Guest guest Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 [First of all, my sincere apologies to Manoshi for using her earlier message as a sounding board for venting my frustration!] Astrology is one frustrating *business*, particularly if one is sincere about it and also trying to live in a very pragmatic world like business, engineering, accounting, managing people, healing people, doing scientific research or deployed in a war-zone (even more so as a peace-keeping warrior as opposed to being a shell-happy killer sublimated to serve his country!). There is much hype and insincerity that exists in astrology and jyotish has more than its fair share of that as we all know and maybe have personally experienced! Time and again, we are reminded of reality, reality that exists out there and is perceived by most, as Gauruv's pointed questions remind us on this forum, and Mike/Mukund's experience with practicing astrologers get shared with us from time to time, or Tanvir's very special sensitive personal experiences or Trivedi-jee's for that matter, remind us of there being more to the reality that we astrologers have experienced and continue to experience. And, many many more postings that appear, here, some appealing, others taken in despite obvious flaws in logic or purity of intent - inadvertantly posted as those may be. The collage of humanity, of human experience, and its breadth and spectral range mimicking so closely the physical reality brings home the message to me so strongly :-- AS ABOVE, SO BELOW! In astrology and particularly in Jyotish, there will never be down-pat answers, no magical book or table of look-up indicators that will tell the story fully or clearly or obviously or even simply, recent claims notwithstanding! It is very much like a marriage, folks. One cannot observe and really understand or experience it, from the outside. You have to be in it, you have to be consumed by it, and you have to really want to know it!! I shall now hold my peace, whether it makes sense to you or not! For the neophytes, particularly the intelligent, logical ones -- for thousands of years people have been trying to figure out the "human experience" -- MOSTLY sages and detached ones and the vocal ones whose writings or spoken words survived (a lot spoken by others was lost, I am certain). But there is another very important segment of society that has been *quietly* experiencing it, all THIS time! Do not ever (please) minimize their direct and personal experience over that allegedly recorded by the Sages! There is not much oxygen up there, anyway, on the Himalayas as scientists remind us! Bottom line: If you want to know about the species that lives in the muck and grime that surrounds us and our reality, the most unlikely place to study that would be from the top of any Mountain or hill- top! RR, "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> wrote: > Manoshi, > > Far be it for me to take on that lofty responsibility that you so > readily and kindly bestow upon me! When others many years older than > me have already touched on that topic, d-e-c-a-d-e-s ago! I have > written several times tight here about Rattan Lal, and his book > entitled, "Nadi System of Prediction (Stellar Theory) [the edition I > have dates back to 1=september 1983]. It is all there! I hope many > of you have actually looked for it, or tried to find it from the > modern comforts of your ergonomic computer chaise. > > RR > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > <khallopapa> wrote: > > You must actually intrude more so that we all can learn from your > > knowledge and experience. Well, I have a question too. Could you > > give your views about vargottam and its effects in practical charts > > (any example if you could give) and how much importance do YOU > give > > to vargottam concept? for debilitation vargottam should make it > > worse but say a planet is in enemy's sign and vargottam...what are > > its effect then or vargottam is only good for the planets placed > in > > favorable signs. > > > > --Manoshi > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > <rrgb@s...> > > wrote: > > > Manoshi, if I may introduce my two cents here, the vargottama > has > > > more to do with sattwik dreshkana (drekkana. dreshkona as some > > > contemporary jyotishis have spelled it) than navamsha with the > > same > > > numbered sign as in rashi! > > > > > > I will now hold my tongue! Sorry for intruding!! > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > As I understand, a planet in its vargottam state gets more > > > strength. > > > > So if a debilitated planet is again debilitated in navamsa > will > > > get > > > > strength as a debilitated planet...so not auspicious. Another > > > logic > > > > which can be given is, the a debilitated planet in rasi chart > > gets > > > > cancellation of debilitation if the planet is in exaltation > sign > > > in > > > > navamsa so naturally if it is in debilitation sign in navansa > > > > again ,will have worse effects. > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Nandkumar Chinai > > > > <nvchinai> wrote: > > > > > Moon is in Scorpio in both Rasi and Navamsa in this > particular > > > > case i.e it is debilated. So do I understand that it gives > > > strength > > > > to moon because of the Vargottam condition is satisfied, > inspite > > > of > > > > debility ? > > > > > Kindly clarify. > > > > > > > > > > -Nandkumar > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi Chatterjee <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > Vargottam planet is that planet which occupies the same > > zodiacal > > > > > sign in rashi as in navamsa chart (many people suggest... > same > > > > sign > > > > > as in rashi and any divisional chart). It increases the > > strength > > > > of > > > > > the planet and is generally said to give auspicious results. > > eg. > > > > if > > > > > sun is in Leo in natal rashi chart and in the navansa chart, > > it > > > is > > > > > said to be vargottam. Indira Gandhi had 4 vargottam planets. > > Now > > > > you > > > > > can cast your chart and find out yourself...:-) > > > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > , Nandkumar Chinai > > > > > <nvchinai> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Members: > > > > > > > > > > > > What is a Vargottam Planet ? What is the significance of a > > > > > Vargottam Planet ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there a planet which is Vargottam in this chart: > > > > > > > > > > > > 29th July 1974 > > > > > > > > > > > > 06:30 Am (IST) > > > > > > > > > > > > 73E37 > > > > > > 23N02 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Arent these discussion groups for learning too? Everyone is a student at one point of time and learns from experience (by solving practical charts ) and clearing doubts from the learned. 30-40 years back when there was no concept of these discussion groups and people did not know the word internet, may be , books and practical learning were the only ways to learn and know. The student would never ask a question in the class if he gets a "you know nothing" and "find out yourself, I will not help you" answer. Project method or the problem solving method is the best teaching method for sure where the student learns himself by solving a problem but in today's world there are some limitations especially in this field of astrology. The sincerity of query has to be judged before saying "no". That is how the knowledge flows from high to low and if the knowledgeable at the high point keeps the faucet blocked, the genuine seeker at the bottom ia also deprived. Astrology no doubt is sometimes beyond logic or scientific explanation but in my opinion to seek for the scientific explanation without being held in any superstition whatsoever is a very positive attitude. --Manoshi , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> wrote: > [First of all, my sincere apologies to Manoshi for using her earlier > message as a sounding board for venting my frustration!] > > > Astrology is one frustrating *business*, particularly if one is > sincere about it and also trying to live in a very pragmatic world > like business, engineering, accounting, managing people, healing > people, doing scientific research or deployed in a war-zone (even > more so as a peace-keeping warrior as opposed to being a shell- happy > killer sublimated to serve his country!). > > There is much hype and insincerity that exists in astrology and > jyotish has more than its fair share of that as we all know and > maybe have personally experienced! > > Time and again, we are reminded of reality, reality that exists out > there and is perceived by most, as Gauruv's pointed questions remind > us on this forum, and Mike/Mukund's experience with practicing > astrologers get shared with us from time to time, or Tanvir's very > special sensitive personal experiences or Trivedi-jee's for that > matter, remind us of there being more to the reality that we > astrologers have experienced and continue to experience. And, many > many more postings that appear, here, some appealing, others taken > in despite obvious flaws in logic or purity of intent - > inadvertantly posted as those may be. > > The collage of humanity, of human experience, and its breadth and > spectral range mimicking so closely the physical reality brings home > the message to me so strongly :-- AS ABOVE, SO BELOW! In astrology > and particularly in Jyotish, there will never be down-pat answers, > no magical book or table of look-up indicators that will tell the > story fully or clearly or obviously or even simply, recent claims > notwithstanding! It is very much like a marriage, folks. One cannot > observe and really understand or experience it, from the outside. > You have to be in it, you have to be consumed by it, and you have to > really want to know it!! > > I shall now hold my peace, whether it makes sense to you or not! For > the neophytes, particularly the intelligent, logical ones -- for > thousands of years people have been trying to figure out the "human > experience" -- MOSTLY sages and detached ones and the vocal ones > whose writings or spoken words survived (a lot spoken by others was > lost, I am certain). But there is another very important segment of > society that has been *quietly* experiencing it, all THIS time! Do > not ever (please) minimize their direct and personal experience over > that allegedly recorded by the Sages! There is not much oxygen up > there, anyway, on the Himalayas as scientists remind us! > > Bottom line: If you want to know about the species that lives in the > muck and grime that surrounds us and our reality, the most unlikely > place to study that would be from the top of any Mountain or hill- > top! > > RR, "rohiniranjan" > <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > Manoshi, > > > > Far be it for me to take on that lofty responsibility that you so > > readily and kindly bestow upon me! When others many years older > than > > me have already touched on that topic, d-e-c-a-d-e-s ago! I have > > written several times tight here about Rattan Lal, and his book > > entitled, "Nadi System of Prediction (Stellar Theory) [the edition > I > > have dates back to 1=september 1983]. It is all there! I hope many > > of you have actually looked for it, or tried to find it from the > > modern comforts of your ergonomic computer chaise. > > > > RR > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > You must actually intrude more so that we all can learn from > your > > > knowledge and experience. Well, I have a question too. Could > you > > > give your views about vargottam and its effects in practical > charts > > > (any example if you could give) and how much importance do YOU > > give > > > to vargottam concept? for debilitation vargottam should make it > > > worse but say a planet is in enemy's sign and vargottam...what > are > > > its effect then or vargottam is only good for the planets placed > > in > > > favorable signs. > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > <rrgb@s...> > > > wrote: > > > > Manoshi, if I may introduce my two cents here, the vargottama > > has > > > > more to do with sattwik dreshkana (drekkana. dreshkona as some > > > > contemporary jyotishis have spelled it) than navamsha with the > > > same > > > > numbered sign as in rashi! > > > > > > > > I will now hold my tongue! Sorry for intruding!! > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > As I understand, a planet in its vargottam state gets more > > > > strength. > > > > > So if a debilitated planet is again debilitated in navamsa > > will > > > > get > > > > > strength as a debilitated planet...so not auspicious. > Another > > > > logic > > > > > which can be given is, the a debilitated planet in rasi > chart > > > gets > > > > > cancellation of debilitation if the planet is in exaltation > > sign > > > > in > > > > > navamsa so naturally if it is in debilitation sign in > navansa > > > > > again ,will have worse effects. > > > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Nandkumar Chinai > > > > > <nvchinai> wrote: > > > > > > Moon is in Scorpio in both Rasi and Navamsa in this > > particular > > > > > case i.e it is debilated. So do I understand that it gives > > > > strength > > > > > to moon because of the Vargottam condition is satisfied, > > inspite > > > > of > > > > > debility ? > > > > > > Kindly clarify. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Nandkumar > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi Chatterjee <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > Vargottam planet is that planet which occupies the same > > > zodiacal > > > > > > sign in rashi as in navamsa chart (many people suggest... > > same > > > > > sign > > > > > > as in rashi and any divisional chart). It increases the > > > strength > > > > > of > > > > > > the planet and is generally said to give auspicious > results. > > > eg. > > > > > if > > > > > > sun is in Leo in natal rashi chart and in the navansa > chart, > > > it > > > > is > > > > > > said to be vargottam. Indira Gandhi had 4 vargottam > planets. > > > Now > > > > > you > > > > > > can cast your chart and find out yourself...:-) > > > > > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > , Nandkumar Chinai > > > > > > <nvchinai> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Members: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is a Vargottam Planet ? What is the significance of > a > > > > > > Vargottam Planet ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there a planet which is Vargottam in this chart: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 29th July 1974 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 06:30 Am (IST) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 73E37 > > > > > > > 23N02 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > of > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Manoshi, The process of learning jyotish has not really changed all that much in the modern glittering age of internet which cave-dwellers like me never experienced when we were cutting our astrological teeth. All internet has done is made a large amount of information available as an alternative to books. Information on internet can have questions regarding quality (mostly non-peerreviewed) and often of questionable legal status (OCR zindabad!), copyrightwise. A student will still have to go through the fundamentals, whether using a printout or off the screen! And with all that dazzling theory inside the head, whether from books, teachers or Swami Internetanada, that theoretical information then would have to be applied to charts, often cold ones. If the end-result of learning astrology is to apply to horoscopes, why not incorporate that right from the beginning? Mind you, I realize that you are a professional educator and so probably know about education, learning etc. more than me. I responded originally (and subsequently) because your message was directed to me or addressed me. I have absolutely no problem with how, why, when or where any individual in this free society wishes to learn. RR , "Manoshi Chatterjee" <khallopapa> wrote: > Arent these discussion groups for learning too? Everyone is a > student at one point of time and learns from experience (by solving > practical charts ) and clearing doubts from the learned. 30-40 > years back when there was no concept of these discussion groups and > people did not know the word internet, may be , books and practical > learning were the only ways to learn and know. The student would > never ask a question in the class if he gets a "you know nothing" > and "find out yourself, I will not help you" answer. Project method > or the problem solving method is the best teaching method for sure > where the student learns himself by solving a problem but in today's > world there are some limitations especially in this field of > astrology. The sincerity of query has to be judged before > saying "no". That is how the knowledge flows from high to low and if > the knowledgeable at the high point keeps the faucet blocked, the > genuine seeker at the bottom ia also deprived. Astrology no doubt is > sometimes beyond logic or scientific explanation but in my opinion > to seek for the scientific explanation without being held in any > superstition whatsoever is a very positive attitude. > > --Manoshi > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > wrote: > > [First of all, my sincere apologies to Manoshi for using her > earlier > > message as a sounding board for venting my frustration!] > > > > > > Astrology is one frustrating *business*, particularly if one is > > sincere about it and also trying to live in a very pragmatic world > > like business, engineering, accounting, managing people, healing > > people, doing scientific research or deployed in a war-zone (even > > more so as a peace-keeping warrior as opposed to being a shell- > happy > > killer sublimated to serve his country!). > > > > There is much hype and insincerity that exists in astrology and > > jyotish has more than its fair share of that as we all know and > > maybe have personally experienced! > > > > Time and again, we are reminded of reality, reality that exists > out > > there and is perceived by most, as Gauruv's pointed questions > remind > > us on this forum, and Mike/Mukund's experience with practicing > > astrologers get shared with us from time to time, or Tanvir's very > > special sensitive personal experiences or Trivedi-jee's for that > > matter, remind us of there being more to the reality that we > > astrologers have experienced and continue to experience. And, many > > many more postings that appear, here, some appealing, others taken > > in despite obvious flaws in logic or purity of intent - > > inadvertantly posted as those may be. > > > > The collage of humanity, of human experience, and its breadth and > > spectral range mimicking so closely the physical reality brings > home > > the message to me so strongly :-- AS ABOVE, SO BELOW! In astrology > > and particularly in Jyotish, there will never be down-pat answers, > > no magical book or table of look-up indicators that will tell the > > story fully or clearly or obviously or even simply, recent claims > > notwithstanding! It is very much like a marriage, folks. One > cannot > > observe and really understand or experience it, from the outside. > > You have to be in it, you have to be consumed by it, and you have > to > > really want to know it!! > > > > I shall now hold my peace, whether it makes sense to you or not! > For > > the neophytes, particularly the intelligent, logical ones -- for > > thousands of years people have been trying to figure out > the "human > > experience" -- MOSTLY sages and detached ones and the vocal ones > > whose writings or spoken words survived (a lot spoken by others > was > > lost, I am certain). But there is another very important segment > of > > society that has been *quietly* experiencing it, all THIS time! Do > > not ever (please) minimize their direct and personal experience > over > > that allegedly recorded by the Sages! There is not much oxygen up > > there, anyway, on the Himalayas as scientists remind us! > > > > Bottom line: If you want to know about the species that lives in > the > > muck and grime that surrounds us and our reality, the most > unlikely > > place to study that would be from the top of any Mountain or hill- > > top! > > > > RR, "rohiniranjan" > > <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > > Manoshi, > > > > > > Far be it for me to take on that lofty responsibility that you > so > > > readily and kindly bestow upon me! When others many years older > > than > > > me have already touched on that topic, d-e-c-a-d-e-s ago! I > have > > > written several times tight here about Rattan Lal, and his book > > > entitled, "Nadi System of Prediction (Stellar Theory) [the > edition > > I > > > have dates back to 1=september 1983]. It is all there! I hope > many > > > of you have actually looked for it, or tried to find it from the > > > modern comforts of your ergonomic computer chaise. > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > You must actually intrude more so that we all can learn from > > your > > > > knowledge and experience. Well, I have a question too. Could > > you > > > > give your views about vargottam and its effects in practical > > charts > > > > (any example if you could give) and how much importance do YOU > > > give > > > > to vargottam concept? for debilitation vargottam should make > it > > > > worse but say a planet is in enemy's sign and vargottam...what > > are > > > > its effect then or vargottam is only good for the planets > placed > > > in > > > > favorable signs. > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Manoshi, if I may introduce my two cents here, the > vargottama > > > has > > > > > more to do with sattwik dreshkana (drekkana. dreshkona as > some > > > > > contemporary jyotishis have spelled it) than navamsha with > the > > > > same > > > > > numbered sign as in rashi! > > > > > > > > > > I will now hold my tongue! Sorry for intruding!! > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi > Chatterjee" > > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > As I understand, a planet in its vargottam state gets more > > > > > strength. > > > > > > So if a debilitated planet is again debilitated in navamsa > > > will > > > > > get > > > > > > strength as a debilitated planet...so not auspicious. > > Another > > > > > logic > > > > > > which can be given is, the a debilitated planet in rasi > > chart > > > > gets > > > > > > cancellation of debilitation if the planet is in > exaltation > > > sign > > > > > in > > > > > > navamsa so naturally if it is in debilitation sign in > > navansa > > > > > > again ,will have worse effects. > > > > > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Nandkumar Chinai > > > > > > <nvchinai> wrote: > > > > > > > Moon is in Scorpio in both Rasi and Navamsa in this > > > particular > > > > > > case i.e it is debilated. So do I understand that it > gives > > > > > strength > > > > > > to moon because of the Vargottam condition is satisfied, > > > inspite > > > > > of > > > > > > debility ? > > > > > > > Kindly clarify. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Nandkumar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi Chatterjee <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > Vargottam planet is that planet which occupies the same > > > > zodiacal > > > > > > > sign in rashi as in navamsa chart (many people > suggest... > > > same > > > > > > sign > > > > > > > as in rashi and any divisional chart). It increases the > > > > strength > > > > > > of > > > > > > > the planet and is generally said to give auspicious > > results. > > > > eg. > > > > > > if > > > > > > > sun is in Leo in natal rashi chart and in the navansa > > chart, > > > > it > > > > > is > > > > > > > said to be vargottam. Indira Gandhi had 4 vargottam > > planets. > > > > Now > > > > > > you > > > > > > > can cast your chart and find out yourself...:-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Nandkumar > Chinai > > > > > > > <nvchinai> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Members: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is a Vargottam Planet ? What is the significance > of > > a > > > > > > > Vargottam Planet ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there a planet which is Vargottam in this chart: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 29th July 1974 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 06:30 Am (IST) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 73E37 > > > > > > > > 23N02 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > > of > > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 "A student will still have to go through the fundamentals, whether > using a printout or off the screen! And with all that dazzling > theory inside the head, whether from books, teachers or Swami > Internetanada, that theoretical information then would have to be > applied to charts, often cold ones. If the end-result of learning > astrology is to apply to horoscopes, why not incorporate that right > from the beginning?" very true Kaku. But why a person who has knowledge not share his/her knowledge? Some guidance is required where the student is stuck and the not always is the printed material available. So why wont you answer my queries...because they are basic? These answers are not available in any book , only experience and different views can answer my query....if you want to share. Regards Manoshi , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> wrote: > Manoshi, > > The process of learning jyotish has not really changed all that much > in the modern glittering age of internet which cave-dwellers like me > never experienced when we were cutting our astrological teeth. All > internet has done is made a large amount of information available as > an alternative to books. Information on internet can have questions > regarding quality (mostly non-peerreviewed) and often of > questionable legal status (OCR zindabad!), copyrightwise. > > A student will still have to go through the fundamentals, whether > using a printout or off the screen! And with all that dazzling > theory inside the head, whether from books, teachers or Swami > Internetanada, that theoretical information then would have to be > applied to charts, often cold ones. If the end-result of learning > astrology is to apply to horoscopes, why not incorporate that right > from the beginning? > > Mind you, I realize that you are a professional educator and so > probably know about education, learning etc. more than me. I > responded originally (and subsequently) because your message was > directed to me or addressed me. I have absolutely no problem with > how, why, when or where any individual in this free society wishes > to learn. > > RR > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > <khallopapa> wrote: > > Arent these discussion groups for learning too? Everyone is a > > student at one point of time and learns from experience (by > solving > > practical charts ) and clearing doubts from the learned. 30-40 > > years back when there was no concept of these discussion groups > and > > people did not know the word internet, may be , books and > practical > > learning were the only ways to learn and know. The student would > > never ask a question in the class if he gets a "you know nothing" > > and "find out yourself, I will not help you" answer. Project > method > > or the problem solving method is the best teaching method for sure > > where the student learns himself by solving a problem but in > today's > > world there are some limitations especially in this field of > > astrology. The sincerity of query has to be judged before > > saying "no". That is how the knowledge flows from high to low and > if > > the knowledgeable at the high point keeps the faucet blocked, the > > genuine seeker at the bottom ia also deprived. Astrology no doubt > is > > sometimes beyond logic or scientific explanation but in my opinion > > to seek for the scientific explanation without being held in any > > superstition whatsoever is a very positive attitude. > > > > --Manoshi > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > <rrgb@s...> > > wrote: > > > [First of all, my sincere apologies to Manoshi for using her > > earlier > > > message as a sounding board for venting my frustration!] > > > > > > > > > Astrology is one frustrating *business*, particularly if one is > > > sincere about it and also trying to live in a very pragmatic > world > > > like business, engineering, accounting, managing people, healing > > > people, doing scientific research or deployed in a war-zone > (even > > > more so as a peace-keeping warrior as opposed to being a shell- > > happy > > > killer sublimated to serve his country!). > > > > > > There is much hype and insincerity that exists in astrology and > > > jyotish has more than its fair share of that as we all know and > > > maybe have personally experienced! > > > > > > Time and again, we are reminded of reality, reality that exists > > out > > > there and is perceived by most, as Gauruv's pointed questions > > remind > > > us on this forum, and Mike/Mukund's experience with practicing > > > astrologers get shared with us from time to time, or Tanvir's > very > > > special sensitive personal experiences or Trivedi-jee's for that > > > matter, remind us of there being more to the reality that we > > > astrologers have experienced and continue to experience. And, > many > > > many more postings that appear, here, some appealing, others > taken > > > in despite obvious flaws in logic or purity of intent - > > > inadvertantly posted as those may be. > > > > > > The collage of humanity, of human experience, and its breadth > and > > > spectral range mimicking so closely the physical reality brings > > home > > > the message to me so strongly :-- AS ABOVE, SO BELOW! In > astrology > > > and particularly in Jyotish, there will never be down-pat > answers, > > > no magical book or table of look-up indicators that will tell > the > > > story fully or clearly or obviously or even simply, recent > claims > > > notwithstanding! It is very much like a marriage, folks. One > > cannot > > > observe and really understand or experience it, from the > outside. > > > You have to be in it, you have to be consumed by it, and you > have > > to > > > really want to know it!! > > > > > > I shall now hold my peace, whether it makes sense to you or not! > > For > > > the neophytes, particularly the intelligent, logical ones -- for > > > thousands of years people have been trying to figure out > > the "human > > > experience" -- MOSTLY sages and detached ones and the vocal ones > > > whose writings or spoken words survived (a lot spoken by others > > was > > > lost, I am certain). But there is another very important segment > > of > > > society that has been *quietly* experiencing it, all THIS time! > Do > > > not ever (please) minimize their direct and personal experience > > over > > > that allegedly recorded by the Sages! There is not much oxygen > up > > > there, anyway, on the Himalayas as scientists remind us! > > > > > > Bottom line: If you want to know about the species that lives in > > the > > > muck and grime that surrounds us and our reality, the most > > unlikely > > > place to study that would be from the top of any Mountain or > hill- > > > top! > > > > > > RR, "rohiniranjan" > > > <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > > > Manoshi, > > > > > > > > Far be it for me to take on that lofty responsibility that you > > so > > > > readily and kindly bestow upon me! When others many years > older > > > than > > > > me have already touched on that topic, d-e-c-a-d-e-s ago! I > > have > > > > written several times tight here about Rattan Lal, and his > book > > > > entitled, "Nadi System of Prediction (Stellar Theory) [the > > edition > > > I > > > > have dates back to 1=september 1983]. It is all there! I hope > > many > > > > of you have actually looked for it, or tried to find it from > the > > > > modern comforts of your ergonomic computer chaise. > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > You must actually intrude more so that we all can learn from > > > your > > > > > knowledge and experience. Well, I have a question too. > Could > > > you > > > > > give your views about vargottam and its effects in practical > > > charts > > > > > (any example if you could give) and how much importance do > YOU > > > > give > > > > > to vargottam concept? for debilitation vargottam should make > > it > > > > > worse but say a planet is in enemy's sign and > vargottam...what > > > are > > > > > its effect then or vargottam is only good for the planets > > placed > > > > in > > > > > favorable signs. > > > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Manoshi, if I may introduce my two cents here, the > > vargottama > > > > has > > > > > > more to do with sattwik dreshkana (drekkana. dreshkona as > > some > > > > > > contemporary jyotishis have spelled it) than navamsha with > > the > > > > > same > > > > > > numbered sign as in rashi! > > > > > > > > > > > > I will now hold my tongue! Sorry for intruding!! > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi > > Chatterjee" > > > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > As I understand, a planet in its vargottam state gets > more > > > > > > strength. > > > > > > > So if a debilitated planet is again debilitated in > navamsa > > > > will > > > > > > get > > > > > > > strength as a debilitated planet...so not auspicious. > > > Another > > > > > > logic > > > > > > > which can be given is, the a debilitated planet in rasi > > > chart > > > > > gets > > > > > > > cancellation of debilitation if the planet is in > > exaltation > > > > sign > > > > > > in > > > > > > > navamsa so naturally if it is in debilitation sign in > > > navansa > > > > > > > again ,will have worse effects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Nandkumar > Chinai > > > > > > > <nvchinai> wrote: > > > > > > > > Moon is in Scorpio in both Rasi and Navamsa in this > > > > particular > > > > > > > case i.e it is debilated. So do I understand that it > > gives > > > > > > strength > > > > > > > to moon because of the Vargottam condition is satisfied, > > > > inspite > > > > > > of > > > > > > > debility ? > > > > > > > > Kindly clarify. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Nandkumar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi Chatterjee <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > Vargottam planet is that planet which occupies the > same > > > > > zodiacal > > > > > > > > sign in rashi as in navamsa chart (many people > > suggest... > > > > same > > > > > > > sign > > > > > > > > as in rashi and any divisional chart). It increases > the > > > > > strength > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the planet and is generally said to give auspicious > > > results. > > > > > eg. > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > sun is in Leo in natal rashi chart and in the navansa > > > chart, > > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > said to be vargottam. Indira Gandhi had 4 vargottam > > > planets. > > > > > Now > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > can cast your chart and find out yourself...:-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Nandkumar > > Chinai > > > > > > > > <nvchinai> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Members: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is a Vargottam Planet ? What is the > significance > > of > > > a > > > > > > > > Vargottam Planet ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there a planet which is Vargottam in this chart: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 29th July 1974 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 06:30 Am (IST) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 73E37 > > > > > > > > > 23N02 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL !~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to the > > > Terms > > > > of > > > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 I will claim to have knowledge when I know a lot more, Manoshi. I have been at it for *ONLY* 37 or so years. RR , "Manoshi Chatterjee" <khallopapa> wrote: > > "A student will still have to go through the fundamentals, whether > > using a printout or off the screen! And with all that dazzling > > theory inside the head, whether from books, teachers or Swami > > Internetanada, that theoretical information then would have to be > > applied to charts, often cold ones. If the end-result of learning > > astrology is to apply to horoscopes, why not incorporate that > right > > from the beginning?" > > very true Kaku. But why a person who has knowledge not share his/her > knowledge? Some guidance is required where the student is stuck and > the not always is the printed material available. So why wont you > answer my queries...because they are basic? These answers are not > available in any book , only experience and different views can > answer my query....if you want to share. > > Regards > Manoshi > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@s...> > wrote: > > Manoshi, > > > > The process of learning jyotish has not really changed all that > much > > in the modern glittering age of internet which cave-dwellers like > me > > never experienced when we were cutting our astrological teeth. All > > internet has done is made a large amount of information available > as > > an alternative to books. Information on internet can have > questions > > regarding quality (mostly non-peerreviewed) and often of > > questionable legal status (OCR zindabad!), copyrightwise. > > > > A student will still have to go through the fundamentals, whether > > using a printout or off the screen! And with all that dazzling > > theory inside the head, whether from books, teachers or Swami > > Internetanada, that theoretical information then would have to be > > applied to charts, often cold ones. If the end-result of learning > > astrology is to apply to horoscopes, why not incorporate that > right > > from the beginning? > > > > Mind you, I realize that you are a professional educator and so > > probably know about education, learning etc. more than me. I > > responded originally (and subsequently) because your message was > > directed to me or addressed me. I have absolutely no problem with > > how, why, when or where any individual in this free society wishes > > to learn. > > > > RR > > > > > > , "Manoshi Chatterjee" > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > Arent these discussion groups for learning too? Everyone is a > > > student at one point of time and learns from experience (by > > solving > > > practical charts ) and clearing doubts from the learned. 30- 40 > > > years back when there was no concept of these discussion groups > > and > > > people did not know the word internet, may be , books and > > practical > > > learning were the only ways to learn and know. The student would > > > never ask a question in the class if he gets a "you know > nothing" > > > and "find out yourself, I will not help you" answer. Project > > method > > > or the problem solving method is the best teaching method for > sure > > > where the student learns himself by solving a problem but in > > today's > > > world there are some limitations especially in this field of > > > astrology. The sincerity of query has to be judged before > > > saying "no". That is how the knowledge flows from high to low > and > > if > > > the knowledgeable at the high point keeps the faucet blocked, > the > > > genuine seeker at the bottom ia also deprived. Astrology no > doubt > > is > > > sometimes beyond logic or scientific explanation but in my > opinion > > > to seek for the scientific explanation without being held in > any > > > superstition whatsoever is a very positive attitude. > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > <rrgb@s...> > > > wrote: > > > > [First of all, my sincere apologies to Manoshi for using her > > > earlier > > > > message as a sounding board for venting my frustration!] > > > > > > > > > > > > Astrology is one frustrating *business*, particularly if one > is > > > > sincere about it and also trying to live in a very pragmatic > > world > > > > like business, engineering, accounting, managing people, > healing > > > > people, doing scientific research or deployed in a war-zone > > (even > > > > more so as a peace-keeping warrior as opposed to being a shell- > > > happy > > > > killer sublimated to serve his country!). > > > > > > > > There is much hype and insincerity that exists in astrology > and > > > > jyotish has more than its fair share of that as we all know > and > > > > maybe have personally experienced! > > > > > > > > Time and again, we are reminded of reality, reality that > exists > > > out > > > > there and is perceived by most, as Gauruv's pointed questions > > > remind > > > > us on this forum, and Mike/Mukund's experience with practicing > > > > astrologers get shared with us from time to time, or Tanvir's > > very > > > > special sensitive personal experiences or Trivedi-jee's for > that > > > > matter, remind us of there being more to the reality that we > > > > astrologers have experienced and continue to experience. And, > > many > > > > many more postings that appear, here, some appealing, others > > taken > > > > in despite obvious flaws in logic or purity of intent - > > > > inadvertantly posted as those may be. > > > > > > > > The collage of humanity, of human experience, and its breadth > > and > > > > spectral range mimicking so closely the physical reality > brings > > > home > > > > the message to me so strongly :-- AS ABOVE, SO BELOW! In > > astrology > > > > and particularly in Jyotish, there will never be down-pat > > answers, > > > > no magical book or table of look-up indicators that will tell > > the > > > > story fully or clearly or obviously or even simply, recent > > claims > > > > notwithstanding! It is very much like a marriage, folks. One > > > cannot > > > > observe and really understand or experience it, from the > > outside. > > > > You have to be in it, you have to be consumed by it, and you > > have > > > to > > > > really want to know it!! > > > > > > > > I shall now hold my peace, whether it makes sense to you or > not! > > > For > > > > the neophytes, particularly the intelligent, logical ones -- > for > > > > thousands of years people have been trying to figure out > > > the "human > > > > experience" -- MOSTLY sages and detached ones and the vocal > ones > > > > whose writings or spoken words survived (a lot spoken by > others > > > was > > > > lost, I am certain). But there is another very important > segment > > > of > > > > society that has been *quietly* experiencing it, all THIS > time! > > Do > > > > not ever (please) minimize their direct and personal > experience > > > over > > > > that allegedly recorded by the Sages! There is not much oxygen > > up > > > > there, anyway, on the Himalayas as scientists remind us! > > > > > > > > Bottom line: If you want to know about the species that lives > in > > > the > > > > muck and grime that surrounds us and our reality, the most > > > unlikely > > > > place to study that would be from the top of any Mountain or > > hill- > > > > top! > > > > > > > > RR, "rohiniranjan" > > > > <rrgb@s...> wrote: > > > > > Manoshi, > > > > > > > > > > Far be it for me to take on that lofty responsibility that > you > > > so > > > > > readily and kindly bestow upon me! When others many years > > older > > > > than > > > > > me have already touched on that topic, d-e-c-a-d-e-s ago! I > > > have > > > > > written several times tight here about Rattan Lal, and his > > book > > > > > entitled, "Nadi System of Prediction (Stellar Theory) [the > > > edition > > > > I > > > > > have dates back to 1=september 1983]. It is all there! I > hope > > > many > > > > > of you have actually looked for it, or tried to find it from > > the > > > > > modern comforts of your ergonomic computer chaise. > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi > Chatterjee" > > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > You must actually intrude more so that we all can learn > from > > > > your > > > > > > knowledge and experience. Well, I have a question too. > > Could > > > > you > > > > > > give your views about vargottam and its effects in > practical > > > > charts > > > > > > (any example if you could give) and how much importance do > > YOU > > > > > give > > > > > > to vargottam concept? for debilitation vargottam should > make > > > it > > > > > > worse but say a planet is in enemy's sign and > > vargottam...what > > > > are > > > > > > its effect then or vargottam is only good for the planets > > > placed > > > > > in > > > > > > favorable signs. > > > > > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > > > > > <rrgb@s...> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Manoshi, if I may introduce my two cents here, the > > > vargottama > > > > > has > > > > > > > more to do with sattwik dreshkana (drekkana. dreshkona > as > > > some > > > > > > > contemporary jyotishis have spelled it) than navamsha > with > > > the > > > > > > same > > > > > > > numbered sign as in rashi! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will now hold my tongue! Sorry for intruding!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Manoshi > > > Chatterjee" > > > > > > > <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > As I understand, a planet in its vargottam state gets > > more > > > > > > > strength. > > > > > > > > So if a debilitated planet is again debilitated in > > navamsa > > > > > will > > > > > > > get > > > > > > > > strength as a debilitated planet...so not auspicious. > > > > Another > > > > > > > logic > > > > > > > > which can be given is, the a debilitated planet in > rasi > > > > chart > > > > > > gets > > > > > > > > cancellation of debilitation if the planet is in > > > exaltation > > > > > sign > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > navamsa so naturally if it is in debilitation sign in > > > > navansa > > > > > > > > again ,will have worse effects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Nandkumar > > Chinai > > > > > > > > <nvchinai> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Moon is in Scorpio in both Rasi and Navamsa in this > > > > > particular > > > > > > > > case i.e it is debilated. So do I understand that it > > > gives > > > > > > > strength > > > > > > > > to moon because of the Vargottam condition is > satisfied, > > > > > inspite > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > debility ? > > > > > > > > > Kindly clarify. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Nandkumar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoshi Chatterjee <khallopapa> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Vargottam planet is that planet which occupies the > > same > > > > > > zodiacal > > > > > > > > > sign in rashi as in navamsa chart (many people > > > suggest... > > > > > same > > > > > > > > sign > > > > > > > > > as in rashi and any divisional chart). It increases > > the > > > > > > strength > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the planet and is generally said to give auspicious > > > > results. > > > > > > eg. > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > sun is in Leo in natal rashi chart and in the > navansa > > > > chart, > > > > > > it > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > said to be vargottam. Indira Gandhi had 4 vargottam > > > > planets. > > > > > > Now > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > can cast your chart and find out yourself...:-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Manoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Nandkumar > > > Chinai > > > > > > > > > <nvchinai> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Members: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is a Vargottam Planet ? What is the > > significance > > > of > > > > a > > > > > > > > > Vargottam Planet ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there a planet which is Vargottam in this chart: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 29th July 1974 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 06:30 Am (IST) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 73E37 > > > > > > > > > > 23N02 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New and Improved Mail - 100MB free storage! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~! LIFE MEANS STRUGGLE, THE FITTEST WINS SURVIVAL ! ~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To from this group, send an email to: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to the > > > > > Terms > > > > > of > > > > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Hello everybody, A small sample of how much RR is interested in teaching beginners and how really really good he is at it. http://www.geocities.com/clarity2020/tuto0.htm Thanks, Nandini. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Thats a great site. thanks for sharing. --Manoshi , "kakan_leo" <kakan_leo> wrote: > > Hello everybody, > > A small sample of how much RR is interested in teaching beginners > and how really really good he is at it. > > http://www.geocities.com/clarity2020/tuto0.htm > > Thanks, > > Nandini. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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