Guest guest Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Hi Shiva, The free will of an individual in a democratic society does give one an opportunity to explore the intriguing details of the untouched and unexplored experiences. Be it from casting your vote to assuming a situation where one may land into. But yet you will cast your vote to a person who you feel by your free will is the right choice. Not because some astrologer told you to cast your vote to a particular person only or otherwise if you dont then you will face the consequences in the time to come. Let s take your questions one by one 1. Assuming the predicament one finds into the chances of becoming a doctor or an engineer are remote if you dont study hard even to clear the entrance exam or pay for an NRI seat(if your father has lots of money) even if you have the guidance of an astrologer who has read the charts in detail and followed the principles properly. 2. Assuming the person is free to make decisions why in the world do you think he will go to an astrologer, forget consulting an astrologer. It is common sense if a person is free to make decisions then consulting an astrologer is not his free decision when one thinks that astrologer will be biased. So the question should be why should one (who makes owns decisions) visit an astrologer. 3. Again the main use of astrologer is only served when one visits an astrologer and uses his service. According to a person exhibiting his free will(and only accepts unbiased opinion) what do think are the chances of changing his free will and mindset that he will not cast the vote at all(what has to happen, will happen) with one pre condition he has got the name enrolled in the voters list. 4. Last but not the least can you predict from a persons birth chart if this person will consult astrologer in his lifetime is quite interesting. As to begin first of all, a birth chart is made by an astrologer( nowdays we have lots of softwares also) so in a way there is a light at the end of tunnel which you need to see. The fact is anyone who is in the process of getting a birthchart made has in a way consulted an astrologer. So you see if tomorrow you become an astrologer and someone comes up with the same question in one of the readings. The chances are 100 % yes as you are holding the birthchart of the person which is a proof that your prediction is bound to be true. I hope that the above will also satisfy any other members of the group who have a more generous attitude of analysing things with their free will. Gaurav , "trialjig" <trialjig> wrote: > Hi group, > > I have been interested in astrology for sometime now and have done > some preliminary reading, but not much. But i would like to ask you > some opinions > > 1. Assuming the astrologer has read your chart in great detail and > has spelled out a course of events, how much free-will is available > to the person whose chart is read? > > For example, let us say a +2 student goes to an astrologer and asks > what his profession is likely to be and the astrologer says : you > will be in the field of medicine.... At this point, what are the > chances of this person becoming a computer engineer??? Assume that > the astrologer is using a well known system of astrology and he has > read the charts in detail and followed the principles properly??? > > 2. If a person is free to make his own decisions, why should he > consult an astrologer, an astrolger then puts a bias on the > decisions of the person. > > 3. If what has to happen, will happen then again what is the use of > an astrologer? > > 4. I am guessing most people only visit an astrologer when they have > troubles, Can you predict from a persons birth chart if this person > wil consult astrologer in his lifetime, if yes then during what > times in his life???? > > It would be great to know what people this about these... > > - Shiva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Hi gaurav, Interesting points, but let me clear something, on second readin i guess my questions were not very clear 1. If a person has let us say 2 choices and he goes to an astrologer and then the astrologer says choice 1 is better according your charts, then Is this person's decision not biased(( not the astrologer)) by fear of facing difficulties if he chose choice 2. 2. If what has to happen, will happen( irresepective of a person going to an astrologer or not) then what is the use of going to an astrologer? 3. My question was, can you tell by a person's birth chart, if he will visit an astrologer? for this question it is like asking randomly if a person is born on june 14 2004 in delhi, india at 12.00 noon, will he/she goto an astrologer in his lifetime All 3 queries are independent and they are not the same person, i am just asking these because i am still curious about role of astrology in a persons life -Shiva , "gauravkom" <gauravkom> wrote: > Hi Shiva, > The free will of an individual in a democratic society does > give one an opportunity to explore the intriguing details of the > untouched and unexplored experiences. Be it from casting your vote to > assuming a situation where one may land into. But yet you will cast > your vote to a person who you feel by your free will is the right > choice. Not because some astrologer told you to cast your vote to a > particular person only or otherwise if you dont then you will face > the consequences in the time to come. Let s take your questions one > by one > > 1. Assuming the predicament one finds into the chances of becoming a > doctor or an engineer are remote if you dont study hard even to clear > the entrance exam or pay for an NRI seat(if your father has lots of > money) even if you have the guidance of an astrologer who has read > the charts in detail and followed the principles properly. > > 2. Assuming the person is free to make decisions why in the world do > you think he will go to an astrologer, forget consulting an > astrologer. It is common sense if a person is free to make decisions > then consulting an astrologer is not his free decision when one > thinks that astrologer will be biased. So the question should be why > should one (who makes owns decisions) visit an astrologer. > > 3. Again the main use of astrologer is only served when one visits an > astrologer and uses his service. According to a person exhibiting his > free will(and only accepts unbiased opinion) what do think are the > chances of changing his free will and mindset that he will not cast > the vote at all(what has to happen, will happen) with one pre > condition he has got the name enrolled in the voters list. > > 4. Last but not the least can you predict from a persons birth chart > if this person will consult astrologer in his lifetime is quite > interesting. As to begin first of all, a birth chart is made by an > astrologer( nowdays we have lots of softwares also) so in a way there > is a light at the end of tunnel which you need to see. The fact is > anyone who is in the process of getting a birthchart made has in a > way consulted an astrologer. So you see if tomorrow you become an > astrologer and someone comes up with the same question in one of the > readings. The chances are 100 % yes as you are holding the birthchart > of the person which is a proof that your prediction is bound to be > true. > > I hope that the above will also satisfy any other members of the > group who have a more generous attitude of analysing things with > their free will. > > Gaurav > > > > , "trialjig" <trialjig> > wrote: > > Hi group, > > > > I have been interested in astrology for sometime now and have done > > some preliminary reading, but not much. But i would like to ask you > > some opinions > > > > 1. Assuming the astrologer has read your chart in great detail and > > has spelled out a course of events, how much free-will is available > > to the person whose chart is read? > > > > For example, let us say a +2 student goes to an astrologer and asks > > what his profession is likely to be and the astrologer says : you > > will be in the field of medicine.... At this point, what are the > > chances of this person becoming a computer engineer??? Assume that > > the astrologer is using a well known system of astrology and he has > > read the charts in detail and followed the principles properly??? > > > > 2. If a person is free to make his own decisions, why should he > > consult an astrologer, an astrolger then puts a bias on the > > decisions of the person. > > > > 3. If what has to happen, will happen then again what is the use of > > an astrologer? > > > > 4. I am guessing most people only visit an astrologer when they > have > > troubles, Can you predict from a persons birth chart if this person > > wil consult astrologer in his lifetime, if yes then during what > > times in his life???? > > > > It would be great to know what people this about these... > > > > - Shiva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Hi Shiva, Perhaps you would have also taken my replies independently then the answers would be more clear. Anyways, the answers what i feel should be are here but they may differ from person to person 1. first of all, if an astrologer has suggested you to join an X profession whereas you want to join Y, there is a reasoning behind it. Without any reason he wont suggest any profession( we are talking about good astrologers). The reason is simple it is for the benefit of the individual. Everyone aims for the betterment in this world and rightly should be. So the decision should be seen as a step towards one `s betterment not being biased. And the simple reason is experience and knowledge of the astrologer which you are relying upon. 2. The answer is we cannot change the bad time or the bad effects but certainly can lessen the effects by consulting a good astrologer for possible remedies. So you see the main aim is to develop a positive frame of mindset and not remain closed in a room where one is repeating the words what has to happen, will happen. Just remember it is only and only by God`s grace that we can lessen the effects and astrologer is just a medium. 3. Well the answer to this one can be given someone who is more experienced than me perhaps Rohini ji would be a better person. As i myself have never done such a prediction. I think you have got your answers to some extent. All the best in your quest. Gaurav , "trialjig" <trialjig> wrote: > Hi gaurav, > > Interesting points, but let me clear something, on second readin i > guess my questions were not very clear > > 1. If a person has let us say 2 choices and he goes to an astrologer > and then the astrologer says choice 1 is better according your > charts, then Is this person's decision not biased(( not the > astrologer)) by fear of facing difficulties if he chose choice 2. > > 2. If what has to happen, will happen( irresepective of a person > going to an astrologer or not) then what is the use of going to an > astrologer? > > 3. My question was, can you tell by a person's birth chart, if he > will visit an astrologer? for this question it is like asking > randomly if a person is born on june 14 2004 in delhi, india at 12.00 > noon, will he/she goto an astrologer in his lifetime > > > All 3 queries are independent and they are not the same person, i am > just asking these because i am still curious about role of astrology > in a persons life > > > -Shiva > > > , "gauravkom" <gauravkom> > wrote: > > Hi Shiva, > > The free will of an individual in a democratic society does > > give one an opportunity to explore the intriguing details of the > > untouched and unexplored experiences. Be it from casting your vote > to > > assuming a situation where one may land into. But yet you will cast > > your vote to a person who you feel by your free will is the right > > choice. Not because some astrologer told you to cast your vote to a > > particular person only or otherwise if you dont then you will face > > the consequences in the time to come. Let s take your questions one > > by one > > > > 1. Assuming the predicament one finds into the chances of becoming > a > > doctor or an engineer are remote if you dont study hard even to > clear > > the entrance exam or pay for an NRI seat(if your father has lots of > > money) even if you have the guidance of an astrologer who has read > > the charts in detail and followed the principles properly. > > > > 2. Assuming the person is free to make decisions why in the world > do > > you think he will go to an astrologer, forget consulting an > > astrologer. It is common sense if a person is free to make > decisions > > then consulting an astrologer is not his free decision when one > > thinks that astrologer will be biased. So the question should be > why > > should one (who makes owns decisions) visit an astrologer. > > > > 3. Again the main use of astrologer is only served when one visits > an > > astrologer and uses his service. According to a person exhibiting > his > > free will(and only accepts unbiased opinion) what do think are the > > chances of changing his free will and mindset that he will not cast > > the vote at all(what has to happen, will happen) with one pre > > condition he has got the name enrolled in the voters list. > > > > 4. Last but not the least can you predict from a persons birth > chart > > if this person will consult astrologer in his lifetime is quite > > interesting. As to begin first of all, a birth chart is made by an > > astrologer( nowdays we have lots of softwares also) so in a way > there > > is a light at the end of tunnel which you need to see. The fact is > > anyone who is in the process of getting a birthchart made has in a > > way consulted an astrologer. So you see if tomorrow you become an > > astrologer and someone comes up with the same question in one of > the > > readings. The chances are 100 % yes as you are holding the > birthchart > > of the person which is a proof that your prediction is bound to be > > true. > > > > I hope that the above will also satisfy any other members of the > > group who have a more generous attitude of analysing things with > > their free will. > > > > Gaurav > > > > > > > > , "trialjig" <trialjig> > > wrote: > > > Hi group, > > > > > > I have been interested in astrology for sometime now and have > done > > > some preliminary reading, but not much. But i would like to ask > you > > > some opinions > > > > > > 1. Assuming the astrologer has read your chart in great detail > and > > > has spelled out a course of events, how much free-will is > available > > > to the person whose chart is read? > > > > > > For example, let us say a +2 student goes to an astrologer and > asks > > > what his profession is likely to be and the astrologer says : you > > > will be in the field of medicine.... At this point, what are the > > > chances of this person becoming a computer engineer??? Assume > that > > > the astrologer is using a well known system of astrology and he > has > > > read the charts in detail and followed the principles properly??? > > > > > > 2. If a person is free to make his own decisions, why should he > > > consult an astrologer, an astrolger then puts a bias on the > > > decisions of the person. > > > > > > 3. If what has to happen, will happen then again what is the use > of > > > an astrologer? > > > > > > 4. I am guessing most people only visit an astrologer when they > > have > > > troubles, Can you predict from a persons birth chart if this > person > > > wil consult astrologer in his lifetime, if yes then during what > > > times in his life???? > > > > > > It would be great to know what people this about these... > > > > > > - Shiva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Gaurav, The answer to 3 is already there in item 3 in Shiva's posting! It was a rhetorical question :-) RR , "gauravkom" <gauravkom> wrote: > Hi Shiva, > Perhaps you would have also taken my replies independently > then the answers would be more clear. Anyways, the answers what i > feel should be are here but they may differ from person to person > > 1. first of all, if an astrologer has suggested you to join an X > profession whereas you want to join Y, there is a reasoning behind > it. Without any reason he wont suggest any profession( we are talking > about good astrologers). The reason is simple it is for the benefit > of the individual. Everyone aims for the betterment in this world and > rightly should be. So the decision should be seen as a step towards > one `s betterment not being biased. And the simple reason is > experience and knowledge of the astrologer which you are relying upon. > > 2. The answer is we cannot change the bad time or the bad effects but > certainly can lessen the effects by consulting a good astrologer for > possible remedies. So you see the main aim is to develop a positive > frame of mindset and not remain closed in a room where one is > repeating the words what has to happen, will happen. Just remember it > is only and only by God`s grace that we can lessen the effects and > astrologer is just a medium. > > 3. Well the answer to this one can be given someone who is more > experienced than me perhaps Rohini ji would be a better person. As i > myself have never done such a prediction. > > I think you have got your answers to some extent. All the best in > your quest. > > Gaurav > > , "trialjig" <trialjig> > wrote: > > Hi gaurav, > > > > Interesting points, but let me clear something, on second readin i > > guess my questions were not very clear > > > > 1. If a person has let us say 2 choices and he goes to an > astrologer > > and then the astrologer says choice 1 is better according your > > charts, then Is this person's decision not biased(( not the > > astrologer)) by fear of facing difficulties if he chose choice 2. > > > > 2. If what has to happen, will happen( irresepective of a person > > going to an astrologer or not) then what is the use of going to an > > astrologer? > > > > 3. My question was, can you tell by a person's birth chart, if he > > will visit an astrologer? for this question it is like asking > > randomly if a person is born on june 14 2004 in delhi, india at > 12.00 > > noon, will he/she goto an astrologer in his lifetime > > > > > > All 3 queries are independent and they are not the same person, i > am > > just asking these because i am still curious about role of > astrology > > in a persons life > > > > > > -Shiva > > > > > > , "gauravkom" > <gauravkom> > > wrote: > > > Hi Shiva, > > > The free will of an individual in a democratic society > does > > > give one an opportunity to explore the intriguing details of the > > > untouched and unexplored experiences. Be it from casting your > vote > > to > > > assuming a situation where one may land into. But yet you will > cast > > > your vote to a person who you feel by your free will is the right > > > choice. Not because some astrologer told you to cast your vote to > a > > > particular person only or otherwise if you dont then you will > face > > > the consequences in the time to come. Let s take your questions > one > > > by one > > > > > > 1. Assuming the predicament one finds into the chances of > becoming > > a > > > doctor or an engineer are remote if you dont study hard even to > > clear > > > the entrance exam or pay for an NRI seat(if your father has lots > of > > > money) even if you have the guidance of an astrologer who has > read > > > the charts in detail and followed the principles properly. > > > > > > 2. Assuming the person is free to make decisions why in the world > > do > > > you think he will go to an astrologer, forget consulting an > > > astrologer. It is common sense if a person is free to make > > decisions > > > then consulting an astrologer is not his free decision when one > > > thinks that astrologer will be biased. So the question should be > > why > > > should one (who makes owns decisions) visit an astrologer. > > > > > > 3. Again the main use of astrologer is only served when one > visits > > an > > > astrologer and uses his service. According to a person exhibiting > > his > > > free will(and only accepts unbiased opinion) what do think are > the > > > chances of changing his free will and mindset that he will not > cast > > > the vote at all(what has to happen, will happen) with one pre > > > condition he has got the name enrolled in the voters list. > > > > > > 4. Last but not the least can you predict from a persons birth > > chart > > > if this person will consult astrologer in his lifetime is quite > > > interesting. As to begin first of all, a birth chart is made by > an > > > astrologer( nowdays we have lots of softwares also) so in a way > > there > > > is a light at the end of tunnel which you need to see. The fact > is > > > anyone who is in the process of getting a birthchart made has in > a > > > way consulted an astrologer. So you see if tomorrow you become an > > > astrologer and someone comes up with the same question in one of > > the > > > readings. The chances are 100 % yes as you are holding the > > birthchart > > > of the person which is a proof that your prediction is bound to > be > > > true. > > > > > > I hope that the above will also satisfy any other members of the > > > group who have a more generous attitude of analysing things with > > > their free will. > > > > > > Gaurav > > > > > > > > > > > > , "trialjig" > <trialjig> > > > wrote: > > > > Hi group, > > > > > > > > I have been interested in astrology for sometime now and have > > done > > > > some preliminary reading, but not much. But i would like to ask > > you > > > > some opinions > > > > > > > > 1. Assuming the astrologer has read your chart in great detail > > and > > > > has spelled out a course of events, how much free-will is > > available > > > > to the person whose chart is read? > > > > > > > > For example, let us say a +2 student goes to an astrologer and > > asks > > > > what his profession is likely to be and the astrologer says : > you > > > > will be in the field of medicine.... At this point, what are > the > > > > chances of this person becoming a computer engineer??? Assume > > that > > > > the astrologer is using a well known system of astrology and he > > has > > > > read the charts in detail and followed the principles > properly??? > > > > > > > > 2. If a person is free to make his own decisions, why should he > > > > consult an astrologer, an astrolger then puts a bias on the > > > > decisions of the person. > > > > > > > > 3. If what has to happen, will happen then again what is the > use > > of > > > > an astrologer? > > > > > > > > 4. I am guessing most people only visit an astrologer when they > > > have > > > > troubles, Can you predict from a persons birth chart if this > > person > > > > wil consult astrologer in his lifetime, if yes then during what > > > > times in his life???? > > > > > > > > It would be great to know what people this about these... > > > > > > > > - Shiva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hi Shiva, So you see now that some questions do also reveal the answers. Thanks Rohini ji.... Gaurav , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> wrote: > Gaurav, > > The answer to 3 is already there in item 3 in Shiva's posting! It > was a rhetorical question :-) > > RR > > > > , "gauravkom" > <gauravkom> wrote: > > Hi Shiva, > > Perhaps you would have also taken my replies > independently > > then the answers would be more clear. Anyways, the answers what i > > feel should be are here but they may differ from person to person > > > > 1. first of all, if an astrologer has suggested you to join an X > > profession whereas you want to join Y, there is a reasoning behind > > it. Without any reason he wont suggest any profession( we are > talking > > about good astrologers). The reason is simple it is for the > benefit > > of the individual. Everyone aims for the betterment in this world > and > > rightly should be. So the decision should be seen as a step > towards > > one `s betterment not being biased. And the simple reason is > > experience and knowledge of the astrologer which you are relying > upon. > > > > 2. The answer is we cannot change the bad time or the bad effects > but > > certainly can lessen the effects by consulting a good astrologer > for > > possible remedies. So you see the main aim is to develop a > positive > > frame of mindset and not remain closed in a room where one is > > repeating the words what has to happen, will happen. Just remember > it > > is only and only by God`s grace that we can lessen the effects and > > astrologer is just a medium. > > > > 3. Well the answer to this one can be given someone who is more > > experienced than me perhaps Rohini ji would be a better person. As > i > > myself have never done such a prediction. > > > > I think you have got your answers to some extent. All the best in > > your quest. > > > > Gaurav > > > > , "trialjig" > <trialjig> > > wrote: > > > Hi gaurav, > > > > > > Interesting points, but let me clear something, on second readin > i > > > guess my questions were not very clear > > > > > > 1. If a person has let us say 2 choices and he goes to an > > astrologer > > > and then the astrologer says choice 1 is better according your > > > charts, then Is this person's decision not biased(( not the > > > astrologer)) by fear of facing difficulties if he chose choice 2. > > > > > > 2. If what has to happen, will happen( irresepective of a person > > > going to an astrologer or not) then what is the use of going to > an > > > astrologer? > > > > > > 3. My question was, can you tell by a person's birth chart, if > he > > > will visit an astrologer? for this question it is like asking > > > randomly if a person is born on june 14 2004 in delhi, india at > > 12.00 > > > noon, will he/she goto an astrologer in his lifetime > > > > > > > > > All 3 queries are independent and they are not the same person, > i > > am > > > just asking these because i am still curious about role of > > astrology > > > in a persons life > > > > > > > > > -Shiva > > > > > > > > > , "gauravkom" > > <gauravkom> > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Shiva, > > > > The free will of an individual in a democratic society > > does > > > > give one an opportunity to explore the intriguing details of > the > > > > untouched and unexplored experiences. Be it from casting your > > vote > > > to > > > > assuming a situation where one may land into. But yet you will > > cast > > > > your vote to a person who you feel by your free will is the > right > > > > choice. Not because some astrologer told you to cast your vote > to > > a > > > > particular person only or otherwise if you dont then you will > > face > > > > the consequences in the time to come. Let s take your > questions > > one > > > > by one > > > > > > > > 1. Assuming the predicament one finds into the chances of > > becoming > > > a > > > > doctor or an engineer are remote if you dont study hard even > to > > > clear > > > > the entrance exam or pay for an NRI seat(if your father has > lots > > of > > > > money) even if you have the guidance of an astrologer who has > > read > > > > the charts in detail and followed the principles properly. > > > > > > > > 2. Assuming the person is free to make decisions why in the > world > > > do > > > > you think he will go to an astrologer, forget consulting an > > > > astrologer. It is common sense if a person is free to make > > > decisions > > > > then consulting an astrologer is not his free decision when > one > > > > thinks that astrologer will be biased. So the question should > be > > > why > > > > should one (who makes owns decisions) visit an astrologer. > > > > > > > > 3. Again the main use of astrologer is only served when one > > visits > > > an > > > > astrologer and uses his service. According to a person > exhibiting > > > his > > > > free will(and only accepts unbiased opinion) what do think are > > the > > > > chances of changing his free will and mindset that he will not > > cast > > > > the vote at all(what has to happen, will happen) with one pre > > > > condition he has got the name enrolled in the voters list. > > > > > > > > 4. Last but not the least can you predict from a persons birth > > > chart > > > > if this person will consult astrologer in his lifetime is > quite > > > > interesting. As to begin first of all, a birth chart is made > by > > an > > > > astrologer( nowdays we have lots of softwares also) so in a > way > > > there > > > > is a light at the end of tunnel which you need to see. The > fact > > is > > > > anyone who is in the process of getting a birthchart made has > in > > a > > > > way consulted an astrologer. So you see if tomorrow you become > an > > > > astrologer and someone comes up with the same question in one > of > > > the > > > > readings. The chances are 100 % yes as you are holding the > > > birthchart > > > > of the person which is a proof that your prediction is bound > to > > be > > > > true. > > > > > > > > I hope that the above will also satisfy any other members of > the > > > > group who have a more generous attitude of analysing things > with > > > > their free will. > > > > > > > > Gaurav > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "trialjig" > > <trialjig> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi group, > > > > > > > > > > I have been interested in astrology for sometime now and > have > > > done > > > > > some preliminary reading, but not much. But i would like to > ask > > > you > > > > > some opinions > > > > > > > > > > 1. Assuming the astrologer has read your chart in great > detail > > > and > > > > > has spelled out a course of events, how much free-will is > > > available > > > > > to the person whose chart is read? > > > > > > > > > > For example, let us say a +2 student goes to an astrologer > and > > > asks > > > > > what his profession is likely to be and the astrologer > says : > > you > > > > > will be in the field of medicine.... At this point, what are > > the > > > > > chances of this person becoming a computer engineer??? > Assume > > > that > > > > > the astrologer is using a well known system of astrology and > he > > > has > > > > > read the charts in detail and followed the principles > > properly??? > > > > > > > > > > 2. If a person is free to make his own decisions, why should > he > > > > > consult an astrologer, an astrolger then puts a bias on the > > > > > decisions of the person. > > > > > > > > > > 3. If what has to happen, will happen then again what is the > > use > > > of > > > > > an astrologer? > > > > > > > > > > 4. I am guessing most people only visit an astrologer when > they > > > > have > > > > > troubles, Can you predict from a persons birth chart if this > > > person > > > > > wil consult astrologer in his lifetime, if yes then during > what > > > > > times in his life???? > > > > > > > > > > It would be great to know what people this about these... > > > > > > > > > > - Shiva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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