Srimad Bhagavad Gita Chapter 15 and Sri Pradeep's Query

[Guest guest]

Before this chapter Sri Krishna talks about the nature of Samsara to help Arjuna

develop dispassion. However, there is a dilemma here - we must have dispassion

to appreciate that there is no moksha in samsara, and, we must understand that

there is no moksha in samsara in order to have dispassion. To resolve the same,

and help Arjuna develop dispassion, Bhagwan is presenting essentials of Samsara.

The definition of samsara is - Erroneous knowledge about Reality, which is

caused by the ignorance of OneSelf. Here Bhagwan Krishna deals with the Self,

sarvatatma, jagat -the world, jive - the root cause. And reveals later that

what is eater, the one who eats, etc. are all nothing but Paramatma. This

chapter - "Yoga of the whole Person" is a very important chapter of Srimad

Bhagavad Gita. Traditionally, in ashrama across the country, it is chanted

before taking meals.

So in the first verse, Bhagwan Krishna likens the samsara to a tree and explains

through the verse 5, how one can understand One's Real Self. In Verse 6, he

tells the following:

na tadhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakahyadgatva na nivartante taddhama paramam mama

Neither the sun, moon or fire illumine that which, having gone to, they do not

return. That is my limitless abode. Sun, Moon and Fire is illumined by Brahman.

They cannot illumine the Brahman itself. It is like shinning a torch to Sun.

Therefore, the Self effulgent Brahman abode is limitless. When it is called

Limitless, it does not have parts. Part is defined by something that isn't a

part. Plus part has boundaries, which means you are talking of it in space.

When Brahman is beyond space and time, no part can be there. So there is no

amsha in Brahman and for Consciousness we do not need any other entity to

illumine it. Consciousness is Self effulgent. It illumines the Sun too. In this

verse, "the going" means understanding of the Self as the Lord. There is no

other going. There is no place where Brahman is not, so there is no going!!!

Brahman is Limitless as no concept of space and time shall apply to it. Having

undertood, this verse, the Lord continues to the next one - This is also Sri

Pradeep's query- "mamaivamso jivaloke jivabhutah sanatanahmanahsasthan

indriyani parkritshani karsati""

In the individual's world, a part of me alone becoming the eternal individual,

draws to itself the sense organs that have as their sixth, the mind, which

abide in the material cause, prakriti.

Amsa means fraction. The one who has become a jiva, is like a part of bhagavan.

The meaning is Jiva is not some other object which is not Brahman. The Lord is

removing the doubt of the individual, that is jivatma is separate from Brahman

and of some other material than Brahman!

Understand this with its preceding verse. Jivaloka is wht is experienced by a

given Jiva. It is not the world of jivas but the world of a Jiva. In the world,

he understands himself as the karta and as an experiencer, bokta, with reference

to a given body. This is likened in the Upanishad to reflection of the sun in

many buckets of water. Can many reflections be called many Atmas? The light of

the Atma being reflected in your mind, or my mind, or Sri Sreenadh's mind, is

not different. It is the same Atman. The same Sun. Now, reflection is totally

dependent upon the Sun but Sun is not dependent for its existence on the bucket

or the reflection. (Currently the example is of Bucket as the physical sarira,

and water in it as the mind - do not extend it to mean that mind is water and

sthoola sarira is bucket - see the teaching) In the reflection, the totality of

what is reflected is seen. You do not see a mere part of it. Therefore you see

time and space as limitless as their base is limitless Brahman. Yet you project

certain qualities on them, and that is the mithya. Now again, I am explaining -

Amsha if it is there is subject to time, space and causation. In other words,

it can be destroyed. And that which is built of many amshas is also subject to

change. Change can occur only in time and space. Brahman =Atman, is beyond time

and space. Therefore, it cannot be amsha of the parmatma. Jivatma, therefore,

refers to the individual perception and Lord is clearing that individual

perception. Since it is the avidya of Brahman,that is causing this judgment,

Sri Krishna has already explained that in Chapter 13, that only through

ignorance that you can say Atma is limited. Read the earlier verse again - How

do they do not come back after having gone to Bhagavan? They are not separate

from him at any time and were seemingly a part of him until they realized they

were the whole. When the ignorance is gone, the product jivatma is also gone.

The concept is gone!

Om poornamadah poornamidam poornaatpoornamudachyate, Poornasya poornamaadaaya

poornamevaavashishyate. Om shaantih shaantih shaantih! References are many for

the above, but you may also study:Chapter 13.2

ksetrajnam capi mam viddhi saraksetresu bharataksetraksetrajnaanam yattajjnanam

matam mamaO Descendant of Bharata, Arjuna, and also may you know me as the

knower of the body in all the bodies. That which is knowledge of the body and

the knower of the body, is knowledge. This is my vision

.. Lord is not just kshetrjna in one given body but in all, sarva-khetresu.You

have also mentioned Chapter 6 verse 15yunjannevam sadatmanam yogi niyatamanasah

santim nirvanaparamaam matsamsthamadhigacchatiAlways connecting the mind in this

manner, the meditator, the one whose mind is mastered gains peace, the

absorption in Me that is liberation

Here Sri Krishna is explaining the ultimate end to be discovered as a result of

Dhyanayoga. And how does one connect the mind to the Svarupa ot Atma? Through

contemplative words one can connect mind to Atma. We are currently doing it!

Like the mind can appreciate time though it does not have an objectified

reality, similarly the mind can have dhyana through word (word is a sound and

part of creation, yet one can have dhyana for the word and the silence

thereafter). Many such upasana techniques are given in the Upanishads. To have

such a mind, is like absorbed in the Atma. This is like saying mind is absorbed

in an interesting book. So when mind is absorbed in the Atman, the Guru's

sayings, speech or the book's words are absorbed by the person. The Person can

absorb this knowledge and knowledge brings peace. Such a person understands

that Shantih is Atma bodha, which is not dependent upon the mind. Remember the

reflection is dependent upon the Sun and not the opposite. One can see mind

also as an object. It dissociates the mind to any sorrow, etc. This is a

different shanti than the one induced by anaesthetics and when mind gets a

repreive between two agitated states. This is a shantih because dependence upon

the mind is not there for shantih. Here, this shantih is the very nature of

Atman and that is the aborption in Me, which is liberation from ashanti (a

superimosition upon Atma due to avidya).Please remember, in Chapter 6, Bhagwan

is talking about conditions that make a life of contemplation possible. Having

said the above, I do not want this subject going into a

explanation of the entire bhagavad Gita. You are most welcome to study

it.

It is very clear, that wrong understanding of the above verses have led you to

believe in Amsha theory. If you see our discussion right from the beginning - I

have commented on all of your contentions and given logical and sastra reasons.

You have avoided most of my questions or have given statments such - All

answers in Bhagavad Gita.So many questions such as anandamaya kosha and all the

questions of Kshetam remain unanswered. Furthermore, you yourself have said that

you do not claim to understand these texts. I understand you and do not hold it

against you in this pure and pious discussion. My only request to you is - Do

not hold the assumption - that vargas cannot be used independently and then,

try to prove the same using everything that comes around. Coming to other Gurus

and learned Scholars: You can choose to believe in them, that is the choice

rested in you by the Lord. How can I comment on whom you should associate with

or not?

Chandrashekhar ji has always told,''If you sincerely look for Knowledge

you will find it''.

Only a sincere person finds knowledge. This I have said so many times too. How is it relevant here?

Couple of years back,i had requested Ramanarayanan ji for some books

''The books you are looking for are already within you,You have to

sharpen .....''.Ramanarayanan ji has guided whenever i was in need.I

have expressed my concerns and differences regrading varga bhavas too.

I will already explained in a separate discussion that to find an internal Guru,

one needs and external Guru. Please understand - Vedanta is a pramana - not a

book!! So Sri Ramanarayan, a pious person, should not be brought in this

discussion.

When i had told about my lack of knoweldge in Sanskrit - Sri

Chandrahari said ''Fix your mind on Shiva and recite OM NAMA

SHIVAYA,everything will come automatically,no need to study anything''

Fixation of mind is dhyana Yoga, and that it will help in contemplation. I

cannot understand why one does not need to study? Who told you who is Shiva? A

word - an understanding - a book? What is Vedanta for? Such loose statements I

do not appreciate, even if coming from someone you respect. Sreenadh ji is well

read in classics and has not found a single

reference supporting seperate bhavas for amshas.Now you are changing the subject

to disconnection of Astrology from the principles given in the Veda. You are

saying that since Sri Sreenadh, who is well versed in classics (I am assuming

they are astrological classics as Vedas are not called classics), the amshas

cannot exist. There are about 10-15 persons who also well read in classics, say

that Amshas should be used. This becomes a judgmental thing and without basis.

We started with a fine discussion and research in explaining the Vedanta and

its possible connection with the amshas. How do the above people come

in?Indriyas and Navapranas

do not have any lagna or Bhavas,But they infleuence Lagna and dwadasha

bhavas.I do not know why it is so difficult to understand!!!You have been saying

that, but no reference that you have given, is understood to have said this. You

only said Bhava is the Kshetra, so why can't manomaya kosha and prana maya kosha

have a kshetra?

Having said that, I remain undecided on how to use the divisional charts but

certain they can be used. People are free to choose but I cannot be arrogant

enought to say that the possibility does not exist. This can only be said -

"Have you seen that barren woman's son?" - This I say is impossible! Thanks and

RegardsBharatOn 2/23/06, Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology

> wrote:Namaskaar Sri PradeepThe verses that you have quoted, need proper

explanation with references. The verse mentioning Amsha is to explain that the

consciousness that the individual thinks as its own and separate from others,

and therefore, separate from Brahman can mean - That there is a substance

separate from Brahman existing. To refute the same Sri Krishna explains that

the consciousness within is of as if an amsha of Brahman.

This is a small sentence right now. Do not comment on it. I am preparing the

full reply but it will take time. This verse has to be seen from explanations

given in the 13th Chapter too. I think I will end up writing an exposition on

Srimad Bhagavad Gita! Harih Aum Sri Gurubhyoh Namah, Harih Aum!Thanks and

RegardsBharatOn 2/23/06, vijayadas_pradeep

<

vijayadas_pradeep > wrote:

Dear Bharat ji Namaskar

Whether you have understood Upanishads or Gita is beyond my perception

and my job is not to judge that.What i have said is based on classical

shlokas.

Mamaivamsho Jeevaloke

Jeeva Bhootha Sanathana

Mana shashtaneendriyaani

Prakrithi sthani Karshathi

Bhagavad Gita,Chapter 15,Purushottama Yoga,Shloka 7.

My own Sanathana AMSHA manifests as Jeeva(jeevatma) in jeevaloka and

attracts the six indriyas including Manas(5 jnanendriyas plus

Manas),situated in Prakrithi.Please note the word AMSHA.

Yujnannevam Sadathmanam

Yogee Niyatha Manasa

Shanthim Nirvana Paramam

Malsamstham adhi gachathi.(Sixth chapter Dhyanayoga,shloka 15).

The yogi who has controlled the mind and the one who has made the mind

join with atma, will attain the height of shanthi in me.

Now let us take

AHAM BRAHMASMI - I AM BRAHMAN OR I AM HIM.They are one and the same,but

how?

What is the difference between spark(amsha) and Sun(Whole);Drop(amsha)

and Ocean(Whole)?

The drop is no different from Ocean,but all the drops collectively forms

the Ocean.Spark is no different from the Sun but all the sparks together

forms the Sun.

They are the same but they together constitute HIM.HE is in all,but all

together it is HIM.This is the difference between Jivatma and

Paramatma.It is difficult to express in words.Collective or Holistic

feeling is Supreme consciousness.

Joining of Mind and Atma and attainment of Bhava has to be experienced

through music.It cannot be expressed in words.

Thanks a lot for offering books and help.

Chandrashekhar ji has always told,''If you sincerely look for Knowledge

you will find it''.

Couple of years back,i had requested Ramanarayanan ji for some books

''The books you are looking for are already within you,You have to

sharpen .....''.Ramanarayanan ji has guided whenever i was in need.I

have expressed my concerns and differences regrading varga bhavas too.

When i had told about my lack of knoweldge in Sanskrit - Sri

Chandrahari said ''Fix your mind on Shiva and recite OM NAMA

SHIVAYA,everything will come automatically,no need to study anything''

Sreenadh ji is well read in classics and has not found a single

reference supporting seperate bhavas for amshas.Indriyas and Navapranas

do not have any lagna or Bhavas,But they infleuence Lagna and dwadasha

bhavas.I do not know why it is so difficult to understand!!!

I honestly agree that i have read very few books,no upanishads,no

vedas,and very few jyotish books.In that way i may be a pauper as

compared to you.But i trust the words of above Gurusthaneeyas.I feel the

biggest treasure of knoweldge is within us and not in any books.Ever

since i have been meeting AMRITANANDA MAYI AMMA,i feel no insecurity at

all.There is no bigger Yogi and Guru than Parama Shiva.

Let us travel together and learn from each other.Let the discretion

helps us in seperating good and bad.Listen to everyone,and take the

good.Neither you are, nor i am, a challenger.

Thanks

Pradee

vedic astrology, "Bharat Hindu Astrology"

<hinduastrology wrote:

>

> Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

>

> AUM!

>

> All the answers for your queries,are in Bhagawat Gita.When Lord

Krishna

> HIMSELF has explained them in detail,i do not think any one has to

> elaborate further.

>

> If I may say so, the query was yours. I used the Upanishads to explain

the

> same. Bhagavad Gita is one of the finest expositions on the Upanishads

and

> it does not alter the saying of the Upanishad.

>

> Bhagwan has explained to Arjuna on how to fix ones mind on HIM.What i

> have told is nothing more.We have to understand the difference between

> jivatma and Paramatma here.We are talking about jivatma,which is a

spark

> of the very Paramatma.

> Is the drop of water in an ocean separate from the ocean? When inside

the

> Ocean do you see water everywhere or do you see droplets of water

> separately? When we talk on infinite lord, do you see any parts in it?

When

> you see infinite space - can you divide it? The room space, wall

space,

> garden space, city space is after all space. Jivatma does not refer to

a

> separate Atma but the notion of it in the mind. Please this is the

> difference.

>

> Finally mind will dissolve and just the Atma

> remains which will unite jivatma and Paramtma.

> If such was the case, then, every night in deep sleep they would unite

as

> mind is not there. Read Mandukya Upanishad with Sri Gaupada's Karika.

The

> notion dissolving is not the mind dissolving. Do trees have to vanish

for me

> to see Atman? Did Ramakrishna Paramhansa not see people around him?

>

> Budhi is the mediator here.Please don't get distracted by various

> translations of Gita.Just think how we are breaking sheaths one by one

and

> joining HIM.This is dissolving of mind in Atma - total dissolution is

> assimilation.

> I am not going by translations of Srimad Bhagavat Gita. I am going by

the

> teachings of the Upanishad. I have given many references of the same.

Kindly

> do not reject those teachings are mere interpretations of translators!

The

> teachings have been given with complete logic and reasoning.

>

> Breaking sheaths amount to saying that pranas do not function in a

Jeevan

> Mukta. This statement is totally against the Upanishads. Kindly give

> reference either in the Upanishads or the Bhagavad Gita.

>

> Atma knows everything as it is part of the Pure Bodha or

> Consciousness.Bhava is thus the joining of Atma and Manas.

> Look at the contradiction - If you say Atma is a part of

Consciousness, then

> it would be perishable. As it is limited and not infinite. You are

going

> against the very basis of Mahavakya - Atman is Brahman.

>

> Pradeep, please do not take in the wrong manner, but it would do you

good if

> you study the above subjects carefully under guidance of a Guru. I can

> suggest you some books to start with, to make things easier. It is

these

> errors that are making you question again and again.

>

> If you feel I do not understand (even intellectually) the Upanishads

or the

> Bhagavad Gita, then, the discussion should stop here. However, if you

> understand that I know something, then you can ask n number of

questions. I

> will only initiate this learning process if you approach as a learner

and

> not as a challenger.

>

> A musician can sing based on lower intellectual analysis or higher

> influence.When it is lower,he concentrates or just repeats the

> techniques as taught.But in the higher state he forgets mind and music

> comes from Atma.It will come from within.Bhava can result only with

> that.

> When one sings because it comes naturally, then it is the highest

form. The

> desire for appreciation, etc is absent in such a case. In doing so,

why do

> you personalize Atman as that of a musician just because he has broken

> identification from the mind. This example does not in any case prove

that

> there are separate Atmans floating around.

>

> Bhava is thus the joining of Atma and Manas.Musician was

> just an example.Think of the act smile.We can smile just with lip

> movement or lip plus chin,cheeks,facial muscles etc.But the smile is

not

> having bhava if it not coming from within.Then there is a

> confluence.

> In the above case, as the limitedness of Manas is disassociated with,

> therefore the Bhava comes, not because of the joining of the two! How

can an

> Omnipresent join or remove from anything?

> First verse of Isa Upanishad - All that is there, is verily the Lord!

> Therefore, the concept of Jivatman is a notion. Do not build the

entire

> theory of bhava on a false notion. This is serious confusion and you

must

> talk to a Siddha Guru regarding the same.

>

> There is a frequent example in the Upanishads about the rope and the

snake.

> This example states that if in a dark corner a rope lies and if you

see it

> as a snake, then, your mind is superimposing the idea of the snake

because

> the base is rope. This is because the imaginary snake borrows shape of

the

> real rope. Here snake is Maya and rope is Brahman. The idea is space

and

> time are endless because Brahman is, so space and time seem that way.

This

> example does not mean that Brahman is Rope!

>

> You have taken two examples, that of Chariot and of Jeevatman and

converted

> them into something like the above. To help you understand, if you

give me

> the references of the texts, I'll try and explain to the best of my

> abilities.

>

> Bhava is a kshetra of the Sthoola Sarira if you take Rashi chart as

the

> Sthoola Sarira. If you take it as a sum total of all koshas, then, we

have a

> different discussion at hand.

>

> Again, in your analysis you have not touched upon the anandamaya kosha

and

> its kshetram.

>

> This is why, we chant Om sahana vavatu before every class. Often, the

> discussion can get heated as the subject matter is Self. Noone takes

kindly

> to breaking of self imposed notions.

>

> Do let me know if you want to systematically study the texts. I can

provide

> you with the basic list before going on to the most powerful Texts.

>

> Harih Aum

> Sri Gurubhyo Namah

> Hari Aum

>

>

> Thanks and Regards

> Bharat

>

> Hari Aum Tat Sat

>

>

On 2/22/06, vijayadas_pradeep vijayadas_pradeep wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Bharat ji Namaskar

> >

> > All the answers for your queries,are in Bhagawat Gita.When Lord

Krishna

> > HIMSELF has explained them in detail,i do not think any one has to

> > elaborate further.

> >

> > Bhagwan has explained to Arjuna on how to fix ones mind on HIM.What

i

> > have told is nothing more.We have to understand the difference

between

> > jivatma and Paramatma here.We are talking about jivatma,which is a

spark

> > of the very Paramatma.Finally mind will dissolve and just the Atma

> > remains which will unite jivatma and Paramtma.Budhi is the mediator

> > here.Please don't get distracted by various translations of

Gita.Just

> > think how we are breaking sheaths one by one and joining HIM.This is

> > dissolving of mind in Atma - total dissolution is assimilation.

> >

> > There is a purpose for the creation of mind.Without it the ''game''

is

> > not possible.

> > Thus Shiva/Shakthi,Purusha/Prakrithi,Atma/Manas,Surya/Chandra etc

have

> > Paraspara Ashrayatwa or mutual dependency.It is all the same.When we

say

> > ''wherever mind is going'' - it is not a physical displacement.It is

> > Manovyapara.Atma is the spark of HIM within us.It is just sitting as

an

> > observer,and goes wherever the mind takes him,and remains

> > unaffected.Budhi is the discriminator,who can decide what is wriong

and

> > what is right.When Budhi is refined,or when the dust and impurities

are

> > removed,Budhi will act as it is supoosed to.Indriyas and Vishaya

Sukhas

> > can cloud Budhi.Once these are tamed,Manas Joins Budhi and then

finally

> > it joins Atma.Total dissolution.Bhagavan has made this crystal

clear.

> >

> > A musician can sing based on lower intellectual analysis or higher

> > influence.When it is lower,he concentrates or just repeats the

> > techniques as taught.But in the higher state he forgets mind and

music

> > comes from Atma.It will come from within.Bhava can result only with

> > that.Atma knows everything as it is part of the Pure Bodha or

> > Consciousness.Bhava is thus the joining of Atma and Manas.Musician

was

> > just an example.Think of the act smile.We can smile just with lip

> > movement or lip plus chin,cheeks,facial muscles etc.But the smile is

not

> > having bhava if it not coming from within.Then there is a

> > confluence.Word or Vak is supreme.Nada is Supreme.Hence musical

> > expressions can make us feel Bhava or unison with HIM,atleast for a

few

> > seconds,when striving for perfection.

> >

> > Once the concept of Bhava is clear,we can discuss astrological

vargas.i

> > am pretty sure that you have enough intelligence to understand the

> > same.Whole universe is permeated with his spark.The colelctive

feeling

> > of all these is Supreme Bodha.In Jyotisha one unison of Atma and

Manas

> > is one Bhava.Indriyas,Budhi,Prana etc are facilitators.

> >

> > Kind Regds

> > Pradeep

> >

> > vedic astrology, "Bharat Hindu Astrology"

> > hinduastrology@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

> > >

> > > Om Astoma Sad Gamaya.

> > > Tamasoma Jyothir Gamaya.

> > > Mrityorma Amritam Gamaya.

> > > Om Shantih! Shantih! Shantih!

> > >

> > > Here I go again:

> > >

> > > regarding Bhagawan Krishna & Arjuna.It will clear all our

doubts.Think

> > > of soul as jivatma in the current context,sitting inside the

> > > chariot.What is the meaning of charioteer.It is

intelligence.krishna

> > had

> > > taken over the control of intelligence from Arjuna(false

> > > identification).Horses are Indriyas.The reins represent operations

of

> > > the mind.If the charioteer does not apply control,the horses may

run

> > > wherever they want.Also if reins(mind) are left alone after an

initial

> > > operation,the horses will keep on running as per the initial

> > > instruction.Intelligence corresponds with indriyas through

> > > manas.Intelligence can sometimes be clouded and can act based on

> > > senses.Thus withdrawal of senses,can result in true

intelligence,if it

> > > is weak as per jataka. Thus chariot is sthoola shareera.but

Chariot

> > has no

> > > life or movement if it is devoid of the above said entities

> > -collectively

> > > called as Sookshma

> > > shareera.

> > >

> > > This is a well known analogy and till now I agree. I believe you

are

> > taking

> > > the lagna chart as the sthoola Sarira (in your comments below)

> > >

> > > Atma has no desire.It is upto 'Us' to go back to our real Us-

> > > ''Atma''.But Atma and Manas do have Paraspara ashrayatwa.Becasue

atma

> > > joins or follows manas, wherever he is taking,as an

observer.(Think of

> > > the soul in the chariot moving along with the movement of chariot

> > which

> > > is according to the direction from manas on to the

horses(indriyas)).

> > > Now you have extended the example. This is a common mistake for

those

> > > studying Vedanta. The analogy of the chariot = Sharira, Arjuna

being

> > the

> > > Jivatma and Krishna meaning identification with the Real self is

okay.

> > It is

> > > only to explain the individual and show how the senses can destroy

a

> > person

> > > by misleading him. It also shows with the knowledge of the Self,

the

> > > indriyas function but in their maryada.

> > >

> > > Do not go to the level of mind taking Atma for a ride. This will

> > overturn

> > > almost all of the Upanishadic statments. As Atma is omnipresent,

there

> > is

> > > nowhere where it is not. Therefore, wherever the mind goes, it

there

> > > already. It may seem to the mind that Atma is travelling with it,

but

> > then,

> > > that is the Maya!

> > >

> > > A musician can sing with sublime bhava upon, forgetting of

mind.Manas

> > > dissolving in Atma is complete Bhava. In astrology strength of Sun

> > gives

> > > Atma bala and moon,manobala.Due to Paraspara aashrayatwa,strength

of

> > one

> > > entity will result in the strength of the other.

> > >

> > > Sun gives atma bala not Atma. How is the bala different? The light

of

> > > consciousness when referred to in an individual is called

conditioned

> > > consciousness. It enlivens the ego thought and the mind. This is

the

> > Atma

> > > bala and not the bala of Atman that we are referring to above. The

> > Atman has

> > > nothing to take from manobala. It is free already and it is

> > omnipotent.

> > > Therefore, the Atma bala can only refer to the light or brilliance

of

> > the

> > > consciousness shining through Sun in our charts that enlivens the

> > > individual. As Sun is a graha, it binds through conditioning and

> > feeling

> > > that this consciousness is individual! This is the binding nature

of

> > the

> > > Sun.

> > >

> > > Manas never dissolves into the Atman. Manas is never there for the

> > Atman,

> > > therefore there is no dissolving back. This the limitation of any

> > language

> > > and therefore, such words are used. The thoughts are born out of a

> > want for

> > > fulfillment of the self, as one cannot accept limitation (this is

due

> > to the

> > > fact that one's nature is Satyam Jnanam Anantam). This desire

moves to

> > > fulfill itself and be complete. When such a notion is finished and

> > Brahma

> > > Vidya dawns, there is no more running. Only residual prarabdha

> > functions.

> > >

> > > When a musician sings, he dissociates his ego and finds love and

> > devotion.

> > > This is possible not only for a musician but for almost everyone

on

> > this

> > > forum.

> > >

> > > I am sorry I have to discuss the above words over the internet.

> > Upanishads

> > > should be studied with reverence and not like this.

> > >

> > > There are no multiple charts.As the

> > > brain cannot hold all the relationships a planet is having with 12

> > > Rashis,we seperate each kind of relationship(sthoola sookshma

> > sambandha)

> > > as a seperate entity(chart).

> > >

> > > Sthoola Sookshma Sambanda I understand very well and agree. Now

when

> > we say

> > > Sookshma, what do we mean? Sookshma is the one that is free from

the

> > > sthoola. So pranamaya kosha is independent and free of sthoolamaya

> > kosha. If

> > > your heart is beating it is because pranas are functioning on

their

> > own. No

> > > sambandha is required. If in the prana chart (suppose we can

recognize

> > which

> > > one it is), if we see problems and malefics, we can find out the

root

> > of

> > > heart problem. No need for the D1 chart! (You'd probably call me

mad

> > now,

> > > but I am just showing you that the possibility exist)

> > >

> > > Rasi is the Sthoola Sarira and as "Yat Pinde Tat Brahmande"

principle

> > > applies so Rasi is also the external to Sthoola Sarira.

> > >

> > > Rashi the structure(chariot) is Sthoolashareera and one rashi is

same

> > as one

> > > bhava, though with a small conceptual difference.Rashi needs

prana(got

> > > through planets,which in turn is from soorya) and other sookshama

> > shareera

> > > entities for functioning.Think of Rashi as the chariot along with

> > > Krishna,Arjuna,Horses,reins etc,while thinking of Bhavas.

> > >

> > > I agree that Rashi and Bhava are same. The 2nd statement is a huge

> > > assumption. The Sthoola Sarira needs Prana true but can the

Sthoola

> > Sarira

> > > show the functioning of the Prana? The Prana are independent of

the

> > Sthoola

> > > Sarira so Sthoola Sarira shall show the result and Prana is the

cause.

> > >

> > > Rashi can only show the result of the Prana on Sthoola Sarira and

not

> > the

> > > cause. It will not show which Prana isn't functioning and why. And

> > what

> > > about the interrelationships between the Mind and the Pranas. The

> > Sthoola

> > > Sarira shall show nothing of it.

> > >

> > > Another exercise here:

> > > If we have Sun as the conditioned consciousness (not the Atman),

Moon

> > as the

> > > mind, Jupiter as the values and memory, Mercury as the Buddhi, can

you

> > > divide the other planets into their functions of Pranas?

> > >

> > > One planet has many roles(It is like a variable).When we see it

from a

> > > 30 degree span it relates to Kshethra.When we see it from a 3.2

degree

> > > span,it is relating to navamshas or pranas.Think like this - When

we

> > see

> > > from a sthoola position Krishna is just a charioteer.But when we

see

> > > from a sookshma perspective,Krishna is intelligence.But it is the

same

> > > Krishna sitting in the same Chariot.So are planets.Instead of

seeing

> > > Krishna as an ''Intelligent Charioteer'' in the same Chariot ,we

are

> > > trying to bring in another chariot(another chart). In reality

there

> > are

> > > only 12 Bhavas (aadheya tattwam) and 12 Rashis(Aadhara tattwa) and

9

> > > planetary entities.

> > >

> > > If we take 30 degree as Kshetra, then how do 3.2 degree become the

> > prana. In

> > > one sentence you are proving the sameness of Kshetra (the

environment)

> > with

> > > the Prana (the planet itself). The Planet do not define the

Kshetra,

> > it is

> > > the Bhava that defines the Kshetra. Similarly 3.2 degree is a

Kshetra

> > for

> > > the Prana (if Navamsa shows Prana), following that logic.

> > >

> > > The Kshetra of the Prana and the Manas is not another chariot. It

is

> > evident

> > > from above. The Kshetra of the Prana and Manas prevades the

chariot

> > and is

> > > much bigger. The Upanishad is very clear about the same.

> > >

> > > For the Sthoola Sarira, there are only 12 bhavas of 30 degrees.

Can

> > you say

> > > the same for Pranas and Manas? From the view of Manas there is a

> > different

> > > world, for example, Swapna world has nothing to do with Sthoola

> > Sarira,

> > > where will it go. Where is its Kshetram? and where will Anandmaya

> > Kosha go

> > > and its Kshetram of Deep Sleep.

> > >

> > >

> > > You can never take a group of trimshamshas and analyze them as

> > > bhavas.They are just indriyas,alone.Indriyas cannot act in

> > isolation,but

> > > only in relation with manas - which is in turn is part of

> > > mind(manas,chitta,budhi,ahamkara).You have to study them in

relation

> > to

> > > other entities.

> > > Would the above involve Sthoola Sarira D1 Chart? See , this is

what I

> > have

> > > been trying to convey.

> > >

> > >

> > > Same is the case with navamshas.Prana supplies vital

> > > energies.If a planet has joined debilitation,rashi through

navamsha

> > > sambandha -it is showing lack of a particular prana support.See

the

> > > bhava for which this planet is a lord and also its karakattwa to

study

> > > results.

> > > This I agree with. As I have already mentioned here we have no

> > contention.

> > >

> > > Please try to understand the concept of Bhava.It is the unison of

Atma

> > > and Manas.Other constituents,are just facilitators.HOLISTIC

approach

> > > alone can take us towards Sakshathkaara.Hope you will give a

patient

> > > ear.

> > > Atma and Manas do not have a unison as it is explained above.

Atman is

> > > foreover free from the manas. The Bhava is not the unison between

the

> > two.

> > > The Kshetra is born out of the Nature. Here you need to understand

one

> > more

> > > thing:

> > >

> > > The mind has many desires. They require a Kshetram. The Lord

provides

> > for

> > > such a Kshetram that is best for the resultant of these desires.

(This

> > is

> > > theory of Karma as propounded by the Veda, only to understand the

> > limitation

> > > of Karma). Therefore, Kshetram is not the mind. Atman prevades

both

> > the mind

> > > and the Kshetram and is unattached to both.

> > > Again, your words carry so many concepts that I will need many

days to

> > > explain everything in order. A systematic study of Vedanta is a

must

> > for

> > > every budding astrologer and unless that is done, there are bound

to

> > be

> > > assumptions that are harmful for the growth of understanding of

> > Astrology as

> > > a subject.

> > >

> > > You will always have my patient ear and again I applaud you on a

> > healthy

> > > discussion.

> > >

> > > Please think about the same and see how there exists a possibility

of

> > the

> > > divisional charts being studied. Another suggestion is, in doing

so do

> > not

> > > worry about your earlier stance, etc. Those who think they know

how to

> > study

> > > divisional charts, may be doing it all wrong. So do not worry

about

> > them.

> > > Think in this new light.

> > >

> > > Incidently today my elder daughter, who is almost six years old,

asked

> > me

> > > -"Papa, when you are asleep, do you know that time that you are

> > asleep?".

> > > Looks like it is my day of answering the most profound questions.

> > >

> > > Thanks and Regards

> > > Bharat

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > On 2/21/06, vijayadas_pradeep vijayadas_pradeep@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear Bharat ji Namaskar

> > > >

> > > > There is no amount of hatred.If rosha is present,it is only for

a

> > higher

> > > > cause.With time and grace let us be able to learn and

control.Thanks

> > for

> > > > your kind words and let the almighty make our journey easier.

> > > >

> > > > >>Whether the lagna chart is showing the Sthoola Sarira or it is

the

> > > > resultant Jiva? I would love >>to hear your views. It could be

both

> > and

> > > > each would raise a volley of questions. If it is the >>resultant

> > jiva,

> > > > then, why study the divisional chart >>at all. Why, even, go to

the

> > > > Navamsha? >>If it is the Sthoola Sarira, then, why use it too

much

> > as

> > > > most can be gathered >>through the >>divisional chart?

> > > >

> > > > Good questions.

> > > > I would request you to re-read what you might have already read

> > > > regarding Bhagawan Krishna & Arjuna.It will clear all our

> > doubts.Think

> > > > of soul as jivatma in the current context,sitting inside the

> > > > chariot.What is the meaning of charioteer.It is

intelligence.krishna

> > had

> > > > taken over the control of intelligence from Arjuna(false

> > > > identification).Horses are Indriyas.The reins represent

operations

> > of

> > > > the mind.If the charioteer does not apply control,the horses may

run

> > > > wherever they want.Also if reins(mind) are left alone after an

> > initial

> > > > operation,the horses will keep on running as per the initial

> > > > instruction.Intelligence corresponds with indriyas through

> > > > manas.Intelligence can sometimes be clouded and can act based on

> > > > senses.Thus withdrawal of senses,can result in true

intelligence,if

> > it

> > > > is weak as per jataka.

> > > >

> > > > Thus chariot is sthoola shareera.but Chariot has no life or

movement

> > if

> > > > it is devoid of the above said entities -collectively called as

> > Sookshma

> > > > shareera.

> > > >

> > > > Atma has no desire.It is upto 'Us' to go back to our real Us-

> > > > ''Atma''.But Atma and Manas do have Paraspara ashrayatwa.Becasue

> > atma

> > > > joins or follows manas, wherever he is taking,as an

observer.(Think

> > of

> > > > the soul in the chariot moving along with the movement of

chariot

> > which

> > > > is according to the direction from manas on to the

> > horses(indriyas)).A

> > > > musician can sing with sublime bhava upon, forgetting of

mind.Manas

> > > > dissolving in Atma is complete Bhava. In astrology strength of

Sun

> > gives

> > > > Atma bala and moon,manobala.Due to Paraspara

aashrayatwa,strength of

> > one

> > > > entity will result in the strength of the other.

> > > >

> > > > Thus coming back to your question -There are no multiple

charts.As

> > the

> > > > brain cannot hold all the relationships a planet is having with

12

> > > > Rashis,we seperate each kind of relationship(sthoola sookshma

> > sambandha)

> > > > as a seperate entity(chart).Rashi the structure(chariot) is

> > > > Sthoolashareera and one rashi is same as one bhava, though with

a

> > small

> > > > conceptual difference.Rashi needs prana(got through

planets,which in

> > > > turn is from soorya) and other sookshama shareera entities for

> > > > functioning.Think of Rashi as the chariot along with

> > > > Krishna,Arjuna,Horses,reins etc,while thinking of Bhavas.

> > > >

> > > > One planet has many roles(It is like a variable).When we see it

from

> > a

> > > > 30 degree span it relates to Kshethra.When we see it from a 3.2

> > degree

> > > > span,it is relating to navamshas or pranas.Think like this -

When we

> > see

> > > > from a sthoola position Krishna is just a charioteer.But when we

see

> > > > from a sookshma perspective,Krishna is intelligence.But it is

the

> > same

> > > > Krishna sitting in the same Chariot.So are planets.Instead of

seeing

> > > > Krishna as an ''Intelligent Charioteer'' in the same Chariot ,we

are

> > > > trying to bring in another chariot(another chart). In reality

there

> > are

> > > > only 12 Bhavas (aadheya tattwam) and 12 Rashis(Aadhara tattwa)

and 9

> > > > planetary entities.

> > > >

> > > > You can never take a group of trimshamshas and analyze them as

> > > > bhavas.They are just indriyas,alone.Indriyas cannot act in

> > isolation,but

> > > > only in relation with manas - which is in turn is part of

> > > > mind(manas,chitta,budhi,ahamkara).You have to study them in

relation

> > to

> > > > other entities.Same is the case with navamshas.Prana supplies

vital

> > > > energies.If a planet has joined debilitation,rashi through

navamsha

> > > > sambandha -it is showing lack of a particular prana support.See

the

> > > > bhava for which this planet is a lord and also its karakattwa to

> > study

> > > > results.

> > > >

> > > > Please try to understand the concept of Bhava.It is the unison

of

> > Atma

> > > > and Manas.Other constituents,are just facilitators.HOLISTIC

approach

> > > > alone can take us towards Sakshathkaara.Hope you will give a

patient

> > > > ear.You can ofcourse still disagree,provided you have supporting

> > logic.

> > > >

> > > > Regds

> > > > Pradeep

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > vedic astrology, "Bharat Hindu Astrology"

> > > > hinduastrology@ wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

> > > > >

> > > > > First of all I must say what I have not said so far - You can

make

> > > > people

> > > > > think and also make them study the classics before they reply

to

> > you.

> > > > I

> > > > > admire your questions and even if you are not open to

existence of

> > > > certain

> > > > > ideas (due to lack of reference in classics or logic or

reasoning

> > > > regarding

> > > > > the idea or else), your approach is worthy of praise.

> > > > >

> > > > > Before we begin this journey, a small prayer:

> > > > >

> > > > > OM SAHANA VAVATU SAHANA BHUNATTU, SAHA VIRYAM KARAWAVAHAI

> > > > > TEJASVINAVADITAMASTU MA VIDVISHAVAHAI

> > > > > OM SHANTI ! SHANTI ! SHANTI !

> > > > >

> > > > > * Together may be be protected

> > > > > Together may we be nourished

> > > > > Together may we work with great energy

> > > > > May our journey together be brilliant and effective

> > > > > May there be no hatred between us

> > > > >

> > > > > *

> > > > > Now, back to our discussion. Let us not discuss charts here

and

> > > > understand

> > > > > the concepts:

> > > > >

> > > > > Though, 5 are the vital functions of Prana,the secondary ones

too

> > are

> > > > > part of sookshma shareera.

> > > > > I agreed with you even in my previous email. So no contention

over

> > > > here.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > In Jyotisha,we are studying the confluence of numerous

> > entities,for eg

> > > > > sookshma shareera,comprising of navapranas,dasha

indriyas,manas

> > and

> > > > > budhi along with sthoola shareera.Pranas alone or indriyas

alone

> > > > cannot

> > > > > make a meaning.All the entities have to act in

coordination.The

> > order

> > > > or

> > > > > samyoga krama from atma onwards is as follows.Atma joins

> > Manas,Manas

> > > > to

> > > > > Indriyas,Indriyas to Vishayas(loosely translation

> > ''subjects''),then

> > > > > vishaya sukha etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > There are so many concepts in this one paragraph that I will

need

> > > > couple of

> > > > > days to explain. Let me make some humble beginnings:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Action is not only that of the Sthoola Sarira. Each thought

is

> > > > likened to

> > > > > an Action. To understand this, think of a person who becomes

> > fearful

> > > > of an

> > > > > external situation. The fear is in the mind and it causes the

> > > > discrimination

> > > > > to vanish (vijnanamaya kosha) and it has effects on the

(pranamaya

> > > > kosha)

> > > > > and through it on the (annamaya kosha). But if you think, fear

is

> > only

> > > > in

> > > > > the Mind. It is the action of the mind. Confluence of numerous

> > > > entities is

> > > > > fine, but, Veda is clear about cause and effect and in that we

can

> > see

> > > > what

> > > > > is going on in the manomaya kosha, that may or may not

fructify

> > into

> > > > actual

> > > > > physical action. If there was a way, we could understand that,

> > would

> > > > it not

> > > > > be extremely helpful for any native?

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Pranas and Jnana Indriyas have a great meaning alone.

Blockages

> > to

> > > > prana

> > > > > will give rise to disease in the Sthoola Sarira. I am taking a

> > > > hypothetical

> > > > > example - let's suppose one varga defines the functioning of

apana

> > and

> > > > that

> > > > > is showing defects, would it not mean directly that Sthoola

Sarira

> > > > will such

> > > > > a disease? I think, through the varga we are going into the

roots

> > of

> > > > things.

> > > > > Remember what the Upanishad say, Prana prevade the sthoola

sarira.

> > > > This

> > > > > means they are independent of the Sthoola Sarira and secondly,

> > they

> > > > are not

> > > > > necessarily contained within the Sthoola Sarira. Now if some

is

> > deaf

> > > > and

> > > > > dumb or blind, the influence of those indriyas in not in the

> > manomaya

> > > > kosha.

> > > > > How can you say with sureity that Prana and indriyas alone do

not

> > have

> > > > any

> > > > > meaning? That there are inter dependencies is fine, but causes

lie

> > > > deep

> > > > > within through the kosas.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. All entities may not act in coordination. This is the

imbalance

> > > > through

> > > > > the manomaya kosha or pranamaya kosha.

> > > > >

> > > > > 4. Atma never joins the Manas. Atma is forever free. Atman is

> > Brahman

> > > > > (Mahavakya). Then, why do we call Atman and Brahman while

> > referring it

> > > > to

> > > > > the same thing. It is because of our own limited thinking.

Atman

> > is

> > > > referred

> > > > > to the Truth while talking of the Self. While Brahman is

spoken of

> > as

> > > > the

> > > > > Truth while talking of the entirety. This does not make them

> > different

> > > > > entities.

> > > > > Atma is Omnipresent and Omniscient, and therefore, it enlivens

as

> > > > cognition

> > > > > in the mind. Mind is the collection of thoughts. It is born

out of

> > the

> > > > > thought that I am not the whole. This "I" thought is the ego.

> > > > Therefore, ego

> > > > > takes a collection of thoughts and calls it one's mind. How is

ego

> > > > evident -

> > > > > throught the light of Atma, how is mind evident - through the

> > light of

> > > > Atma.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Remember the verse of the Upanishad and of Aparokshanubhuti -

Asti

> > > > bhati

> > > > > priyam rupam, naam ........ Aadhatriyam brahma rupam jagat

rupam

> > tato

> > > > dvayam

> > > > > (please do not mind my english transliteration). The

existence,

> > > > knowledge

> > > > > and bliss of anything is of the nature of Brahman, whereas,

nama

> > and

> > > > rupa is

> > > > > the nature of the jagat (world). So that mind exists, and

thought

> > > > exists -

> > > > > the existence is the quality of Atman but that we define a

thought

> > and

> > > > give

> > > > > a name to it, is born out of maya.

> > > > >

> > > > > Therefore, for Atma there is no mind. For the mind, it has to

> > > > disengage from

> > > > > the desiring activities to the entity that enlivens it, to

have

> > some

> > > > idea of

> > > > > Atma. (This is a very basic idea here just to intellectually

have

> > an

> > > > idea of

> > > > > Atman)

> > > > >

> > > > > Atma just goes where the manas is taking him.

> > > > > Atman prevades vijnanamaya kosha and all objects and beings.

Mind

> > > > cannot

> > > > > take it anywhere. Where mind goes, Atman is there already

(many

> > > > references

> > > > > in Upanishad).

> > > > >

> > > > > 5. Mind is the controller of Indriyas in light of the Atman.

> > Without

> > > > its

> > > > > light, indriyas would go out of control. For a moment, let us

> > bring

> > > > Dharma

> > > > > instead of Atman. Dharma is vijnanamaya kosha. If Dharma isn't

> > guiding

> > > > the

> > > > > mind, then mind cannot reign in the senses and that will

result in

> > > > > passionate actions. If one of the vargas is showing vijnana

maya

> > kosha

> > > > and

> > > > > another the manomaya kosha, their interaction will show

whether or

> > not

> > > > the

> > > > > native will follow Dharma while pursuing Artha and Kama. Is it

> > not?

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, why are we making such an assumption? Is it a new theory?

> > > > > Jyotish as a shastra is subservient to Vedas. If Vedas have

given

> > the

> > > > > panchkoshas, there has to be its relevance in the charts. You

also

> > > > agree to

> > > > > the same and only object to seeing the koshas separately

(which is

> > > > akin to

> > > > > seeing the divisional charts separately).

> > > > >

> > > > > The underlying discussion should be held:

> > > > > Whether the lagna chart is showing the Sthoola Sarira or it is

the

> > > > resultant

> > > > > Jiva? I would love to hear your views. It could be both and

each

> > would

> > > > raise

> > > > > a volley of questions. If it is the resultant jiva, then, why

> > study

> > > > the

> > > > > divisional chart at all. Why, even, go to the Navamsha? If it

is

> > the

> > > > Sthoola

> > > > > Sarira, then, why use it too much as most can be gathered

through

> > the

> > > > > divisional chart?

> > > > >

> > > > > Mind as you have said has many functions -

Budhi,Ahamkara,Chitta

> > and

> > > > > Manas.Manas is very important as it has a big role in

directing

> > our

> > > > > indriyas.But as chitta,is past impressions stored,it can act

with

> > > > > guidance from Budhi (discriminator),to give proper signals to

the

> > > > > manas.For the same reason it is said,Guru aspecting 5th lord

is

> > Budhi

> > > > > Madhurya(Dr.B.V.Raman 300 imp cominations).5th lords

disposition

> > from

> > > > > Brihaspati is also important - It shows whether the

instructions

> > from

> > > > > Brihaspati (Jnana Sukha karaka)can be received or not.Whenever

we

> > are

> > > > > analyzing or trying to perceive,budhi interacts with chitta,

to

> > study

> > > > > based on past impressions.These are passed on to manas.Manas

> > process

> > > > > these along with impressions(ongoing) gathered through

> > > > > indriyas.Brihaspati is Jnana as well as Sukha Karaka.Budha is

> > Jnana

> > > > > Swarupa and karaka for ''Vak''.As we know control of

indriyas,or

> > > > > withdrawal is the only way, for taming the mind.But Mind is

such a

> > > > > thing, that is so difficult to control.Here Budhi & Chitta can

be

> > > > handy,

> > > > > as mentioned above.Thus we may have to gain Vairagya through

> > > > > practise,obeying to budhi.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is huge and I am already getting fatiqued. I wish you

were

> > here

> > > > with me

> > > > > discussing this, atleast I wouldn't have to type all.

Nonetheless,

> > let

> > > > me

> > > > > get started again:

> > > > >

> > > > > Budhi: discriminating, reasoning, judging faculty. Budhi

judges

> > based

> > > > on its

> > > > > understanding. The principles of Dharma should guide Buddhi.

To

> > > > discriminate

> > > > > and follow, it needs the light of Truth or the reasoning why

to

> > follow

> > > > > Dharma. The light is provided by Sun, that is why Mercury

"tries"

> > to

> > > > be

> > > > > close to Sun. This is the BudhaAditya Yoga. Jupiter is the

store

> > house

> > > > of

> > > > > intelligence and provides deep thinking on each stimuli. It,

> > > > therefore,

> > > > > represents Dharma.

> > > > >

> > > > > The Manas may or may not refer a matter to Budhi (most

reactive

> > stance

> > > > are

> > > > > manas acting alone). Budhi comes into play only if Manas lets

it.

> > Only

> > > > if

> > > > > Budhi is referred too, Dharma can come into play. Under

Gajakesari

> > > > Yoga, the

> > > > > instincts of Dharma become strong and therefore, without

referring

> > to

> > > > Budhi,

> > > > > a person is able to do Dharmic actions. As Jupiter signifies

> > Dharma,

> > > > and

> > > > > Dharma is the true way to lasting sukha, therefore it is the

Sukha

> > > > Karaka.

> > > > >

> > > > > To explain the above, we do not need the houses. The houses

will

> > > > provide the

> > > > > sthoola Sarira the Kshetra of expression. Karma has to come

from

> > the

> > > > graha.

> > > > > By not providing the adequate Kshetra, the graha is unfilled

or

> > > > > disappointed. This is what happens if you see Jupiter is

Kshetra

> > of

> > > > learning

> > > > > and intelligence - it is brilliant. In Kshetra of war and

Adharma,

> > > > it's

> > > > > expression is unfulfilled.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now the question comes - What do the signs and houses of

Vargas

> > > > provide -

> > > > > Internal Kshetram? Subtle Kshetram? Is there no possibility of

the

> > > > same?

> > > > > Now, if you understand that Prana and Manas is prevading

beyond

> > the

> > > > boundary

> > > > > of the sthoola sarira, this could mean a lot. Frankly, I have

no

> > clue

> > > > now on

> > > > > what the results would be. I require help over here and we

need to

> > > > research

> > > > > (that is why I was certain of research). Another thing,

re-search

> > > > means

> > > > > searching for something that already is, and, not for

something

> > > > altogether

> > > > > new.

> > > > >

> > > > > The sookshma shareera spans across numerous koshas.Thus it may

not

> > be

> > > > > easy to group or confine them within certain koshas as you

have

> > > > > mentioned.Eg.If Vargamshas from Kshethra to Dwadashamsha are

> > > > > Annamaya,then how do you include navamshas which are

> > > > > navapranas.Pranamaya Kosha is supposed to have pranas.But as i

am

> > not

> > > > > sure,i am refraining from making comments.

> > > > > I may be wrong. I agree and only need support that we all

research

> > > > together

> > > > > instead of totally dismissing the idea.

> > > > >

> > > > > I may be wrong or right.But i am depending on classics to

arrive

> > at

> > > > > conclusions.I do not have courage to frame theories.If you are

> > > > > certain,you may kindly explain how nava pranas taken together

can

> > > > result

> > > > > in a Bhava.My understanding is to think of, how pranas are

> > infleuncing

> > > > a

> > > > > bhava.Classical examples too demonstrate the same.

> > > > > You are free to hold your opinion and can correct me,with

classics

> > or

> > > > > logic.

> > > > > Till I discover BrahmaVidya, I will be wrong. My certainity

lies

> > in

> > > > that the

> > > > > vargas can be used separately. How to use them, I am

uncertain. My

> > > > logic and

> > > > > reasoning points to their usage. Furthermore, how the vargas

are

> > being

> > > > > analyzed in many books, I am uncertain if they are true too.

> > > > >

> > > > > I thank you for this free exchange and hope I do not get tired

> > easily.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks and Regards

> > > > > Bharat

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > On 2/21/06, vijayadas_pradeep vijayadas_pradeep@ wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Bharat ji Namaskar

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks for the detailed explanations and Koshas.

> > > > > > Though, 5 are the vital functions of Prana,the secondary

ones

> > too

> > > > are

> > > > > > part of sookshma shareera.Dhananjaya is excepeted for the

reason

> > > > > > mentioned in the previous mail,and hence the other nine are

> > related

> > > > to

> > > > > > navamshas.

> > > > > > In Jyotisha,we are studying the confluence of numerous

> > entities,for

> > > > eg

> > > > > > sookshma shareera,comprising of navapranas,dasha

indriyas,manas

> > and

> > > > > > budhi along with sthoola shareera.Pranas alone or indriyas

alone

> > > > cannot

> > > > > > make a meaning.All the entities have to act in

coordination.The

> > > > order or

> > > > > > samyoga krama from atma onwards is as follows.Atma joins

> > Manas,Manas

> > > > to

> > > > > > Indriyas,Indriyas to Vishayas(loosely translation

> > ''subjects''),then

> > > > > > vishaya sukha etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Atma just goes where the manas is taking him.Manas directs

> > indriyas

> > > > and

> > > > > > indriyas associates with various vishayas and pleasures.

> > > > > > Mind as you have said has many functions -

Budhi,Ahamkara,Chitta

> > and

> > > > > > Manas.Manas is very important as it has a big role in

directing

> > our

> > > > > > indriyas.But as chitta,is past impressions stored,it can act

> > with

> > > > > > guidance from Budhi (discriminator),to give proper signals

to

> > the

> > > > > > manas.For the same reason it is said,Guru aspecting 5th lord

is

> > > > Budhi

> > > > > > Madhurya(Dr.B.V.Raman 300 imp cominations).5th lords

disposition

> > > > from

> > > > > > Brihaspati is also important - It shows whether the

instructions

> > > > from

> > > > > > Brihaspati (Jnana Sukha karaka)can be received or

not.Whenever

> > we

> > > > are

> > > > > > analyzing or trying to perceive,budhi interacts with chitta,

to

> > > > study

> > > > > > based on past impressions.These are passed on to manas.Manas

> > process

> > > > > > these along with impressions(ongoing) gathered through

> > > > > > indriyas.Brihaspati is Jnana as well as Sukha Karaka.Budha

is

> > Jnana

> > > > > > Swarupa and karaka for ''Vak''.As we know control of

indriyas,or

> > > > > > withdrawal is the only way, for taming the mind.But Mind is

such

> > a

> > > > > > thing, that is so difficult to control.Here Budhi & Chitta

can

> > be

> > > > handy,

> > > > > > as mentioned above.Thus we may have to gain Vairagya through

> > > > > > practise,obeying to budhi.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The sookshma shareera spans across numerous koshas.Thus it

may

> > not

> > > > be

> > > > > > easy to group or confine them within certain koshas as you

have

> > > > > > mentioned.Eg.If Vargamshas from Kshethra to Dwadashamsha are

> > > > > > Annamaya,then how do you include navamshas which are

> > > > > > navapranas.Pranamaya Kosha is supposed to have pranas.But as

i

> > am

> > > > not

> > > > > > sure,i am refraining from making comments.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But if you can close your eyes and think for few seconds,you

can

> > > > > > perceive what a Bhava is(Also think of Bhava in Nritta and

> > Sangeetha

> > > > -

> > > > > > The art forms are expressions arising out of internal and

> > external

> > > > > > harmony.When one forgets about mind,True Bhava manifests

with

> > Laya

> > > > or

> > > > > > flow).It is the simultaneous functioniong of numerous

> > entities.Think

> > > > of

> > > > > > the functioning of human system.A body(sthoola)

simultaneously

> > > > working

> > > > > > with prana,indriya,manas,budhi,ahamkara etc can only have a

> > > > Bhava.Prana

> > > > > > alone does not have any bhava - so is manas - it has to get

> > > > impressions

> > > > > > from indriyas or past ones from chitta.How we are able to

derive

> > > > each

> > > > > > and every amsha from individual rashis, holds the

conclusion.A

> > rashi

> > > > is

> > > > > > a sumtotal of all these.Planets are giving life,which they

in

> > turn

> > > > have

> > > > > > gained from Soorya.Purusha manifests as Prana.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I may be wrong or right.But i am depending on classics to

arrive

> > at

> > > > > > conclusions.I do not have courage to frame theories.If you

are

> > > > > > certain,you may kindly explain how nava pranas taken

together

> > can

> > > > result

> > > > > > in a Bhava.My understanding is to think of, how pranas are

> > > > infleuncing a

> > > > > > bhava.Classical examples too demonstrate the same.

> > > > > > You are free to hold your opinion and can correct me,with

> > classics

> > > > or

> > > > > > logic.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regds

> > > > > > Pradeep

> > > > > > vedic astrology, "Bharat Hindu

Astrology"

> > > > > > hinduastrology@ wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Namaskaar Sri Pradeep

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is no use giving simple explanations on the forum.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Taittirya Upanishad Chapter XIII: Than that, verily -than

this

> > one

> > > > > > formed of

> > > > > > > Prana -there is another self within formed of Manas. By

Him

> > this

> > > > one

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > filled.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > When we talk of Jnana indriyas, we talk of two things-

organs

> > of

> > > > > > perception

> > > > > > > and their stimuli being registered in the mind. As the

> > indriyas by

> > > > > > itself

> > > > > > > cannot bring Jnana or cognition, it is the Manomaya Kosha

or

> > the

> > > > Mind

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > > brings it. The word Jnana indriyas therefore refers to

> > perception.

> > > > To

> > > > > > say

> > > > > > > perception rests with the Mind is okay to say that senses

rest

> > > > with

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > mind, will be incorrect. So Jnana indriyas is another

function

> > of

> > > > the

> > > > > > mind

> > > > > > > and a different one from its other functions. It should

not be

> > > > taken

> > > > > > as a

> > > > > > > separate organ or a place or else.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The mano maya kosha is the first kosha in the order from

gross

> > to

> > > > > > subtle to

> > > > > > > be show cognition as it has more of Sattva Guna as

compared to

> > > > > > Pranamaya

> > > > > > > kosha which is mostly Rajas and Anamayakosha that is

mostly

> > Tamas.

> > > > So

> > > > > > here

> > > > > > > in lies the instrument of karana sakti, and the bhoga

sakti.

> > As of

> > > > > > product

> > > > > > > of Jnana sakti, it has various vrittis.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Desire, representation, doubt, faith, want of faith, want

of

> > > > > > firmness,

> > > > > > > shame, reflection, fear - all in mind" - Brihadaryanka

> > Upanishad

> > > > 1-5-3

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So among many functions Jnana Indriyas is the cognition of

> > > > perception.

> > > > > > But

> > > > > > > senses shall remain in the sthoola sarira. Pranas that

> > prevades

> > > > the

> > > > > > anamaya

> > > > > > > kosha or the sthoola sarira, shall be the sthana of Karma

> > > > Indriyas,

> > > > > > meaning

> > > > > > > the enabling the function of action. It is the carrier of

> > Manomaya

> > > > > > kosha's

> > > > > > > directives to the limbs and organs of actions of the body.

> > Again

> > > > it is

> > > > > > one

> > > > > > > of the functions and not a separate place, or identity.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As Mano-maya kosha prevades the pranamaya kosha, the

function

> > of

> > > > > > perception

> > > > > > > shall prevade the pranamaya kosha but the senses itself

shall

> > not

> > > > > > prevade

> > > > > > > the pranamaya kosha. As Pranamaya does not have distinct

> > parts,

> > > > just

> > > > > > as in

> > > > > > > manomaya kosha, it is a unity present in every part of the

> > body

> > > > > > performing

> > > > > > > its functions.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now, I see you mention 10 pranas. It is correct, though

> > generally

> > > > 5

> > > > > > > prominent ones are used and in the Upanishad these five

are

> > > > mentioned.

> > > > > > > (Maitreya Up. 2-6)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Trimshamshas are pancha jnanendriyas.Sun and Moon do not

have

> > any

> > > > > > > ownership here.When we think it is clear.

> > > > > > > It is the indriyas through which we are drawing

impressions

> > from

> > > > the

> > > > > > > external and hence the cause for evils.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If we see the same, then, what I had suggested to you and

the

> > > > forum,

> > > > > > earlier

> > > > > > > could be true. D1-D12 - Anamaya kosha D13-D24 Pranamaya

Kosha,

> > > > D25-D36

> > > > > > > (where in D30 lies) Manomaya Kosha. (This was followed by

chat

> > > > with

> > > > > > Sri Hari

> > > > > > > and Sri Parthasarathy too)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Could then, divisional charts (D25-D36) relate to the

> > different

> > > > > > functions of

> > > > > > > the mind? I am certain of two things:

> > > > > > > 1. They can be used separately in view of the above- how

we

> > need

> > > > to

> > > > > > find

> > > > > > > out. Possible clues could be checking the cognition of

> > different

> > > > > > stimuli,

> > > > > > > what desires move about, in what the person's faith lies,

etc.

> > > > After

> > > > > > all,

> > > > > > > the causes of bodily actions lie in these charts, there is

> > much

> > > > more

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > them.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2. More research is needed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks and Regards

> > > > > > > Bharat

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On 2/19/06, vijayadas_pradeep vijayadas_pradeep@ wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear Anilkumar ji,Arjun ji ,Bharatji Namaskaar

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > EkaVimshopi(21) constituents of Sookshma shareera are

> > composed

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > dwadasha(12) Budhindriyaadis and navapranas.

> > > > > > > > Here 12,Budhi-indriyaadis are Budhi,Manas and 10

Indriyas.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Arjun ji as you may be aware,Organs are different from

> > indriyas.

> > > > > > > > 1)Jnanendriyas -smell,taste,see,touch,hear.

> > > > > > > > 2)Karmendriyas -excrete,reproduce,move,grasp,speak.

> > > > > > > > Thus nose,ear,legs etc are the organs corresponding to

the

> > above

> > > > 10

> > > > > > > > indriyas.

> > > > > > > > Nava Pranas are -

> > > > > > > >

Pranan,Apanan,Samanan,Vyanan,Udanan,Nagam,Koormam,Krikalam &

> > > > > > > > Devadattam.Tenth Prana Dhananjaya,is for dead bodies.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Rashi is sthoola shareera ,comprising of Organs.But

organs

> > are

> > > > just

> > > > > > > > structures if there is no life.Thus Purusha manifests as

> > Prana.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Trimshamshas are pancha jnanendriyas.Sun and Moon do not

> > have

> > > > any

> > > > > > > > ownership here.When we think it is clear.

> > > > > > > > It is the indriyas through which we are drawing

impressions

> > from

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > external and hence the cause for evils.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Can indriyas alone be considered as a Bhava?No.Bhava is

the

> > > > > > confluence

> > > > > > > > of many.We should think how it is possible to study all

> > aspects

> > > > > > > > pertaining to a jataka from ''Rashi Chakra''.

> > > > > > > > This is possible as, one rashi becomes a bhava,when it

has a

> > > > lord

> > > > > > w.r

> > > > > > > > to lagna.For properly understanding the functioning of

each

> > > > Bhava,we

> > > > > > > > have to see the subtle infleunces on bhava nathas.Each

> > subtle

> > > > > > > > infleunce will have a role,for eg,navamsha infleunce is

> > > > > > corresponding

> > > > > > > > to kalathra,bhagya etc.

> > > > > > > > Thus sookshma shareera acts in sync with corresponding

> > sthoola

> > > > > > > > shareera organs.Trying to study them in isolation or

> > considering

> > > > > > Bhava

> > > > > > > > there is beyond my understanding.Others who have

understood

> > may

> > > > > > > > explain for better comprehension.We should think why we

do

> > not

> > > > have

> > > > > > > > shlokas to support bhavas in vargamsha groupings.Why is

> > > > Vargottama

> > > > > > > > important?Any planet is a Bhavanatha or karaka.When he

is

> > having

> > > > > > > > similar subtle and gross infleuences,shubha results.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > When time permits ,i can share some more from the works

of

> > > > > > > > Mahamunis,if it is helpful for you.Mind - and its

> > > > > > > > constituents,improtance of chitta(past impressions

> > and),Budhi,

> > > > > > > > Ahamkara etc.Chitta is also 5th house and PoorvaPunya.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thanks

> > > > > > > > Pradeep

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > vedic astrology,

"panditarjun2004"

> > > > > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > namaste bharat ji

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > i am looking at how to read from the signs, houses or

> > planets

> > > > on

> > > > > > all

> > > > > > > > > kinds of indriyas (not body organs). we all learnt how

> > bodily

> > > > > > parts

> > > > > > > > > are read from various houses starting from head from

langa

> > to

> > > > feet

> > > > > > > > > in the 12th. please share on reading of these indriyas

> > > > (sensory

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > non-sensory) from a sign/house/planet.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > the two nadis ida and pingala are related to sun and

moon.

> > > > > > > > > similarly please share how the five vayus are read in

> > > > astrology.

> > > > > > i

> > > > > > > > > understand that the seven chakras (mooladhara,

> > svadhisthana,

> > > > > > > > > manipuraka, anahata, vishuddha, ajna and sahasrara)

can

> > also

> > > > be

> > > > > > read

> > > > > > > > > from a chart and have their correlation with signs,

houses

> > and

> > > > > > > > > planets. would be grateful if any member share

information

> > on

> > > > > > this.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > with best wishes and regards

> > > > > > > > > arjun

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "Bharat Hindu

> > > > Astrology"

> > > > > > > > > <hinduastrology@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Namaskaar Sri Arjun

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The Jnanaindriyas are the five senses of perception.

The

> > > > five

> > > > > > > > > karma indriyas

> > > > > > > > > > are organs of speech, hands, legs, organ of

procreation,

> > and

> > > > > > organ

> > > > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > excretion. The pranamaya kosha (prana, apana, udana,

> > vyana

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > > samana)

> > > > > > > > > > provide the forces that make the indriyas function.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards

> > > > > > > > > > Bharat

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > On 2/18/06, panditarjun2004 <panditarjun2004@>

wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > dear anil ji

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > you wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Pradeep:Thus Rashis are 12 and they constitue 12

> > organs

> > > > as

> > > > > > > > > well as

> > > > > > > > > > > > 12 bhavas.Sookshma shareera consists of

navapranas

> > and

> > > > 12

> > > > > > > > > indiryas.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Anil:There are 5 Jnyanendriyas and 5

Karmendriyas so

> > 10

> > > > > > only.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Please give supporting verses. Organs and

Indriyas

> > are

> > > > > > > > > different.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > without knowing whether the indriyas are twelve or

> > ten, i

> > > > > > would

> > > > > > > > > request

> > > > > > > > > > > you to give their correlation to signs or houses

in

> > > > seriatim

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > me to

> > > > > > > > > > > learn more.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > yes you are right in saying that organs are

different

> > from

> > > > > > > > > indriyas and

> > > > > > > > > > > it is organs which we consider for medical

astrology.

> > if

> > > > you

> > > > > > > > > share

> > > > > > > > > > > your knowledge on indriyas it would help me

understand

> > > > better.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > with best wishes

> > > > > > > > > > > arjun

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Archives:

vedic astrology

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Group info: vedic-

> > > > > > > > > astrology/info.html

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu ||

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Astrology chart</gads?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

t=ms&k=Astrology+chart&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astro

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

logy+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=UoktiPHSoTwQkpGMXB

> > > > > > > > > NeEg> Vedic

> > > > > > > > > > > astrology</gads?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astro

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

logy+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=qNtEn5POAbTpzmtNKI

> > > > > > > > > dnHA> Astrology

> > > > > > > > > > > horoscope</gads?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=A

> > > > > > > > >

> > > >

strology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=8kShDb5zI-

> > > > > > > > > EsRMSq6tgiew> Astrology

> > > > > > > > > > > software</gads?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

t=ms&k=Astrology+software&w1=Astrology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=As

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

trology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4&s=91&.sig=Je51jg697mjdLNt

> > > > > > > > > 6iLuaCw>

> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------

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> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > - Visit your group "vedic-

> > > > > > > > >

astrology<vedic astrology>"

> > > > > > > > > > > on the web.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > - To from this group, send an email

to:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > vedic astrology<vedic astrology-

> > > > > > > > > ?subject=Un

>

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > - Your use of is subject to the

 

> > Terms

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > > Service <>.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Group info:

> > > > vedic astrology/info.html

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to

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> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu ||

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Astrology

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

chart</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+chart&w1=Astrology+c\

\</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+chart&w1=Astrology+c%5C

>

> >

\</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+chart&w1=Astrology+c%5C

>

> > > >

> >

\</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+chart&w1=Astrology+c%5C

>

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

hart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software&c=4\

\

> > \

> > > > \

> > > > > > &s=91&.sig=UoktiPHSoTwQkpGMXBNeEg> Vedic

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

astrology</gads?t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrolo\

\</gads?t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrolo%5C

>

> > \</gads?t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrolo%5C

>

> > > >

\</gads?t=ms&k=Vedic+astrology&w1=Astrolo%5C

>

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

gy+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+software\

\

> > \

> > > > \

> > > > > > &c=4&s=91&.sig=qNtEn5POAbTpzmtNKIdnHA> Astrology

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

horoscope</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Ast\

\</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Ast%5C

>

> > \</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Ast%5C

>

> > > >

\</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+horoscope&w1=Ast%5C

>

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

rology+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+soft\

\

> > \

> > > > \

> > > > > > ware&c=4&s=91&.sig=8kShDb5zI-EsRMSq6tgiew> Astrology

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

software</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+software&w1=Astro\

\</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+software&w1=Astro%5C

>

> >

\</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+software&w1=Astro%5C

>

> > > >

> >

\</gads?t=ms&k=Astrology+software&w1=Astro%5C

>

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

logy+chart&w2=Vedic+astrology&w3=Astrology+horoscope&w4=Astrology+softwa\

\

> > \

> > > > \

> > > > > > re&c=4&s=91&.sig=Je51jg697mjdLNt6iLuaCw>

> > > > > > > > ------------------------------

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > - Visit your group

> > > > > >

"vedic astrology<vedic astrology>"

> > > > > > > > on the web.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > -

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > vedic astrology-@@y\

> > > > > > ahoogroups.com?subject=Un>

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > -

Terms

> > of

> > &gt...[Message clipped]