Guest guest Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 ---------= -- "venkat_partha" <venkat_partha> Sat May 8, 2004 12:54 am [satva] Sorry to see this happening. Hello Everyone, It was a sense of disbelief and utter horror that I got when I went through the mailing list of the past 2 months. We have been witnessing a lot of bickering, childishness, and immaturity from all those involved in this clash. I know I will be getting a lot of backlash from those involved. But, here it goes. I wanted to study astrology and came across this site not so very long ago. Even before I could explore and learn, a few related sites to this system are shut down - what ever their reason. I feel that this is a major loss to the SA system as propounded by VKC and to the system of astrology as a whole. Is this what you wanted Mr. VKC ? You wanted to promote this system that it benefits others. You wanted that it should be used to do good. You imparted this knowledge to others for that purpose, - and others have their right to dissent- then why is there a possessiveness now? As I see, you have lost/thrown out a few members as a result of this strife. Is this you want Mr. VKC ? That people who are opposed to you in principle should no longer be in the list. You have burnt a large number of bridges Mr. VKC. What you have left here is just the chaff, people who would not be disagreeing with you and your views under any circumstances. Is that healthy. I hope you remember this couplet by Kabir(i think) "Nindak Niyare Raakhiye, Aangan Kuti Chavaai" If we hear the same criticism more than once, we should pay close attention, perhaps something is wrong somewhere? I think no one enjoys critisism, but we should take it as it is ment for our own good. Hope Sense Prevails. Regards Venkatesh P ---------= -- amit_patnaik6 Tuesday, May 04, 2004 4:30 PM [satva] BOTTOMLINE I dint go on to read the posts any further coz i am ashamed the people fighting on this forum all of us are suppose to help other people in their time of need through astrology, when we cant protect ourself from illusionary situations like this ..why practic astrology, it only shows that beyond everything there is gods energy and we all succumb to our human desires time for time out or lets all hang our boots. ---------= -- SIHA <siha@v...> Wed May 5, 2004 2:59 am Re: [satva] Two Different Cultures Dear Satya, I think it will be better to remove Ms Therese from the list. Best wishes, ---------= -- "Manjunatha Sharma" <manjari_dd@h...> Tue May 4, 2004 10:35 pm RE: [satva] Two Different Cultures Ms Therese It is amazing that with all that experience you have managed to remain an uncultured person--a typical big mouth feminist, the kind of person labeled "Ugly American." You are like a duck which though living in the water is impervious to its effects and the water just rolls off your back. You who in a recent post was saying how women are humble and compassionate. I find neither quality in you just know-it-all arrogance. And perhaps thinking that you now know evrything about India and it's culture that it is okay to be a racist. Fortunately I know that all Americans are not like you. ---------= -- Therese Hamilton <eastwest@s...> Tue May 4, 2004 4:08 pm Two Different Cultures Hello Mr. Choudhry, Thank you for your explanation. What is an NGO??? Here in the United States a person may not use the title of 'Professor' unless he is an actual professor at a state accredited university and also has the multiple required academic credentials. This is generally a Ph.D., which takes many years to acquire. It is inevitable that SA is going to get mixed up with other techniques and modified over time. This has happened to India's Jyotish, which is becoming totally mixed up with western astrology, especially the meanings of signs of the zodiac. The result is less than enlightening and often results in false information being published in books. But some parts of the mix work well, such as some Jyotish astrologers now consider orbs rather than whole sign aspects. So I believe that ultimately the controversy on the SATVA list boils down to very different cultural views as well as the desire to keep SA stable and 'pure.' However, the gods of the universe have made a great mixing bowl here on the earth, and nothing is going to remain pure for long. The 'pure' breaks down into the components that form yet another system or ediface, which in turn will also be broken down. As your legacy you will leave the SA books, which might be studied later as a stopping point on the way to a more enlightened world astrology. Sincerely, Therese Hamilton, M.A., Certified Astrologer, NCGR http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm ---------= -- "SIHA" <siha@v...> Tue May 4, 2004 11:47 am Re: [satva] Re: Who has the greater responsibility? Hello Therese and list members, I have no Ph.d degree. By profession I had been an MBA and worked with Govt of India undertakings. I had been faculty member with Indian Council of Astrological Sciences ICAS in Delhi Chapter. I was conferred upon the title of Professor of Astrology in recognition of my work in the field of Astrology by one of NGOs in India. Best wishes, ---------= -- "thorsteinnt" <ththor@i...> Tue May 4, 2004 12:28 pm Re: Latest on SA and Resignation Dear Sandy, Just one point to help avoid a misunderstanding. I was not suggesting your personal relationships were a problem. I don´t want to infringe on anyones freedom of expression or association. It is none of my business what you do in your private life, think or say. What I was referring to is your other public associations while an officeholder of IIPA. We are both in aggreement that this was a dilemma for you in that capacity, especially after your close associate and friend began to virulently backstab . Your voluntary resignation from IIPA has now ended such a conflict. I believe mentioning this matter helped round out the picture on why you resigned from IIPA. OK, let´s now close this chapter and move on! Wishing you all the best, Sandy! Cheers, Thor Thorgeirsson ---------= -- "Alan Eckert" <alan@a...> Tue May 4, 2004 9:11 am Re: [satva] Jupiter's Web deletion As a former r to this list who recently returned after a long absence, I was saddened to see the level of vituperation and recriminations in a list devoted to the Vedas and the Science of Light. Thanks to those who have tried to keep us focused on the list's purpose of helping each other learn this difficult subject. I found the resources on Sandy Crowther's site very helpful in getting organized to review a chart and in the review process itself, and was disappointed that she felt compelled to dismantle it. It may be that the most recent cross-indexed version will never be seen again, but earlier versions of the site are preserved on the Wayback Machine, and presumably will be available there indefinitely. To view them, go to: http://web.archive.org/web/*/www.jupitersweb.com Sandy, in view of the fact that inferior versions of your site will always remain available, I hope someday you will find it possible to reconsider and repost the more recent, more useful, version. With sincere best wishes, Alan ---------= -- "Sandy Crowther" <sandy@t...> Tue May 4, 2004 6:21 am RE: [satva] Re: Latest on SA and Resignation Dear Thor, I think we need to set the record straight on a few things concerning my decisions, my choices, and my lifestyle, because you have painted a less than accurate picture below with respect to the facts, and there is no one better to clear things up about the truth concerning my life and my decisions other than ME. So please see my comments below. thorsteinnt [ththor@i...] Tuesday, May 04, 2004 4:21 AM [satva] Re: Latest on SA and Resignation Dear Sandy, I am sorry for the wasted effort concerning the SATVA notebook. I also really liked your website and was saddened to see it go. I realise you did not feel like putting in more effort to correct the website by painstakingly removing the notebook. Your website was likely very complex. You then decided to pull it down in its entirety. You then implied this had been ´s wish. [sandy] Thanks Thor – But no - I did not imply any such thing. What I was delicately trying to word in my post were the straight facts about what had just occurred on the Satva list, hence the reason for my lengthy post to Satva/Samva explaining to the group WHY I deleted Jupiter's Web. So let's be clear about this. If you are uncertain as to "exactly" what I said and my reasons for my decision, please re-read my post. If you need to me to make it clearer for you and the list – I shall now make it as clear as I possibly can – but perhaps not so delicately. After indexing and hyper-indexing 537 subjects on my site, the Professor requested that I remove the Satva Notebook immediately based on the "uninvestigated" opinions and allegations of some unknown individual who appeared to blow in from no where, named Soni. So s/he whines about the content on my site, (twice) throws around the name "Ron Grimes" in the process to make the point known, and I respond to his/her post (again for the 2nd time) – telling her that what she has stated is just NOT true. Everything was not written by Ron Grimes – it was a compilation of MANY members – including the Professor. The Professor elects to then dismiss what I was saying entirely in favor of what this unknown list member was saying – who – to my knowledge – had never even posted before. Now really Thor, what kind of a slap in the face is that? What did that CLEARLY tell both me and the list about my opinion as a senior list member or VP of the IIPA? Some unknown list member's opinion is WHAT mattered in this situation – not mine. I don't demand much – but this was a little over the top for me. So the Professor responded according to how he needed to respond, and I did likewise. Like I stated earlier, I am respectful, but far from being a robot. If the entire truth be known, I was certainly well aware that I would need to go through each and every one of those notes in the Satva Notebook to see if any revisions were necessary to update the content, but NO - the opportunity to leisurely do so was never an option. And the fact of the matter is that most of those notes needed no revisions at all – but that was never checked. So the only choice I was left with was to dismantle, because I could not remove anything immediately – I would need days (again) to remove all appropriate hyperlinks, and that just wasn't an option for me. So in light of how the whole situation was handled, and in clear light of how much my opinions really mattered, I elected to delete my site. The Professor didn't tell me to delete my website – that WAS my choice, and I'm sorry if my inference to all this was taken any differently. I simply saw no suitable way around this in light of the Professor's request, and elected to simplify the matter for myself personally. [Thor] Nothing is further from the truth. It was your decision, not ´s, to pull down the entire site. He simply asked for the removal of the notebook. There is a difference, you know, even if there were practical difficulties involved. At the same time, I know this was hard on you. That said, I understand and support ´s actions to take control of SA. It became necessary. [sandy] See above. I guess I just naively expectedly a little more respect. [Thor] Personally, I am also sad to see you leave IIPA and SA. This may, however, be the best outcome for all concerned given your continuing ties with Ron Grimes. [sandy] WHY does it always have to be EITHER you are WITH the Professor and AGAINST Ron Grimes or WITH Ron Grimes and AGAINST the Professor? When did someone determine for ALL of US that this is the `golden rule' to membership at SATVA/SAMVA? So now that I have an opportunity to state my opinion on your statement above, in my personal opinion, this mentality and mindset is totally absurd, and I have resented for years that anyone even DARE to tell me I must only play on only ONE side of the fence at all times. Is there not room for many people in astrology? Can I not respect many people and their contributions in astrology? And are we `sinners' if we explore the opinions of many? I think not. My first mentor was Barbara Cameron – am I being disloyal to her teachings because I also enjoy the Professor's teachings, Vedic teachings, Magi teachings, and other teachings? Please don't ever suggest to me again who I should or should not be associated with because it is not your call to make. With all due respect, it is simply no one's business, but mine. I hope this better explains my position, which only I have the right to determine. I don't mean to sound hostile – but I needed to drive this point home once and for all, because I think other list members – many other list members – feel the same way as I do. So please take it in the spirit for which it was given, and respect my personal choices to act independently as I deem right. [Thor] Besides, your activity on the SA lists had tapered off in recent years while you served as moderator of the list run by Ron Grimes. I have to say I felt uncomfortable with you, as a Vice President of IIPA, [sandy] I already knew that. It is NO secret to me that you have felt this way about me for a long time based on what you believe to be your personal set of truths. I'm not totally `out there', Thor, and I knew this all along. I think we differ in our personal truths and the standards by which we measure our success as far as what constitutes being a good person. That is why I finally stated (above) something that has always bothered me…and yet I had previously refrained from speaking my mind on just to avoid twisting anyone's shorts in a knot. But it is time now. Perhaps now, you can better understand where I am coming from. You don't need to agree, just understand. I fully understand your mission and don't fault you for that, please understand mine. Our takes are simply different. [Thor] serving on his list, [sandy] What is your point? That I should have only been given ONE ultimatum, and that was to play in either ONE playground or the other? The feud between Ron Grimes and Professor Choudhry is NOT my feud – it is between THEM and has nothing to do with me. So are we now guilty by association of disloyalty if we come from a culture where exploration on a variety of systems is acceptable – even encouraged? Was I so bad during my stay as Vice-President of the IIPA to have the audacity to go out and study in depth a system called Magi Astrology and attain a Level III Certification after writing a 400 page thesis and submitting the required analysis of 38 charts of their choosing in order to attain this degree of proficiency? Was I cheating on someone by doing this? Was I being disrespectful to the Professor? Where I come from, this is entirely my own personal decision, not a decision to be made by you or anyone else, and not meant to offend anyone else. I simply love astrology – all kinds. In the USA this type of action is not considered offensive. Among other things, I teach MaHaBote also, but I realistically have no demands that my students ONLY practice MaHaBote. I am simply trying one final time to get you to UNDERSTAND that perhaps your mindset is NOT my mindset. Does this make me a bad person? [Thor] especially after Ron Grimes began to virulently backstab . You then left his group and Ron Grimes banned you from his list. [sandy] Yes – this is true. I have nothing to hide here and feel no remorse for my actions. I spoke from my heart. I defended the Professor on Ron's list because in my mind there is a definite line between right and wrong, and Ron Grimes crossed that line. So I spoke out in defense of the Professor, got banned from Ron's list, and we ended any relationship we formerly had. Am I bad? Did I again do something unconscionable? [Thor] Your recent decision to re-establish ties with Ron Grimes is also an indication that this is the best outcome. Nothing is better, in my view, than a complete seperation of SA and Ron Grimes, including through a network of his friends. The less said about the man the better. [sandy] Sorry Thor – but you simply don't get to make that choice for me – I make my own decisions. This is MY business. But since you made it public, for the record, Ron Grimes wrote me a long and sincere letter of apology because he felt so bad after all that has happened on account of him – especially the dismantling of websites used by the SA students. I am not one to hold grudges, and what kind of woman would I be if I refused to accept his apology? I can answer that – not a woman I would be proud of. I believe in forgiveness – does that again make me a bad person and disloyal? I have been praying for Ron to find peace, and his sincere gesture and apology was a sign. Should I have slammed the door in his face? No Thor. We all have both good and bad in us, and people see what they see. I am forgiving because I believe in my mindset that we should forgive one another on this planet – not hold grudges - or die without resolving our differences. And if a man humbles himself to sincerely apologize, my nature is to accept because I believe that is the right way to live. About the network of his friends…Donna is also my friend, and I get to pick and choose my friends. My friendships are not based on any associations these people have with others. Her and I have a funny and great relationship, and we don't always see eye to eye, but that matters very little because we respect each other's opinion, we laugh a lot, and we can get a lot accomplished astrologically when we work as a team. [Thor] I use the opportunity to thank you for all your contributions to the SA community. I wish you all the best. [sandy] And I also wish you and the Systems' Approach lists all the best. This reply was not meant to set off more controversy – it was simply meant to state exactly where I am coming from once and for all. I prefer peace on all counts, and those of you who know me – know that. I hope this explains a lot for you Thor, and for others who may have been unclear. Thanks. Respectfully, Sandy ---------= -- "wenvasuk" <wenvas@j...> Mon May 3, 2004 9:00 pm Re: [satva] Who has the greater responsibility? Manjunatha-- I, along with the other 900 members of this list, have been watching this drama unfold with horror and disbelief. As an observer who has no connection with either Mr. Grimes or Prof. Choudhry, I can only form an opinion from what has transpired here over the last few days, and, apart from the venom that I myself have been subjected to from time to time, I have never before witnessed such vilification as has been hurled at Mr. Grimes...those guilty of this are the most vile of all. You, who spits such poison against another human-being, dare to speak of the (desired) qualities of Astrologers?? So much is made of the need for students to honour their Guru...what a maligned term that is today. But what of the qualities of the teacher? The greatest attributes of a Guru are compassion and humility; Sadly I've seen none of that here. What I have seen is a teacher threatening others with legal action for breach of copyright; I've seen a teacher who shows no true remorse for the effect this (legal) threat has had on other people...dismantling of educational websites and so forth, it's terrible! No doubt in my mind that the transits of MA/SA and RA/SU are showing their terrible effect and this is my reason for writing. As an astrologer I would like to see how these transits are affecting both parties (Mr. Grimes and Prof. Choudhry), therefore if anyone could give the birth details of both I would be grateful. You can send it to me privately if you wish. Best Wishes, Wendy ---------= -- Carol M <camckay@p...> Mon May 3, 2004 7:55 pm Re: [satva] Re: Latest on SA and Resignation Sandy, you will be missed. I wish you the best in all that you do. Best wishes, Carol ---------= -- "Sandy Crowther" <sandy@t...> Mon May 3, 2004 6:44 pm RE: [satva] Re: Latest on SA and Resignation Dear Thor and Group, I do not think that Alicia was over-reacting, please don't imply that she was because that is bordering on condescension. I think she (and other list members) have stated their opinions on multiple matters with respect to all that has transpired over the past several days, and they do have a right to do that - at least I hope that 'freedom of speech' is still permissible when expressing concerns in a polite manner on this list. There are many smoking guns going off at one time here at Satva - but everything happens for a reason, and nothing lasts forever. With that thought in mind, as much as I love Systems' Approach, I believe the time has come for me to respectfully resign my position as Vice President of the IIPA. I'm a Pisces and can function well only with freedom of expression, and without any unnecessary restrictions placed on my field of gravity. I feel like the playing field has been changing drastically around here, and I may have just been too busy to notice. The Professor is a generous man, but I blindly thought I was helping him out with my former site, Jupiter's Web, when in reality I was simply encroaching on the Professor's site of SA authority. It would have saved me a lot of hard work if I had known this a few years ago, and known that the Professor preferred one site only for his Systems' Approach material and that site was his own, but perhaps he was just too kind to say so. With all due respect, and I do consider myself to be a very respectful person - I am far from being robotic by nature - and I feel I have been slapped around a bit too much lately. So after much reflection today on all that has transpired over the past several days, including the way things were handled with respect to requests for handling my own site, the former Jupiter's Web, I respectfully submit my resignation as Vice-President of the IIPA. I do this with no ill intent - just my own conviction of heart and spirit that it is time to go. Sometimes we need to shuffle things around a little bit to get things moving again, and I hope that this will now happen here at Satva, and that the movement will again flow in a positive direction. I have greatly enjoyed my interactions with all of you over the years since the inception of this list, and I thank you all for everything, but its now time to go. I sincerely wish you all the best and God Bless. All the Best, Sandy Crowther P.S. About Jupiter's Web - thank you all for all your support and private emails to me - they were lovely to read. And for those of you who questioned what my plans were, since I have already paid for my site and the name "Jupiter's Web" for a few years in advance, I may keep some material and upload other astrological material I am certified in (other than Systems' Approach) such as Mahabote, Magi Astrology, etc.but I am honestly undecided at this point. I just need you all to know that if you visit a site by the name of "Jupiters Web" at a future date, it will not any longer carry any Systems' Approach content. Thanks. ---------= -- Alicia Snow <a.m.snow@s...> Mon May 3, 2004 3:47 pm Re: [satva] Re: Latest on SA List, I am quite saddened to see such relevant and useful information being flushed down the proverbial toilet. I used Sandy's site frequently, nearly weekly. It was organized in a concise, and easy to navigate manner. I always thought astrological knowledge was for all to share and enjoy. Jyotish astrology has been practiced for thousands of years..and now, in 2004, we must put a copyright on it? I don't quite understand. I am disheartened that such useful information is now gone. I apologize, but if these types of things are occurring, I will not be patronizing any site relevant to SA. This is ridiculous. Alicia snow ---------= -- Therese Hamilton <eastwest@s...> Mon May 3, 2004 11:17 am Re: [satva] Jupiter's Web deletion Gisela, I say AMEN to your post. I didn't know Ron, but to give the impression that the fualt is all on one side and to pretend that God's blessings are with the 'right' side is the essence of hypocricy. When a structure is held too tight, it becomes brittle and ultimately shatters. Members on this list are ignoring the elephant in the room and continuing to play the game of "Let's pretend." There is a HUGE message there with the deletion of web sites that the owners have put their life blood into. Therese ---------= -- wasistas@a... Mon May 3, 2004 10:51 am Re: [satva] Re: Jupiter's Web deletion I did not often post on satva. All what I want to say now is that I feel disgusted by the way that Donna's and Sandy's work is treated. An honorable man should not punish persons who helped to make his work public. He should not pretend not to know the content of a notebook so much estimatend in times before. Treasures are lost with Sandy's website. Whatever Ron Grimes may have said and done, this kind of reactions makes me doubt if he may not be right. Just my humble opinion Gisela ---------= -- "anupama888" <anupama888@h...> Mon May 3, 2004 8:19 am [satva] Congratulations and hats off to Professor! Dear Professor and List, What a remarkable list and what a venerated lot of Astrologers on this list! Hard to believe such high quality of Astrologers actually having sleepless nights cause of a single man, Ron Grimes – one without titles, without any books to his credit, one without the backing of any mighty institution – all of which the patrons of this list carry around in great pride. You know why? Simply because he was so damn true and you knew it when he left IIPA as its President, that this man cannot be bought. No hanky-panky, no manipulation, no herd following, no behind-the-back tactics - just plain facts and predictions – that's Ron Grimes for you! Just in case you didn't know! I am amazed at such a massive list and institution just crumbling right in front of our eyes cause of the anxiety that everyone had. Well, Ron Grimes himself has contributed nothing towards this disintegration, save for sticking to his principles and not succumbing to the herd mentality of putting up pedestals for all and sundry. Yeah, we all know in our shivering-trembling hearts what a spot-on Astrologer he has proved himself to be time and again. There is no denying this simple fact, so threatening to the survival of our frail and ailing SA. Yet the most compelling attribute about him is that he is such a genuine guy – generous, non-manipulative, sincere, understanding, committed, dedicated and above all, someone with integrity. Oh, let me explain here: I-N-T-E-G-R-I-T-Y means candor, honesty, one that makes a single man stick to truth despite a ton of people against him. Just goes to show that TRUTH, in this case Ron Grimes, can stand alone against all the screams from falsehood. Never before have I felt the statement "Truth shall prevail" make more sense as it does to me this day! Oh, why the "Congratulations" in the subject line, is it? Well, it's really commendable what Professor has accomplished! Very few people can actually dismantle their own creation so absurdly, swiftly and with such naivety. That which all at IIPA and SATVA feared most – SA's disappearance into oblivion – Professor single handedly has set to achieve! What more can we ask for?! Such generosity. I am touched. Well, I doubt my (or the rest of the planet's) best wishes can be of any help to you anymore Professor; anyway, all the very best. Please try not to splash dirt on others, cause looks like nature is splashing it back at you with twice the intensity! I feel sorry for you Sire. Take care and safe landing, Professor. I have your best interest in heart, trust me. By the way, how could you have missed Mercury's retrogression while splashing dirt, Professor??!!! Regards. Annu ---------= -- "SIHA" <siha@v...> Mon May 3, 2004 6:40 am Re: [satva] The transits Hello Mr. Karan, Mr. Ron Grimes also had been a student like you and many others. All students make some methodology to apply the learning of the concepts learned. Some people who become more ambitious or jealous of others success try to show it off. Those who believe in divine science practice divine conduct. If you categorise Functional nature of planets in any other way than SA, you reach no where. That is the fundamental principle of SA. It is my belief that nothing better than this can ever come up in this world. Best wishes, www.YourNetAstrologer.com A-105, South City II, Gurgaon 122101 (India) Phones: 91 124 - 2219240 Mobile 98110 16333 ---------= -- "karn108" <karn108> Mon May 3, 2004 5:29 am [satva] The transits Dear List members, It is really sad to lose wonderful resources like Jupitersweb.com and Satvatoolkit. And we are on the verge of losing this list as well. Just wanted to remind Prof Choudhry's point that transits afflictions override natal chart afflictions. It seems to be really very strong transits at this time and we all (students and teachers) should see this point and try to avoid from bashingful posts as it is not going to help in any ways. No one on this earth is perfect so lets forget everything and instead of letting things go vain, may be we should work together in harmony to save whatever is possible Just to divert attention, if you will, we should try finding out in charts of Prof Choudhry and Mr. Grimes, why this happened whatever has happened from astrological point of view only and without blaming anyone. I really have not intended to offend anyone, but if my posting is offencive for you please ignore this. Warm regards Karan ---------= -- "Manjari Dasi" <manjari_dd@h...> Mon May 3, 2004 1:44 am Re: [satva] ATTN Mr RON Dear Samarth, Namaste! The notion of the functional nature of the planets is not a new concept but imbedded in Vedic astrology. Similarly is the MEP. In SA it may be called MEP but it has long been recognized that the degree in Rasi corresponding to the degree in the Lagna is vital. In the Vedic equal house system it is the mid-point of the house. If a malefic crosses the 64 navamsa from Lagna or Moon what does it mean? He has crossed the MEP of the 8th house.This is known from Nadi literature and clasical texts. The Professor did not create SA from nothing, all the materials were already there in classical Vedic astrology. SA is a reorganization of that material. Manjunatha ---------= -- Therese Hamilton <eastwest@s...> Sun May 2, 2004 12:04 pm Re: [satva] ATTN Mr RON Samarth, I've been following the messages on this site for a short time, but haven't posted because I haven't used the SA system to any great extent in my astrological work. But I did want to make one comment on the "Most effective point." Mr. Choudhry coined the phrase MEP, however he didn't invent the equal house cusps, which is what the MEPs are. I've been writing articles about the effectiveness of equal house cusps since the 1970s, and have based a great deal of research on these points. One might say that Mr. Choudhry 'owns' **MEP,** but anyone has the right to demonstrate the importance of equal house cusps without referring to SA. Also, many astrolgers have used restricted orbs, which are part of SA. This is just one example of the difficulty in trying to copyright mathematical features of the horoscope. I have personally also used other features of SA, which I discovered myself over 30 years time. I just didn't label them part of a system called SA. (From my point of view, the whole idea of copyright is silly, but I'm not going to join in that discussion. The books are there. Anyone can see that a Mr. V.K. Choudhry is the original author.) Samarth, please check into your spelling of the good Professor's name. Sincerely, Therese ---------= -- sam s [samarth_04@h...] Sunday, May 02, 2004 1:35 AM [satva] ATTN Mr RON Attn Mr RON, The concept of Most effective point, functional nature of planets....etc were researched by Prof VK Choudary So he holds the Copyrights. Thanks, samarth ---------= -- "SIHA" <siha@v...> Sun May 2, 2004 9:32 am Re: [satva] Re: SA material Hello Ms Donna, I believe you when you say that it contains notes from me and your friend then it is a clear cut confusion on a website which is named as SA material website. Nothing better I expected from you. Best wishes, ---------= -- "Donna" <DQuinn12@o...> Sun May 2, 2004 9:49 pm Re: [satva] SA material Dear Professor - > I never visit SA notebook and don't know what it contains. Then HOW can you make a blanket statement like this???? > "I think it would be better and I would prefer that the > confusing > SA note book is removed, immediately." The SATVA Notebook has been on my site since its inception years ago and you knew of it existence, because you often made comments on the various notes that were written in it. David Hawthorne, who was a stickler with keeping to the rules of your system, also loved this notebook and often made comments about how convenient it was to read at night, looking forward to the next page to come out. So every one of these notes were accurate according to your system at that time. Now all of a sudden they AREN'T accurate because maybe Ron Grimes' thoughts might be in them? And to top it off, you haven't even read thru them. You just assume that it HAS to be incorrect now?? Shame on you Professor. I thought you were a better man than that. In any case, Sandy can do what she wants with them. It will be your loss, not mine. Donna Quinn ---------= -- "SIHA" <siha@v...> Sun May 2, 2004 9:11 am Re: [satva] Re: SA material Hello Ms Donna Quinn, Please stop all this. Any effort to defame and encroach upon my rights has to be seen by me. Whatever, your friend is capable of doing let him do at his own without creating confusion for SA and without trying to defame and misrepresent SA. SA was developed and known before your friend approached me for learning. It has continously been updated by me. I do not agree with you and I do not require any help from a person like him. I never asked him or you or anybody else to do any favour for me for propagating SA. Best wishes, ---------= -- "SIHA" <siha@v...> Sun May 2, 2004 8:59 am Re: [satva] Re: SA material Dear Ms Donna, Ms Crowther and list members, I never visit SA notebook and don't know what it contains. All SA principles are contained in SA books and clarifications are offered on the list. List members can refer to my website where all the books are placed for free download. Ms Donna can make a choice to keep either SA material or that of Mr. Ron Grimes. I never new about this confusion. It is not right and I don't accept this. I think it would be better and I would prefer that the confusing SA note book is removed, immediately. Best wishes, ---------= -- "Donna" <DQuinn12@o...> Sun May 2, 2004 9:29 pm Re: [satva] SA material Dear Professor - > I respect your opinion. But, I know him through his > correspondence > and his insulting language used on SATVA that he would never > listen to > reason. I read only a few sentences which were giving wrong > information and > was in the spirit of trying to defame me. SA is complete > system and it is > not only for beginners as stated by him. The ironic part is that in the old days, with Ron as part of the team, SA was better and easier to learn than ever. You two were magic together until the day came when there was just no more room at the top of the mountain for the both of you. So Ron HAD to move on, because it's his very nature to want to improve, revise, remold, make better. He's a programmer by profession and this is what programmers do. And he felt frustration by the mere fact that he couldn't do that any longer if he remained here. And so his decision to move on. Those were the days, huh Professor? But that was then and now is now. Has everything that he's contributed with your blessings in the years gone by, now mean absolutely nothing because of your personal misunderstandings with each other? If so, what is true and what isn't true anymore? Are we to believe that as long as the two of you were friends then any contributions he made to the system were just fine, but now that you are no longer friends, then everything he's contributed should now be eliminated? When is enough going to be enough? Donna ---------= -- "SIHA" <siha@v...> Sun May 2, 2004 6:18 am Re: [satva] Re: SA material Hello Ms Donna, I respect your opinion. But, I know him through his correspondence and his insulting language used on SATVA that he would never listen to reason. I read only a few sentences which were giving wrong information and was in the spirit of trying to defame me. SA is complete system and it is not only for beginners as stated by him. Best wishes, ---------= -- "franco_well" <francowell@n...> Sun May 2, 2004 5:59 am Re: [satva] On Ron's behalf DONNA Well said. Thank you. Namaste....Franco ---------= -- Donna Quinn <DQuinn12@o...> Sun May 2, 2004 4:34 am RE: [satva] On Ron's behalf Dear Group - Up until this time, I have chosen to remain silent because I didn't want to get caught up between the personal battles of these two very powerful men. They both have enormous influence on the many followers of these lists. But just this one time, I'm going to go with my heart as I DO feel that a few things need to be said in Ron's defense since I care about him deeply as a friend. A few days ago, the Professor wrote to me and requested that I remove my website from Ron's due to the fact that it was on the sageasita.com site. Also, that the Professor was thinking of pursuing a lawsuit against him for infringing against his copyrights. At this point in time, there was NOTHING on either my site OR Ron's that infringed against anyone's "copyrights". If anything, Ron had felt it was only right to disassociate himself from the SA system months previously and renamed his "system" if you will, "ASTROPHECY, Essential Astrology" all with the intentions of going off in another direction and starting something new . . . until this recent request by the Professor, which made Ron wonder what did he do now? Me, as well.. . . And I, out of concern that somehow my website would be the trigger to cause the Professor to pursue a lawsuit against Ron, immediately took it off his site. That was my ONLY reason. There was no sense of guilt that I nor Ron had done anything here to be guilty of. In fact my website had previously been in existence for several years without incident, so I could only assume that whatever was bothering the Professor HAD to be the fact that I had chosen to even associate myself with Ron due to his own personal battles with him in the past and therefore I must be as "guilty" as Ron was due to my mere association with him? I have no idea. . . In any case, I did my best to make amends to rectify the situation by removing my site and apologized to the Professor for offending him. I have been with Ron since the inception of this list when he first started it years ago. It had a different feeling back then. We were all pioneers starting out back at that time, on a brand new venture together and discovering new and wonderful things constantly as we learned this system. It was exciting then, perhaps because there were so few of us as compared to now and because we were so inspired with the Professor's teachings, we all wanted to contribute in our own ways. I came up with SATVA Toolkit Corner, Sandy came up with her JUPITER'S WEB and Ron had already come up with his methodologies for improving SA's predictive accuracy even more. He put up a website called the SEER'S CAVE back then which was the ONLY website on the System's Approach at that time until other followed up with their own websites. Most importantly, though, he came up with the rectified Grimes' USA Chart, which the Professor duely gives him credit for. Doesn't this count for anything now? In spite of all of this, it's Ron's passion in whatever he throws himself into that makes him so different from all of us and makes him truly one of a kind, for better or worse, depending on how you like him. . . or not. It makes it a little uncomfortable however for other people sometimes as they miscontrue it as an out of control ego. Call it what you will. It is also this passion in him that makes him a rebel among astrologers and therefore what draws the most criticism to himself. He will always beat to the sound of his own drummer however, which unfortunately had to be the reason he left SATVA to begin with. But there is no crime for having a passion and revising a system to make it even better and more predictively intuitive. His intentions were always pure in this regard. He never tried to claim anything as his own and he always gave credit where credit was due. Yes, he has and always WILL have definite and very original opinions about things which don't always agree with the majority of the flow, but that's what makes him Ron. That's what makes him different. And ofcourse there will always be the few of you out there who just hate his guts and always will because he stands up and speaks his mind, no matter what. To his discredit, he is NOT the most tactful of persons when it comes to the written word, as he can be cruelly blunt and to the point at times, which has led to many misunderstandings between him and others thru the years, but no one can dispute the fact that he is a brilliant astrologer in his own right and when he puts those talents and words to good use, he knows how to teach and communicate the most difficult of subjects into something so simple and easy to understand that it's like magic. Just for the record, however, I want you all to know that I love this man dearly, no matter what has happened during these past few days, so forgive me for being a little overprotective here. Since all that has transpired, my site has now been dismantled, where I turned over the most important parts to Sandy so that it doesn't all go for nothing; Ron has taken his sageasita.com site off the Internet out of sheer frustration I'm sure, not to mention the Astrophecy list as well, until a more proper time period in the future opens up when the aspects are a little more kind to him and his ideas. And of course the final ending. . . although the Professor has not asked Ron to remove his name from his rectified chart and told Sandy that it was alright to keep it there with its proper title, Ron has requested that Sandy remove it anyway so as not to have his name mentioned anywhere on any SA site from now on. This sort of reminds me of when you pull that tiny little thread on a sweater and you wind up unraveling the whole thing for nothing. . . .I hope everyone is satisfied now and the Professor is happy with this final outcome. It's such a waste. . . Donna Quinn - "Ron Grimes" <rongrimes@c...> <siha@v...> Cc: <astrophecy>; <samva>; <satva> Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:57 PM RE: [astrophecy] FW: SA > Mr. Choudhry, > > Let's get a few things straight. > > First, please do not demean yourself by using these juvenile threats of > "legal action". You cannot copyright the SA. Referring to > <http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html> > http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html > > "What does copyright protect? > Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works > of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, > such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and > architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or > methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are > expressed." > > Notice that you cannot copyright a system. > > > Secondly, having full knowledge of my legal rights to use your system, > and anyone else's, and revise it however I wish, I had already declared > on my list (see my post > <astrophecy/message/3239> > astrophecy/message/3239 ), dated January > 15th 2004, in which I state: > > "Yes, I agree with those of you who have said I need to just move on, > which is what I'm doing from this point forward. So, here's the new > paradigm (sorry for the worn-out buzzword): > > * My writings (both here and on my website) will be grouped under > Astrophecy. > > * Don't ask me about SA principles any longer. Refer those to > SATVA for your "Yes, Please" answers. > > * I won't be contrasting my teachings against others any longer. > This includes SA, Vedic Astrology, Iyer, or whatever system. I'll just > tell you how I do it. So, don't ask me what text justifies me doing it > such-and-such a way." > > > So, as you can see, your concerns were addressed well before your > current territorial marking campaign. > > Finally, let me give you some unsolicited advice. You are seeking > tight-fisted control over something of which you are not the author. If > you have any humility whatsoever within you, you will recognize the > source of all jyotish wisdom comes from a higher place, and you and I > are merely channels through which this can flow. To try and gain name, > fame, wealth, or power as the resultant remuneration for a gift that you > were privileged to bestow on the world is the greatest of errors. At one > point, you must have embodied this humility because the SA was revealed > through you. It was at that time, I was pleased to be associated with > you. > > Unfortunately, you have sought to now claim authorship, while locking > out any good ideas offered up by others who have demonstrated greater > predictive skills than yourself. While you want everyone to recognize > the SA is yours, you and your followers use my USA chart without giving > credit, and indeed seeking to usurp credit for it. So, while seeking to > always get credit for your contributions to the astrological world, you > fail to practice what you preach and give others their due, belittling > people like Raman, Rao, Subhakaran, Dr. Charak, and myself as you refer > to us in terms such as "stupid", "demonic", etc. (Yes, I still have > those original e-mails from you where you label such people in such > terms.) > > From the beginning of our association, I have only sought to advance the > predictive science without self-gain. I paid you $600 to learn the SA > from you, and then turned around and promoted your system throughout the > world, at my time and expense, by the creation of the SATVA list, > endless posts to explain to the western mind what you were trying to > convey because many could not grasp because the English in your books is > lacking. I created a methodology that everyone who tried found > extraordinarily useful, and thus tried to give people a better handle on > the SA to produce replicable results. I published an article explaining > my USA Chart from an SA perspective, giving credit that I used the SA as > part of my testing process - even though it was not used to originally > rectify the chart. I produced numerous correct predictions using the SA > against this USA Chart, in an attempt to draw people's attention to the > usefulness of your system. To this date, I still recommend on my list > that people learn your system. > > Still, in spite of all this, you begrudged me a few modifcations so that > the system is more usable by others, and so others could gain the > predictive accuracy I have achieved - an accomplishment by the way that > cannot be achieved with strict SA, as evidenced by your post > <SAMVA/message/55> > SAMVA/message/55 > > > Yes, in spite of all this, you went behind my back and asked the > moderators of the list I created (SATVA) to ask me to keep my ideas to > myself because you were so fearful of others thinking that maybe you > weren't the end-all and be-all of astrology. It is sad that you have > fallen so far from the grace of the jyotish gods to where you now > jealously cling to a system you cannot forever control and must grow > beyond your tight grasp, and you have become a merchant of worthless > pieces of metal that can't cost more than $2 to make, but sell them to > the trusting souls around the world for $150 and $300 so you can buy > your lands and properties. > > Is this really how you wanted your legacy to be? I thank you for the > "best wishes" you expressed to me, but I cannot reciprocate those > feelings because your practices now embody the worst of what an > astrologer can be and I do not wish that to prosper. > > This will be my one and only post to you and your doting followers who > cannot see behind the mask of benevolence you sport for them. > > Ron Grimes > > P.S. to be forwarded to SATVA and SAMVA lists. > > > > > > SIHA [ <siha@v...> siha@v...] > > Wednesday, April 28, 2004 5:36 AM > > webmaster@s... > > SA > > > > Dear Mr. Ron Grimes, > > > > After learning SA from me you are talking of > > refinements of SA. SA is copyright with me and Mr. K > > Rajesh Chaudhary and the use of the name and goodwill > > of SA is clearly not permissible by us for any refinements > > and additional changes, etc. to SA by other than us. > > > > If you want to give your own methodology, you are welcome > > to do so on your own work without calling it additions or > > refinements to SA. > > > > While, I wish you all success in your ventures, just to let > > you know I am contemplating legal action in this regard to > > protect my/our interests under the copyright. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Propounder of Systems' Approach to Vedic Astrology > ---------= -- "SIHA" <siha@v...> Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:16 am [satva] REFINEMENTS ON SA Hello dear list members, Some of my old students including Mr. Ron Grimes after learning SA talk of refinements of SA. SA is copyright with me and Mr. K Rajesh Chaudhary and the use of the name and goodwill of SA is clearly not permissible by us for any refinements and additional changes, etc. to SA. Anybody who wants to give a new system he/she is welcome to do so on his/her own work. Mr. Ron Grimes should leave SA aside and give his system to the world. I am contemplating legal action in this regard and if any of the list members can help me on this, the help is welcome. All those website which carry SA material should either remove the name of Mr. Ron Grimes from their websites or remove all SA material from their websites immediately. Best wishes, ---------= -- "srikanth_aiyer" <srikanth_aiyer Sunday, May 30, 2004 9:12 PM [satva] Is BRIBERY a NOBLE Act according to SA? Is BRIBERY a NOBLE Act according to SA? Dear Prof and List, Let me start by saying, I was bewildered, and wondered momentarily in an utter state of distrust after coming in contact with an outlandish answer in your post 32904 "YES, THERE ARE. THESE WERE ADVISED FOR A FORMER PM AND HE COULD COMPLETE HIS FULL TERM IN SPITE OF A MINIORITY GOVT AND HIS INVOLVEMENT IN A BRIBERY CASE". I couldn't believe what I was reading when you said that "you indeed aided and abetted the ex-PM of India in BRIBERY and from facing JUSTICE". As I have understood, Bribery is a corrupt practice of inducing a person to act contrary to accepted or moral behavior, by promising or giving a reward or inducement, often a financial one. I am not sure how you, your disciples and SA define this decadent act called Bribery. Prof , shame on you for saying you did what you did and that too to say it proudly. For heaven sake, there isn't anything to be proud of in helping a criminal. Or do you and your SATVA & SAMVA members feel otherwise? Mind you, you actually did such a heinous act and I am indeed appalled at your attitude. Even to think of it, it is despicable for a world renowned man like yourself claiming to practice perhaps the most noblest of science indulging in assisting a criminal to escape the law and face justice via your so-called "SPIRITUAL MOMENTOS"! But do you know what really took me "off guard"? Do you really want know, Prof ? It was your subsequent reply to Mr. Steve. You indeed had the audacity to outline the prerequisite or qualifications for the Kavach Engraver to Mr. Steve in your post 32929 as "THE KAVACH ENGRAVER/PROVIDER SHOULD LEAD DIVINE WAY OF LIFE. HE/SHE SHOULD AVOID INDULGENCE IN GREED, LUST, ANGER, VANITY AND PRACTICE MEDITATION, GENEROSITY, KINDNESS, PATIENCE, SINCERITY AND HONESTY." Again in your post 32953, you have also reiterated by saying that indeed the conduct of the Kavach Makers is paramount to the efficacy of these metal pieces. Moreover, you committed yourself further into the act of aid and abetting the scandalous activity of bribery by personally supervising the making of these metal miracles! Indeed the law of any land would view you just as it would of the criminals who indulged in the act bribery, no two ways about it, Prof ! Actually to think of it, you really crack me up, Prof V K Choudhry! Now you tell me, how on earth an individual (Kavach Engraver) practicing such discipline, austerities, and piousness as outlined by you, could ever help a CRIMINAL (it does not matter if s/he is the PM of India or the President of US of A) whose rightful place would be the CENTRAL JAIL in New Delhi? How? You surely seem to possess a skewed sense of logic and religiosity, Prof ! This you really do! Go ahead and try convincing me otherwise. Also, please teach your "enlightened" members how to reconcile both these statements of yours. Could you, Prof V K Choudhry? The state of having COURAGE and INTEGRITY is not to be found in your moral fabric. Sadly, not at all! Every man who has both these qualities owns up or concedes when they fail, they really do! But you go on saying this "If you think my prediction is miles away, I have no problem". It looks like you have a serious problem here. Didn't it occur to you or to your "enlightened" members that I was stating a FACT and NOT sharing my thoughts with you? Didn't it? Prof you claimed that you predicted Mrs. Sonia Gandhi would become the PM of India once and the truth is she DID NOT this time around. Now tell me, what my thinking got to do with this glaring FACT? Can you? Anyway, kindly check with your students who are in the legal profession, "what constitutes a criminal offence and how does the act of aid and abetting fares in the equation". This you must! Perhaps, they would be able to advise you judiciously, if they have not yet lost their sense of legality. Prof , you are a very highly acclaimed and world renowned man in the field of astrology. Now, could you please tell us all, what is your real motivation? What is it? To make money? To SAVE CRIMINALS who are in high office? To Redefine Religiosity? To introduce a set of New Human Values for the 21st century? Or to teach the noble science of astrology? Now what? Prof , are you aware of what you are saying, to begin with? Are you? Being aware is the first step towards being Self Conscious; do you know this Prof V K Choudhry? Whom do you think you are kidding, if not yourself? Let me tell you this Prof , if the statement in your reply (post 32904) is permissible in the courts of law, you could indeed end up in jail. Ignorance of the law is no defense in any court of law, mind you. For God sake, at least be mindful of the legal consequence of what you say even if doesn't make any moral sense, will you? My request to you, please have a real hard look at your thought process and kindly revisit the thing called CONSCIENCE. This is only for those who have one! May God bless you and I hope that the Almighty enables you to clear up the "cob webs" that has badly cloaked your SIGHT! I indeed wish you luck in this regard! Awaiting your revolutionary discourse on New Spirituality aka BRIBERISM! Regards. Srikanth Aiyer PS. FYKI Prof , BRIBERY, is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE in the civilized world and so it has been defined in every country that has a flag to its name. Please tell me if it is otherwise in India, okay? Prof , I have appended below the legal definition of the act called BRIBERY according to the Criminal Law, for your kind attention. The aid and abetting part, kindly check with your lawyer friends, okay? BRIBERY – Criminal Law. 1) The receiving or offering any undue reward by or to any person whomsoever, whose ordinary profession or business relates to the administration of public justice, in order to influence his behaviour in office, and to incline him to act contrary to his duty and the known rules of honesty and integrity. 3 Inst. 149; 1 Hawk. P. C. 67, s. 2 4 Bl. Com.139; 1 Russ. Cr.156. 2) The term bribery extends now further, and includes the offence of giving a bribe to many other officers. The offence of the giver and of the receiver of the bribe has the same name. For the sake of distinction, that of the former, viz: the briber, might be properly denominated active. Bribery; while that of the latter, viz: the person bribed, might be called passive bribery. 3) Bribery at elections for members of parliament, has always been a crime at common law, and punishable by indictment or information. It still remains so in England notwithstanding the stat. 24 Geo. H. c. 14 3 Burr. 1340, 1589. To constitute the offence, it is not necessary that the person bribed should, in fact, vote as solicited to do 3 Burr. 1236; or even that he should have a right to vote at all both are entirely immaterial. 3 Bur. 1590-1. 4) An attempt to bribe, though unsuccessful, has been holden to be criminal, and the offender may be indicted. 2 Dall. 384; 4 Burr. 2500 3 Inst. 147; 2 Campb. R. 229; 2 Wash. 88; 1 Virg. Cas. 138; 2 Virg. Cas. 460. Post message: satva Subscribe: satva- Un: satva ---------= - satva/ b.. satva c.. Terms of Service= .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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