes on to > Sravana 1st pada, I think. Jupiter is supposed to be debilitated in > 5th degree of Capricorn (in Uttaraashadha, the Nakshatra of Sun!) and > what follows is the advent of Lord as Abhijit, the > undefeated.Gajendra moksha re-enacted? > > > > > > > > Incidentally Lord Vaamana and Lord Venkateswara (Balaji of > Tirupati) are also said to have incarnated in Abhijit lagna. Siva > killed the tripuraasura also in the Abhijit lagna with > Naarayanaasthra. Abhijit lagna is spiritual because at this time the > Sun is at the highest point and hence the soul is nearest to or > synonymous with Narayana, and personifies the power and promise of > Vishnu to destroy the demons and protect the World. > > > > > > > > What do you think of Aardra being the debilitation point of > Jupiter, since it is followed by Punarvasu, the nakshatra of Sri > Rama? > > > > > > > > Visti: You didn't answer why the 5th degree of Capricorn (Uttara > Ashada 2nd Pada) is the debilitation point of Jupiter. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, Visti. > > > > p.s. Your welcome and same to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Lakshmi > > > > > > > > P.S: Visti, thanks for every thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Om Gurave Namah Namaste Visti and Dr. Satya, Just a fresh thought. Since the Simsumaara chakra holds the jyotirmandala together, it's like a gigantic magnetic field and magnetism is a property of the earth signs..whether you take 2H, Taurus (attraction), Virgo, 6H (Debts-runaanubandhas), and Capricorn- 10H (Karma), all of which bind the soul to the earth. No other tattwa except the Bhoo-tattwa has this trait, I think. The Simsumaara straddles the Capricorn-Cancer axis (earth-water) axis, and to traverse that axis one needs an amphibian animal, and a whale or a dolphin can hardly qualify as amphibious. What occurs to me is that Simsumaara could be the pre-cursor of the mythical Chinese Dragon, the venerated controller of wind, water, weather and the regulator of day & night. Dr. Satya, the description of Simsumaara in Srimad Bhaagavatham mentions Ashwini devatas as the breast(s) of the Great Being….and from Capricorn, Aries is the 4th house. Regards, Lakshmi > sjvc, "Dr Satya Prakash Choudhary" <satyaprakasika> > wrote: > > Aum Namah Shivaya > > > > Dear Visti and Lakshmi, > > > > Just a quick pointer. Simsumara/Sisumara is definetely not a > > crocodile. As far as my knowledge goes, it is an aquatic mammal > more > > like a porpoise. That is what the traditional idea has been, not a > > crocodile. Moreover the Aswins (the presiding deities of Aswini > > nakshatra- Alpha and Beta Aries) are also described as having a > > vehicle drawn by the Bull and Simsumara. Consult any star atlas and > > you will find that in front of Aries, we have the Bull (Taurus) and > > the constellation Cetus, the whale on the other side. I have in > fact > > seen old pictures of Simsumara, where it looks a bit like a > porpoise, > > but not like a crocodile. And for your information, a porpoise is > any > > of the six species of small whales. So simsumara being translated > as > > a dolphin gets 70% marks while crocodile gets zero%! Seriously > > speaking however,though porpoise is related to the dolphin, it is > > actually a **whale. Moreover the constellation Cetus is also > accepted > > generally as a whale. One final observation. Quite often, the forms > > of gods, deities, their vahanas, their dwajas (banner/flag) have > > their basis in astronomical facts/observations. That is why I > > referred to Aswinis. As far as the Matsyavatara is concerned better > > leave it as Piscean in nature as is accepted. There is no scope for > a > > doubt or ambiguity here. Hope I am not intruding into your > > discussion. It may be a small thing, but you know the form and > > essence are often linked and hence this pointer. > > > > Regards, > > Satya > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Aum Namah Shivaya Namaste Lakshmi garu , While browsing through the posts quickly, I saw the reference to the dolphin and crocodile in your discussions with Visti. I thought of restricting myself to giving only the translation of the word. Initially I just wanted to quickly point to the WORD and its usage, rather than the intricacies of this enigma. But now, I am tempted to write more. Personally I do not prefer to intellectualize much on mythology till I have let the whole thing sink into my mind, as it is often more symbolic and cannot always be literally taken. My reference to Simsumara and Aswinis was only as far as the ****translation/meaning of the word was concerned. The simsumara that pulls the chariot of the Aswinis along with the bull is a DIFFERENT context from the simsumara chakra. The accepted meaning of simsumara is something like a porpoise, which is a species of whale. After your last mail, I referred Vaman Shivram Apte's Sanskrit dictionary (motilal banarsidas) where it is given as Sumsumar and translated as porpoise. Bhargava's (benares) Hindi-English dictionary gives it as Sisumar and traslates it as "a porpoise, the planetary system, Krishna" and Sisumara chakr as "the heavenly bodies". >Dr. Satya, the description of Simsumaara in Srimad Bhaagavatham >mentions Ashwini devatas as the breast(s) of the Great Being….and >from Capricorn, Aries is the 4th house. This point cannot stand much in my opinion because one cannot simply superimpose the naksatra purusa and rasi purusa. If you see the description of the naksatra purusa in any work like the Kalaprakasika and the standard rasi purusa descriptions, their anatomies don't match. Just see if you can match all the naksatras and parts as mentioned, with the rasi purusa's anatomy by this logic! The anatomy of the nakshatra purusa is different. >The Simsumaara straddles the Capricorn-Cancer axis (earth-water) >axis, and to traverse that axis one needs an amphibian animal, and a >whale or a dolphin can hardly qualify as amphibious. What occurs to >me is that Simsumaara could be the pre-cursor of the mythical >Chinese Dragon, the venerated controller of wind, water, weather and >the regulator of day & night. Now coming back to Aswinis, the word has been used in a different context from the simsumara chakra, though similiar in **MEANING. But anyway the information and mythology about Cetus resembles Simsumara quite a bit. The reason why I am always referring to Simsumara as `**LIKE porpoise' (even in my very first mail), is because it is a mythological creature and CANNOT be really identified with any REAL LIFE FORM. Though it is whale ** like, it is amphibious and has been identified closely with the CETUS by some scholars. The Simsumara mentioned along with Aswinis, nevertheless could be *similar (not exactly same as) to the Simsumara of the Simsumara chakra. Similar concept, but at a different level. Interestingly the lines wherein you talk of the amphibious nature, you seem to be speaking almost about Cetus! I am giving extracts on Cetus from other ancient beliefs and ideas from across the globe from another author's compilation, below. The whale/dolphin/porpoise of mythology is actually amphibian while in real life it just is not. I am inclined to believe that if one wants to intellectualize mythology, one has to resort to ASTRONOMICAL/astrological observations, apart from other things. That is why I refer to the Aswinis etc. In my next mail I will just share a few more ideas astronomy, myth and symbols because talking of the crocodile reminds me of other things. Regards, Satya ================================================================== CETUS THE WHALE ================================== Cetus, the Sea-Monster, or Whale, is a large sprawling figure. Its bulky body lies south of the Celestial Equator while its head protrudes above the Equator. It occupies a space of 50 degrees in length by 20 degrees in breadth, and so is one of the most extended of the sky figures. Cetus sometimes represented swimming in the River Eridanus, although usually as resting on the bank with fore-paws in the water; its head, directly under Aries, marked by an irregular pentagon of stars, and its body stretching from the bend in Eridanus to that in the Stream from the Urn (of Aquarius). [sLM p.161]. "Starnames, Their Lore and Meaning" Richard Hinchley Allen, 1889, a reference book on the history of the stars and constellations for astronomers, Dover Publications 1963 Cetus lives in an area of the sky where all of its neighboring constellations have some connection with Water. East of Cetus is Eridanus, the Great River; north of it is Pisces, the Fishes; west of it are Aquarius, the Water Carrier, and Capricornus, the Seagoat; and to the south lies Piscis Austrinus, the Southern Fish. Ancient people often called this part of the sky "the Sea" because of the many water- related constellations located here. This constellation has been identified, with the fabled creature sent to devour Andromeda, but turned to stone at the sight of the Medusa's head in the hand of Perseus. The legend in which Cetus figured seems to have been current on the Euphrates long before our era. Cetus has been the usual title from ancient days although the stellar figure is unlike any whale known to zoology. Cetus is the Latin word for Whale, but this mythological creature is amphibious, it can live on both land and sea and has four legs. There were no whales in the region where this constellation originated. Although astrologically this constellation also rules whales, the myth of Cetus is based more on a big, fabulous creature than on any real form of life. Firmicus (circa 354 AD) said Belna, the Beast or Monster, is a more appropriate name than ours (whale). The Greeks and Romans had some species of cetacean; and the with the descriptive words, to 'blow' or 'spout', the common habit of the animal. The Harleian and Leyden Manuscripts show it with greyhound head, ears, and forelegs, but with a long, trident tail; the whole, perhaps, modeled after the ancient bas-relief of Perseus and Andromeda in the Naples Museum. It is found thus on the Farnese globe, and this figuring may have given rise to, or originated from, the early title that La Lande cited, Canis Tritonis, his own Chien de Mer (dog of the sea). Thus in these, as, in fact, in all delineation, it has been a strange and ferocious marine creature, in later times associated with the story of Andromeda, and the Euphratean Tiamat. [sLM]. The biblical school of the 17th century of course saw here the Whale that swallowed Jonah; and commentators on that great astronomical poem, the Book of Job, have said that it typified the Leviathan of which the Lord spoke to the patriarch. Julius Schiller (1627), who reinterpreted the constellations in Christian terms thought it "SS Joachim and Anna". [sLM]. Although an old constellation, Cetus is by no means of special interest, except as possessing the South Pole of the Milky Way and the 'Wonderful Star', the variable Mira; and from the fact that it is a condensation point of nebulae directly across the sphere from Virgo, also noted in this respect. [sLM]. "The Herder Symbol Dictionary" 1978, Herder Freiburg, Chiron Publications. The whale is a symbol of the abysmal, multivocal dark. It appears, for example, in the Bible Story of the prophet Jonah, who evaded the divine charge to preach in Nineveb, was cast over board, swallowed by a huge fish (usually represented as a whale), and cast up on land 3 days later (symbolically interpreted as Christ's death, entombment, and resurrection). The whale, like other animals such as the crocodile, elephant, and tortoise, is seen in the mythologies of many peoples as carrying the universe. [HSD p.213]. The Belly-of-the-Whale myth of Jonah in the Bible is typical of the initiation rites of death and rebirth. The jaws of the whale are the Gates of Hell. Jesus said "For as Jonas was 3 days and 3 nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth." Matthew 12:40 A Christian view of Cetus: The Witness of the Stars, E.W. Bullinger, 1893. Several early church fathers believed that the' 'whale" which swallowed Jonah was the symbol of God the Father, who, when the hapless prophet was thrown overboard, accepted Jonah into His own nature until a place of safety was reached. The story of Jonah is really a legend of initiation into the Mysteries, and the "great fish" represents the darkness of ignorance which engulfs man when he is thrown over the side of the ship (is born) into the sea (life). The custom of building ships in the form of fishes and birds, common in ancient times, could give rise to the story and maybe Jonah was merely picked up by another vessel and carried into port, the pattern of the ship causing it robe called a 'great fish' ("Veruatis simpZex oratto est!"). More probably the "whale" of Jonah is based upon the pagan mythological creature, hippocampus, part horse and part dolphin, for the early Christian statues and carvings show the composite creature and not a true whale. It is reasonable to suppose that the mysterious sea serpents which, according to the Mayan and Toltec legends, brought the gods to Mexico were Viking or Chaldean ships, built in the shape of composite sea monsters or dragons. H.P. Blavatsky advances the theory that the word Cetus, the great whale, is derived from keto, a name for the fish god, Dagon, and that Jonah was actually confined in a cell hollowed out in the body of a gigantic statue of Dagon after he had been captured by Phoenician sailors and carried to one of their cities. There is no doubt a great mystery in the gigantic form of Cetus, which is still preserved as a constellation. According to many scattered fragments extant, man's lower nature was symbolized by a tremendous, awkward creature resembling a great sea serpent, or dragon, called Leviathan. [The Secret Teachings Of All Ages written 1928 by Manly P Hall]. =============================================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2002 Report Share Posted September 17, 2002 Om Gurave Namah Namaste Dr. Satya garu, Great mails and lots of interesting details about Cetus and Aquarius. Thank you very much. The author, Sri Yelchuri Muralidhara Rao, whom I quoted is quite reputed for his translations...infact I was quoting from the tranlations he'd done for Sri Ramakrishna Mutt. And, since you are a Telugu speaking person yourself, please tell me if the word "mosali" carries a meaning other than a crocodile. Sisumaara could be a fish or it could be a crocodile..but I was talking only of Simsumaara. I am sure you'd have noticed that all my premises are mostly based on what I'd call primary "internal evidence", or what is apparent from the subject under discussion itself. The "external evidence", if any, is used only for corroboration and only if it really fits. Isn't there more likelihood of Simsumaara being similar to the Ancient Chinese Dragon than the Whale, as India & China had trade and diplomatic relationships since ancient times and their customs and beliefs could spring from a common Oriental Unconscious? Infact, a mismatch might occur when you try to superimpose a western viewpoint on an Asian concept, because the cultural ethos and nuances are bound to be different. Perhaps that's why I prefer to read and reference the classics in an Indian language. BTW, interestingly, the Bhaagavatham says that Angaraka (Mars) sits in the face of Simsumaara....well, for all you know it could be our good old friendly neighbourhood fork-tongued, fire-spewing dragon! Mars in Capricorn? And, I have no problem in perfectly synchronising the nakshtra roopa to the form of Simsumaara (if you are interested in a detailed description, I can post it to you) and I find all the puranic references on the matter quite consistent and credible. Satyaji, in all humility, I really don't think that modern Astronomy has discovered anything that hadn't already been discussed by the Wise Ancients. Infact, we are yet to grasp many of their theories. Thanks for an interesting discussion and hope you can make it to the Hyderabad conference. Regards, Lakshmi sjvc, "Dr Satya Prakash Choudhary" <satyaprakasika> wrote: > Aum Namah Shivaya > > Namaste Lakshmi garu , > > While browsing through the posts quickly, I saw the reference to the > dolphin and crocodile in your discussions with Visti. I thought of > restricting myself to giving only the translation of the word. > Initially I just wanted to quickly point to the WORD and its usage, > rather than the intricacies of this enigma. But now, I am tempted to > write more. Personally I do not prefer to intellectualize much on > mythology till I have let the whole thing sink into my mind, as it is > often more symbolic and cannot always be literally taken. > > My reference to Simsumara and Aswinis was only as far as the > ****translation/meaning of the word was concerned. The simsumara that > pulls the chariot of the Aswinis along with the bull is a DIFFERENT > context from the simsumara chakra. The accepted meaning of simsumara > is something like a porpoise, which is a species of whale. After your > last mail, I referred Vaman Shivram Apte's Sanskrit dictionary > (motilal banarsidas) where it is given as Sumsumar and translated as > porpoise. Bhargava's (benares) Hindi-English dictionary gives it as > Sisumar and traslates it as "a porpoise, the planetary system, > Krishna" and Sisumara chakr as "the heavenly bodies". > > >Dr. Satya, the description of Simsumaara in Srimad Bhaagavatham > >mentions Ashwini devatas as the breast(s) of the Great > Being….and > >from Capricorn, Aries is the 4th house. > > This point cannot stand much in my opinion because one cannot simply > superimpose the naksatra purusa and rasi purusa. If you see the > description of the naksatra purusa in any work like the Kalaprakasika > and the standard rasi purusa descriptions, their anatomies don't > match. Just see if you can match all the naksatras and parts as > mentioned, with the rasi purusa's anatomy by this logic! The > anatomy of the nakshatra purusa is different. > > >The Simsumaara straddles the Capricorn-Cancer axis (earth-water) > >axis, and to traverse that axis one needs an amphibian animal, and a > >whale or a dolphin can hardly qualify as amphibious. What occurs to > >me is that Simsumaara could be the pre-cursor of the mythical > >Chinese Dragon, the venerated controller of wind, water, weather and > >the regulator of day & night. > > Now coming back to Aswinis, the word has been used in a different > context from the simsumara chakra, though similiar in **MEANING. But > anyway the information and mythology about Cetus resembles Simsumara > quite a bit. The reason why I am always referring to Simsumara > as `**LIKE porpoise' (even in my very first mail), is because > it is a mythological creature and CANNOT be really identified with > any REAL LIFE FORM. Though it is whale ** like, it is amphibious and > has been identified closely with the CETUS by some scholars. The > Simsumara mentioned along with Aswinis, nevertheless could be > *similar (not exactly same as) to the Simsumara of the Simsumara > chakra. Similar concept, but at a different level. > > > Interestingly the lines wherein you talk of the amphibious nature, > you seem to be speaking almost about Cetus! I am giving extracts on > Cetus from other ancient beliefs and ideas from across the globe from > another author's compilation, below. The whale/dolphin/porpoise > of mythology is actually amphibian while in real life it just is not. > I am inclined to believe that if one wants to intellectualize > mythology, one has to resort to ASTRONOMICAL/astrological > observations, apart from other things. That is why I refer to the > Aswinis etc. In my next mail I will just share a few more ideas > astronomy, myth and symbols because talking of the crocodile reminds > me of other things. > > Regards, > Satya > > ================================================================== > CETUS THE WHALE > ================================== > > Cetus, the Sea-Monster, or Whale, is a large sprawling figure. Its > bulky body lies south of the Celestial Equator while its head > protrudes above the Equator. It occupies a space of 50 degrees in > length by 20 degrees in breadth, and so is one of the most extended > of the sky figures. Cetus sometimes represented swimming in the River > Eridanus, although usually as resting on the bank with fore-paws in > the water; its head, directly under Aries, marked by an irregular > pentagon of stars, and its body stretching from the bend in Eridanus > to that in the Stream from the Urn (of Aquarius). [sLM p.161]. > > "Starnames, Their Lore and Meaning" Richard Hinchley Allen, 1889, a > reference book on the history of the stars and constellations for > astronomers, Dover Publications 1963 > > > Cetus lives in an area of the sky where all of its neighboring > constellations have some connection with Water. East of Cetus is > Eridanus, the Great River; north of it is Pisces, the Fishes; west of > it are Aquarius, the Water Carrier, and Capricornus, the Seagoat; and > to the south lies Piscis Austrinus, the Southern Fish. Ancient people > often called this part of the sky "the Sea" because of the many water- > related constellations located here. > > > This constellation has been identified, with the fabled creature sent > to devour Andromeda, but turned to stone at the sight of the Medusa's > head in the hand of Perseus. The legend in which Cetus figured seems > to have been current on the Euphrates long before our era. Cetus has > been the usual title from ancient days although the stellar figure is > unlike any whale known to zoology. > > Cetus is the Latin word for Whale, but this mythological creature is > amphibious, it can live on both land and sea and has four legs. There > were no whales in the region where this constellation originated. > Although astrologically this constellation also rules whales, the > myth of Cetus is based more on a big, fabulous creature than on any > real form of life. Firmicus (circa 354 AD) said Belna, the Beast or > Monster, is a more appropriate name than ours (whale). The Greeks and > Romans had some species of cetacean; and the with the descriptive > words, to 'blow' or 'spout', the common habit of the animal. > > The Harleian and Leyden Manuscripts show it with greyhound head, > ears, and forelegs, but with a long, trident tail; the whole, > perhaps, modeled after the ancient bas-relief of Perseus and > Andromeda in the Naples Museum. It is found thus on the Farnese > globe, and this figuring may have given rise to, or originated from, > the early title that La Lande cited, Canis Tritonis, his own Chien de > Mer (dog of the sea). Thus in these, as, in fact, in all delineation, > it has been a strange and ferocious marine creature, in later times > associated with the story of Andromeda, and the Euphratean Tiamat. > [sLM]. > > > The biblical school of the 17th century of course saw here the Whale > that swallowed Jonah; and commentators on that great astronomical > poem, the Book of Job, have said that it typified the Leviathan of > which the Lord spoke to the patriarch. Julius Schiller (1627), who > reinterpreted the constellations in Christian terms thought it "SS > Joachim and Anna". [sLM]. > > Although an old constellation, Cetus is by no means of special > interest, except as possessing the South Pole of the Milky Way and > the 'Wonderful Star', the variable Mira; and from the fact that it is > a condensation point of nebulae directly across the sphere from > Virgo, also noted in this respect. [sLM]. > > > "The Herder Symbol Dictionary" 1978, Herder Freiburg, Chiron > Publications. > > > The whale is a symbol of the abysmal, multivocal dark. It appears, > for example, in the Bible Story of the prophet Jonah, who evaded the > divine charge to preach in Nineveb, was cast over board, swallowed by > a huge fish (usually represented as a whale), and cast up on land 3 > days later (symbolically interpreted as Christ's death, entombment, > and resurrection). The whale, like other animals such as the > crocodile, elephant, and tortoise, is seen in the mythologies of many > peoples as carrying the universe. [HSD p.213]. The Belly-of-the- Whale > myth of Jonah in the Bible is typical of the initiation rites of > death and rebirth. The jaws of the whale are the Gates of Hell. > Jesus said "For as Jonas was 3 days and 3 nights in the whale's > belly; so shall the Son of man be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of > the earth." Matthew 12:40 > > > A Christian view of Cetus: The Witness of the Stars, E.W. Bullinger, > 1893. > > Several early church fathers believed that the' 'whale" which > swallowed Jonah was the symbol of God the Father, who, when the > hapless prophet was thrown overboard, accepted Jonah into His own > nature until a place of safety was reached. The story of Jonah is > really a legend of initiation into the Mysteries, and the "great > fish" represents the darkness of ignorance which engulfs man when he > is thrown over the side of the ship (is born) into the sea (life). > The custom of building ships in the form of fishes and birds, common > in ancient times, could give rise to the story and maybe Jonah was > merely picked up by another vessel and carried into port, the pattern > of the ship causing it robe called a 'great fish' ("Veruatis simpZex > oratto est!"). More probably the "whale" of Jonah is based upon the > pagan mythological creature, hippocampus, part horse and part > dolphin, for the early Christian statues and carvings show the > composite creature and not a true whale. > > It is reasonable to suppose that the mysterious sea serpents which, > according to the Mayan and Toltec legends, brought the gods to Mexico > were Viking or Chaldean ships, built in the shape of composite sea > monsters or dragons. H.P. Blavatsky advances the theory that the word > Cetus, the great whale, is derived from keto, a name for the fish > god, Dagon, and that Jonah was actually confined in a cell hollowed > out in the body of a gigantic statue of Dagon after he had been > captured by Phoenician sailors and carried to one of their cities. > There is no doubt a great mystery in the gigantic form of Cetus, > which is still preserved as a constellation. According to many > scattered fragments extant, man's lower nature was symbolized by a > tremendous, awkward creature resembling a great sea serpent, or > dragon, called Leviathan. [The Secret Teachings Of All Ages written > 1928 by Manly P Hall]. > > > =============================================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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