Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Dear Wendy, ///The question to be asked is this: Does malefic Mars in 4th truly show such devotion, or does lagnesh Venus/Moon better describe the quality of his heart/devotion?/// Now here is a question and statement, i would love to explore in depth. Maybe after you weekend of rest we as a group can explore this concept. It is a fascinating one to analysis. It would make for great Jyotish Vidya discussion in jyotish applied theory. Fourth hse mrs in Cancer vs. Fourth hse mars in Leo vs. Taurus/Ve lagna vs Ge/Me lagna. You know, I really don't know, whoever chart it is. I am at the point right now that any one chart expresses energies but which are really the true essence of any one soul's destiny. As is often expressed in interpretation of delineation that (I am increasingly finding) unless the whole chart is taken into account any one combination, aspect or other relationship is difficult to determine. However, since we are talking about the Dalai Lama, as most of us know is a spiritual presence in the last 20 yrs or so, this is a valid question to put forth for exploration. Will we ever really know if one can not know for sure the birth time - probably not likely, but I think there are enough clues to entertain a very close summation. I found it interesting too, this late afternoon while I was on the Dalai Lama website. to have a chance to watch his recent speaking presence. Then, to compare it to his younger years of a young man with heavy dark glasses in his twenties and then to reread his behavior and thoughts as a young child. As we know, the art of reading someone in the counseling arts is often more important in their presentation than any test or reality that one puts forth. It does make for a great psychological breakdown and analysis but, then again when we have birth data often like medical test and labs reports and x-rays it helps greatly to put all the pieces together. Sometimes it does throw us off too. So, your question above is really a good one that I know I would like to explore further. Uttara p.s. I will say this now - so I don't seem like I am begging out of anything later, that my participation will be erratic next week because of family responsibilities. But, I will try to tune in and partake when I can "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us......As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne Williamson Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Messenger with Voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 To All, ///Fourth hse mrs in Cancer vs. Fourth hse mars in Leo vs. Taurus/Ve lagna vs Ge/Me lagna./// Should read Fourth hse mars in Virgo vs. Fifth hse Mars in Virgo vs. Taurus Lagna vs Ge/Me lagna - or Ve Mo in Leo 4th or 3rd. Makes a difference doesn't it. Sorry for the typo error Uttara jyotish-vidya, Uttara <muttaraphalguni wrote: > > Dear Wendy, > > > ///The > question to be asked is this: Does malefic Mars in 4th truly show > such devotion, or does lagnesh Venus/Moon better describe the quality > of his heart/devotion?/// > > Now here is a question and statement, i would love to explore in depth. Maybe after you weekend of rest we as a group can explore this concept. It is a fascinating one to analysis. > > It would make for great Jyotish Vidya discussion in jyotish applied theory. Fourth hse mrs in Cancer vs. Fourth hse mars in Leo vs. Taurus/Ve lagna vs Ge/Me lagna. > > You know, I really don't know, whoever chart it is. I am at the point right now that any one chart expresses energies but which are really the true essence of any one soul's destiny. > > As is often expressed in interpretation of delineation that (I am increasingly finding) unless the whole chart is taken into account any one combination, aspect or other relationship is difficult to determine. However, since we are talking about the Dalai Lama, as most of us know is a spiritual presence in the last 20 yrs or so, this is a valid question to put forth for exploration. > > Will we ever really know if one can not know for sure the birth time - probably not likely, but I think there are enough clues to entertain a very close summation. > > I found it interesting too, this late afternoon while I was on the Dalai Lama website. to have a chance to watch his recent speaking presence. Then, to compare it to his younger years of a young man with heavy dark glasses in his twenties and then to reread his behavior and thoughts as a young child. As we know, the art of reading someone in the counseling arts is often more important in their presentation than any test or reality that one puts forth. It does make for a great psychological breakdown and analysis but, then again when we have birth data often like medical test and labs reports and x-rays it helps greatly to put all the pieces together. Sometimes it does throw us off too. > > So, your question above is really a good one that I know I would like to explore further. > > Uttara > > p.s. I will say this now - so I don't seem like I am begging out of anything later, that my participation will be erratic next week because of family responsibilities. But, I will try to tune in and partake when I can > > > > > "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us......As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne Williamson > > > > > Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Messenger with Voice. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Hi Dear List, Sorry to be away so much. I haven't had the opportunity to see the messages for quite some time and have just done a quick view of all. Uttara, I hope your mother is feeling better today and all is well there. All blessings and best wishes to her. Just checked the chart for the Dalai Lama. It is a great gift to view his chart and also read more about him via the discussions and research of his life. I'm not sure still after reading many of the posts, what birth data you are all entering still for him to get a basic chart just to begin looking. Taking the time of 4:38 and Sining, China in Qinghai, PL gives 101E46 and 36N37, and I did change the timezone to 8.00 from something I saw from you Uttara. Are these the coordinates you all are using? I checked the files but didn't see any chart info for him there. (Wish that PL would let us look via Tibet versus China!) I'm personally just looking from the Chandra Lagna with the information I list above. I would though appreciate confirmation on the above - or have you all changed the coordinates or the timezone in some other way? It's quite interesting. Not writing too much without having confirmation this is the chart you're all using right now. Something very sweet though is the Moon/Venus conjunction in Leo. The Dalai Lama being the Bodhisattva of Compassion.. Looking up compassion in my significator book, it lists: Leo and Neptune. Although Jyotish does not use the outer planets, it is also interesting that Neptune is also conjoined closely with this Moon in Leo. Using this chart still, Moon's nakshatra is Poorva Phalguni, Venus star. A basic description of this nakshatra in PL is: "This person has sweet and pervasive speech, is agreeable, generous, handsome, majestic, very prone to travel (by foot) and engaged in honoring and serving the king." Further for this star: "The individual who in personal life succeeds in mastering the six impulses, that is the impulse of creativity which also masters death. Therefore, on the one hand this star symbolizes the joy of creation and enjoyment, on the other hand signifies desirelessness and asceticism. On the one hand it is the gateway to creation, basic seed of it, on the other hand it aims at renunciation, dissolution, and a merger in 'Brahma'. Fame and reknown are the special feature of this star." There is more. and of course that this Moon is only planet in Venus star, Venus itself in Magha. >From Chandra Lagna with Leo, we have Mars for both the 4th and 9th houses, mother and father. The Dalai Lama's website states: His Holiness' parents were small farmers who mostly grew barley, buckwheat and potatoes. His father was a man of medium height with a very quick temper. "I remember pulling at his moustache once and being hit hard for my trouble," recalls His Holiness. "Yet he was a kind man too and he never bore grudges." His Holiness recalls his mother as "undoubtedly one of the kindest people I have ever known." She had a total of sixteen children, of whom seven lived. Mars in Virgo - farming. (barley also signified by Mars). Aries for father can show quick temper. 5H from Moon, as mother, shows Rahu and in final degree, 5H general meaning for children. For mother again, kindness is listed: Moon, Venus - and this conjunction of these two planets as well as Moon only planet in Venus star. Best wishes to you all, Patrice _____ jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya] On Behalf Of Wendy Vasicek Friday, March 24, 2006 2:33 AM jyotish-vidya Re: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion Dear List, Rather than impose my views of the chart, it might be better to see what others have to say. I go back to Braha again mainly because the delineations are direct transcripts of taped sessions he had with eminent astrologers...and importantly it's written with clarity. Here (in part) is what Braha says: Mars in 4th House: "If Mars is in the 4th house the person will suffer on account of his mother. He will not get along with her and they will argue often. He is liable to have heart diseases. The person may be mean or cruel-hearted and will not be happy or content." [it goes without saying that benefic aspect/conjunction can of course soften this...this is not the case however in the Dalai Lama's chart.] Venus in 4th House: "This is the best position for Venus as it gets DikBala (directional strength) in the 4th house. The person will be happy and content. He will be kind, tender-hearted and capable of forgiving anyone. He will be close to his mother and will benefit from her. He will be diplomatic and well liked by everyone." Pandit Gopesh Kumar Ojha Says: "Malefics in the 4th house, unless he be the lord of the first or the fourth house, impair happiness in respect of the fourth house affairs. The Sun (or) Mars cause trouble in the region of the chest (heart etc) due to imbalance of Pitta...this is particularly so if they are lord of evil houses." [Mars owning 6th/11th houses is a dire malefic for Gemini lagna] I'll leave you all in peace now to make up your own minds... Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ _____ * Visit your group "jyotish-vidya <jyotish-vidya> " on the web. * jyotish-vidya <jyotish-vidya?subject=Un> * <> Terms of Service. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Hi Patrice, Great to see your email. My mother is gravely ill and continues to struggle. Although, I am home this afternoon for a much needed break and eventually some sound sleep. The Dalai Lama's Chart is quite fascinating and complex. It is also a very difficult challenge to sort out what is the best timing to use for his birth. This afternoon, as a diversion to all the personal chaos in my life right now, I find digging into the Dalai Lama's chart for verification on birth time, via China's time 1935 along with all its political havoc, a tiring but useful time of my attention. I continue to question just how China recorded time in 1935. There seems to be new evidence that I have uncovered, that conflicting cities were used at the time for birth recording. It seems to be a very wide diverse recording problem across China and not one just relegated to JV. Now to complicate matters, I am finding out that the various computer programs used, are listing Sun rise differently from others. This makes everything so much more complicated and frustrating. Wendy, has just purchased the newest edition of PL and is uploading it this weekend. I am anxious to her from her what PL 7 will give as a Sun rise. In the meantime, I have been using the following co-ordinates while I construct different time charts and different city charts along with different Time Zone charts. This is what I am using. I can not say what others are using. Takster farming village 's nearest city = Ganjia. 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' 00" Don't confuse it with Ganju, that is the mountainous elevation above the grasslands of the Gansu region where Ganjia and the Takster farming village are located. I am using Sinkiang - Tibet Time Zone of 6:00. To be more exact I am using 6:44. both are E of GMT. The 6.44 measurement comes from Astrodatabank.com A slew of earlier charts I created with the 8:00 + E of GMT I have kept but consider them to be invalid because 8+ was not instituted until after the Chinese War of 1949. Also, I am using what Astrodatabank has recorded as a birth time of 04:38 Another fact that I just uncovered last evening is that even though in 1911 China used the Gregorian calender for some political reasons to adjust to other countries who were using the Gregorian calendar. China as a whole civilly and locally used the Chinese Calendar until 1949 when the Peoples Republic of China was created as a communist country after the Chinese War. The Chinese Calendar is based on both the lunar and solar movements of the sky astronomically. Therefore, it was often noted in their calendars where primarily the lunar month was taken more seriously and religiously, that many years there were TWO July's and August months. YIKES! I am trying to track down the calendar for 1935 through various government sources including the National Time Service Center, The Chinese Academy of Sciences for the People's Republic of China. Along with the Metro logy and Inspection Ministry of Economic Affairs for the Republic of China. who hold different standard time in the colonies. I also have a call into the JPLab which keeps time for all of NASA and most of the current (especially the Swiss Ephemeris) are based on today. Using the correct Longitude and Latitudes for the various cities - the LMT is registering different Sun Rises instead of the 06:03 time recorded by Astrodatabank. Which has contributed to the source of our current debate/divide/.discussion on the most accurate birth chart for DL based on this 06:03 Sun Rise. along with time zone used and city used. I believe Wendy has a very good and well substantiated reference that supports the 6:03 Sun Rise recorded with the U.S. Navel Observatory. Along i believe with her PL 200 giving a 06:03 Sun Rise . So to recap - this is what I am using: LMT Sun Rise per current longitude and Latitude of cities 6.44 Time Zone 6 July 1935 birthday 04:38 birth time Goravani is giving for Ganjia, China a 05:18:21 Sun Rise in the 6th Tithi Waxing Moon for a birth time of (03:38) Taurus 27* 35' He is giving a 05:18:32 Sun Rise in th 6th Tithi Waxing Moon for a birth time of (04:38) Gemini 11* 36' Both charts were calculated using a 6:44 Sinkiang-Tibet Time Zone. And both were calculated with the nearest town (Ganjia, China) to the DL's birthing village, Taktser, in the grasslands of the Gansu Region in the Shopane Valley of Amdo, where Xining is the Capital of modern day Qinghai. Goravani also notes that the Dalai Lama was born on a Friday. Jhora 7.02 is giving a Sun Rise of 04:48:17 ( 5 July) Ganjia, China 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) 102 E 30 35N 24 00 Lagna: 17 GE 38' 58.27" Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra Moon: 168 Leo 47' 48.57" Purva Phalguni/Ve This is the one I am currently using *********************************************** Other times equal the following by Jhora 7.02 who does have in its computer programming the latest update of the Swiss Ephemeris (if that helps any) 04:47:54 (5 July) Xining Shi, (or Sining, China) 101 E 46' 00" 36 N 37' 00" 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) Lagna: 17 GE 44' 01.79" Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra 04:56:43 (5 July) Ginghai, China 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" 04:38 (6:44 E of GMT) Lagna: 15 GE 44' 48.00" Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra ********************************************* I did calculate out to the birth hour for a Taurus Rising using the LMT of current Longitude and Latitude for Ganjia, China 6:44 E GMT I came up with the following: 04:48:17 (5 July) Sun Rise Ganjia, China 03:20 (6.44 E of GMT) 102 E 30 35 N 24 00 Lagna: 29* Taurus 52' 02.60" Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma Moon: 16 Leo 09' 20.36" Purva Phalguni/Ve ********************************************************* If one were to calculate the chart this way then: 06:30 Sun Rise Qinghai, China 04:38 ( 8:00 E of GMT ) 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" Lagna: 28 TA 13' 37.34" Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma ************************************************ Patrice, I think in this case it would be a great idea to interpret the chart from the Moon. It only moves 1* no matter what time or time zone or city is used , so it is pretty stable. It might allow us to overcome the stumbling blocks that we have all encountered thus far. In the meantime, I continue to research. I wrote to His Holiness's offices yesterday in India and I am hoping that with all the request that they receive, mine will be given some attention and a reply will be forth coming in the future. Hope the above information helps I now have enough charts and paperwork that I have researched that I am out the door to by a 6 inch hardbound 3 ring folder because my 4 inch one is full!!! Gad, I feel like I have traveled all of China and parts of Northern India from my desk. Visiting Dharamsala is sounding more and more intriguing as a across the globe trip to visit with His Holiness and take in all the spirituality of the area. I might have to settle for his trip to L.A. - U.S.A. middle of September though. )-: I don't see how I could ever make the trip to India by myself or without physical help. My stamina and physical agility aren't what they used to be. But, boy I sure would love to go. I would make a great trip for the group if we could managed it. Uttara Patrice Curry <patricecurry wrote: Hi Dear List, Sorry to be away so much. I haven't had the opportunity to see the messages for quite some time and have just done a quick view of all. Uttara, I hope your mother is feeling better today and all is well there. All blessings and best wishes to her. Just checked the chart for the Dalai Lama. It is a great gift to view his chart and also read more about him via the discussions and research of his life. I'm not sure still after reading many of the posts, what birth data you are all entering still for him to get a basic chart just to begin looking. Taking the time of 4:38 and Sining, China in Qinghai, PL gives 101E46 and 36N37, and I did change the timezone to 8.00 from something I saw from you Uttara. Are these the coordinates you all are using? I checked the files but didn't see any chart info for him there. (Wish that PL would let us look via Tibet versus China!) I'm personally just looking from the Chandra Lagna with the information I list above. I would though appreciate confirmation on the above - or have you all changed the coordinates or the timezone in some other way? It's quite interesting. Not writing too much without having confirmation this is the chart you're all using right now. Something very sweet though is the Moon/Venus conjunction in Leo. The Dalai Lama being the Bodhisattva of Compassion.. Looking up compassion in my significator book, it lists: Leo and Neptune. Although Jyotish does not use the outer planets, it is also interesting that Neptune is also conjoined closely with this Moon in Leo. Using this chart still, Moon's nakshatra is Poorva Phalguni, Venus star. A basic description of this nakshatra in PL is: "This person has sweet and pervasive speech, is agreeable, generous, handsome, majestic, very prone to travel (by foot) and engaged in honoring and serving the king." Further for this star: "The individual who in personal life succeeds in mastering the six impulses, that is the impulse of creativity which also masters death. Therefore, on the one hand this star symbolizes the joy of creation and enjoyment, on the other hand signifies desirelessness and asceticism. On the one hand it is the gateway to creation, basic seed of it, on the other hand it aims at renunciation, dissolution, and a merger in 'Brahma'. Fame and reknown are the special feature of this star." There is more. and of course that this Moon is only planet in Venus star, Venus itself in Magha. >From Chandra Lagna with Leo, we have Mars for both the 4th and 9th houses, mother and father. The Dalai Lama's website states: His Holiness' parents were small farmers who mostly grew barley, buckwheat and potatoes. His father was a man of medium height with a very quick temper. "I remember pulling at his moustache once and being hit hard for my trouble," recalls His Holiness. "Yet he was a kind man too and he never bore grudges." His Holiness recalls his mother as "undoubtedly one of the kindest people I have ever known." She had a total of sixteen children, of whom seven lived. Mars in Virgo - farming. (barley also signified by Mars). Aries for father can show quick temper. 5H from Moon, as mother, shows Rahu and in final degree, 5H general meaning for children. For mother again, kindness is listed: Moon, Venus - and this conjunction of these two planets as well as Moon only planet in Venus star. Best wishes to you all, Patrice _____ jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya] On Behalf Of Wendy Vasicek Friday, March 24, 2006 2:33 AM jyotish-vidya Re: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion Dear List, Rather than impose my views of the chart, it might be better to see what others have to say. I go back to Braha again mainly because the delineations are direct transcripts of taped sessions he had with eminent astrologers...and importantly it's written with clarity. Here (in part) is what Braha says: Mars in 4th House: "If Mars is in the 4th house the person will suffer on account of his mother. He will not get along with her and they will argue often. He is liable to have heart diseases. The person may be mean or cruel-hearted and will not be happy or content." [it goes without saying that benefic aspect/conjunction can of course soften this...this is not the case however in the Dalai Lama's chart.] Venus in 4th House: "This is the best position for Venus as it gets DikBala (directional strength) in the 4th house. The person will be happy and content. He will be kind, tender-hearted and capable of forgiving anyone. He will be close to his mother and will benefit from her. He will be diplomatic and well liked by everyone." Pandit Gopesh Kumar Ojha Says: "Malefics in the 4th house, unless he be the lord of the first or the fourth house, impair happiness in respect of the fourth house affairs. The Sun (or) Mars cause trouble in the region of the chest (heart etc) due to imbalance of Pitta...this is particularly so if they are lord of evil houses." [Mars owning 6th/11th houses is a dire malefic for Gemini lagna] I'll leave you all in peace now to make up your own minds... Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ _____ * Visit your group "jyotish-vidya <jyotish-vidya> " on the web. * jyotish-vidya <jyotish-vidya?subject=Un> * <> Terms of Service. _____ Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web. jyotish-vidya "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us......As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne Williamson Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Messenger with Voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Wendy, I would like to work on this - this weekend and hopefully during the week, in my books and research, contribute something of value in context as you have here, regarding the placement of planets in houses etc. It shouldn't be considered imposing or anything other than really having the opportunitiy to delve deeply into a chart and learn from it. From all angles (-: Have a Great Weekend, Uttara jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish wrote: > > Dear List, > > Rather than impose my views of the chart, it might be better to see > what others have to say. I go back to Braha again mainly because the > delineations are direct transcripts of taped sessions he had with > eminent astrologers...and importantly it's written with clarity. Here > (in part) is what Braha says: > > Mars in 4th House: > "If Mars is in the 4th house the person will suffer on account of his > mother. He will not get along with her and they will argue often. He > is liable to have heart diseases. The person may be mean or > cruel-hearted and will not be happy or content." > [it goes without saying that benefic aspect/conjunction can of course > soften this...this is not the case however in the Dalai Lama's > chart.] > > Venus in 4th House: > "This is the best position for Venus as it gets DikBala (directional > strength) in the 4th house. The person will be happy and content. He > will be kind, tender-hearted and capable of forgiving anyone. He will > be close to his mother and will benefit from her. He will be > diplomatic and well liked by everyone." > > Pandit Gopesh Kumar Ojha Says: > "Malefics in the 4th house, unless he be the lord of the first or the > fourth house, impair happiness in respect of the fourth house > affairs. The Sun (or) Mars cause trouble in the region of the chest > (heart etc) due to imbalance of Pitta...this is particularly so if > they are lord of evil houses." > [Mars owning 6th/11th houses is a dire malefic for Gemini lagna] > > I'll leave you all in peace now to make up your own minds... > > Best Wishes, > Mrs. Wendy > http://JyotishVidya.com > ______________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 - Dear Wendy, Uttara, Patrice , Sean, Barney and all list members, The discussion on DL's horoscope has been very informative and a good learning experience. It is like 'Amritmanthan' going on , where everyone is giving their views. And Uttara, I am greatly impressed by the amount of research you have done on this subject and posted the same for everyone's benefit. Thanks and looking forward to more from you. Earlier , i would have just taken for granted any info on astrodatabank and other such sites. Now I have learnt to look for more and try to get at the source of all info. Patrice, in one of my earlier posts I had suggested the same thing. We can study the horoscope from the Moon sign and if you notice it is as potent from the Moon sign as from the ascendant. And there is no conflict as far as the Moon sign is concerned. In fact we have been taught that one can consider the stronger of the two, the ascendant or the Moon sign for delineating the results of a horoscope. If we take the taurus asc it comes close to last degree of Taurus which would make it in rasi sandhi, thereby rendering it weak. So thats another reason that we should study this from the Moon sign. The combination of Moon and Venus( with drigbal) in 4th is the most beautiful combination in this horoscope and fits in so well with DL's personality. Uttara if you can really make it to LA to meet DL it will really be something to look forward to.And maybe you can get first hand knowledge of his horoscope. Wendy, your experience is invaluable. It is something we all depend upon. You are like the catalyst that makes us think . Please continue to do so. Wishing all the very best and looking forward to everyone's contributions to JV, As ever, Neena -- In jyotish-vidya, "muttaraphalguni" <muttaraphalguni wrote: > > Wendy, > > I would like to work on this - this weekend and hopefully during the > week, in my books and research, contribute something of value in > context as you have here, regarding the placement of planets in > houses etc. It shouldn't be considered imposing or anything other > than really having the opportunitiy to delve deeply into a chart and > learn from it. From all angles (-: > > Have a Great Weekend, > > Uttara > > > > > > jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish@> > wrote: > > > > Dear List, > > > > Rather than impose my views of the chart, it might be better to > see > > what others have to say. I go back to Braha again mainly because > the > > delineations are direct transcripts of taped sessions he had with > > eminent astrologers...and importantly it's written with clarity. > Here > > (in part) is what Braha says: > > > > Mars in 4th House: > > "If Mars is in the 4th house the person will suffer on account of > his > > mother. He will not get along with her and they will argue often. > He > > is liable to have heart diseases. The person may be mean or > > cruel-hearted and will not be happy or content." > > [it goes without saying that benefic aspect/conjunction can of > course > > soften this...this is not the case however in the Dalai Lama's > > chart.] > > > > Venus in 4th House: > > "This is the best position for Venus as it gets DikBala > (directional > > strength) in the 4th house. The person will be happy and content. > He > > will be kind, tender-hearted and capable of forgiving anyone. He > will > > be close to his mother and will benefit from her. He will be > > diplomatic and well liked by everyone." > > > > Pandit Gopesh Kumar Ojha Says: > > "Malefics in the 4th house, unless he be the lord of the first or > the > > fourth house, impair happiness in respect of the fourth house > > affairs. The Sun (or) Mars cause trouble in the region of the > chest > > (heart etc) due to imbalance of Pitta...this is particularly so if > > they are lord of evil houses." > > [Mars owning 6th/11th houses is a dire malefic for Gemini lagna] > > > > I'll leave you all in peace now to make up your own minds... > > > > Best Wishes, > > Mrs. Wendy > > http://JyotishVidya.com > > ______________________________ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 Hello Dear Uttara, Neena and List, Man, you are so very thorough! Very impressive Uttara ;-) I'm very sorry to hear the condition of your mother and this continued struggle. It's wonderful that you are sharing the wishes sent to her via the list. Please give her my best once again and wishes for all the gentleness of the heavens to be with her at this time. I was concerned fo your mother over the lunar eclipse and it would be interesting to take a look at her chart via the eclipse. You had already reported all the health issues, and I wondered how that eclipse might affect her. Last month when I returned on here, after reading your posts, I had to check your chart again and was curious about Virgo - As you well know that being your Lagna, made me smile. It's interesting too that Mercury goes to your 12H conjoined with Ketu. (In your Navamsha chart, Virgo goes to the 8th house, and with Ketu there. ;-)) Rasi - Sun owns this 12H, with Mercury and Ketu, and your Saturn in 1H , Sun/Saturn are in Parivartana at the nakshatra level. Also interesting that you are in this Saturn/Ketu period, and if your time and info is all correct, in Saturn/Ketu/Rahu currently. Research itself in my significator books lists: Uranus, Aquarius, Mercury, Mars, Scorpio, 12H and 3H. Research involving mathmatics: Saturn. Hmmmm, Scorpio is also your 3H and this Saturn in your 1st. Mars being in your 10H. as well as Mars Star lord Jupiter in 7H, Wendy has taught me 7H can be another house to check for careers. Mars owning 8th as well as 3rd.Uttara, do you use your great skills for other work - career wise as well? This Ketu involved shows for this for Jyotish . Do you think so too? Saturn's moolatrikona house Aquarius is your 6th. Do you do research for health issues too - work/worked in hospitals? Again, Jyotish does not use the outer planets, but interestingly here again we see Uranus in your 10H conjoined with this Mars mentioned above. Interesting they haven't listed Virgo there, as I have seen this and as in your case where it's clear Virgo is an important component of your drive and exactness in this research and why I had guessed Virgo for you. Perhaps the 'perfectionism' of Virgo. Having three planets in Virgo myself, and my Lagna lord Sun conjoined with Moon in Scorpio (Moon own 12H), Mercury in 5H Pisces, and Jupiter as chart final depositor in 8H, I also enjoy this kind of research. I still am without time - and one might think brains as well - as I recently had a puppy sent to us. egads. She is lovely and the handful one would expect. It would have been wiser to wait until fully moved in here, etc. rested from my visitors and my nephew staying with us while looking to move here. (My nephew has returned to Ohio this week.) We decided to get this puppy now as our girls (two dogs) are getting very old for their breed, living very long lives, and we've had them since puppies. One has some growths, etc. so we decided to take advantage of the opportunity for this puppy as our girls are a big part of our lives getting outside, walking, etc.. So my point is, for a number of reasons I've been unable still to participate too much on our wonderful list. The Dalai Lama also visits here in DC regularly - another possibility to see him here in the US. He was here not too long ago. I also have missed the opportunities to see him. A great organization with lots of information is: International Campaign for Tibet, www.savetibet.org <http://www.savetibet.org/> - they are located here in DC. I always enjoy their beautiful calendars. I think the Moon chart is a great chart to use in this case, (Hi dear Neena, yes, I did see your suggestion in another post - I will respond to it next.) as well as in others where the time of birth is difficult. It's a good learning experience and also a great reminder that we should look at the Chandra Lagna as well as the Rasi when doing other charts in any depth, at least a great reminder for me. It is great also with our own families and grandparents, or great grandparents. and makes for some interesting study if there is interest in a specific family member no longer with us and we wish to understand or know more when we don't have their time of birth. But as Neena and you have said, in this particular chart, as Moon doesn't change much on either side of the time or location and is very stable, therefore including his actual correct time of birth, his chart is an excellent example to use via Chandra Lagna. Being that he is Bodhisattva of Compassion, I like that we're looking so strongly from Moon, and although Moon is not directly listed in my book as a significator of compassion, it certainly is highly important in any compassionate nature, don't you think. I love the idea for a trip to Dharamsala! Thanks Uttara, for your response to my post and giving me so much information on the data for this chart. Kindest regards, Patrice _____ jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya] On Behalf Of Uttara Friday, March 24, 2006 6:02 PM jyotish-vidya RE: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion * Hi Patrice, Great to see your email. My mother is gravely ill and continues to struggle. Although, I am home this afternoon for a much needed break and eventually some sound sleep. The Dalai Lama's Chart is quite fascinating and complex. It is also a very difficult challenge to sort out what is the best timing to use for his birth. This afternoon, as a diversion to all the personal chaos in my life right now, I find digging into the Dalai Lama's chart for verification on birth time, via China's time 1935 along with all its political havoc, a tiring but useful time of my attention. I continue to question just how China recorded time in 1935. There seems to be new evidence that I have uncovered, that conflicting cities were used at the time for birth recording. It seems to be a very wide diverse recording problem across China and not one just relegated to JV. Now to complicate matters, I am finding out that the various computer programs used, are listing Sun rise differently from others. This makes everything so much more complicated and frustrating. Wendy, has just purchased the newest edition of PL and is uploading it this weekend. I am anxious to her from her what PL 7 will give as a Sun rise. In the meantime, I have been using the following co-ordinates while I construct different time charts and different city charts along with different Time Zone charts. This is what I am using. I can not say what others are using. Takster farming village 's nearest city = Ganjia. 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' 00" Don't confuse it with Ganju, that is the mountainous elevation above the grasslands of the Gansu region where Ganjia and the Takster farming village are located. I am using Sinkiang - Tibet Time Zone of 6:00. To be more exact I am using 6:44. both are E of GMT. The 6.44 measurement comes from Astrodatabank.com A slew of earlier charts I created with the 8:00 + E of GMT I have kept but consider them to be invalid because 8+ was not instituted until after the Chinese War of 1949. Also, I am using what Astrodatabank has recorded as a birth time of 04:38 Another fact that I just uncovered last evening is that even though in 1911 China used the Gregorian calender for some political reasons to adjust to other countries who were using the Gregorian calendar. China as a whole civilly and locally used the Chinese Calendar until 1949 when the Peoples Republic of China was created as a communist country after the Chinese War. The Chinese Calendar is based on both the lunar and solar movements of the sky astronomically. Therefore, it was often noted in their calendars where primarily the lunar month was taken more seriously and religiously, that many years there were TWO July's and August months. YIKES! I am trying to track down the calendar for 1935 through various government sources including the National Time Service Center, The Chinese Academy of Sciences for the People's Republic of China. Along with the Metro logy and Inspection Ministry of Economic Affairs for the Republic of China. who hold different standard time in the colonies. I also have a call into the JPLab which keeps time for all of NASA and most of the current (especially the Swiss Ephemeris) are based on today. Using the correct Longitude and Latitudes for the various cities - the LMT is registering different Sun Rises instead of the 06:03 time recorded by Astrodatabank. Which has contributed to the source of our current debate/divide/.discussion on the most accurate birth chart for DL based on this 06:03 Sun Rise. along with time zone used and city used. I believe Wendy has a very good and well substantiated reference that supports the 6:03 Sun Rise recorded with the U.S. Navel Observatory. Along i believe with her PL 200 giving a 06:03 Sun Rise . So to recap - this is what I am using: LMT Sun Rise per current longitude and Latitude of cities 6.44 Time Zone 6 July 1935 birthday 04:38 birth time Goravani is giving for Ganjia, China a 05:18:21 Sun Rise in the 6th Tithi Waxing Moon for a birth time of (03:38) Taurus 27* 35' He is giving a 05:18:32 Sun Rise in th 6th Tithi Waxing Moon for a birth time of (04:38) Gemini 11* 36' Both charts were calculated using a 6:44 Sinkiang-Tibet Time Zone. And both were calculated with the nearest town (Ganjia, China) to the DL's birthing village, Taktser, in the grasslands of the Gansu Region in the Shopane Valley of Amdo, where Xining is the Capital of modern day Qinghai. Goravani also notes that the Dalai Lama was born on a Friday. Jhora 7.02 is giving a Sun Rise of 04:48:17 ( 5 July) Ganjia, China 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) 102 E 30 35N 24 00 Lagna: 17 GE 38' 58.27" Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra Moon: 168 Leo 47' 48.57" Purva Phalguni/Ve This is the one I am currently using *********************************************** Other times equal the following by Jhora 7.02 who does have in its computer programming the latest update of the Swiss Ephemeris (if that helps any) 04:47:54 (5 July) Xining Shi, (or Sining, China) 101 E 46' 00" 36 N 37' 00" 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) Lagna: 17 GE 44' 01.79" Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra 04:56:43 (5 July) Ginghai, China 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" 04:38 (6:44 E of GMT) Lagna: 15 GE 44' 48.00" Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra ********************************************* I did calculate out to the birth hour for a Taurus Rising using the LMT of current Longitude and Latitude for Ganjia, China 6:44 E GMT I came up with the following: 04:48:17 (5 July) Sun Rise Ganjia, China 03:20 (6.44 E of GMT) 102 E 30 35 N 24 00 Lagna: 29* Taurus 52' 02.60" Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma Moon: 16 Leo 09' 20.36" Purva Phalguni/Ve ********************************************************* If one were to calculate the chart this way then: 06:30 Sun Rise Qinghai, China 04:38 ( 8:00 E of GMT ) 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" Lagna: 28 TA 13' 37.34" Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma ************************************************ Patrice, I think in this case it would be a great idea to interpret the chart from the Moon. It only moves 1* no matter what time or time zone or city is used , so it is pretty stable. It might allow us to overcome the stumbling blocks that we have all encountered thus far. In the meantime, I continue to research. I wrote to His Holiness's offices yesterday in India and I am hoping that with all the request that they receive, mine will be given some attention and a reply will be forth coming in the future. Hope the above information helps I now have enough charts and paperwork that I have researched that I am out the door to by a 6 inch hardbound 3 ring folder because my 4 inch one is full!!! Gad, I feel like I have traveled all of China and parts of Northern India from my desk. Visiting Dharamsala is sounding more and more intriguing as a across the globe trip to visit with His Holiness and take in all the spirituality of the area. I might have to settle for his trip to L.A. - U.S.A. middle of September though. )-: I don't see how I could ever make the trip to India by myself or without physical help. My stamina and physical agility aren't what they used to be. But, boy I sure would love to go. I would make a great trip for the group if we could managed it. Uttara * <> Terms of Service. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 Hi Dear Neena and List, Thanks for your note Neena. Yes, I did see your post and all your interesting thoughts in this discussion. And I agree with you fully below in your thoughts due to last degree of Taurus and therefore sandhi position. I appreciate Wendy sharing the importance of the drigbal with respect to Venus in 4H, and your comments on this, and yes isn't this Moon/Venus combination so sweet and lovely in this chart. Also seems very important when considering the Dalai Lama's comments regarding his mother. Interesting thoughts Neena that this Chandra chart is as potent as from the ascendant. I enjoy your thoughts always. Thanks for your time and sharing on here. I'm eager for more and continued learning with these good posts and looking forward to more time here soon. Kindest wishes, Patrice _____ jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya] On Behalf Of neenako Saturday, March 25, 2006 12:48 AM jyotish-vidya Re: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion - Patrice, in one of my earlier posts I had suggested the same thing. We can study the horoscope from the Moon sign and if you notice it is as potent from the Moon sign as from the ascendant. And there is no conflict as far as the Moon sign is concerned. In fact we have been taught that one can consider the stronger of the two, the ascendant or the Moon sign for delineating the results of a horoscope. If we take the taurus asc it comes close to last degree of Taurus which would make it in rasi sandhi, thereby rendering it weak. So thats another reason that we should study this from the Moon sign. The combination of Moon and Venus( with drigbal) in 4th is the most beautiful combination in this horoscope and fits in so well with DL's personality. _____ * Visit your group "jyotish-vidya <jyotish-vidya> " on the web. * jyotish-vidya <jyotish-vidya?subject=Un> * <> Terms of Service. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 Dear all, Namaste Please see below jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish wrote: > > Postscript... > > //And, yes! I'll even accept that this Mars in 4th does show his > compassionate/tender heart and devotion to God etc..??// Wendy, no one has attributed his compassion, tender heart or devotion to God to F/M Mars in 4th. I agree that when looking at these significations of the 4th house in isolation then Mars in 4th does not add up. However, it is not so clear cut (at least to me) as there is a disparity between the quality of some 4th house matters like mother and heart, and others like home & homeland for the Dalai Lama. As evidenced by our discussion, this can be explained for either lagna depending on which significations one chooses to favor for the 4th house and how much weight is given to the planetary signifcations as well. For instance, the positive significations for mother & compassion can be seen regardless of lagna due to Moon and Venus being conjunct in Leo, and Moon being in a nakshatra of Venus. Patricia brought this out beautifully. Wendy has given good reason for dismissing the idea of Mars in 4th and I feel I have given good reason for considering Mars in 4th: As I have written previously, Mars in 4th can be seen as a signification of the invasion & occupation of his homeland by the Chinese -- Mars can be seen to have disrupted this house to such an extent that he isn't even able to live in his homeland and his homeland is a significant source of worry- in interviews the Dalai Lama has said that he is deeply troubled by what is going on inside Tibet. To add something new: Mars signifies mountains and deserts and that makes sense when considering the Dalai Lama's homeland of Tibet and his mountain-top residence in Dharamsala. So in regard to the significations of home & homeland, Mars in 4th can be seen to fit well or be seen to not fit at all. It just depends on which significations one favors in the interpretation. To further our research, I discovered that the Dalai Lama has had serious illness in the past, but I have not been able to pinpoint the exact timeframe or the nature of the illness. This is from a February 4 2003 interview the BBC: "The Dalai Lama told the BBC that he had now fully recovered from a serious illness he suffered almost a year ago, after taking both Western and Tibetan medication. A few months after falling sick, he was on foreign tours again." "Almost a year ago" from February 2003 would be maybe March-April 2002? For both lagnas this would be during Jupiter-Sun. The Jupiter mahadasha would favor Taurus lagna for a serious illness because Jupiter is in the 6th house & is lord of 8th & 11th. For Gemini lagna the Sun bukti makes more sense to me as Sun is conjuct lagna & lagnesh, though for Taurus lagna Sun is lord of lagnesh Venus. If the illness was pitta in nature and especially if it was related to the heart then the Gemini lagna would be strongly favored in my opinion considering Sun's influence on lagna & lagnesh and what was brought up about Mars influence on 4th house regarding the heart. Here are the transits for this time frame: During this period in question Jupiter was transiting through Gemini (6/16/2001 -- 07/05/2002). During this period Saturn was transiting through Taurus (06/7/2000 -- 07/23/2002) During this period Rahu was transiting through Taurus (02/17/2002 -- 09/06/2003) Unless the illness acutally occured in late July/August 2002, the transits strongly favor Taurus lagna because I would not think that Jupiter transiting the lagna for a Gemini ascendant could have a negative impact on health- could it? And even though Saturn is a functional benefic for Taurus, I would imagine that it could still cause trouble during its transit over lagna, plus Rahu was transiting Taurus lagna as well. For Gemini lagna these transits were over the 12th house which is related to hospitalization, but I don't know if the Dalai Lama was hospitalized. If more details were known about the time frame in order to get the transits of the other planets and if more was known about the nature of the illness it would help a great deal. Regarding the side by side comparison of the longevity significations for both the Taurus and Gemini charts -- I probably won't get to it. I looked at the link to the BHPS chapter and it seems like it would be very, very time consuming to do a thorough analysis for both charts, the calculations look complicated. And Wendy already pointed out that there are good longevity indications for both lagnas. What Neena bought out about the yoga giving a 120 year life span was interesting. Could some one post the details of what constitutes this yoga? Thanks, Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 Namaste I found out more detail regarding the illness mentioned in my previous post: http://www.khaleejtimes.co.ae/ktarchive/270102/subcont.htm (scroll down to the article about the Dalai Lama). Looks like onset of the illness may have been Sunday, January 20th 2002, the day when the Dalai Lama sought treatment at a hospital. The issue was with stomach/digestive tract. This is usually pitta related, but can be vata as well. This definitely gives more weight to Taurus lagna as 6th house is stomach & digestive tract, Jupiter 8th/11th lord is positioned in 6th in natal chart. While 6th lord Venus is also lagnesh. But it is not clear cut as the transits on this day are definitely rough for Gemini: Mars (6th lord) aspect was on lagna & on natal Mars. Rahu was transiting over lagna w/in 2 degrees of natal position of lagnesh Mercury. Mars, Rahu and Mercury all have indications related to digestion/digestive tract. Dasa lord Jupiter was also transiting lagna -- as I said I would not expect this Jupiter to give health trouble. Could it as 7th lord/ maraka? Bukti lord Sun, Venus, and lagnesh Mercury were all transiting the 8th house. Transiting Saturn was 12th house. In natal chart: Lagnesh Mercury is in a nakshatra of 6th lord Mars. Lagna is in nakshatra of Rahu (by the way this also seems plausible given the Dalai Lama's life as a whole) Sun is conjuct Lagna and Lagnesh Mercury, in a nakshatra of Rahu. Ketu's position in lagna can give trouble with diagnosis and make the cause of the illnesses uncertain - (maybe this can also give uncertainity regarding the birth time/ lagna!) ;^) It seems plausible to me that Sun bukti could give this illness given the transits and it's position in the natal chart for Gemini. These transits support Taurus lagna as well: Transiting 8th Lord Jupiter was aspecting 8th house and natal Jupiter in 6th house. Transit Mars was aspecting transit Jupiter and natal Jupiter/6th house. Saturn was transiting lagna. Ketu transiting over 8th house. (bukti lord Sun, Mercury, and lagnesh Venus transiting the 9th house doesn't seem to fit, but maybe the other transits are enough) Take it easy, Sean jyotish-vidya, "Sean Patrick Kelly" <toosean wrote: > > Dear all, > > Namaste > > Please see below > > jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish@> > wrote: > > > > Postscript... > > > > //And, yes! I'll even accept that this Mars in 4th does show his > > compassionate/tender heart and devotion to God etc..??// > > > Wendy, no one has attributed his compassion, tender heart or devotion > to God to F/M Mars in 4th. I agree that when looking at these > significations of the 4th house in isolation then Mars in 4th does not > add up. > > However, it is not so clear cut (at least to me) as there is a > disparity between the quality of some 4th house matters like mother > and heart, and others like home & homeland for the Dalai Lama. As > evidenced by our discussion, this can be explained for either lagna > depending on which significations one chooses to favor for the 4th > house and how much weight is given to the planetary signifcations as > well. > > For instance, the positive significations for mother & compassion can > be seen regardless of lagna due to Moon and Venus being conjunct in > Leo, and Moon being in a nakshatra of Venus. Patricia brought this > out beautifully. > > Wendy has given good reason for dismissing the idea of Mars in 4th and > I feel I have given good reason for considering Mars in 4th: > > As I have written previously, Mars in 4th can be seen as a > signification of the invasion & occupation of his homeland by the > Chinese -- Mars can be seen to have disrupted this house to such an > extent that he isn't even able to live in his homeland and his > homeland is a significant source of worry- in interviews the Dalai > Lama has said that he is deeply troubled by what is going on inside > Tibet. To add something new: Mars signifies mountains and deserts > and that makes sense when considering the Dalai Lama's homeland of > Tibet and his mountain-top residence in Dharamsala. So in regard to > the significations of home & homeland, Mars in 4th can be seen to fit > well or be seen to not fit at all. It just depends on which > significations one favors in the interpretation. > > To further our research, I discovered that the Dalai Lama has had > serious illness in the past, but I have not been able to pinpoint the > exact timeframe or the nature of the illness. This is from a February > 4 2003 interview the BBC: "The Dalai Lama told the BBC that he had now > fully recovered from a serious illness he suffered almost a year ago, > after taking both Western and Tibetan medication. A few months after > falling sick, he was on foreign tours again." > > "Almost a year ago" from February 2003 would be maybe March-April > 2002? For both lagnas this would be during Jupiter-Sun. The Jupiter > mahadasha would favor Taurus lagna for a serious illness because > Jupiter is in the 6th house & is lord of 8th & 11th. For Gemini lagna > the Sun bukti makes more sense to me as Sun is conjuct lagna & > lagnesh, though for Taurus lagna Sun is lord of lagnesh Venus. If the > illness was pitta in nature and especially if it was related to the > heart then the Gemini lagna would be strongly favored in my opinion > considering Sun's influence on lagna & lagnesh and what was brought up > about Mars influence on 4th house regarding the heart. > > Here are the transits for this time frame: > > During this period in question Jupiter was transiting through Gemini > (6/16/2001 -- 07/05/2002). > > During this period Saturn was transiting through Taurus (06/7/2000 -- > 07/23/2002) > > During this period Rahu was transiting through Taurus (02/17/2002 - - > 09/06/2003) > > Unless the illness acutally occured in late July/August 2002, the > transits strongly favor Taurus lagna because I would not think that > Jupiter transiting the lagna for a Gemini ascendant could have a > negative impact on health- could it? And even though Saturn is a > functional benefic for Taurus, I would imagine that it could still > cause trouble during its transit over lagna, plus Rahu was transiting > Taurus lagna as well. For Gemini lagna these transits were over the > 12th house which is related to hospitalization, but I don't know if > the Dalai Lama was hospitalized. > > If more details were known about the time frame in order to get the > transits of the other planets and if more was known about the nature > of the illness it would help a great deal. > > Regarding the side by side comparison of the longevity significations > for both the Taurus and Gemini charts -- I probably won't get to it. I > looked at the link to the BHPS chapter and it seems like it would be > very, very time consuming to do a thorough analysis for both charts, > the calculations look complicated. And Wendy already pointed out that > there are good longevity indications for both lagnas. > > What Neena bought out about the yoga giving a 120 year life span was > interesting. Could some one post the details of what constitutes this > yoga? > > Thanks, > Sean > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 //Wendy, no one has attributed his compassion, tender heart or devotion to God to F/M Mars in 4th. I agree that when looking at these significations of the 4th house in isolation then Mars in 4th does not add up.// You got that right at least...it most certainly does not add up! By insisting that Mars occupies 4th you are indeed consigning those qualities to his emotional heart, happiness and contentment, piety, righteous conduct, character, mother etc.. //However, it is not so clear cut (at least to me) as there is a disparity between the quality of some 4th house matters like mother and heart, and others like home & homeland for the Dalai Lama.// No disparity at all! Perhaps I can make it clear to you: 4th lord in 2nd, conjunct Ketu and 2nd lord Mercury (dispositor of Mars) is aspected by 8th lord Jupiter (dispositor of Rahu). I don't know how many times I've got to say it but I'll try one more time...8th house shows conflict/battle and 8th lord aspecting 9th/10th lord Saturn, 12th house (home of religion/monasteries) and 4th lord Sun shows clearly the attack on Tibet by invading Chinese army...this is quite clear and unarguable! At the same time, lagnesh Venus conjunct Moon (in 4th) shows his tender-hearted, forgiving nature - without doubt! He is not even hostile towards the Chinese (with whom he has every right to be). Consider Mars in 4th...hostile relationship with mother, lacks happiness and contentment...my God the DL is one of the happiest, most contented people you could ever wish to meet, in spite of the occupation of his homeland and the suffering that's been brought to his people...always laughing, always kind, liked by everyone...and STILL you insist he has Mars in 4th?? Consider also this Mars aspect on 10th house. //As evidenced by our discussion, this can be explained for either lagna depending on which significations one chooses to favor for the 4th house and how much weight is given to the planetary signifcations as well.// No it can not! Of course one can argue anything if they're so disposed but is this argument backed by sound astrological knowledge? I don't think so! //For instance, the positive significations for mother & compassion can be seen regardless of lagna due to Moon and Venus being conjunct in Leo, and Moon being in a nakshatra of Venus.// I see - karaka for 4th in 12th from 4th favours 4th house significations - is this what you're saying? Well it's possible, I suppose, that you know more than the sages who declare that the Moon in 3rd (trishadaya) is not favourable for one's status or general well-being. Also the relationship with mother will be distant or disturbed...so say the sages. //Wendy has given good reason for dismissing the idea of Mars in 4th and I feel I have given good reason for considering Mars in 4th: Mars in 4th can be seen to fit well or be seen to not fit at all. It just depends on which significations one favors in the interpretation.// One has to consider ALL significations, Sean! This I'm sure you'll learn as you progress with your studies :-) //To further our research, I discovered that the Dalai Lama has had serious illness in the past, but I have not been able to pinpoint the exact timeframe or the nature of the illness. This is from a February 4 2003 interview the BBC: "The Dalai Lama told the BBC that he had now fully recovered from a serious illness he suffered almost a year ago, after taking both Western and Tibetan medication. A few months after falling sick, he was on foreign tours again." "Almost a year ago" from February 2003 would be maybe March-April 2002? For both lagnas this would be during Jupiter-Sun. The Jupiter mahadasha would favor Taurus lagna for a serious illness because Jupiter is in the 6th house & is lord of 8th & 11th. If more details were known about the time frame in order to get the transits of the other planets and if more was known about the nature of the illness it would help a great deal.// The article regarding his health (pointing to gastric problem) was actually written on 27 Jan 2002 so I think we can safely assume it was around that time that he fell ill. According to the information I now have on PL7, the dasa at the time would have been JU-VE-SA. Time zone is given as -07:00 and Sunrise is given as 05:02:31. I've used a (tentative) time of 03:32 for a lagna of 28°23'31" Taurus. Daybreak (dawn), I believe, is around an hour before actual sunrise...this could well account for a mother (giving birth) to declare the time to be "early morning, before sunrise". We know certainly, for that time frame, the only two possibilities are Taurus or Gemini. Knowing the nature of the Dalai Lama and (importantly) his actions/status in this world we shouldn't find it too difficult to come to the right conclusion. He is a great peace-loving soul who, by no stretch of the imagination, can possibly have F/M Mars in 4th and aspecting 10th. I'm speechless to think that anyone could advocate this...even a raw student should know the effect (this) Mars would have on one's character...it's elementary! Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Dear all, Namaste jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish wrote: > > //Wendy, no one has attributed his compassion, tender heart or > devotion to God to F/M Mars in 4th. I agree that when looking at > these significations of the 4th house in isolation then Mars in 4th > does not add up.// > > You got that right at least...it most certainly does not add up! By > insisting that Mars occupies 4th you are indeed consigning those > qualities to his emotional heart, happiness and contentment, piety, > righteous conduct, character, mother etc.. I didn't think I was "insisting" on anything - as I have said I am attempting to show how the Gemini lagna is reasonable as well. And what's with the comments like "you got that right at least"? It sounds condescending to me. > > //However, it is not so clear cut (at least to me) as there is a > disparity between the quality of some 4th house matters like mother > and heart, and others like home & homeland for the Dalai Lama.// > > No disparity at all! Perhaps I can make it clear to you: > 4th lord in 2nd, conjunct Ketu and 2nd lord Mercury (dispositor of > Mars) is aspected by 8th lord Jupiter (dispositor of Rahu). I don't > know how many times I've got to say it but I'll try one more > time...8th house shows conflict/battle and 8th lord aspecting > 9th/10th lord Saturn, 12th house (home of religion/monasteries) and > 4th lord Sun shows clearly the attack on Tibet by invading Chinese > army...this is quite clear and unarguable! Wendy, this looks like you're using the 4th house to describe some significations, then using the 4th lord to describe the others? This is the disparity regarding 4th house matters that I was talking about. With Taurus lagna one has to look at 4th lord to see all the trouble with home and homeland because it is not seen by Moon/Venus in 4th. Likewise, you haven't applied your 4th lord interpretations to the describe mother or other 4th house matters. You are telling me that for Gemini rising, Mars has to color all 4th house matters despite other factors in the chart, and yet you are not using Moon/Venus to describe all 4th house matters for Taurus rising either. So to me it seems that you are saying one thing, but then practicing another. > > At the same time, lagnesh Venus conjunct Moon (in 4th) shows his > tender-hearted, forgiving nature - without doubt! He is not even > hostile towards the Chinese (with whom he has every right to be). > Consider Mars in 4th...hostile relationship with mother, lacks > happiness and contentment...my God the DL is one of the happiest, > most contented people you could ever wish to meet, in spite of the > occupation of his homeland and the suffering that's been brought to > his people...always laughing, always kind, liked by everyone...and > STILL you insist he has Mars in 4th?? Consider also this Mars aspect > on 10th house. Wendy, please see my previous posts, I had written about this aspect of Mars on 10th house before. And, again, I am not "insisting" that this is the case, but I have been pointing out how it is plausible to me. > > //As evidenced by our discussion, this can be explained for either > lagna depending on which significations one chooses to favor for the > 4th house and how much weight is given to the planetary signifcations > as well.// > > No it can not! Of course one can argue anything if they're so > disposed but is this argument backed by sound astrological knowledge? > I don't think so! > > //For instance, the positive significations for mother & compassion > can be seen regardless of lagna due to Moon and Venus being conjunct > in Leo, and Moon being in a nakshatra of Venus.// > > I see - karaka for 4th in 12th from 4th favours 4th house > significations - is this what you're saying? No, Wendy that is not what I was saying. I wrote what I wrote, no more. Please do not put words in my mouth. It is clear I was not referring to the specific house placement as I said "regardless of lagna". I was simply referring Moon conjuct Venus, in a star of Venus, in the constellation of Leo. >Well it's possible, I > suppose, that you know more than the sages who declare that the Moon > in 3rd (trishadaya) is not favourable for one's status or general > well-being. Also the relationship with mother will be distant or > disturbed...so say the sages. Wendy, why the sarcasm? I know you don't really think it is possible that I know more than the sages. Regarding the placement of the Moon: You also had written that the sages have said the natural karaka harms the bhava that has the same signification. Yet you've said nothing about Moon, the natural karaka for Mother, being in the house that signifies Mother. You only used that principle to discount what I wrote about Jupiter in 5th giving abundant disciples. If you are going to referrence a principle in order to discount what I have written, I think you should at least apply the principle in your interpretaion as well. > > //Wendy has given good reason for dismissing the idea of Mars in 4th > and I feel I have given good reason for considering Mars in 4th: > Mars in 4th can be seen to fit well or be seen to not fit at all. It > just depends on which significations one favors in the > interpretation.// > > One has to consider ALL significations, Sean! This I'm sure you'll > learn as you progress with your studies :-) Wendy, you cut out what I've written about the indications of Mars in 4th from the quoted text. It would've been nice if you commented on that and if they were good points then acknowledge it. > > The article regarding his health (pointing to gastric problem) was > actually written on 27 Jan 2002 so I think we can safely assume it > was around that time that he fell ill. Yes - as I stated in my previous post, the Dalai Lama first sought treatment at a hospital on 20 Jan 2002. The article was published 27 Jan 2002 and states that he was taken to the hospital on Sunday which would have been 20 Jan 2002. > According to the information I > now have on PL7, the dasa at the time would have been JU-VE-SA. Time > zone is given as -07:00 and Sunrise is given as 05:02:31. I've used a > (tentative) time of 03:32 for a lagna of 28°23'31" Taurus. Daybreak > (dawn), I believe, is around an hour before actual sunrise...this > could well account for a mother (giving birth) to declare the time to > be "early morning, before sunrise". Is this the same birth time you were using previously - when you were including pratyantardasas in your interpretrations of major life events? Previously we were getting the same bukti lord despite using the different lagnas, but it looks like we are not in this case. As stated my previous post, I am gettting Jupiter-Sun for this time period. > > We know certainly, for that time frame, the only two possibilities > are Taurus or Gemini. Knowing the nature of the Dalai Lama and > (importantly) his actions/status in this world we shouldn't find it > too difficult to come to the right conclusion. He is a great > peace-loving soul who, by no stretch of the imagination, can possibly > have F/M Mars in 4th and aspecting 10th. I'm speechless to think that > anyone could advocate this...even a raw student should know the > effect (this) Mars would have on one's character...it's elementary! Well, I remain open to the possibility that the Dalai Lama was born with Gemini rising despite your assertion that it is Taurus. Maybe we'll know for sure some day but until then I am not going to rule it out. Here is another good article about the Dalai Lama for those interested: http://www.gluckman.com/DalaiLama.html Here are some quotes from the article: "Since childhood, the Dalai Lama has been an incorrigible tinkerer. He still has a Rolex watch given to him by U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt -- a credit to his do-it-yourself skills. As a youngster, he amazed and annoyed elders by repairing Tibet's three cars, the legacy of a previous incarnation, and then secretly taking one for a spin. That day, the boy king learned the hard way about the need for reliable brakes. He also once took apart and repaired an old film projector, all without any instructions." "He is easily -- or, more accurately, eagerly -- distracted. And he is a lively speaker, with a curious appetite for any topic." "The world's most famous monk looks like a cross between Gandhi and Groucho Marx, with the cocky confidence and world-class wit of both." These descriptions and others I found encourage me to remain open to the possibility of Gemini lagna. Here is a general description of Gemini rising that I found doing a quick search: http://www.yournetastrologer.com/theory%5Ct24.htm "Gemini is an airy sign ruled by Mercury, the significator of communication and confidence. These factors render the Geminians with excellent powers of speech and communication. They have an energetic nature and are always looking for change, interchange, motion and invention. If the mind is turned inwards, the native has the ability to progress far in the spiritual field... Gemini is a dual, positive, tamasic, tri-dosha i.e. vata, pitta and kapha, male, talkative, barren and biped sign and gives an ambitious nature with imaginative ideas. They usually love knowledge and like much movement, change and initiative. Depending on the influences on the ascendant, the sign Gemini usually renders their natives with a sharp intellect and conscious mind, spontaneous, adaptable, analytical, educated, learned, helpful, with teaching abilities, intense sense of humor, wit and imagination" Take it easy, Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Namaste Hi Dear Patrice and All, Dear Patrice may I answer you kind letter at a later time? - In the meantime, I want to say I found your email very warming and interesting in all respects. About the information you have gathered from my birth chart - the short answer is yes, yes and yes. You are right on about everything. Well Done. I appreciate it. There is more I could elaborate on to your findings - but, I will leave it to another date - if you don't mind for the time being. In the meantime, after another serious setback this past Friday evening with my Mother, I am home for a change of clothing and a few hours rest. I couldn't help though, to sit at my computer for a while and once more pour over the printed ancient/historical China maps and topographic changes that have occurred in China since 1911 and more importantly since 1949. There have been many. I have many more references that i will share with the group at a later date , but for the moment what I wanted to convey - because I feel it is important is the following: In 1935 the time zone for the birth village the Dalai Lama's parent's were from and presumably where he was born, was on the edge of the Time Zone demarcations at the time. I have concluded that just East of the 6:00 Time Zone where in fact the Holy city of Lhasa was included - Taktser, a then farming village of the region of Tsongkha in the Northeastern Amdo province of China, where its nearest city is modern day Ganjia, does in fact rest in the 7:00 E GMT Kansu-Szechuan Time Zone. Further, the Kumbum Monastery at the time was keeper of records along with aiding the plight of the Lake area nomads in the horrific drought and whether conditions of the time. I would also guess that the Monastery being the main stay of the people was well institutionalized in knowledge and medical care along with religious endeavors and presiding rulers over the people in their domain. So, I would not be surprise if in fact, they had a birthing center or a high priest or priestess that aided or was called to a Midwife's side at birth. Kumbum rest at the time only as defined in the Amdo province. Since then it officially rest in the province of Qinghai, however, the size of Qinghai is similar to the size of the state of Texas in the USA and would at the time cover three time zones. Also, the village of Taktser in the Amdo province fell in the Golok region of Ganja. Taktser is located in the region of Tsongkha, which at the time was a war lord territory of the Golok region (county - district - whatever) and in fact was paid a large sum of money to allow the 2 yr old D.L. to leave and travel to Lhasa. The war lords were in-fighting with the religious of Kumbum Monastery and the Tibetan people for control. Today of course since 1949 even though much of the area that Qinghai covers was not under legal jurisdiction by the Peoples Republic of China until after 1959/60 - does fall - as the whole of China - minus their few southern colonies - in the 8:00 E GMT Time Zone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China http://www.tew.org/geography/historical.map4.html http://www.entew.org/geography/historical.map5.html http:www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/TibPages/Map/tibet-map3.gif http://enwikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tibet-claims.jpg I ran a few charts to see where we would be using a 7:00 E GMT Time Zone I used Ganjia, China. I ruled out Qinghai because of its wide breath in its province.. I ruled out Xining because it was to far west Kumbum is a monastery so there is no location for it in long or lat I ran a search for Golok area and came up with nothing I felt close in long or lat or in name for its area And the region of Tsongkha falls in the Ganjia city boundaries which is between the (counties?) of Golok and the eastern city of Choni with the Yellow river running between the two. This supports the background information on the biography of the Dalai Lama I also have had the distinct feeling for a better part of a week now while researching, that the DL's birth chart could have been purposely changed when he was named the 14th Dalai Lama at age two, to reflect a better nakhastra in Lagna and Moon. This feeling on top of the very real mis calculation of the interpretation of "just before" daylight or actual Sun rise from the midwife (who was the DL's older sister) or his mother. Labor and then birthing pre and post natal is not as easy or as accountable as one would think. There are a lot of factors that go into the actual time of birth for record keeping and remembering. I am guessing here, but I have a feeling that the Dalai Lama was a premature birth, small in size, and his mother had a long and difficult labor and delivery. I am saying that because of the conditions in which he was born, the drought and stress the family endured for 3 yrs; the fact that the mother was not well nourished through her pregnancy, the stress of the environment and the fact that her eldest daughter acted as midwife. This on top of the fact that even though the DL was his mother's fifth child he was only one of 16 who lived. It's just a guess but it was 1935 in the middle of a God forsaken drought dust bowl under the worse conditions for baby and mother/parents. The monastery in fact keep them from total starvation as on of 14 families that stayed behind when the other families all of 20 of them moved on. It could also be an explanation as to why the DL as a baby was "somber" as his mother quotes and was very attached to her and "not like the other children" as a baby and wee tot. It can also explain why when verbal he was packing his bags to go to Lhasa -as in a child's mind and probably hearing his parents - minic their wishes for a better life in the Holy city. Ganjia then becomes the closest city to the Kumbum Monastery and sits in the Lake region of the Tibetan plateau of Nomads in the grasslands of Gansu in the Amdo province of China.. 6 July 1935 5:04:17 Sun rise (5 July) 04:38:00 (7:00 East of GMT) 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' 00" (Ganjia, China) Lagna: 14 Ge 08' 35.12" Nakshatra Ardra/Ra Moon: 16 Leo 39' 55.11 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni **************************************************************** 03:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) Lagna: 0 Gemini 20' 56.76" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma Moon: 16 Leo 10' 19.55" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni **************************************************************** 03:35:00 (7:00 East GMT) Lagna: 29 TA 37' 33.28" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma Moon: 16 Leo 8' 50.77" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni **************************************************************** 03:08:00 (7:00 East GMT) Lagna: 22 TA 56' 11.39" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo Moon: 15 Leo 55' 31.73" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni *************************************************************** 02:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) Lagna: 15 TA 03' 51.49" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo Moon: 15 Leo 40' 43.87 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni *************************************************************** I also have contacts into The Shang-Shung Institute of America, which is located in Mass. USA and one of its faculty members a Dr. Kunchok Gyaltsen who is currently a doctoral student at the UCLA School of Public Health in Los Angeles, Ca U.S.A. I have contacts there that can network for me to reach him. His profile on the Shang-Shung Institute website is pretty impressive. http://www.shangshung.org/medicine/bio.php?kunchok&parent_nav=7 Hope the above information is helpful. I leave you in peace and continual discussion amongst yourselves.. As Always, Uttara Patrice Curry <patricecurry wrote: Hello Dear Uttara, Neena and List, Man, you are so very thorough! Very impressive Uttara ;-) I'm very sorry to hear the condition of your mother and this continued struggle. It's wonderful that you are sharing the wishes sent to her via the list. Please give her my best once again and wishes for all the gentleness of the heavens to be with her at this time. I was concerned fo your mother over the lunar eclipse and it would be interesting to take a look at her chart via the eclipse. You had already reported all the health issues, and I wondered how that eclipse might affect her. Last month when I returned on here, after reading your posts, I had to check your chart again and was curious about Virgo - As you well know that being your Lagna, made me smile. It's interesting too that Mercury goes to your 12H conjoined with Ketu. (In your Navamsha chart, Virgo goes to the 8th house, and with Ketu there. ;-)) Rasi - Sun owns this 12H, with Mercury and Ketu, and your Saturn in 1H , Sun/Saturn are in Parivartana at the nakshatra level. Also interesting that you are in this Saturn/Ketu period, and if your time and info is all correct, in Saturn/Ketu/Rahu currently. Research itself in my significator books lists: Uranus, Aquarius, Mercury, Mars, Scorpio, 12H and 3H. Research involving mathmatics: Saturn. Hmmmm, Scorpio is also your 3H and this Saturn in your 1st. Mars being in your 10H. as well as Mars Star lord Jupiter in 7H, Wendy has taught me 7H can be another house to check for careers. Mars owning 8th as well as 3rd.Uttara, do you use your great skills for other work - career wise as well? This Ketu involved shows for this for Jyotish . Do you think so too? Saturn's moolatrikona house Aquarius is your 6th. Do you do research for health issues too - work/worked in hospitals? Again, Jyotish does not use the outer planets, but interestingly here again we see Uranus in your 10H conjoined with this Mars mentioned above. Interesting they haven't listed Virgo there, as I have seen this and as in your case where it's clear Virgo is an important component of your drive and exactness in this research and why I had guessed Virgo for you. Perhaps the 'perfectionism' of Virgo. Having three planets in Virgo myself, and my Lagna lord Sun conjoined with Moon in Scorpio (Moon own 12H), Mercury in 5H Pisces, and Jupiter as chart final depositor in 8H, I also enjoy this kind of research. I still am without time - and one might think brains as well - as I recently had a puppy sent to us. egads. She is lovely and the handful one would expect. It would have been wiser to wait until fully moved in here, etc. rested from my visitors and my nephew staying with us while looking to move here. (My nephew has returned to Ohio this week.) We decided to get this puppy now as our girls (two dogs) are getting very old for their breed, living very long lives, and we've had them since puppies. One has some growths, etc. so we decided to take advantage of the opportunity for this puppy as our girls are a big part of our lives getting outside, walking, etc.. So my point is, for a number of reasons I've been unable still to participate too much on our wonderful list. The Dalai Lama also visits here in DC regularly - another possibility to see him here in the US. He was here not too long ago. I also have missed the opportunities to see him. A great organization with lots of information is: International Campaign for Tibet, www.savetibet.org <http://www.savetibet.org/> - they are located here in DC. I always enjoy their beautiful calendars. I think the Moon chart is a great chart to use in this case, (Hi dear Neena, yes, I did see your suggestion in another post - I will respond to it next.) as well as in others where the time of birth is difficult. It's a good learning experience and also a great reminder that we should look at the Chandra Lagna as well as the Rasi when doing other charts in any depth, at least a great reminder for me. It is great also with our own families and grandparents, or great grandparents. and makes for some interesting study if there is interest in a specific family member no longer with us and we wish to understand or know more when we don't have their time of birth. But as Neena and you have said, in this particular chart, as Moon doesn't change much on either side of the time or location and is very stable, therefore including his actual correct time of birth, his chart is an excellent example to use via Chandra Lagna. Being that he is Bodhisattva of Compassion, I like that we're looking so strongly from Moon, and although Moon is not directly listed in my book as a significator of compassion, it certainly is highly important in any compassionate nature, don't you think. I love the idea for a trip to Dharamsala! Thanks Uttara, for your response to my post and giving me so much information on the data for this chart. Kindest regards, Patrice _____ jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya] On Behalf Of Uttara Friday, March 24, 2006 6:02 PM jyotish-vidya RE: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion * Hi Patrice, Great to see your email. My mother is gravely ill and continues to struggle. Although, I am home this afternoon for a much needed break and eventually some sound sleep. The Dalai Lama's Chart is quite fascinating and complex. It is also a very difficult challenge to sort out what is the best timing to use for his birth. This afternoon, as a diversion to all the personal chaos in my life right now, I find digging into the Dalai Lama's chart for verification on birth time, via China's time 1935 along with all its political havoc, a tiring but useful time of my attention. I continue to question just how China recorded time in 1935. There seems to be new evidence that I have uncovered, that conflicting cities were used at the time for birth recording. It seems to be a very wide diverse recording problem across China and not one just relegated to JV. Now to complicate matters, I am finding out that the various computer programs used, are listing Sun rise differently from others. This makes everything so much more complicated and frustrating. Wendy, has just purchased the newest edition of PL and is uploading it this weekend. I am anxious to her from her what PL 7 will give as a Sun rise. In the meantime, I have been using the following co-ordinates while I construct different time charts and different city charts along with different Time Zone charts. This is what I am using. I can not say what others are using. Takster farming village 's nearest city = Ganjia. 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' 00" Don't confuse it with Ganju, that is the mountainous elevation above the grasslands of the Gansu region where Ganjia and the Takster farming village are located. I am using Sinkiang - Tibet Time Zone of 6:00. To be more exact I am using 6:44. both are E of GMT. The 6.44 measurement comes from Astrodatabank.com A slew of earlier charts I created with the 8:00 + E of GMT I have kept but consider them to be invalid because 8+ was not instituted until after the Chinese War of 1949. Also, I am using what Astrodatabank has recorded as a birth time of 04:38 Another fact that I just uncovered last evening is that even though in 1911 China used the Gregorian calender for some political reasons to adjust to other countries who were using the Gregorian calendar. China as a whole civilly and locally used the Chinese Calendar until 1949 when the Peoples Republic of China was created as a communist country after the Chinese War. The Chinese Calendar is based on both the lunar and solar movements of the sky astronomically. Therefore, it was often noted in their calendars where primarily the lunar month was taken more seriously and religiously, that many years there were TWO July's and August months. YIKES! I am trying to track down the calendar for 1935 through various government sources including the National Time Service Center, The Chinese Academy of Sciences for the People's Republic of China. Along with the Metro logy and Inspection Ministry of Economic Affairs for the Republic of China. who hold different standard time in the colonies. I also have a call into the JPLab which keeps time for all of NASA and most of the current (especially the Swiss Ephemeris) are based on today. Using the correct Longitude and Latitudes for the various cities - the LMT is registering different Sun Rises instead of the 06:03 time recorded by Astrodatabank. Which has contributed to the source of our current debate/divide/.discussion on the most accurate birth chart for DL based on this 06:03 Sun Rise. along with time zone used and city used. I believe Wendy has a very good and well substantiated reference that supports the 6:03 Sun Rise recorded with the U.S. Navel Observatory. Along i believe with her PL 200 giving a 06:03 Sun Rise . So to recap - this is what I am using: LMT Sun Rise per current longitude and Latitude of cities 6.44 Time Zone 6 July 1935 birthday 04:38 birth time Goravani is giving for Ganjia, China a 05:18:21 Sun Rise in the 6th Tithi Waxing Moon for a birth time of (03:38) Taurus 27* 35' He is giving a 05:18:32 Sun Rise in th 6th Tithi Waxing Moon for a birth time of (04:38) Gemini 11* 36' Both charts were calculated using a 6:44 Sinkiang-Tibet Time Zone. And both were calculated with the nearest town (Ganjia, China) to the DL's birthing village, Taktser, in the grasslands of the Gansu Region in the Shopane Valley of Amdo, where Xining is the Capital of modern day Qinghai. Goravani also notes that the Dalai Lama was born on a Friday. Jhora 7.02 is giving a Sun Rise of 04:48:17 ( 5 July) Ganjia, China 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) 102 E 30 35N 24 00 Lagna: 17 GE 38' 58.27" Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra Moon: 168 Leo 47' 48.57" Purva Phalguni/Ve This is the one I am currently using *********************************************** Other times equal the following by Jhora 7.02 who does have in its computer programming the latest update of the Swiss Ephemeris (if that helps any) 04:47:54 (5 July) Xining Shi, (or Sining, China) 101 E 46' 00" 36 N 37' 00" 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) Lagna: 17 GE 44' 01.79" Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra 04:56:43 (5 July) Ginghai, China 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" 04:38 (6:44 E of GMT) Lagna: 15 GE 44' 48.00" Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra ********************************************* I did calculate out to the birth hour for a Taurus Rising using the LMT of current Longitude and Latitude for Ganjia, China 6:44 E GMT I came up with the following: 04:48:17 (5 July) Sun Rise Ganjia, China 03:20 (6.44 E of GMT) 102 E 30 35 N 24 00 Lagna: 29* Taurus 52' 02.60" Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma Moon: 16 Leo 09' 20.36" Purva Phalguni/Ve ********************************************************* If one were to calculate the chart this way then: 06:30 Sun Rise Qinghai, China 04:38 ( 8:00 E of GMT ) 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" Lagna: 28 TA 13' 37.34" Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma ************************************************ Patrice, I think in this case it would be a great idea to interpret the chart from the Moon. It only moves 1* no matter what time or time zone or city is used , so it is pretty stable. It might allow us to overcome the stumbling blocks that we have all encountered thus far. In the meantime, I continue to research. I wrote to His Holiness's offices yesterday in India and I am hoping that with all the request that they receive, mine will be given some attention and a reply will be forth coming in the future. Hope the above information helps I now have enough charts and paperwork that I have researched that I am out the door to by a 6 inch hardbound 3 ring folder because my 4 inch one is full!!! Gad, I feel like I have traveled all of China and parts of Northern India from my desk. Visiting Dharamsala is sounding more and more intriguing as a across the globe trip to visit with His Holiness and take in all the spirituality of the area. I might have to settle for his trip to L.A. - U.S.A. middle of September though. )-: I don't see how I could ever make the trip to India by myself or without physical help. My stamina and physical agility aren't what they used to be. But, boy I sure would love to go. I would make a great trip for the group if we could managed it. Uttara * <> Terms of Service. _____ Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web. jyotish-vidya "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us......As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne Williamson New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Sean, //You also had written that the sages have said the natural karaka harms the bhava that has the same signification. Yet you've said nothing about Moon, the natural karaka for Mother, being in the house that signifies Mother. You only used that principle to discount what I wrote about Jupiter in 5th giving abundant disciples. If you are going to referrence a principle in order to discount what I have written, I think you should at least apply the principle in your interpretaion as well.// Moon in 4th is conjunct lagnesh Venus...Moon is NOT alone in this house! Unlike Jupiter in 5th for Gemini. As the sages say, the karaka, without benefic aspect, can harm its own house. Lagnesh Venus benefits this house greatly, as we've already discussed. We're told that well-placed Moon and Venus makes the native generous, kind and royal in nature. I ask you also to consider the aspect of YogaKaraka Saturn...and to consider the dictum that (natural) benefics in trishadaya houses are harmed. Of course we also have to consider the position and strength of their dispositor etc.. I ask you also Sean, to seriously consider the fact that 10th house (for Gemini) is unoccupied and receives only the aspect of F/M Mars...can you honestly say this describes the actions of the Dalai Lama in this world? I KNOW it doesn't!! //Wendy, you cut out what I've written about the indications of Mars in 4th from the quoted text. It would've been nice if you commented on that and if they were good points then acknowledge it.// Well, quite obviously, I would have commented if I'd thought they were valid points, don't you think? //Is this the same birth time you were using previously - when you were including pratyantardasas in your interpretrations of major life events?// As I said, Sean, due to the different time zone and sunrise time given in the new PL7 software, the T.O.B. is tentative (for now) until I've had a chance to confirm some events. But regardless, he was running the bhukti of 12th lord Mars (monasteries) in the dasa of Venus from Apr 1937 to May 1938 when he, barely two years old (I think, don't have the data at hand at the moment), was recognised as the Dalai Lama and taken to a nearby monastery. You may view my earlier post for more on this. //I didn't think I was "insisting" on anything - as I have said I am attempting to show how the Gemini lagna is reasonable as well. And what's with the comments like "you got that right at least"? It sounds condescending to me.// It is NOT reasonable Sean and if you were more seasoned in your studies you would know this! I'm well aware of the effect current transits can have on us all and more than aware that my patience is not what it should be at the moment...so before I run out of patience completely I'll leave this discussion here. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Dear Uttara, //I also have had the distinct feeling for a better part of a week now while researching, that the DL's birth chart could have been purposely changed when he was named the 14th Dalai Lama at age two, to reflect a better nakhastra in Lagna and Moon.// This is a valid point! Perhaps not quite for the reason you say though? It's well known that the exact birth time of well-known persons, leaders etc are deliberately concealed from the general public...for obvious reasons :-) Just try to get the birth time of Maharishi for instance...this is closely guarded! I was given it at one time by someone who (supposedly) had close contact with a personal astrologer of the Maharishi...but this too has to be doubtful. To my mind, the only way to ascertain the correct chart is through meticulous rectification...first determine the lagna and then adjust the time accordingly to reflect the events of life as per Vimsottari dasa. PS: This new software PL7 is (like all things new) taking some time to get familiar with. The places for China, for instance, don't include Tengster village so I had to enter the coordinates manually. But on the whole the software is quite brilliant and capable of so much more than PL2000. As always I don't put a lot of store in the Yogas section as many things that may nullify them are (obviously) not considered...but this has always been the case, no matter what software you use. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ - "Uttara" <muttaraphalguni <jyotish-vidya> Monday, March 27, 2006 11:39 AM RE: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion Namaste Hi Dear Patrice and All, Dear Patrice may I answer you kind letter at a later time? - In the meantime, I want to say I found your email very warming and interesting in all respects. About the information you have gathered from my birth chart - the short answer is yes, yes and yes. You are right on about everything. Well Done. I appreciate it. There is more I could elaborate on to your findings - but, I will leave it to another date - if you don't mind for the time being. In the meantime, after another serious setback this past Friday evening with my Mother, I am home for a change of clothing and a few hours rest. I couldn't help though, to sit at my computer for a while and once more pour over the printed ancient/historical China maps and topographic changes that have occurred in China since 1911 and more importantly since 1949. There have been many. I have many more references that i will share with the group at a later date , but for the moment what I wanted to convey - because I feel it is important is the following: In 1935 the time zone for the birth village the Dalai Lama's parent's were from and presumably where he was born, was on the edge of the Time Zone demarcations at the time. I have concluded that just East of the 6:00 Time Zone where in fact the Holy city of Lhasa was included - Taktser, a then farming village of the region of Tsongkha in the Northeastern Amdo province of China, where its nearest city is modern day Ganjia, does in fact rest in the 7:00 E GMT Kansu-Szechuan Time Zone. Further, the Kumbum Monastery at the time was keeper of records along with aiding the plight of the Lake area nomads in the horrific drought and whether conditions of the time. I would also guess that the Monastery being the main stay of the people was well institutionalized in knowledge and medical care along with religious endeavors and presiding rulers over the people in their domain. So, I would not be surprise if in fact, they had a birthing center or a high priest or priestess that aided or was called to a Midwife's side at birth. Kumbum rest at the time only as defined in the Amdo province. Since then it officially rest in the province of Qinghai, however, the size of Qinghai is similar to the size of the state of Texas in the USA and would at the time cover three time zones. Also, the village of Taktser in the Amdo province fell in the Golok region of Ganja. Taktser is located in the region of Tsongkha, which at the time was a war lord territory of the Golok region (county - district - whatever) and in fact was paid a large sum of money to allow the 2 yr old D.L. to leave and travel to Lhasa. The war lords were in-fighting with the religious of Kumbum Monastery and the Tibetan people for control. Today of course since 1949 even though much of the area that Qinghai covers was not under legal jurisdiction by the Peoples Republic of China until after 1959/60 - does fall - as the whole of China - minus their few southern colonies - in the 8:00 E GMT Time Zone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China http://www.tew.org/geography/historical.map4.html http://www.entew.org/geography/historical.map5.html http:www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/TibPages/Map/tibet-map3.gif http://enwikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tibet-claims.jpg I ran a few charts to see where we would be using a 7:00 E GMT Time Zone I used Ganjia, China. I ruled out Qinghai because of its wide breath in its province.. I ruled out Xining because it was to far west Kumbum is a monastery so there is no location for it in long or lat I ran a search for Golok area and came up with nothing I felt close in long or lat or in name for its area And the region of Tsongkha falls in the Ganjia city boundaries which is between the (counties?) of Golok and the eastern city of Choni with the Yellow river running between the two. This supports the background information on the biography of the Dalai Lama I also have had the distinct feeling for a better part of a week now while researching, that the DL's birth chart could have been purposely changed when he was named the 14th Dalai Lama at age two, to reflect a better nakhastra in Lagna and Moon. This feeling on top of the very real mis calculation of the interpretation of "just before" daylight or actual Sun rise from the midwife (who was the DL's older sister) or his mother. Labor and then birthing pre and post natal is not as easy or as accountable as one would think. There are a lot of factors that go into the actual time of birth for record keeping and remembering. I am guessing here, but I have a feeling that the Dalai Lama was a premature birth, small in size, and his mother had a long and difficult labor and delivery. I am saying that because of the conditions in which he was born, the drought and stress the family endured for 3 yrs; the fact that the mother was not well nourished through her pregnancy, the stress of the environment and the fact that her eldest daughter acted as midwife. This on top of the fact that even though the DL was his mother's fifth child he was only one of 16 who lived. It's just a guess but it was 1935 in the middle of a God forsaken drought dust bowl under the worse conditions for baby and mother/parents. The monastery in fact keep them from total starvation as on of 14 families that stayed behind when the other families all of 20 of them moved on. It could also be an explanation as to why the DL as a baby was "somber" as his mother quotes and was very attached to her and "not like the other children" as a baby and wee tot. It can also explain why when verbal he was packing his bags to go to Lhasa -as in a child's mind and probably hearing his parents - minic their wishes for a better life in the Holy city. Ganjia then becomes the closest city to the Kumbum Monastery and sits in the Lake region of the Tibetan plateau of Nomads in the grasslands of Gansu in the Amdo province of China.. 6 July 1935 5:04:17 Sun rise (5 July) 04:38:00 (7:00 East of GMT) 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' 00" (Ganjia, China) Lagna: 14 Ge 08' 35.12" Nakshatra Ardra/Ra Moon: 16 Leo 39' 55.11 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni **************************************************************** 03:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) Lagna: 0 Gemini 20' 56.76" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma Moon: 16 Leo 10' 19.55" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni **************************************************************** 03:35:00 (7:00 East GMT) Lagna: 29 TA 37' 33.28" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma Moon: 16 Leo 8' 50.77" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni **************************************************************** 03:08:00 (7:00 East GMT) Lagna: 22 TA 56' 11.39" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo Moon: 15 Leo 55' 31.73" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni *************************************************************** 02:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) Lagna: 15 TA 03' 51.49" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo Moon: 15 Leo 40' 43.87 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni *************************************************************** I also have contacts into The Shang-Shung Institute of America, which is located in Mass. USA and one of its faculty members a Dr. Kunchok Gyaltsen who is currently a doctoral student at the UCLA School of Public Health in Los Angeles, Ca U.S.A. I have contacts there that can network for me to reach him. His profile on the Shang-Shung Institute website is pretty impressive. http://www.shangshung.org/medicine/bio.php?kunchok&parent_nav=7 Hope the above information is helpful. I leave you in peace and continual discussion amongst yourselves.. As Always, Uttara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Dear Uttara, You have written >"So, I would not be surprised if in fact they had a birthing centre or a hugh priest or priestess that aided or was called to a Midwife's side at birth." I read another article which said that the eldest sister of DL assisted her mother at birth. The sister was 18 years old at the time. And interestingly, the sister is quoted as saying that the time of birth was 23.00 hrs. I don't wish to add to all the confusion , but the authenticity of all the information available is reliable. For whatever reasons, the exact birth time is not available. It is time to move on. Regards, Neena jyotish-vidya, Uttara <muttaraphalguni wrote: > > Namaste > > Hi Dear Patrice and All, > > Dear Patrice may I answer you kind letter at a later time? - In the meantime, I want to say I found your email very warming and interesting in all respects. About the information you have gathered from my birth chart - the short answer is yes, yes and yes. You are right on about everything. Well Done. I appreciate it. There is more I could elaborate on to your findings - but, I will leave it to another date - if you don't mind for the time being. > > In the meantime, after another serious setback this past Friday evening with my Mother, I am home for a change of clothing and a few hours rest. I couldn't help though, to sit at my computer for a while and once more pour over the printed ancient/historical China maps and topographic changes that have occurred in China since 1911 and more importantly since 1949. There have been many. I have many more references that i will share with the group at a later date , but for the moment what I wanted to convey - because I feel it is important is the following: > > In 1935 the time zone for the birth village the Dalai Lama's parent's were from and presumably where he was born, was on the edge of the Time Zone demarcations at the time. I have concluded that just East of the 6:00 Time Zone where in fact the Holy city of Lhasa was included - Taktser, a then farming village of the region of Tsongkha in the Northeastern Amdo province of China, where its nearest city is modern day Ganjia, does in fact rest in the 7:00 E GMT Kansu-Szechuan Time Zone. > > Further, the Kumbum Monastery at the time was keeper of records along with aiding the plight of the Lake area nomads in the horrific drought and whether conditions of the time. I would also guess that the Monastery being the main stay of the people was well institutionalized in knowledge and medical care along with religious endeavors and presiding rulers over the people in their domain. So, I would not be surprise if in fact, they had a birthing center or a high priest or priestess that aided or was called to a Midwife's side at birth. > > Kumbum rest at the time only as defined in the Amdo province. Since then it officially rest in the province of Qinghai, however, the size of Qinghai is similar to the size of the state of Texas in the USA and would at the time cover three time zones. > > Also, the village of Taktser in the Amdo province fell in the Golok region of Ganja. Taktser is located in the region of Tsongkha, which at the time was a war lord territory of the Golok region (county - district - whatever) and in fact was paid a large sum of money to allow the 2 yr old D.L. to leave and travel to Lhasa. The war lords were in-fighting with the religious of Kumbum Monastery and the Tibetan people for control. > > Today of course since 1949 even though much of the area that Qinghai covers was not under legal jurisdiction by the Peoples Republic of China until after 1959/60 - does fall - as the whole of China - minus their few southern colonies - in the 8:00 E GMT Time Zone. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China > http://www.tew.org/geography/historical.map4.html > http://www.entew.org/geography/historical.map5.html > http:www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/TibPages/Map/tibet-map3.gif > http://enwikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tibet-claims.jpg > > I ran a few charts to see where we would be using a 7:00 E GMT Time Zone > I used Ganjia, China. I ruled out Qinghai because of its wide breath in its province.. > I ruled out Xining because it was to far west > Kumbum is a monastery so there is no location for it in long or lat > I ran a search for Golok area and came up with nothing I felt close in long or lat or in name for its area > And the region of Tsongkha falls in the Ganjia city boundaries which is between the (counties?) of Golok and the eastern city of Choni with the Yellow river running between the two. This supports the background information on the biography of the Dalai Lama > > I also have had the distinct feeling for a better part of a week now while researching, that the DL's birth chart could have been purposely changed when he was named the 14th Dalai Lama at age two, to reflect a better nakhastra in Lagna and Moon. > > This feeling on top of the very real mis calculation of the interpretation of "just before" daylight or actual Sun rise from the midwife (who was the DL's older sister) or his mother. Labor and then birthing pre and post natal is not as easy or as accountable as one would think. There are a lot of factors that go into the actual time of birth for record keeping and remembering. > > I am guessing here, but I have a feeling that the Dalai Lama was a premature birth, small in size, and his mother had a long and difficult labor and delivery. I am saying that because of the conditions in which he was born, the drought and stress the family endured for 3 yrs; the fact that the mother was not well nourished through her pregnancy, the stress of the environment and the fact that her eldest daughter acted as midwife. This on top of the fact that even though the DL was his mother's fifth child he was only one of 16 who lived. It's just a guess but it was 1935 in the middle of a God forsaken drought dust bowl under the worse conditions for baby and mother/parents. The monastery in fact keep them from total starvation as on of 14 families that stayed behind when the other families all of 20 of them moved on. It could also be an explanation as to why the DL as a baby was "somber" as his mother quotes and was very attached to her and "not like the other children" as a > baby and wee tot. It can also explain why when verbal he was packing his bags to go to Lhasa -as in a child's mind and probably hearing his parents - minic their wishes for a better life in the Holy city. > > Ganjia then becomes the closest city to the Kumbum Monastery and sits in the Lake region of the Tibetan plateau of Nomads in the grasslands of Gansu in the Amdo province of China.. > > 6 July 1935 > 5:04:17 Sun rise (5 July) > 04:38:00 (7:00 East of GMT) > 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' 00" (Ganjia, China) > Lagna: 14 Ge 08' 35.12" Nakshatra Ardra/Ra > Moon: 16 Leo 39' 55.11 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > **************************************************************** > > 03:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 0 Gemini 20' 56.76" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma > Moon: 16 Leo 10' 19.55" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > **************************************************************** > > 03:35:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 29 TA 37' 33.28" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma > Moon: 16 Leo 8' 50.77" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > **************************************************************** > > 03:08:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 22 TA 56' 11.39" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo > Moon: 15 Leo 55' 31.73" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > *************************************************************** > > 02:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 15 TA 03' 51.49" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo > Moon: 15 Leo 40' 43.87 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > *************************************************************** > > I also have contacts into The Shang-Shung Institute of America, which is located in Mass. USA and one of its faculty members a Dr. Kunchok Gyaltsen who is currently a doctoral student at the UCLA School of Public Health in Los Angeles, Ca U.S.A. I have contacts there that can network for me to reach him. His profile on the Shang-Shung Institute website is pretty impressive. > > http://www.shangshung.org/medicine/bio.php?kunchok&parent_nav=7 > > Hope the above information is helpful. > > I leave you in peace and continual discussion amongst yourselves.. > > As Always, > > Uttara > > > > > Patrice Curry <patricecurry wrote: > Hello Dear Uttara, Neena and List, > > > > Man, you are so very thorough! Very impressive Uttara ;-) > > > > I'm very sorry to hear the condition of your mother and this continued > struggle. It's wonderful that you are sharing the wishes sent to her via the > list. Please give her my best once again and wishes for all the gentleness > of the heavens to be with her at this time. > > > > I was concerned fo your mother over the lunar eclipse and it would be > interesting to take a look at her chart via the eclipse. You had already > reported all the health issues, and I wondered how that eclipse might affect > her. > > > > Last month when I returned on here, after reading your posts, I had to check > your chart again and was curious about Virgo - As you well know that being > your Lagna, made me smile. It's interesting too that Mercury goes to your > 12H conjoined with Ketu. (In your Navamsha chart, Virgo goes to the 8th > house, and with Ketu there. ;-)) Rasi - Sun owns this 12H, with Mercury and > Ketu, and your Saturn in 1H , Sun/Saturn are in Parivartana at the nakshatra > level. Also interesting that you are in this Saturn/Ketu period, and if your > time and info is all correct, in Saturn/Ketu/Rahu currently. > > > > Research itself in my significator books lists: Uranus, Aquarius, Mercury, > Mars, Scorpio, 12H and 3H. Research involving mathmatics: Saturn. Hmmmm, > Scorpio is also your 3H and this Saturn in your 1st. Mars being in your 10H. > as well as Mars Star lord Jupiter in 7H, Wendy has taught me 7H can be > another house to check for careers. Mars owning 8th as well as 3rd.Uttara, > do you use your great skills for other work - career wise as well? This Ketu > involved shows for this for Jyotish . Do you think so too? Saturn's > moolatrikona house Aquarius is your 6th. Do you do research for health > issues too - work/worked in hospitals? Again, Jyotish does not use the outer > planets, but interestingly here again we see Uranus in your 10H conjoined > with this Mars mentioned above. > > > > Interesting they haven't listed Virgo there, as I have seen this and as in > your case where it's clear Virgo is an important component of your drive and > exactness in this research and why I had guessed Virgo for you. Perhaps the > 'perfectionism' of Virgo. > > > > Having three planets in Virgo myself, and my Lagna lord Sun conjoined with > Moon in Scorpio (Moon own 12H), Mercury in 5H Pisces, and Jupiter as chart > final depositor in 8H, I also enjoy this kind of research. > > > > I still am without time - and one might think brains as well - as I recently > had a puppy sent to us. egads. She is lovely and the handful one would > expect. It would have been wiser to wait until fully moved in here, etc. > rested from my visitors and my nephew staying with us while looking to move > here. (My nephew has returned to Ohio this week.) We decided to get this > puppy now as our girls (two dogs) are getting very old for their breed, > living very long lives, and we've had them since puppies. One has some > growths, etc. so we decided to take advantage of the opportunity for this > puppy as our girls are a big part of our lives getting outside, walking, > etc.. So my point is, for a number of reasons I've been unable still to > participate too much on our wonderful list. > > > > The Dalai Lama also visits here in DC regularly - another possibility to see > him here in the US. He was here not too long ago. I also have missed the > opportunities to see him. A great organization with lots of information is: > International Campaign for Tibet, www.savetibet.org > <http://www.savetibet.org/> - they are located here in DC. I always enjoy > their beautiful calendars. > > > > I think the Moon chart is a great chart to use in this case, (Hi dear Neena, > yes, I did see your suggestion in another post - I will respond to it next.) > as well as in others where the time of birth is difficult. It's a good > learning experience and also a great reminder that we should look at the > Chandra Lagna as well as the Rasi when doing other charts in any depth, at > least a great reminder for me. It is great also with our own families and > grandparents, or great grandparents. and makes for some interesting study if > there is interest in a specific family member no longer with us and we wish > to understand or know more when we don't have their time of birth. But as > Neena and you have said, in this particular chart, as Moon doesn't change > much on either side of the time or location and is very stable, therefore > including his actual correct time of birth, his chart is an excellent > example to use via Chandra Lagna. Being that he is Bodhisattva of > Compassion, I like that we're looking so strongly from Moon, and although > Moon is not directly listed in my book as a significator of compassion, it > certainly is highly important in any compassionate nature, don't you think. > > > > I love the idea for a trip to Dharamsala! Thanks Uttara, for your response > to my post and giving me so much information on the data for this chart. > > Kindest regards, > > Patrice > > > > > > _____ > > jyotish-vidya [jyotish- vidya] > On Behalf Of Uttara > Friday, March 24, 2006 6:02 PM > jyotish-vidya > RE: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion > > > > * Hi Patrice, > > Great to see your email. > > My mother is gravely ill and continues to struggle. Although, I am home > this afternoon for a much needed break and eventually some sound sleep. > > The Dalai Lama's Chart is quite fascinating and complex. It is also a > very difficult challenge to sort out what is the best timing to use for his > birth. > > This afternoon, as a diversion to all the personal chaos in my life right > now, I find digging into the Dalai Lama's chart for verification on birth > time, via China's time 1935 along with all its political havoc, a tiring but > useful time of my attention. I continue to question just how China > recorded time in 1935. There seems to be new evidence that I have > uncovered, that conflicting cities were used at the time for birth > recording. It seems to be a very wide diverse recording problem across > China and not one just relegated to JV. > > Now to complicate matters, I am finding out that the various computer > programs used, are listing Sun rise differently from others. This makes > everything so much more complicated and frustrating. > > Wendy, has just purchased the newest edition of PL and is uploading it > this weekend. I am anxious to her from her what PL 7 will give as a Sun > rise. > > In the meantime, I have been using the following co-ordinates while I > construct different time charts and different city charts along with > different Time Zone charts. > > This is what I am using. I can not say what others are using. > > Takster farming village 's nearest city = Ganjia. 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' > 00" > > Don't confuse it with Ganju, that is the mountainous elevation above the > grasslands of the Gansu region where Ganjia and the Takster farming village > are located. > > I am using Sinkiang - Tibet Time Zone of 6:00. To be more exact I am > using 6:44. > both are E of GMT. > > The 6.44 measurement comes from Astrodatabank.com > > A slew of earlier charts I created with the 8:00 + E of GMT I have kept > but consider them to be invalid because 8+ was not instituted until after > the Chinese War of 1949. > > Also, I am using what Astrodatabank has recorded as a birth time of 04:38 > > Another fact that I just uncovered last evening is that even though in > 1911 China used the Gregorian calender for some political reasons to adjust > to other countries who were using the Gregorian calendar. China as a whole > civilly and locally used the Chinese Calendar until 1949 when the Peoples > Republic of China was created as a communist country after the Chinese War. > > The Chinese Calendar is based on both the lunar and solar movements of the > sky astronomically. Therefore, it was often noted in their calendars where > primarily the lunar month was taken more seriously and religiously, that > many years there were TWO July's and August months. YIKES! > > I am trying to track down the calendar for 1935 through various government > sources including the National Time Service Center, The Chinese Academy of > Sciences for the People's Republic of China. Along with the Metro logy and > Inspection Ministry of Economic Affairs for the Republic of China. who hold > different standard time in the colonies. I also have a call into the JPLab > which keeps time for all of NASA and most of the current (especially the > Swiss Ephemeris) are based on today. > > Using the correct Longitude and Latitudes for the various cities - the LMT > is registering different Sun Rises instead of the 06:03 time recorded by > Astrodatabank. Which has contributed to the source of our current > debate/divide/.discussion on the most accurate birth chart for DL based on > this 06:03 Sun Rise. along with time zone used and city used. I believe > Wendy has a very good and well substantiated reference that supports the > 6:03 Sun Rise recorded with the U.S. Navel Observatory. Along i believe > with her PL 200 giving a 06:03 Sun Rise . > > So to recap - this is what I am using: > > LMT Sun Rise per current longitude and Latitude of cities > 6.44 Time Zone > 6 July 1935 birthday > 04:38 birth time > > > Goravani is giving for Ganjia, China a 05:18:21 Sun Rise in the 6th Tithi > Waxing Moon for a birth time of (03:38) Taurus 27* 35' > He is giving a 05:18:32 Sun Rise in th 6th Tithi Waxing Moon for a birth > time of (04:38) Gemini 11* 36' > > Both charts were calculated using a 6:44 Sinkiang-Tibet Time Zone. And > both were calculated with the nearest town (Ganjia, China) to the DL's > birthing village, Taktser, in the grasslands of the Gansu Region in the > Shopane Valley of Amdo, where Xining is the Capital of modern day Qinghai. > Goravani also notes that the Dalai Lama was born on a Friday. > > Jhora 7.02 is giving a Sun Rise of > > 04:48:17 ( 5 July) > Ganjia, China > 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) > 102 E 30 35N 24 00 > Lagna: 17 GE 38' 58.27" > Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra > Moon: 168 Leo 47' 48.57" Purva Phalguni/Ve > > This is the one I am currently using > > *********************************************** > > Other times equal the following by Jhora 7.02 > who does have in its computer programming the latest update of the Swiss > Ephemeris (if that helps any) > > 04:47:54 (5 July) > Xining Shi, (or Sining, China) > 101 E 46' 00" 36 N 37' 00" > 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) > Lagna: 17 GE 44' 01.79" > Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra > > 04:56:43 (5 July) > Ginghai, China > 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" > 04:38 (6:44 E of GMT) > Lagna: 15 GE 44' 48.00" > Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra > > ********************************************* > > I did calculate out to the birth hour for a Taurus Rising using the > LMT of current Longitude and Latitude for Ganjia, China > 6:44 E GMT > > I came up with the following: > > 04:48:17 (5 July) Sun Rise > Ganjia, China > 03:20 (6.44 E of GMT) > 102 E 30 35 N 24 00 > Lagna: 29* Taurus 52' 02.60" > Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma > Moon: 16 Leo 09' 20.36" Purva Phalguni/Ve > > ********************************************************* > > If one were to calculate the chart this way then: > > 06:30 Sun Rise > Qinghai, China > 04:38 ( 8:00 E of GMT ) > 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" > Lagna: 28 TA 13' 37.34" > Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma > > ************************************************ > > Patrice, I think in this case it would be a great idea to interpret the > chart from the Moon. It only moves 1* no matter what time or time zone or > city is used , so it is pretty stable. > > It might allow us to overcome the stumbling blocks that we have all > encountered thus far. > > In the meantime, I continue to research. I wrote to His Holiness's > offices yesterday in India and I am hoping that with all the request that > they receive, mine will be given some attention and a reply will be forth > coming in the future. > > Hope the above information helps I now have enough charts and paperwork > that I have researched that I am out the door to by a 6 inch hardbound 3 > ring folder because my 4 inch one is full!!! Gad, I feel like I have > traveled all of China and parts of Northern India from my desk. Visiting > Dharamsala is sounding more and more intriguing as a across the globe trip > to visit with His Holiness and take in all the spirituality of the area. I > might have to settle for his trip to L.A. - U.S.A. middle of September > though. )-: > > I don't see how I could ever make the trip to India by myself or without > physical help. My stamina and physical agility aren't what they used to be. > But, boy I sure would love to go. > > I would make a great trip for the group if we could managed it. > > Uttara > > > > > > * > <> Terms of Service. > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web. > > > jyotish-vidya > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us......As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne Williamson > > > > > New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 jyotish-vidya, "neenako" <neenako wrote: > > > Dear Uttara, > > You have written > >"So, I would not be surprised if in fact they had a birthing > centre or a hugh priest or priestess that aided or was called to a > Midwife's side at birth." > > I read another article which said that the eldest sister of DL > assisted her mother at birth. The sister was 18 years old at the > time. > And interestingly, the sister is quoted as saying that the time of > birth was 23.00 hrs. > I don't wish to add to all the confusion , but > the authenticity of all the information available is not reliable. > For whatever reasons, the exact birth time is not available. It is > time to move on. > > Regards, > Neena > jyotish-vidya, Uttara <muttaraphalguni@> > wrote: > > > > Namaste > > > > Hi Dear Patrice and All, > > > > Dear Patrice may I answer you kind letter at a later time? - In > the meantime, I want to say I found your email very warming and > interesting in all respects. About the information you have > gathered from my birth chart - the short answer is yes, yes and > yes. You are right on about everything. Well Done. I appreciate > it. There is more I could elaborate on to your findings - but, I > will leave it to another date - if you don't mind for the time being. > > > > In the meantime, after another serious setback this past Friday > evening with my Mother, I am home for a change of clothing and a few > hours rest. I couldn't help though, to sit at my computer for a > while and once more pour over the printed ancient/historical China > maps and topographic changes that have occurred in China since 1911 > and more importantly since 1949. There have been many. I have many > more references that i will share with the group at a later date , > but for the moment what I wanted to convey - because I feel it is > important is the following: > > > > In 1935 the time zone for the birth village the Dalai Lama's > parent's were from and presumably where he was born, was on the edge > of the Time Zone demarcations at the time. I have concluded that > just East of the 6:00 Time Zone where in fact the Holy city of Lhasa > was included - Taktser, a then farming village of the region of > Tsongkha in the Northeastern Amdo province of China, where its > nearest city is modern day Ganjia, does in fact rest in the 7:00 E > GMT Kansu-Szechuan Time Zone. > > > > Further, the Kumbum Monastery at the time was keeper of records > along with aiding the plight of the Lake area nomads in the horrific > drought and whether conditions of the time. I would also guess > that the Monastery being the main stay of the people was well > institutionalized in knowledge and medical care along with religious > endeavors and presiding rulers over the people in their domain. So, > I would not be surprise if in fact, they had a birthing center or a > high priest or priestess that aided or was called to a Midwife's > side at birth. > > > > Kumbum rest at the time only as defined in the Amdo province. > Since then it officially rest in the province of Qinghai, however, > the size of Qinghai is similar to the size of the state of Texas in > the USA and would at the time cover three time zones. > > > > Also, the village of Taktser in the Amdo province fell in the > Golok region of Ganja. Taktser is located in the region of > Tsongkha, which at the time was a war lord territory of the Golok > region (county - district - whatever) and in fact was paid a large > sum of money to allow the 2 yr old D.L. to leave and travel to > Lhasa. The war lords were in-fighting with the religious of Kumbum > Monastery and the Tibetan people for control. > > > > Today of course since 1949 even though much of the area that > Qinghai covers was not under legal jurisdiction by the Peoples > Republic of China until after 1959/60 - does fall - as the whole of > China - minus their few southern colonies - in the 8:00 E GMT Time > Zone. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China > > http://www.tew.org/geography/historical.map4.html > > http://www.entew.org/geography/historical.map5.html > > http:www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/TibPages/Map/tibet-map3.gif > > http://enwikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tibet-claims.jpg > > > > I ran a few charts to see where we would be using a 7:00 E GMT > Time Zone > > I used Ganjia, China. I ruled out Qinghai because of its wide > breath in its province.. > > I ruled out Xining because it was to far west > > Kumbum is a monastery so there is no location for it in long or > lat > > I ran a search for Golok area and came up with nothing I felt > close in long or lat or in name for its area > > And the region of Tsongkha falls in the Ganjia city boundaries > which is between the (counties?) of Golok and the eastern city of > Choni with the Yellow river running between the two. This supports > the background information on the biography of the Dalai Lama > > > > I also have had the distinct feeling for a better part of a week > now while researching, that the DL's birth chart could have been > purposely changed when he was named the 14th Dalai Lama at age two, > to reflect a better nakhastra in Lagna and Moon. > > > > This feeling on top of the very real mis calculation of the > interpretation of "just before" daylight or actual Sun rise from the > midwife (who was the DL's older sister) or his mother. Labor and > then birthing pre and post natal is not as easy or as accountable as > one would think. There are a lot of factors that go into the actual > time of birth for record keeping and remembering. > > > > I am guessing here, but I have a feeling that the Dalai Lama was > a premature birth, small in size, and his mother had a long and > difficult labor and delivery. I am saying that because of the > conditions in which he was born, the drought and stress the family > endured for 3 yrs; the fact that the mother was not well nourished > through her pregnancy, the stress of the environment and the fact > that her eldest daughter acted as midwife. This on top of the fact > that even though the DL was his mother's fifth child he was only > one of 16 who lived. It's just a guess but it was 1935 in the > middle of a God forsaken drought dust bowl under the worse > conditions for baby and mother/parents. The monastery in fact keep > them from total starvation as on of 14 families that stayed behind > when the other families all of 20 of them moved on. It could also be > an explanation as to why the DL as a baby was "somber" as his mother > quotes and was very attached to her and "not like the other > children" as a > > baby and wee tot. It can also explain why when verbal he was > packing his bags to go to Lhasa -as in a child's mind and probably > hearing his parents - minic their wishes for a better life in the > Holy city. > > > > Ganjia then becomes the closest city to the Kumbum Monastery and > sits in the Lake region of the Tibetan plateau of Nomads in the > grasslands of Gansu in the Amdo province of China.. > > > > 6 July 1935 > > 5:04:17 Sun rise (5 July) > > 04:38:00 (7:00 East of GMT) > > 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' 00" (Ganjia, China) > > Lagna: 14 Ge 08' 35.12" Nakshatra Ardra/Ra > > Moon: 16 Leo 39' 55.11 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > > > **************************************************************** > > > > 03:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) > > Lagna: 0 Gemini 20' 56.76" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma > > Moon: 16 Leo 10' 19.55" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > > > **************************************************************** > > > > 03:35:00 (7:00 East GMT) > > Lagna: 29 TA 37' 33.28" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma > > Moon: 16 Leo 8' 50.77" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > > > **************************************************************** > > > > 03:08:00 (7:00 East GMT) > > Lagna: 22 TA 56' 11.39" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo > > Moon: 15 Leo 55' 31.73" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > > > *************************************************************** > > > > 02:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) > > Lagna: 15 TA 03' 51.49" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo > > Moon: 15 Leo 40' 43.87 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > > > *************************************************************** > > > > I also have contacts into The Shang-Shung Institute of America, > which is located in Mass. USA and one of its faculty members a Dr. > Kunchok Gyaltsen who is currently a doctoral student at the UCLA > School of Public Health in Los Angeles, Ca U.S.A. I have contacts > there that can network for me to reach him. His profile on the > Shang-Shung Institute website is pretty impressive. > > > > http://www.shangshung.org/medicine/bio.php?kunchok&parent_nav=7 > > > > Hope the above information is helpful. > > > > I leave you in peace and continual discussion amongst > yourselves.. > > > > As Always, > > > > Uttara > > > > > > > > > > Patrice Curry <patricecurry@> wrote: > > Hello Dear Uttara, Neena and List, > > > > > > > > Man, you are so very thorough! Very impressive Uttara ;-) > > > > > > > > I'm very sorry to hear the condition of your mother and this > continued > > struggle. It's wonderful that you are sharing the wishes sent to > her via the > > list. Please give her my best once again and wishes for all the > gentleness > > of the heavens to be with her at this time. > > > > > > > > I was concerned fo your mother over the lunar eclipse and it would > be > > interesting to take a look at her chart via the eclipse. You had > already > > reported all the health issues, and I wondered how that eclipse > might affect > > her. > > > > > > > > Last month when I returned on here, after reading your posts, I > had to check > > your chart again and was curious about Virgo - As you well know > that being > > your Lagna, made me smile. It's interesting too that Mercury goes > to your > > 12H conjoined with Ketu. (In your Navamsha chart, Virgo goes to > the 8th > > house, and with Ketu there. ;-)) Rasi - Sun owns this 12H, with > Mercury and > > Ketu, and your Saturn in 1H , Sun/Saturn are in Parivartana at the > nakshatra > > level. Also interesting that you are in this Saturn/Ketu period, > and if your > > time and info is all correct, in Saturn/Ketu/Rahu currently. > > > > > > > > Research itself in my significator books lists: Uranus, Aquarius, > Mercury, > > Mars, Scorpio, 12H and 3H. Research involving mathmatics: Saturn. > Hmmmm, > > Scorpio is also your 3H and this Saturn in your 1st. Mars being in > your 10H. > > as well as Mars Star lord Jupiter in 7H, Wendy has taught me 7H > can be > > another house to check for careers. Mars owning 8th as well as > 3rd.Uttara, > > do you use your great skills for other work - career wise as well? > This Ketu > > involved shows for this for Jyotish . Do you think so too? Saturn's > > moolatrikona house Aquarius is your 6th. Do you do research for > health > > issues too - work/worked in hospitals? Again, Jyotish does not use > the outer > > planets, but interestingly here again we see Uranus in your 10H > conjoined > > with this Mars mentioned above. > > > > > > > > Interesting they haven't listed Virgo there, as I have seen this > and as in > > your case where it's clear Virgo is an important component of your > drive and > > exactness in this research and why I had guessed Virgo for you. > Perhaps the > > 'perfectionism' of Virgo. > > > > > > > > Having three planets in Virgo myself, and my Lagna lord Sun > conjoined with > > Moon in Scorpio (Moon own 12H), Mercury in 5H Pisces, and Jupiter > as chart > > final depositor in 8H, I also enjoy this kind of research. > > > > > > > > I still am without time - and one might think brains as well - as > I recently > > had a puppy sent to us. egads. She is lovely and the handful one > would > > expect. It would have been wiser to wait until fully moved in > here, etc. > > rested from my visitors and my nephew staying with us while > looking to move > > here. (My nephew has returned to Ohio this week.) We decided to > get this > > puppy now as our girls (two dogs) are getting very old for their > breed, > > living very long lives, and we've had them since puppies. One has > some > > growths, etc. so we decided to take advantage of the opportunity > for this > > puppy as our girls are a big part of our lives getting outside, > walking, > > etc.. So my point is, for a number of reasons I've been unable > still to > > participate too much on our wonderful list. > > > > > > > > The Dalai Lama also visits here in DC regularly - another > possibility to see > > him here in the US. He was here not too long ago. I also have > missed the > > opportunities to see him. A great organization with lots of > information is: > > International Campaign for Tibet, www.savetibet.org > > <http://www.savetibet.org/> - they are located here in DC. I > always enjoy > > their beautiful calendars. > > > > > > > > I think the Moon chart is a great chart to use in this case, (Hi > dear Neena, > > yes, I did see your suggestion in another post - I will respond to > it next.) > > as well as in others where the time of birth is difficult. It's a > good > > learning experience and also a great reminder that we should look > at the > > Chandra Lagna as well as the Rasi when doing other charts in any > depth, at > > least a great reminder for me. It is great also with our own > families and > > grandparents, or great grandparents. and makes for some > interesting study if > > there is interest in a specific family member no longer with us > and we wish > > to understand or know more when we don't have their time of birth. > But as > > Neena and you have said, in this particular chart, as Moon doesn't > change > > much on either side of the time or location and is very stable, > therefore > > including his actual correct time of birth, his chart is an > excellent > > example to use via Chandra Lagna. Being that he is Bodhisattva of > > Compassion, I like that we're looking so strongly from Moon, and > although > > Moon is not directly listed in my book as a significator of > compassion, it > > certainly is highly important in any compassionate nature, don't > you think. > > > > > > > > I love the idea for a trip to Dharamsala! Thanks Uttara, for your > response > > to my post and giving me so much information on the data for this > chart. > > > > Kindest regards, > > > > Patrice > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > jyotish-vidya [jyotish- > vidya] > > On Behalf Of Uttara > > Friday, March 24, 2006 6:02 PM > > jyotish-vidya > > RE: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion > > > > > > > > * Hi Patrice, > > > > Great to see your email. > > > > My mother is gravely ill and continues to struggle. Although, I > am home > > this afternoon for a much needed break and eventually some sound > sleep. > > > > The Dalai Lama's Chart is quite fascinating and complex. It is > also a > > very difficult challenge to sort out what is the best timing to > use for his > > birth. > > > > This afternoon, as a diversion to all the personal chaos in my > life right > > now, I find digging into the Dalai Lama's chart for verification > on birth > > time, via China's time 1935 along with all its political havoc, a > tiring but > > useful time of my attention. I continue to question just how > China > > recorded time in 1935. There seems to be new evidence that I have > > uncovered, that conflicting cities were used at the time for birth > > recording. It seems to be a very wide diverse recording problem > across > > China and not one just relegated to JV. > > > > Now to complicate matters, I am finding out that the various > computer > > programs used, are listing Sun rise differently from others. This > makes > > everything so much more complicated and frustrating. > > > > Wendy, has just purchased the newest edition of PL and is > uploading it > > this weekend. I am anxious to her from her what PL 7 will give as > a Sun > > rise. > > > > In the meantime, I have been using the following co-ordinates > while I > > construct different time charts and different city charts along > with > > different Time Zone charts. > > > > This is what I am using. I can not say what others are using. > > > > Takster farming village 's nearest city = Ganjia. 102 E 30' 00" > 35 N 24' > > 00" > > > > Don't confuse it with Ganju, that is the mountainous elevation > above the > > grasslands of the Gansu region where Ganjia and the Takster > farming village > > are located. > > > > I am using Sinkiang - Tibet Time Zone of 6:00. To be more exact > I am > > using 6:44. > > both are E of GMT. > > > > The 6.44 measurement comes from Astrodatabank.com > > > > A slew of earlier charts I created with the 8:00 + E of GMT I > have kept > > but consider them to be invalid because 8+ was not instituted > until after > > the Chinese War of 1949. > > > > Also, I am using what Astrodatabank has recorded as a birth time > of 04:38 > > > > Another fact that I just uncovered last evening is that even > though in > > 1911 China used the Gregorian calender for some political reasons > to adjust > > to other countries who were using the Gregorian calendar. China > as a whole > > civilly and locally used the Chinese Calendar until 1949 when the > Peoples > > Republic of China was created as a communist country after the > Chinese War. > > > > The Chinese Calendar is based on both the lunar and solar > movements of the > > sky astronomically. Therefore, it was often noted in their > calendars where > > primarily the lunar month was taken more seriously and > religiously, that > > many years there were TWO July's and August months. YIKES! > > > > I am trying to track down the calendar for 1935 through various > government > > sources including the National Time Service Center, The Chinese > Academy of > > Sciences for the People's Republic of China. Along with the Metro > logy and > > Inspection Ministry of Economic Affairs for the Republic of > China. who hold > > different standard time in the colonies. I also have a call into > the JPLab > > which keeps time for all of NASA and most of the current > (especially the > > Swiss Ephemeris) are based on today. > > > > Using the correct Longitude and Latitudes for the various > cities - the LMT > > is registering different Sun Rises instead of the 06:03 time > recorded by > > Astrodatabank. Which has contributed to the source of our current > > debate/divide/.discussion on the most accurate birth chart for DL > based on > > this 06:03 Sun Rise. along with time zone used and city used. I > believe > > Wendy has a very good and well substantiated reference that > supports the > > 6:03 Sun Rise recorded with the U.S. Navel Observatory. Along i > believe > > with her PL 200 giving a 06:03 Sun Rise . > > > > So to recap - this is what I am using: > > > > LMT Sun Rise per current longitude and Latitude of cities > > 6.44 Time Zone > > 6 July 1935 birthday > > 04:38 birth time > > > > > > Goravani is giving for Ganjia, China a 05:18:21 Sun Rise in the > 6th Tithi > > Waxing Moon for a birth time of (03:38) Taurus 27* 35' > > He is giving a 05:18:32 Sun Rise in th 6th Tithi Waxing Moon for > a birth > > time of (04:38) Gemini 11* 36' > > > > Both charts were calculated using a 6:44 Sinkiang-Tibet Time > Zone. And > > both were calculated with the nearest town (Ganjia, China) to the > DL's > > birthing village, Taktser, in the grasslands of the Gansu Region > in the > > Shopane Valley of Amdo, where Xining is the Capital of modern day > Qinghai. > > Goravani also notes that the Dalai Lama was born on a Friday. > > > > Jhora 7.02 is giving a Sun Rise of > > > > 04:48:17 ( 5 July) > > Ganjia, China > > 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) > > 102 E 30 35N 24 00 > > Lagna: 17 GE 38' 58.27" > > Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra > > Moon: 168 Leo 47' 48.57" Purva Phalguni/Ve > > > > This is the one I am currently using > > > > *********************************************** > > > > Other times equal the following by Jhora 7.02 > > who does have in its computer programming the latest update of > the Swiss > > Ephemeris (if that helps any) > > > > 04:47:54 (5 July) > > Xining Shi, (or Sining, China) > > 101 E 46' 00" 36 N 37' 00" > > 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) > > Lagna: 17 GE 44' 01.79" > > Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra > > > > 04:56:43 (5 July) > > Ginghai, China > > 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" > > 04:38 (6:44 E of GMT) > > Lagna: 15 GE 44' 48.00" > > Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra > > > > ********************************************* > > > > I did calculate out to the birth hour for a Taurus Rising using > the > > LMT of current Longitude and Latitude for Ganjia, China > > 6:44 E GMT > > > > I came up with the following: > > > > 04:48:17 (5 July) Sun Rise > > Ganjia, China > > 03:20 (6.44 E of GMT) > > 102 E 30 35 N 24 00 > > Lagna: 29* Taurus 52' 02.60" > > Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma > > Moon: 16 Leo 09' 20.36" Purva Phalguni/Ve > > > > ********************************************************* > > > > If one were to calculate the chart this way then: > > > > 06:30 Sun Rise > > Qinghai, China > > 04:38 ( 8:00 E of GMT ) > > 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" > > Lagna: 28 TA 13' 37.34" > > Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma > > > > ************************************************ > > > > Patrice, I think in this case it would be a great idea to > interpret the > > chart from the Moon. It only moves 1* no matter what time or time > zone or > > city is used , so it is pretty stable. > > > > It might allow us to overcome the stumbling blocks that we have > all > > encountered thus far. > > > > In the meantime, I continue to research. I wrote to His > Holiness's > > offices yesterday in India and I am hoping that with all the > request that > > they receive, mine will be given some attention and a reply will > be forth > > coming in the future. > > > > Hope the above information helps I now have enough charts and > paperwork > > that I have researched that I am out the door to by a 6 inch > hardbound 3 > > ring folder because my 4 inch one is full!!! Gad, I feel like I > have > > traveled all of China and parts of Northern India from my desk. > Visiting > > Dharamsala is sounding more and more intriguing as a across the > globe trip > > to visit with His Holiness and take in all the spirituality of the > area. I > > might have to settle for his trip to L.A. - U.S.A. middle of > September > > though. )-: > > > > I don't see how I could ever make the trip to India by myself or > without > > physical help. My stamina and physical agility aren't what they > used to be. > > But, boy I sure would love to go. > > > > I would make a great trip for the group if we could managed it. > > > > Uttara > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > <> Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web. > > > > > > jyotish-vidya > > > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our > deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our > light, not our darkness, that most frightens us......As we let our > own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do > the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence > automatically liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne > Williamson > > > > > > > > > > New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC > and save big. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Dear Neena and All, In two of your earlier posts you advocated strongly for delineating and interpreting the Dalai Lama' Chart from the Chandra Lagna. Patrice also went into great detail as to why she thought interpreting the chart from this position as well, would be a good learning experience for the group. I have been in agreement for well over a week. I believe, I also said I thought it better to wait for Wendy's preference and go ahead. Wendy's latest post reflects the continuation of rectification per the vimshottari Dasas - whether it is taken up as a group on JV or something one does on their own - wasn't clear. But her point was to rectify the chart starting with establishing the Lagna from life experiences to obtain a birth time.. I think it is a matter of what the group on JV and Wendy want to do. All I have done in the last few weeks , as you know, is supply as much accurate information I could get my hands on - correcting it where it was inaccurate, and only in my last post offered a suggestion to support the conditions surrounding his birth . Other than that, I feel it would be great to continue the discussion of the DL's chart through the Chandra Lagna if that is what others want to do. My participation is complete with the data references supplied for all to study if they so wish.. As Always, Uttara. neenako <neenako wrote: Dear Uttara, You have written >"So, I would not be surprised if in fact they had a birthing centre or a hugh priest or priestess that aided or was called to a Midwife's side at birth." I read another article which said that the eldest sister of DL assisted her mother at birth. The sister was 18 years old at the time. And interestingly, the sister is quoted as saying that the time of birth was 23.00 hrs. I don't wish to add to all the confusion , but the authenticity of all the information available is reliable. For whatever reasons, the exact birth time is not available. It is time to move on. Regards, Neena jyotish-vidya, Uttara <muttaraphalguni wrote: > > Namaste > > Hi Dear Patrice and All, > > Dear Patrice may I answer you kind letter at a later time? - In the meantime, I want to say I found your email very warming and interesting in all respects. About the information you have gathered from my birth chart - the short answer is yes, yes and yes. You are right on about everything. Well Done. I appreciate it. There is more I could elaborate on to your findings - but, I will leave it to another date - if you don't mind for the time being. > > In the meantime, after another serious setback this past Friday evening with my Mother, I am home for a change of clothing and a few hours rest. I couldn't help though, to sit at my computer for a while and once more pour over the printed ancient/historical China maps and topographic changes that have occurred in China since 1911 and more importantly since 1949. There have been many. I have many more references that i will share with the group at a later date , but for the moment what I wanted to convey - because I feel it is important is the following: > > In 1935 the time zone for the birth village the Dalai Lama's parent's were from and presumably where he was born, was on the edge of the Time Zone demarcations at the time. I have concluded that just East of the 6:00 Time Zone where in fact the Holy city of Lhasa was included - Taktser, a then farming village of the region of Tsongkha in the Northeastern Amdo province of China, where its nearest city is modern day Ganjia, does in fact rest in the 7:00 E GMT Kansu-Szechuan Time Zone. > > Further, the Kumbum Monastery at the time was keeper of records along with aiding the plight of the Lake area nomads in the horrific drought and whether conditions of the time. I would also guess that the Monastery being the main stay of the people was well institutionalized in knowledge and medical care along with religious endeavors and presiding rulers over the people in their domain. So, I would not be surprise if in fact, they had a birthing center or a high priest or priestess that aided or was called to a Midwife's side at birth. > > Kumbum rest at the time only as defined in the Amdo province. Since then it officially rest in the province of Qinghai, however, the size of Qinghai is similar to the size of the state of Texas in the USA and would at the time cover three time zones. > > Also, the village of Taktser in the Amdo province fell in the Golok region of Ganja. Taktser is located in the region of Tsongkha, which at the time was a war lord territory of the Golok region (county - district - whatever) and in fact was paid a large sum of money to allow the 2 yr old D.L. to leave and travel to Lhasa. The war lords were in-fighting with the religious of Kumbum Monastery and the Tibetan people for control. > > Today of course since 1949 even though much of the area that Qinghai covers was not under legal jurisdiction by the Peoples Republic of China until after 1959/60 - does fall - as the whole of China - minus their few southern colonies - in the 8:00 E GMT Time Zone. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China > http://www.tew.org/geography/historical.map4.html > http://www.entew.org/geography/historical.map5.html > http:www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/TibPages/Map/tibet-map3.gif > http://enwikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tibet-claims.jpg > > I ran a few charts to see where we would be using a 7:00 E GMT Time Zone > I used Ganjia, China. I ruled out Qinghai because of its wide breath in its province.. > I ruled out Xining because it was to far west > Kumbum is a monastery so there is no location for it in long or lat > I ran a search for Golok area and came up with nothing I felt close in long or lat or in name for its area > And the region of Tsongkha falls in the Ganjia city boundaries which is between the (counties?) of Golok and the eastern city of Choni with the Yellow river running between the two. This supports the background information on the biography of the Dalai Lama > > I also have had the distinct feeling for a better part of a week now while researching, that the DL's birth chart could have been purposely changed when he was named the 14th Dalai Lama at age two, to reflect a better nakhastra in Lagna and Moon. > > This feeling on top of the very real mis calculation of the interpretation of "just before" daylight or actual Sun rise from the midwife (who was the DL's older sister) or his mother. Labor and then birthing pre and post natal is not as easy or as accountable as one would think. There are a lot of factors that go into the actual time of birth for record keeping and remembering. > > I am guessing here, but I have a feeling that the Dalai Lama was a premature birth, small in size, and his mother had a long and difficult labor and delivery. I am saying that because of the conditions in which he was born, the drought and stress the family endured for 3 yrs; the fact that the mother was not well nourished through her pregnancy, the stress of the environment and the fact that her eldest daughter acted as midwife. This on top of the fact that even though the DL was his mother's fifth child he was only one of 16 who lived. It's just a guess but it was 1935 in the middle of a God forsaken drought dust bowl under the worse conditions for baby and mother/parents. The monastery in fact keep them from total starvation as on of 14 families that stayed behind when the other families all of 20 of them moved on. It could also be an explanation as to why the DL as a baby was "somber" as his mother quotes and was very attached to her and "not like the other children" as a > baby and wee tot. It can also explain why when verbal he was packing his bags to go to Lhasa -as in a child's mind and probably hearing his parents - minic their wishes for a better life in the Holy city. > > Ganjia then becomes the closest city to the Kumbum Monastery and sits in the Lake region of the Tibetan plateau of Nomads in the grasslands of Gansu in the Amdo province of China.. > > 6 July 1935 > 5:04:17 Sun rise (5 July) > 04:38:00 (7:00 East of GMT) > 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' 00" (Ganjia, China) > Lagna: 14 Ge 08' 35.12" Nakshatra Ardra/Ra > Moon: 16 Leo 39' 55.11 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > **************************************************************** > > 03:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 0 Gemini 20' 56.76" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma > Moon: 16 Leo 10' 19.55" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > **************************************************************** > > 03:35:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 29 TA 37' 33.28" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma > Moon: 16 Leo 8' 50.77" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > **************************************************************** > > 03:08:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 22 TA 56' 11.39" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo > Moon: 15 Leo 55' 31.73" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > *************************************************************** > > 02:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 15 TA 03' 51.49" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo > Moon: 15 Leo 40' 43.87 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > *************************************************************** > > I also have contacts into The Shang-Shung Institute of America, which is located in Mass. USA and one of its faculty members a Dr. Kunchok Gyaltsen who is currently a doctoral student at the UCLA School of Public Health in Los Angeles, Ca U.S.A. I have contacts there that can network for me to reach him. His profile on the Shang-Shung Institute website is pretty impressive. > > http://www.shangshung.org/medicine/bio.php?kunchok&parent_nav=7 > > Hope the above information is helpful. > > I leave you in peace and continual discussion amongst yourselves.. > > As Always, > > Uttara > > > > > Patrice Curry <patricecurry wrote: > Hello Dear Uttara, Neena and List, > > > > Man, you are so very thorough! Very impressive Uttara ;-) > > > > I'm very sorry to hear the condition of your mother and this continued > struggle. It's wonderful that you are sharing the wishes sent to her via the > list. Please give her my best once again and wishes for all the gentleness > of the heavens to be with her at this time. > > > > I was concerned fo your mother over the lunar eclipse and it would be > interesting to take a look at her chart via the eclipse. You had already > reported all the health issues, and I wondered how that eclipse might affect > her. > > > > Last month when I returned on here, after reading your posts, I had to check > your chart again and was curious about Virgo - As you well know that being > your Lagna, made me smile. It's interesting too that Mercury goes to your > 12H conjoined with Ketu. (In your Navamsha chart, Virgo goes to the 8th > house, and with Ketu there. ;-)) Rasi - Sun owns this 12H, with Mercury and > Ketu, and your Saturn in 1H , Sun/Saturn are in Parivartana at the nakshatra > level. Also interesting that you are in this Saturn/Ketu period, and if your > time and info is all correct, in Saturn/Ketu/Rahu currently. > > > > Research itself in my significator books lists: Uranus, Aquarius, Mercury, > Mars, Scorpio, 12H and 3H. Research involving mathmatics: Saturn. Hmmmm, > Scorpio is also your 3H and this Saturn in your 1st. Mars being in your 10H. > as well as Mars Star lord Jupiter in 7H, Wendy has taught me 7H can be > another house to check for careers. Mars owning 8th as well as 3rd.Uttara, > do you use your great skills for other work - career wise as well? This Ketu > involved shows for this for Jyotish . Do you think so too? Saturn's > moolatrikona house Aquarius is your 6th. Do you do research for health > issues too - work/worked in hospitals? Again, Jyotish does not use the outer > planets, but interestingly here again we see Uranus in your 10H conjoined > with this Mars mentioned above. > > > > Interesting they haven't listed Virgo there, as I have seen this and as in > your case where it's clear Virgo is an important component of your drive and > exactness in this research and why I had guessed Virgo for you. Perhaps the > 'perfectionism' of Virgo. > > > > Having three planets in Virgo myself, and my Lagna lord Sun conjoined with > Moon in Scorpio (Moon own 12H), Mercury in 5H Pisces, and Jupiter as chart > final depositor in 8H, I also enjoy this kind of research. > > > > I still am without time - and one might think brains as well - as I recently > had a puppy sent to us. egads. She is lovely and the handful one would > expect. It would have been wiser to wait until fully moved in here, etc. > rested from my visitors and my nephew staying with us while looking to move > here. (My nephew has returned to Ohio this week.) We decided to get this > puppy now as our girls (two dogs) are getting very old for their breed, > living very long lives, and we've had them since puppies. One has some > growths, etc. so we decided to take advantage of the opportunity for this > puppy as our girls are a big part of our lives getting outside, walking, > etc.. So my point is, for a number of reasons I've been unable still to > participate too much on our wonderful list. > > > > The Dalai Lama also visits here in DC regularly - another possibility to see > him here in the US. He was here not too long ago. I also have missed the > opportunities to see him. A great organization with lots of information is: > International Campaign for Tibet, www.savetibet.org > <http://www.savetibet.org/> - they are located here in DC. I always enjoy > their beautiful calendars. > > > > I think the Moon chart is a great chart to use in this case, (Hi dear Neena, > yes, I did see your suggestion in another post - I will respond to it next.) > as well as in others where the time of birth is difficult. It's a good > learning experience and also a great reminder that we should look at the > Chandra Lagna as well as the Rasi when doing other charts in any depth, at > least a great reminder for me. It is great also with our own families and > grandparents, or great grandparents. and makes for some interesting study if > there is interest in a specific family member no longer with us and we wish > to understand or know more when we don't have their time of birth. But as > Neena and you have said, in this particular chart, as Moon doesn't change > much on either side of the time or location and is very stable, therefore > including his actual correct time of birth, his chart is an excellent > example to use via Chandra Lagna. Being that he is Bodhisattva of > Compassion, I like that we're looking so strongly from Moon, and although > Moon is not directly listed in my book as a significator of compassion, it > certainly is highly important in any compassionate nature, don't you think. > > > > I love the idea for a trip to Dharamsala! Thanks Uttara, for your response > to my post and giving me so much information on the data for this chart. > > Kindest regards, > > Patrice > > > > > > _____ > > jyotish-vidya [jyotish- vidya] > On Behalf Of Uttara > Friday, March 24, 2006 6:02 PM > jyotish-vidya > RE: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion > > > > * Hi Patrice, > > Great to see your email. > > My mother is gravely ill and continues to struggle. Although, I am home > this afternoon for a much needed break and eventually some sound sleep. > > The Dalai Lama's Chart is quite fascinating and complex. It is also a > very difficult challenge to sort out what is the best timing to use for his > birth. > > This afternoon, as a diversion to all the personal chaos in my life right > now, I find digging into the Dalai Lama's chart for verification on birth > time, via China's time 1935 along with all its political havoc, a tiring but > useful time of my attention. I continue to question just how China > recorded time in 1935. There seems to be new evidence that I have > uncovered, that conflicting cities were used at the time for birth > recording. It seems to be a very wide diverse recording problem across > China and not one just relegated to JV. > > Now to complicate matters, I am finding out that the various computer > programs used, are listing Sun rise differently from others. This makes > everything so much more complicated and frustrating. > > Wendy, has just purchased the newest edition of PL and is uploading it > this weekend. I am anxious to her from her what PL 7 will give as a Sun > rise. > > In the meantime, I have been using the following co-ordinates while I > construct different time charts and different city charts along with > different Time Zone charts. > > This is what I am using. I can not say what others are using. > > Takster farming village 's nearest city = Ganjia. 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' > 00" > > Don't confuse it with Ganju, that is the mountainous elevation above the > grasslands of the Gansu region where Ganjia and the Takster farming village > are located. > > I am using Sinkiang - Tibet Time Zone of 6:00. To be more exact I am > using 6:44. > both are E of GMT. > > The 6.44 measurement comes from Astrodatabank.com > > A slew of earlier charts I created with the 8:00 + E of GMT I have kept > but consider them to be invalid because 8+ was not instituted until after > the Chinese War of 1949. > > Also, I am using what Astrodatabank has recorded as a birth time of 04:38 > > Another fact that I just uncovered last evening is that even though in > 1911 China used the Gregorian calender for some political reasons to adjust > to other countries who were using the Gregorian calendar. China as a whole > civilly and locally used the Chinese Calendar until 1949 when the Peoples > Republic of China was created as a communist country after the Chinese War. > > The Chinese Calendar is based on both the lunar and solar movements of the > sky astronomically. Therefore, it was often noted in their calendars where > primarily the lunar month was taken more seriously and religiously, that > many years there were TWO July's and August months. YIKES! > > I am trying to track down the calendar for 1935 through various government > sources including the National Time Service Center, The Chinese Academy of > Sciences for the People's Republic of China. Along with the Metro logy and > Inspection Ministry of Economic Affairs for the Republic of China. who hold > different standard time in the colonies. I also have a call into the JPLab > which keeps time for all of NASA and most of the current (especially the > Swiss Ephemeris) are based on today. > > Using the correct Longitude and Latitudes for the various cities - the LMT > is registering different Sun Rises instead of the 06:03 time recorded by > Astrodatabank. Which has contributed to the source of our current > debate/divide/.discussion on the most accurate birth chart for DL based on > this 06:03 Sun Rise. along with time zone used and city used. I believe > Wendy has a very good and well substantiated reference that supports the > 6:03 Sun Rise recorded with the U.S. Navel Observatory. Along i believe > with her PL 200 giving a 06:03 Sun Rise . > > So to recap - this is what I am using: > > LMT Sun Rise per current longitude and Latitude of cities > 6.44 Time Zone > 6 July 1935 birthday > 04:38 birth time > > > Goravani is giving for Ganjia, China a 05:18:21 Sun Rise in the 6th Tithi > Waxing Moon for a birth time of (03:38) Taurus 27* 35' > He is giving a 05:18:32 Sun Rise in th 6th Tithi Waxing Moon for a birth > time of (04:38) Gemini 11* 36' > > Both charts were calculated using a 6:44 Sinkiang-Tibet Time Zone. And > both were calculated with the nearest town (Ganjia, China) to the DL's > birthing village, Taktser, in the grasslands of the Gansu Region in the > Shopane Valley of Amdo, where Xining is the Capital of modern day Qinghai. > Goravani also notes that the Dalai Lama was born on a Friday. > > Jhora 7.02 is giving a Sun Rise of > > 04:48:17 ( 5 July) > Ganjia, China > 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) > 102 E 30 35N 24 00 > Lagna: 17 GE 38' 58.27" > Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra > Moon: 168 Leo 47' 48.57" Purva Phalguni/Ve > > This is the one I am currently using > > *********************************************** > > Other times equal the following by Jhora 7.02 > who does have in its computer programming the latest update of the Swiss > Ephemeris (if that helps any) > > 04:47:54 (5 July) > Xining Shi, (or Sining, China) > 101 E 46' 00" 36 N 37' 00" > 04:38 (6.44 E of GMT) > Lagna: 17 GE 44' 01.79" > Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra > > 04:56:43 (5 July) > Ginghai, China > 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" > 04:38 (6:44 E of GMT) > Lagna: 15 GE 44' 48.00" > Nakshatra: Ardra/Ra > > ********************************************* > > I did calculate out to the birth hour for a Taurus Rising using the > LMT of current Longitude and Latitude for Ganjia, China > 6:44 E GMT > > I came up with the following: > > 04:48:17 (5 July) Sun Rise > Ganjia, China > 03:20 (6.44 E of GMT) > 102 E 30 35 N 24 00 > Lagna: 29* Taurus 52' 02.60" > Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma > Moon: 16 Leo 09' 20.36" Purva Phalguni/Ve > > ********************************************************* > > If one were to calculate the chart this way then: > > 06:30 Sun Rise > Qinghai, China > 04:38 ( 8:00 E of GMT ) > 106 E 04' 30" 25 N 48' 30" > Lagna: 28 TA 13' 37.34" > Nakshatra: Mrigashira/Ma > > ************************************************ > > Patrice, I think in this case it would be a great idea to interpret the > chart from the Moon. It only moves 1* no matter what time or time zone or > city is used , so it is pretty stable. > > It might allow us to overcome the stumbling blocks that we have all > encountered thus far. > > In the meantime, I continue to research. I wrote to His Holiness's > offices yesterday in India and I am hoping that with all the request that > they receive, mine will be given some attention and a reply will be forth > coming in the future. > > Hope the above information helps I now have enough charts and paperwork > that I have researched that I am out the door to by a 6 inch hardbound 3 > ring folder because my 4 inch one is full!!! Gad, I feel like I have > traveled all of China and parts of Northern India from my desk. Visiting > Dharamsala is sounding more and more intriguing as a across the globe trip > to visit with His Holiness and take in all the spirituality of the area. I > might have to settle for his trip to L.A. - U.S.A. middle of September > though. )-: > > I don't see how I could ever make the trip to India by myself or without > physical help. My stamina and physical agility aren't what they used to be. > But, boy I sure would love to go. > > I would make a great trip for the group if we could managed it. > > Uttara > > > > > > * > <> Terms of Service. > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web. > > > jyotish-vidya > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us......As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne Williamson > > > > > New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. > > > Vedic astrology Personal reading Astrology chart Astrology software Visit your group "jyotish-vidya" on the web. jyotish-vidya "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us......As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." from A Return To Love: by Marianne Williamson Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Dear Uttara, //Wendy's latest post reflects the continuation of rectification per the vimshottari Dasas - whether it is taken up as a group on JV or something one does on their own - wasn't clear. But her point was to rectify the chart starting with establishing the Lagna from life experiences to obtain a birth time..// My comment was simply that, due to the conflicting birth data, the only way to arrive at a correct time would be through rectification. However, if you (or anyone else) want to study the chart from Chandra lagna, why not :-) //I think it is a matter of what the group on JV and Wendy want to do. All I have done in the last few weeks , as you know, is supply as much accurate information I could get my hands on - correcting it where it was inaccurate, and only in my last post offered a suggestion to support the conditions surrounding his birth.// You've worked extremely hard, Uttara, and we all (myself particularly) are appreciative of that... //Other than that, I feel it would be great to continue the discussion of the DL's chart through the Chandra Lagna if that is what others want to do.// I think that's a good idea and I look forward to seeing what members have to offer from this perspective. PS: The nakshatra information you've provided (below) is certainly worth looking into. Unfortunately I've not been able to spare the time today... hopefully tomorrow. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ > 6 July 1935 > 5:04:17 Sun rise (5 July) > 04:38:00 (7:00 East of GMT) > 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' 00" (Ganjia, China) > Lagna: 14 Ge 08' 35.12" Nakshatra Ardra/Ra > Moon: 16 Leo 39' 55.11 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > **************************************************************** > > 03:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 0 Gemini 20' 56.76" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma > Moon: 16 Leo 10' 19.55" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > **************************************************************** > > 03:35:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 29 TA 37' 33.28" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma > Moon: 16 Leo 8' 50.77" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > **************************************************************** > > 03:08:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 22 TA 56' 11.39" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo > Moon: 15 Leo 55' 31.73" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > *************************************************************** > > 02:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) > Lagna: 15 TA 03' 51.49" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo > Moon: 15 Leo 40' 43.87 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > *************************************************************** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 - Dear Wendy, Thanks for putting together all the different times/time zones and coordinates of place of birth that have come up in the course of our discussions on DL's horoscope. This makes it so much easier to study the same. The Moon in all the cases lies between 15* and 16*39'. This gives a vargottama Moon, thus enhancing our case for studying the horoscope from the Moon sign. Moon is stronger. In any case the vimshottari dasas are also from the Moon, so we will get a fairly correct analysis of the timing of the events of his life. What do you say? Would like to hear on this from other list members too. Regards, Neena -- In jyotish-vidya, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish wrote: > > Dear Uttara, > > //Wendy's latest post reflects the continuation of rectification per > the vimshottari Dasas - whether it is taken up as a group on JV or > something one does on their own - wasn't clear. But her point was to > rectify the chart starting with establishing the Lagna from life > experiences to obtain a birth time..// > > My comment was simply that, due to the conflicting birth data, the > only way to arrive at a correct time would be through rectification. > However, if you (or anyone else) want to study the chart from Chandra > lagna, why not :-) > > //I think it is a matter of what the group on JV and Wendy want to > do. All I have done in the last few weeks , as you know, is supply as > much accurate information I could get my hands on - correcting it > where it was inaccurate, and only in my last post offered a > suggestion to support the conditions surrounding his birth.// > > You've worked extremely hard, Uttara, and we all (myself > particularly) are appreciative of that... > > //Other than that, I feel it would be great to continue the > discussion of the DL's chart through the Chandra Lagna if that is > what others want to do.// > > I think that's a good idea and I look forward to seeing what members > have to offer from this perspective. > > PS: The nakshatra information you've provided (below) is certainly > worth looking into. Unfortunately I've not been able to spare the > time today... hopefully tomorrow. > > Best Wishes, > Mrs. Wendy > http://JyotishVidya.com > ______________________________ > > > 6 July 1935 > > 5:04:17 Sun rise (5 July) > > 04:38:00 (7:00 East of GMT) > > 102 E 30' 00" 35 N 24' 00" (Ganjia, China) > > Lagna: 14 Ge 08' 35.12" Nakshatra Ardra/Ra > > Moon: 16 Leo 39' 55.11 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > > > **************************************************************** > > > > 03:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) > > Lagna: 0 Gemini 20' 56.76" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma > > Moon: 16 Leo 10' 19.55" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > > > **************************************************************** > > > > 03:35:00 (7:00 East GMT) > > Lagna: 29 TA 37' 33.28" Nakshatra Mrigashira/Ma > > Moon: 16 Leo 8' 50.77" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > > > **************************************************************** > > > > 03:08:00 (7:00 East GMT) > > Lagna: 22 TA 56' 11.39" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo > > Moon: 15 Leo 55' 31.73" Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > > > *************************************************************** > > > > 02:38:00 (7:00 East GMT) > > Lagna: 15 TA 03' 51.49" Nakshatra Rohini/Mo > > Moon: 15 Leo 40' 43.87 Nakshatra Purva Phalguni > > > > *************************************************************** > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Namaste jyotish-vidya, "neenako" <neenako wrote: > > > Dear Uttara, > > You have written > >"So, I would not be surprised if in fact they had a birthing > centre or a hugh priest or priestess that aided or was called to a > Midwife's side at birth." > > I read another article which said that the eldest sister of DL > assisted her mother at birth. The sister was 18 years old at the > time. > And interestingly, the sister is quoted as saying that the time of > birth was 23.00 hrs. > I don't wish to add to all the confusion , but > the authenticity of all the information available is reliable. > For whatever reasons, the exact birth time is not available. It is > time to move on. Neena, that time would give a Pisces lagna which gives an interesting perspective. But I agree it sounds like a good idea to move on. I will bow out of the discussion for now. If the birth time is ever confirmed I'm sure we'll hear about it. This discussion has been informative and I really appreciate all the time that went into it -- thanks to all who have contributed and who continue to contribute their input and especially to Wendy and Uttara. Take it easy, Sean Om Shanti Shanti Shanti: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 - Yes, Sean, 23.00 hrs is a totally different lagna. If you can handle a little more confusion, another site ( I don't remember for sure but it was probably kozmikhoroscopes) which mentions the time as 11-45 a.m. Therefore my suggestion was to study this horoscope from the Moon sign which remains the same throughout. Please don't bow out of the discussion, your views are also very important. Maybe you can point out some facts which we may be overlooking. As they say, ' two heads are better than one'. As ever, Neena -- In jyotish-vidya, "Sean Patrick Kelly" <toosean wrote: > > Namaste > > jyotish-vidya, "neenako" <neenako@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Uttara, > > > > You have written > > >"So, I would not be surprised if in fact they had a birthing > > centre or a hugh priest or priestess that aided or was called to a > > Midwife's side at birth." > > > > I read another article which said that the eldest sister of DL > > assisted her mother at birth. The sister was 18 years old at the > > time. > > And interestingly, the sister is quoted as saying that the time of > > birth was 23.00 hrs. > > I don't wish to add to all the confusion , but > > the authenticity of all the information available is reliable. > > For whatever reasons, the exact birth time is not available. It is > > time to move on. > > Neena, that time would give a Pisces lagna which gives an interesting > perspective. But I agree it sounds like a good idea to move on. I > will bow out of the discussion for now. If the birth time is ever > confirmed I'm sure we'll hear about it. This discussion has been > informative and I really appreciate all the time that went into it -- > thanks to all who have contributed and who continue to contribute > their input and especially to Wendy and Uttara. > > Take it easy, > Sean > > Om Shanti Shanti Shanti: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Dear Neena, //What do you say? Would like to hear on this from other list members too.// Absolutely! I'm looking forward to it :-) Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ - "neenako" <neenako <jyotish-vidya> Monday, March 27, 2006 11:56 PM Re: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion - Dear Wendy, Thanks for putting together all the different times/time zones and coordinates of place of birth that have come up in the course of our discussions on DL's horoscope. This makes it so much easier to study the same. The Moon in all the cases lies between 15* and 16*39'. This gives a vargottama Moon, thus enhancing our case for studying the horoscope from the Moon sign. Moon is stronger. In any case the vimshottari dasas are also from the Moon, so we will get a fairly correct analysis of the timing of the events of his life. What do you say? Would like to hear on this from other list members too. Regards, Neena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Hi Neena, I too am looking forward to this! Kindest wishes, Patrice _____ jyotish-vidya [jyotish-vidya] On Behalf Of Wendy Vasicek Tuesday, March 28, 2006 12:50 AM jyotish-vidya Re: Re: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion Dear Neena, //What do you say? Would like to hear on this from other list members too.// Absolutely! I'm looking forward to it :-) Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ______________________________ - "neenako" <neenako <jyotish-vidya> Monday, March 27, 2006 11:56 PM Re: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion - Dear Wendy, Thanks for putting together all the different times/time zones and coordinates of place of birth that have come up in the course of our discussions on DL's horoscope. This makes it so much easier to study the same. The Moon in all the cases lies between 15* and 16*39'. This gives a vargottama Moon, thus enhancing our case for studying the horoscope from the Moon sign. Moon is stronger. In any case the vimshottari dasas are also from the Moon, so we will get a fairly correct analysis of the timing of the events of his life. What do you say? Would like to hear on this from other list members too. Regards, Neena _____ * Visit your group "jyotish-vidya <jyotish-vidya> " on the web. * jyotish-vidya <jyotish-vidya?subject=Un> * <> Terms of Service. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 - Dear Wendy, Patrice and all, The moon rasi is very strong due to Moon being vargottama. From the rasi, Venus is 10th lord situated in rasi with the moon. This makes him intelligent, learned and wealthy. Moon also makes him a good conversationalist, a good orator and ofcourse religious. Most importantly, in this chart both Sun and Saturn receive the aspect of GURU (Jupiter). Irrespective of the ascendant, this placement remains. jupiters aspect to the Sun in the sign of Mercury is responsible for his great knowlegde of scriptures. While we were having the discussion on whether DL's asc. was Gemini or Taurus, I found that Taurus asc with Mercury in the 2nd house shows the poor state of his family but it also showed that he would be learned, softspoken intelligent. Sun's situation in the 2nd house gives affliction to eyes. Ketu in the 2nd house also points to poor financial state of his family at birth. This is not corroborated by Gemini lagna. >From Leo Rasi the placement of Saturn in mooltrikon in the 7th house shows great following that he has, globally. The whole picture would have been different if Jupiter's aspect was not there on this Saturn. the mutual aspect of the 10th lord Venus and 7th lord Saturn reflect his acheivements against all odds, including the Nobel peace prize. I am still studying other aspects of the chart and will come back soon. In the meanwhile would like to hear your views on the subject too. As ever, Neena -- In jyotish-vidya, "Patrice Curry" <patricecurry wrote: > > Hi Neena, > > > > I too am looking forward to this! > > > > Kindest wishes, > > Patrice > > > > _____ > > jyotish-vidya [jyotish- vidya] > On Behalf Of Wendy Vasicek > Tuesday, March 28, 2006 12:50 AM > jyotish-vidya > Re: Re: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion > > > > Dear Neena, > > //What do you say? Would like to hear on this from other list members > too.// > > Absolutely! I'm looking forward to it :-) > > Best Wishes, > Mrs. Wendy > http://JyotishVidya.com > ______________________________ > > - > "neenako" <neenako > <jyotish-vidya> > Monday, March 27, 2006 11:56 PM > Re: The Dalai Lama and its Discussion > > > - > Dear Wendy, > > Thanks for putting together all the different times/time zones and > coordinates of place of birth that have come up in the course of our > discussions on DL's horoscope. > > This makes it so much easier to study the same. > > The Moon in all the cases lies between 15* and 16*39'. > > This gives a vargottama Moon, thus enhancing our case for studying > the horoscope from the Moon sign. Moon is stronger. > > In any case the vimshottari dasas are also from the Moon, so we will > get a fairly correct analysis of the timing of the events of his > life. > > What do you say? Would like to hear on this from other list members > too. > > Regards, > > Neena > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > * Visit your group "jyotish-vidya > <jyotish-vidya> " on the web. > > * > jyotish-vidya > <jyotish-vidya? subject=Un> > > * > <> Terms of Service. > > > > _____ > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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