Guest guest Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Dear Ashutosh: I agree with you completely in your view that we an be our own Gurus, which, in fact, is the real spiritual upliftment. It is fortunate that from the beginning of my 30 year spiritual path, I was taught that the "teachings are the guru," so I never got caught up in the "guru bandaid" cults, although like many I was a part of numerous spiritual groups. From those groups, I obtained the teachings, which are the real perfection but an ideal from a human standpoint until one reaches enlightenment. It is because of the human imperfection that many members of these groups, whether religious or not, become caught in the traps of maya in the form of power or lust and thus are no different in their operation than other political or business organizations. I have personally witnessed too many people observe ritualistic practices but are incapable of translating these among their fellow man and woman as often the common person can and does do, in the form of helping others as an act of kindness. In fact, this is one reason I agree with the Dalai Lama that [his] policy is kindness. If we all could only act with that one teaching, the world would be a different place than the one we see on the news in the world every day. The true path to liberation is to bring our actions into closer alignment with the purity of the teachings, and when we do not succeed, to try again, until we do one day reach the Buddhic plane of the Pure Land and do not have to return to the world of maya again. I offer a blessing from another of my favorite gurus on the human plane, Shree Maa, who embodies in her actions and being the true meaning of the teachings on the occasion of Mother's Day in the US West on Sunday, May 14, asking simply to achieve victory through peace, wisdom, the sharing of wisdom, and the removal of all hostility to express the beauty of eternal truth through the form of Mother Kali. Of course there are many forms to express this beauty of eternal truth, including Jyotish; I think it's only important to bring our awareness to these higher ideals and to respect the teacher who brings the light of wisdom to humanity but not necessarily to worship him or her because although they are beyond karma, they too often reflect the impurities of those who cluster around them like the imperfections seen in a pure crystal. These individuals often remain in organizations because of their own weaknesses and inability to express truth and wisdom in their own practical lives so their participaton in these groups is often cosmetic and cultural, 'though certainly does not apply to all, and does not reach the depth of the beauty of eternal truth, but is only a beginning, often superficial stage in the seeker's development. Janna Om aim hrim klim camundayai vicce http://seven_directions.tripod.com/ Oh Divine Mother, make us instruments of your peace. Oh Divine Mother, grant us increase in strength with your pure nature. Oh Divine Mother, grant us increase in pure love and pure knowledge with true wealth. Give us your form, give us victory, give us welfare, remove all hostility. Oh Divine Mother, you are the destroyer of all opposition. Give us your form, give us victory, give us welfare, remove all hostility. Oh Mother of the Universe, protect this universe with peace and protect those who share wisdom. Remove all hostility. Oh Divine Mother, you are the essence of truth, consciousness, happiness; the form of pure conscious being. You are the beauty of eternal truth. Give us your form, give us victory, give us welfare, remove all hostility. Oh Divine Mother, give us your very own nature. Give us your mercy. Oh Merciful Mother, give us the refuge of your lotus feet. Make us victorious. Bless us. Jai Maa Shree Maa Mother's Day, May 14, 2006 All our Love and Blessings, Shree Maa and Swamiji http://www.shreemaa.org/ -- valist, "astrologerashutosh" <astrologerashutosh wrote: > > Dear friend, > > When I said 'all' I meant 'all'. A true well wishing honest guru does not need to form any cult or organisation. He helps all in his surroundings, as a son, as a husband, as a friend, and in many different ways. > > You and I are better than these sect-leaders. We think good and do good to more people around us and that too with total honesty. > > In India, these days, there is a flood of Gurus. Switch on any television channel in the morning and you will find them in different garbs, disguises and poses. All are attempting to prove that we have been living a wrong way of life and only they can teach us the correct way. But, no one says that we an be our own Gurus, which, in fact, is the real spiritual upliftment. > > Sects are a big business and no Guru is untouched by this business. I had searched a lot of places for a true Guru and found not even one. Then, I looked at people around me, my family, friends, even myself, and now I have so many Gurus. Even the neighbourhood kids have a lot to teach me. They show me some different perspectives of life everyday. > > A gurus is not only the one whose feet are required to be touched. Even a person who shakes hands with you can teach you a lot. > > Remember, any organisational setup gives a lot of powers to its leader. And power always corrupts. Because if the leader is not corrupt, he cannot remain a leader for long. He has to make several compromises to keep the organisation running. > > > You and I, living simple lives in our homes, peacefully co-existing with our neighbours, paying all our taxes, commiting no crimes, are a lot better and much happier than anyone who is a member of these sects or cults. > > > Regards, > > Ashutosh > > > > > > - > temp_spk4 > valist > Saturday, 13 May, 2006 00:26 > Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > Ashutosh, > > I think that your statement "you have bared the reality of all these > organised cults, sects and gurus" would be better said if instead > of "all" you used "some". Unless, by "all" you were referring to > just those that Rick has had personal experience with and making a > generalization. > > Just because one has negative experiences with several gurus does not > automatically mean that there are not true Gurus, even today. > Perhaps such negative experiences and false gurus can be seen in the > natal chart. > > If one had continual negative experiences with astologers and was > defrauded every time then such a person might state that "astrology > causes all sorts of problems and astogolers are fakes who are out for > money" because that has been there experience. However, here we know > that this is not the case because we have had the experience that > astrology works and we probably know some astrologers who help others > greatly with the knowledge they share. > > valist, "astrologerashutosh" > <astrologerashutosh@> wrote: > > > > Dear Das, > > > > This post of yours is a real eye opener. You have > bared the reality of all these organised cults, sects and gurus. > > > > Some years back some boxes of arms and ammunitions were > dropped in Purulia district of west bengal by an intruder aeroplane. > Though the police knew that they were meant for the Anand Margis, > they had no evidence to book them. > > > > One very famous yogi, Dhirendra Brahmachari, who was > personal yoga trainer of Indira Gandhi, owned a gun manufacturing > factory in Jammu city in Jammu and Kashmir, in India. He had his own > private aircrafts and own runway to land them. > > > > Then, there is Rajnish. His exploits and extravagances are > well known. > > > > Becoming a guru is the easiest way to power. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > - > > Das Goravani > > valist > > Friday, 12 May, 2006 06:59 > > Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > > > > > > Death > > > > I have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain and no > struggle, > > they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional she > was actually > > having fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for days > before. > > There seems to be a repeating pattern of them seeing other people > in the > > room that we don't see..always people of their past or that you > would think > > they might see...like Christians seeing Christ while Hindus see > Hanuman or > > some such...obviously the mind at work if you ask me. There is > record of a > > famous Irish man dieing long ago and he was speaking of seeing > the Druids, > > and so on. > > > > But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I don't > think it is > > to be feared. It seems really easy and natural. Of course not > the horrific > > ones...they contain suffering...but still...towards the end, > shock sets in > > and protects the person from feeling, quite often. Shock is the > friend of > > the traumatized it seems. > > > > But as for natural mellow deaths, they seem to be not too > difficult overall. > > And I think it seems like the best assumption, to think that the > sentient > > conscious being travels through dreamspace of some type, and > eventually into > > a new life, to continue the learning process, the growing process. > > > > And it seems, that overall, the whole Earth, all the people and > animals, > > every being, is linked in one huge class lesson set, one life > that we all > > live together for billions of years, as if we are going somewhere > together, > > being raised as a batch, together, progressing together, and now, > with TV, > > camers, the internet, it's reached a new high of awareness, as we > learn to > > literally know about and see each other constantly. Nobody in my > parents > > generation ever met an Indian. Now I'm writing to thousands of > them from my > > living room, and I've travelled there four times. This is all > very new. > > The lesson seems to be exponentially going up. > > > > ----------------------- > > > > The Proveable > > > > There is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material > nature itself. > > For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if they > don't > > breathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or life > will perish, > > the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and much > much more. > > > > From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the > unproveable. It is > > natural, and that's how people end up coming up with relgious > theories. > > > > What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach to > see, know, > > touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the > creation in which > > we live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that runs > the > > internet is well understood and all our messages are reaching > this list, so > > talk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is > > "un-know-able", true, correct. > > > > There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and each > isolated > > culture of the old times did so in their own ways, for example, > in Ireland > > they called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in > India "Vishnu" etc. > > > > They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the rituals. > Certain > > common threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and > a "God" of some > > sort, but there were MANY differences as well. > > > > That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures try to > harmonize > > their views with each other. You might call it "babble". > > > > ---------------------- > > > > Abuse > > > > So the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say that > one needs a > > Guru in order to know God, and Jesus said something similar...the > idea that > > one needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religions > > worldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who > perform the > > sacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right > guidance" for > > the novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us call it > > priestcraft with a bit of disdain. > > > > It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the Guru, > or teacher, > > has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the founder was > > worshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and in > fact, they say > > "kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than God > because > > "God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers you to > God". > > > > So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not questioned, > he is > > infallible, as the Pope is infallible. > > > > Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. Cardinals > have raised > > their own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had to > defend their > > temples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history. > > > > When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first day, > he showed > > me my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban > Warfare Gun. > > It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing > humans. It's > > what you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, > light, and > > deadly. > > > > I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a thing > nor even > > seen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the > Guru". > > > > Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But > nobody could > > question that. Eventually we could see he also liked Porsche > cars and > > Mercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the woman too. > > > > Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy drove > through our > > city shooting at stores that bothered him, with live ammunition, > from one > > his many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, whatever, > and there > > were people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. I > knew him well. > > There is no other explanation. > > > > Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years > later he > > apologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our lives. > He had > > "shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got to > waste > > expensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets on our > Hare > > Krishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I saw > beyond it. > > But I had no alternative except bewildernment. > > > > The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru had > these > > options and he knew what was best. There was a general sense > always that > > "the end of society is near" and that we had to take measures. > Finally the > > goverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that was > just one of > > his many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy > events, that I > > eventually left him and went to another. But that one feel too. > Then > > another, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been > through a few > > Gurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things. > > > > So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he may > also be the > > path destroyer. > > > > Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to hear > your voice, > > your song, your way, your lessons. > > > > Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to be > > "infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons are > really great. > > But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of renunciation", > as in the > > case of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, > really "the path to > > emulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the thing to > emulate? > > > > My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty much > what I've > > done. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other > scriptures, always > > being involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as > well. Kindof > > prefer that singular self knowing thing now...know thyself...and > through > > that path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but if > being > > deluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own real > feelings, the > > rest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in a way > wasted > > alot of my life learning that one lesson. > > > > ------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > <*> valist/ <*> valist <*> Your Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Alas, I am still here and still want to write more. Ashutosh, I agree completely that a true well-wishing honest Guru does not need to form any organization. But I do not think that automically means that they will not. The true and many reasons for things may be unknown to us. And I do not think there is anything inherently evil about organizations. Much can be accomplished when many work in harmony toward the same goal. And do you agree that it is possible that the devotees of a Guru may take it upon themselves to form an organization around the Guru? Saints are uplifted above others because they put themselves above no one & are ahead of/lead others becuase they put themselves ahead of no one. Certainly, there must be a vast number of self-proclaimed gurus that Rick and yourself have described, who run sects/cults/organizations. I have not encounted them first hand, but I definitely take Rick's word for it and your word for it. However, again I say that this does not indicate there are no true Gurus, it just means that neither you nor Rick have encountered one that you could take to be a true Guru. Again, I say to you if a person has all negative experiences with anything, whether it be religion, gurus, astrology, police, kids, pets, hippies, corporate executives, ect.... then such a person's perception may be colored by the said experiences. It so very easy for that to happen. A coloration of perception due to past experience is what I call karma. It could be "ROSY" colored perception from positive experiences or, I don't know, GREY colored perception from negative experience. If one thinks & acts in accordance to this coloration and does not see things how they truly are then such a one can be said to be under the infuence of karma. What you described is that you have the humility to learn from others and to see in them the same as what is in you. Perhaps it is your lot in life to not have a Sat ("True") Guru, but rather to awaken & develop love through your interactions with many people. The only thing I take expection to in your writing is the use of the word "all". Is it possible that we could dig for a lifetime in a mine and not find any trace of a diamond? Is is possilble that hundreds, thousands of others have the same experience? And still is it possible that another person may dig for 10 minutes and find a diamond? Ashutosh, I do not know. But I am not willing to rule it out. What you describe about the way you live your life is beautiful. And I thank you sincerely for sharing your wisdom here. Perhaps each aspect of wisdom, of love, that you have gleaned from your encounters with others, the Guru you see in others, will one day be before you in totality, embodied as your Sat-Guru, one who is qualified to guide you beyond the limited view that the objects of the senses provide. Or not, who can say for certain? I think it is possible to be open to the possibility with out sacrificing one's caution & reason. It is also possible that we may not consider some one to be a Guru and actually may have a dislike for such a person when such a one is Sat-Guru to another. Many today are called to wear a monk's robe, but to wear it "on the inside" and cultivate themselves within society, to improve society by merging with it, rather than in the seclusion of a cave or in the woods. As described earlier it not the "label" that makes one who one is, whether the label is self-imposed or given by others, nor is it a particular uniform or dress. And those who wear the uniform and have the label may not be the real deal. Again, we can "know a tree by its fruit." Namaste valist, "astrologerashutosh" <astrologerashutosh wrote: > > Dear friend, > > When I said 'all' I meant 'all'. A true well wishing honest guru does not need to form any cult or organisation. He helps all in his surroundings, as a son, as a husband, as a friend, and in many different ways. > > You and I are better than these sect-leaders. We think good and do good to more people around us and that too with total honesty. > > In India, these days, there is a flood of Gurus. Switch on any television channel in the morning and you will find them in different garbs, disguises and poses. All are attempting to prove that we have been living a wrong way of life and only they can teach us the correct way. But, no one says that we an be our own Gurus, which, in fact, is the real spiritual upliftment. > > Sects are a big business and no Guru is untouched by this business. I had searched a lot of places for a true Guru and found not even one. Then, I looked at people around me, my family, friends, even myself, and now I have so many Gurus. Even the neighbourhood kids have a lot to teach me. They show me some different perspectives of life everyday. > > A gurus is not only the one whose feet are required to be touched. Even a person who shakes hands with you can teach you a lot. > > Remember, any organisational setup gives a lot of powers to its leader. And power always corrupts. Because if the leader is not corrupt, he cannot remain a leader for long. He has to make several compromises to keep the organisation running. > > > You and I, living simple lives in our homes, peacefully co- existing with our neighbours, paying all our taxes, commiting no crimes, are a lot better and much happier than anyone who is a member of these sects or cults. > > > Regards, > > Ashutosh > > > > > > - > temp_spk4 > valist > Saturday, 13 May, 2006 00:26 > Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > Ashutosh, > > I think that your statement "you have bared the reality of all these > organised cults, sects and gurus" would be better said if instead > of "all" you used "some". Unless, by "all" you were referring to > just those that Rick has had personal experience with and making a > generalization. > > Just because one has negative experiences with several gurus does not > automatically mean that there are not true Gurus, even today. > Perhaps such negative experiences and false gurus can be seen in the > natal chart. > > If one had continual negative experiences with astologers and was > defrauded every time then such a person might state that "astrology > causes all sorts of problems and astogolers are fakes who are out for > money" because that has been there experience. However, here we know > that this is not the case because we have had the experience that > astrology works and we probably know some astrologers who help others > greatly with the knowledge they share. > > valist, "astrologerashutosh" > <astrologerashutosh@> wrote: > > > > Dear Das, > > > > This post of yours is a real eye opener. You have > bared the reality of all these organised cults, sects and gurus. > > > > Some years back some boxes of arms and ammunitions were > dropped in Purulia district of west bengal by an intruder aeroplane. > Though the police knew that they were meant for the Anand Margis, > they had no evidence to book them. > > > > One very famous yogi, Dhirendra Brahmachari, who was > personal yoga trainer of Indira Gandhi, owned a gun manufacturing > factory in Jammu city in Jammu and Kashmir, in India. He had his own > private aircrafts and own runway to land them. > > > > Then, there is Rajnish. His exploits and extravagances are > well known. > > > > Becoming a guru is the easiest way to power. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > - > > Das Goravani > > valist > > Friday, 12 May, 2006 06:59 > > Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > > > > > > Death > > > > I have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain and no > struggle, > > they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional she > was actually > > having fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for days > before. > > There seems to be a repeating pattern of them seeing other people > in the > > room that we don't see..always people of their past or that you > would think > > they might see...like Christians seeing Christ while Hindus see > Hanuman or > > some such...obviously the mind at work if you ask me. There is > record of a > > famous Irish man dieing long ago and he was speaking of seeing > the Druids, > > and so on. > > > > But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I don't > think it is > > to be feared. It seems really easy and natural. Of course not > the horrific > > ones...they contain suffering...but still...towards the end, > shock sets in > > and protects the person from feeling, quite often. Shock is the > friend of > > the traumatized it seems. > > > > But as for natural mellow deaths, they seem to be not too > difficult overall. > > And I think it seems like the best assumption, to think that the > sentient > > conscious being travels through dreamspace of some type, and > eventually into > > a new life, to continue the learning process, the growing process. > > > > And it seems, that overall, the whole Earth, all the people and > animals, > > every being, is linked in one huge class lesson set, one life > that we all > > live together for billions of years, as if we are going somewhere > together, > > being raised as a batch, together, progressing together, and now, > with TV, > > camers, the internet, it's reached a new high of awareness, as we > learn to > > literally know about and see each other constantly. Nobody in my > parents > > generation ever met an Indian. Now I'm writing to thousands of > them from my > > living room, and I've travelled there four times. This is all > very new. > > The lesson seems to be exponentially going up. > > > > ----------------------- > > > > The Proveable > > > > There is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material > nature itself. > > For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if they > don't > > breathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or life > will perish, > > the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and much > much more. > > > > From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the > unproveable. It is > > natural, and that's how people end up coming up with relgious > theories. > > > > What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach to > see, know, > > touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the > creation in which > > we live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that runs > the > > internet is well understood and all our messages are reaching > this list, so > > talk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is > > "un-know-able", true, correct. > > > > There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and each > isolated > > culture of the old times did so in their own ways, for example, > in Ireland > > they called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in > India "Vishnu" etc. > > > > They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the rituals. > Certain > > common threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and > a "God" of some > > sort, but there were MANY differences as well. > > > > That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures try to > harmonize > > their views with each other. You might call it "babble". > > > > ---------------------- > > > > Abuse > > > > So the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say that > one needs a > > Guru in order to know God, and Jesus said something similar...the > idea that > > one needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religions > > worldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who > perform the > > sacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right > guidance" for > > the novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us call it > > priestcraft with a bit of disdain. > > > > It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the Guru, > or teacher, > > has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the founder was > > worshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and in > fact, they say > > "kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than God > because > > "God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers you to > God". > > > > So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not questioned, > he is > > infallible, as the Pope is infallible. > > > > Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. Cardinals > have raised > > their own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had to > defend their > > temples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history. > > > > When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first day, > he showed > > me my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban > Warfare Gun. > > It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing > humans. It's > > what you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, > light, and > > deadly. > > > > I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a thing > nor even > > seen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the > Guru". > > > > Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But > nobody could > > question that. Eventually we could see he also liked Porsche > cars and > > Mercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the woman too. > > > > Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy drove > through our > > city shooting at stores that bothered him, with live ammunition, > from one > > his many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, whatever, > and there > > were people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. I > knew him well. > > There is no other explanation. > > > > Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years > later he > > apologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our lives. > He had > > "shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got to > waste > > expensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets on our > Hare > > Krishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I saw > beyond it. > > But I had no alternative except bewildernment. > > > > The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru had > these > > options and he knew what was best. There was a general sense > always that > > "the end of society is near" and that we had to take measures. > Finally the > > goverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that was > just one of > > his many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy > events, that I > > eventually left him and went to another. But that one feel too. > Then > > another, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been > through a few > > Gurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things. > > > > So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he may > also be the > > path destroyer. > > > > Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to hear > your voice, > > your song, your way, your lessons. > > > > Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to be > > "infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons are > really great. > > But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of renunciation", > as in the > > case of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, > really "the path to > > emulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the thing to > emulate? > > > > My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty much > what I've > > done. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other > scriptures, always > > being involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as > well. Kindof > > prefer that singular self knowing thing now...know thyself...and > through > > that path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but if > being > > deluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own real > feelings, the > > rest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in a way > wasted > > alot of my life learning that one lesson. > > > > ------------------------- > > > > > > > > : valist- > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > <*> valist/ <*> valist <*> Your Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 valist, Das Goravani <> wrote: > > > Death > > I have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain and no struggle, > they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional she was actually > having fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for days before. > There seems to be a repeating pattern of them seeing other people in the > room that we don't see..always people of their past or that you would think > they might see...like Christians seeing Christ while Hindus see Hanuman or > some such...obviously the mind at work if you ask me. There is record of a > famous Irish man dieing long ago and he was speaking of seeing the Druids, > and so on. I have never seen anyone die right in front of my eyes, however I have been with a person about 2 minutes before their "apparent" death. The look on the face of the person that I saw was not a happy one nor did the person seem delusional. The person was looking right at me & did not seem to be preoccupied at all with visions of dead relatives or Christ figures. > > But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I don't think it is > to be feared. It seems really easy and natural. Of course not the horrific > ones...they contain suffering...but still...towards the end, shock sets in > and protects the person from feeling, quite often. Shock is the friend of > the traumatized it seems. > > But as for natural mellow deaths, they seem to be not too difficult overall. > And I think it seems like the best assumption, to think that the sentient > conscious being travels through dreamspace of some type, and eventually into > a new life, to continue the learning process, the growing process. This dreamspace has appeared to me a black spinning vortex. There was more to it than that but basically that is what it was. > > And it seems, that overall, the whole Earth, all the people and animals, > every being, is linked in one huge class lesson set, one life that we all > live together for billions of years, as if we are going somewhere together, > being raised as a batch, together, progressing together, and now, with TV, > camers, the internet, it's reached a new high of awareness, as we learn to > literally know about and see each other constantly. Nobody in my parents > generation ever met an Indian. Now I'm writing to thousands of them from my > living room, and I've travelled there four times. This is all very new. > The lesson seems to be exponentially going up. I completely agree with you. I believe the universe & its people are in fact, "going somewhere together" and we are progressing together. I also believe that the universe is growing. I believe that was the idea at the time of creation ) > > ----------------------- > > The Proveable > > There is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material nature itself. > For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if they don't > breathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or life will perish, > the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and much much more. > > From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the unproveable. It is > natural, and that's how people end up coming up with relgious theories. > > What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach to see, know, > touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the creation in which > we live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that runs the > internet is well understood and all our messages are reaching this list, so > talk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is > "un-know-able", true, correct. > > There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and each isolated > culture of the old times did so in their own ways, for example, in Ireland > they called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in India "Vishnu" etc. In my own opinion, I believe that God doesn't care what you him. I have never been told a "name" for God. I have heard the word "God" & "Him" spoken to me but I've never actually heard the names "Dagda" , "Woden" or "Vishnu" spoken to me, but that's not to say that they haven't been spoken to anyone else. I believe that God relates to each person of an individual basis according to each of our own levels of understanding and experience. As an example, you probably wouldn't speak to your 2 year old in the same way that you would speak to your 25 year old. I believe God is much the same way. > > They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the rituals. Certain > common threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and a "God" of some > sort, but there were MANY differences as well. > > That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures try to harmonize > their views with each other. You might call it "babble". > > ---------------------- > > Abuse > > So the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say that one needs a > Guru in order to know God, and Jesus said something similar...the idea that > one needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religions > worldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who perform the > sacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right guidance" for > the novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us call it > priestcraft with a bit of disdain. > > It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the Guru, or teacher, > has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the founder was > worshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and in fact, they say > "kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than God because > "God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers you to God". > > So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not questioned, he is > infallible, as the Pope is infallible. > > Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. Cardinals have raised > their own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had to defend their > temples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history. > > When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first day, he showed > me my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban Warfare Gun. > It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing humans. It's > what you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, light, and > deadly. > > I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a thing nor even > seen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the Guru". > > Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But nobody could > question that. Eventually we could see he also liked Porsche cars and > Mercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the woman too. > > Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy drove through our > city shooting at stores that bothered him, with live ammunition, from one > his many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, whatever, and there > were people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. I knew him well. > There is no other explanation. > > Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years later he > apologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our lives. He had > "shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got to waste > expensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets on our Hare > Krishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I saw beyond it. > But I had no alternative except bewildernment. > > The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru had these > options and he knew what was best. There was a general sense always that > "the end of society is near" and that we had to take measures. Finally the > goverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that was just one of > his many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy events, that I > eventually left him and went to another. But that one feel too. Then > another, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been through a few > Gurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things. > > So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he may also be the > path destroyer. > > Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to hear your voice, > your song, your way, your lessons. > > Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to be > "infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons are really great. > But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of renunciation", as in the > case of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, really "the path to > emulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the thing to emulate? > > My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty much what I've > done. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other scriptures, always > being involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as well. Kindof > prefer that singular self knowing thing now...know thyself...and through > that path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but if being > deluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own real feelings, the > rest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in a way wasted > alot of my life learning that one lesson. I have never really been a person to take anyone's word without question. Probably my first spoken word was "why". Why should I believe you? Why does that turn "that" way instead of "this" way? I believe that this really used to irritate my parents ) I question "everything", especially God. He seems to take it well. When I asked why I was so different from everyone else, I was told, "Because you are not like everyone else." I do receive answers to my questions but they are not always as clear as I'd like them to be. It's my opinion, that you have not wasted any of your life at all. Life is meant to be a learning experience. If you have learned in your lifetime "hard" lessons then just keep in mind that you will never have to learn those same lessons again & be proud of yourself for what you have learned. Children and "people" are "meant" to make mistakes & to learn lessons from their mistakes, no matter how long that may take. After all we do have an eternity. Who cares if it takes 30 or 50 years! So what? It takes as long as it takes! I believe that lives are completely progressive. Your soul has perfected by learning and nothing can or ever will be wasted. Every moment is perfect. H. > > ------------------------- > <*> valist/ <*> valist <*> Your Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Dear friend, The whole question is whether to look for a Guru is some other person or to search for a guru who has always been there inside you. The whole idea of having a Guru, or a Satguru, itself is faulty. It undermines ones spiritual self-reliance. I never had any Guru and I know hundreds of such people who have never had any Guru. Those who run after Gurus, are really those who have accumulated to much of guilt over their consciences in their lives due to faulty and indisciplined lives. Then, when they feel that they are going to loose everything, they run after these gurus to get rid of the ghosts of their own misdeeds which have been haunting them. I say it all because today I am in a position to be a typical Guru. It is realy very easy for me.There are many people who respect and rever me. I look like a guru, long hair and all, I can preach for hours, talk on any topic and give appropriate advices. My knowledge is not limited to astrology only, but I have done some deep research in yoga and ayurveda too. But, I know that I will be making them more dependent upon me that way. My aim is to make everyone in my touch self-reliant and self-guiding. I feel more comfortable talking to you as a friend, as an equal. I hate sitting on a pedestal with people bowing before me. Because then I will have to tell a thousand lies just to keep sitting on that pedestal. But, ironically, someone somewhere might be impressed by my these very thoughts and decide to make me his guru. People are ready to worship even lifeless stones and have thousands of reasons and arguments to do so. You are looking at the topic from the point of view of a layman, a guru-seeker. I am looking at it as a potential Guru. To be very frank, it is very easy to be a Guru, but it is really the disciples who make a Guru. Without them, the guru is just a beggar sitting under a tree. Very often, the disciples make someone a Guru and form a group aiming at some higher personal gains. It is all materialism, not spiritualism. The Guru is a status symbol nowadays. It sounds funny, but it is true. When I said 'all', I meant 'all'. Any thoughts why despite having tonnes of Gurus every century, we Indians are still in all sorts of troubles. Regards, Ashutosh - temp_spk4 valist Sunday, 14 May, 2006 01:25 Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse Alas, I am still here and still want to write more. Ashutosh, I agree completely that a true well-wishing honest Guru does not need to form any organization. But I do not think that automically means that they will not. The true and many reasons for things may be unknown to us. And I do not think there is anything inherently evil about organizations. Much can be accomplished when many work in harmony toward the same goal. And do you agree that it is possible that the devotees of a Guru may take it upon themselves to form an organization around the Guru? Saints are uplifted above others because they put themselves above no one & are ahead of/lead others becuase they put themselves ahead of no one. Certainly, there must be a vast number of self-proclaimed gurus that Rick and yourself have described, who run sects/cults/organizations. I have not encounted them first hand, but I definitely take Rick's word for it and your word for it. However, again I say that this does not indicate there are no true Gurus, it just means that neither you nor Rick have encountered one that you could take to be a true Guru. Again, I say to you if a person has all negative experiences with anything, whether it be religion, gurus, astrology, police, kids, pets, hippies, corporate executives, ect.... then such a person's perception may be colored by the said experiences. It so very easy for that to happen. A coloration of perception due to past experience is what I call karma. It could be "ROSY" colored perception from positive experiences or, I don't know, GREY colored perception from negative experience. If one thinks & acts in accordance to this coloration and does not see things how they truly are then such a one can be said to be under the infuence of karma. What you described is that you have the humility to learn from others and to see in them the same as what is in you. Perhaps it is your lot in life to not have a Sat ("True") Guru, but rather to awaken & develop love through your interactions with many people. The only thing I take expection to in your writing is the use of the word "all". Is it possible that we could dig for a lifetime in a mine and not find any trace of a diamond? Is is possilble that hundreds, thousands of others have the same experience? And still is it possible that another person may dig for 10 minutes and find a diamond? Ashutosh, I do not know. But I am not willing to rule it out. What you describe about the way you live your life is beautiful. And I thank you sincerely for sharing your wisdom here. Perhaps each aspect of wisdom, of love, that you have gleaned from your encounters with others, the Guru you see in others, will one day be before you in totality, embodied as your Sat-Guru, one who is qualified to guide you beyond the limited view that the objects of the senses provide. Or not, who can say for certain? I think it is possible to be open to the possibility with out sacrificing one's caution & reason. It is also possible that we may not consider some one to be a Guru and actually may have a dislike for such a person when such a one is Sat-Guru to another. Many today are called to wear a monk's robe, but to wear it "on the inside" and cultivate themselves within society, to improve society by merging with it, rather than in the seclusion of a cave or in the woods. As described earlier it not the "label" that makes one who one is, whether the label is self-imposed or given by others, nor is it a particular uniform or dress. And those who wear the uniform and have the label may not be the real deal. Again, we can "know a tree by its fruit." Namaste valist, "astrologerashutosh" <astrologerashutosh wrote: > > Dear friend, > > When I said 'all' I meant 'all'. A true well wishing honest guru does not need to form any cult or organisation. He helps all in his surroundings, as a son, as a husband, as a friend, and in many different ways. > > You and I are better than these sect-leaders. We think good and do good to more people around us and that too with total honesty. > > In India, these days, there is a flood of Gurus. Switch on any television channel in the morning and you will find them in different garbs, disguises and poses. All are attempting to prove that we have been living a wrong way of life and only they can teach us the correct way. But, no one says that we an be our own Gurus, which, in fact, is the real spiritual upliftment. > > Sects are a big business and no Guru is untouched by this business. I had searched a lot of places for a true Guru and found not even one. Then, I looked at people around me, my family, friends, even myself, and now I have so many Gurus. Even the neighbourhood kids have a lot to teach me. They show me some different perspectives of life everyday. > > A gurus is not only the one whose feet are required to be touched. Even a person who shakes hands with you can teach you a lot. > > Remember, any organisational setup gives a lot of powers to its leader. And power always corrupts. Because if the leader is not corrupt, he cannot remain a leader for long. He has to make several compromises to keep the organisation running. > > > You and I, living simple lives in our homes, peacefully co- existing with our neighbours, paying all our taxes, commiting no crimes, are a lot better and much happier than anyone who is a member of these sects or cults. > > > Regards, > > Ashutosh > > > > > > - > temp_spk4 > valist > Saturday, 13 May, 2006 00:26 > Re: Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > Ashutosh, > > I think that your statement "you have bared the reality of all these > organised cults, sects and gurus" would be better said if instead > of "all" you used "some". Unless, by "all" you were referring to > just those that Rick has had personal experience with and making a > generalization. > > Just because one has negative experiences with several gurus does not > automatically mean that there are not true Gurus, even today. > Perhaps such negative experiences and false gurus can be seen in the > natal chart. > > If one had continual negative experiences with astologers and was > defrauded every time then such a person might state that "astrology > causes all sorts of problems and astogolers are fakes who are out for > money" because that has been there experience. However, here we know > that this is not the case because we have had the experience that > astrology works and we probably know some astrologers who help others > greatly with the knowledge they share. > > valist, "astrologerashutosh" > <astrologerashutosh@> wrote: > > > > Dear Das, > > > > This post of yours is a real eye opener. You have > bared the reality of all these organised cults, sects and gurus. > > > > Some years back some boxes of arms and ammunitions were > dropped in Purulia district of west bengal by an intruder aeroplane. > Though the police knew that they were meant for the Anand Margis, > they had no evidence to book them. > > > > One very famous yogi, Dhirendra Brahmachari, who was > personal yoga trainer of Indira Gandhi, owned a gun manufacturing > factory in Jammu city in Jammu and Kashmir, in India. He had his own > private aircrafts and own runway to land them. > > > > Then, there is Rajnish. His exploits and extravagances are > well known. > > > > Becoming a guru is the easiest way to power. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > - > > Das Goravani > > valist > > Friday, 12 May, 2006 06:59 > > Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > > > > > > Death > > > > I have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain and no > struggle, > > they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional she > was actually > > having fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for days > before. > > There seems to be a repeating pattern of them seeing other people > in the > > room that we don't see..always people of their past or that you > would think > > they might see...like Christians seeing Christ while Hindus see > Hanuman or > > some such...obviously the mind at work if you ask me. There is > record of a > > famous Irish man dieing long ago and he was speaking of seeing > the Druids, > > and so on. > > > > But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I don't > think it is > > to be feared. It seems really easy and natural. Of course not > the horrific > > ones...they contain suffering...but still...towards the end, > shock sets in > > and protects the person from feeling, quite often. Shock is the > friend of > > the traumatized it seems. > > > > But as for natural mellow deaths, they seem to be not too > difficult overall. > > And I think it seems like the best assumption, to think that the > sentient > > conscious being travels through dreamspace of some type, and > eventually into > > a new life, to continue the learning process, the growing process. > > > > And it seems, that overall, the whole Earth, all the people and > animals, > > every being, is linked in one huge class lesson set, one life > that we all > > live together for billions of years, as if we are going somewhere > together, > > being raised as a batch, together, progressing together, and now, > with TV, > > camers, the internet, it's reached a new high of awareness, as we > learn to > > literally know about and see each other constantly. Nobody in my > parents > > generation ever met an Indian. Now I'm writing to thousands of > them from my > > living room, and I've travelled there four times. This is all > very new. > > The lesson seems to be exponentially going up. > > > > ----------------------- > > > > The Proveable > > > > There is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material > nature itself. > > For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if they > don't > > breathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or life > will perish, > > the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and much > much more. > > > > From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the > unproveable. It is > > natural, and that's how people end up coming up with relgious > theories. > > > > What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach to > see, know, > > touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the > creation in which > > we live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that runs > the > > internet is well understood and all our messages are reaching > this list, so > > talk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is > > "un-know-able", true, correct. > > > > There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and each > isolated > > culture of the old times did so in their own ways, for example, > in Ireland > > they called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in > India "Vishnu" etc. > > > > They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the rituals. > Certain > > common threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and > a "God" of some > > sort, but there were MANY differences as well. > > > > That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures try to > harmonize > > their views with each other. You might call it "babble". > > > > ---------------------- > > > > Abuse > > > > So the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say that > one needs a > > Guru in order to know God, and Jesus said something similar...the > idea that > > one needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religions > > worldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who > perform the > > sacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right > guidance" for > > the novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us call it > > priestcraft with a bit of disdain. > > > > It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the Guru, > or teacher, > > has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the founder was > > worshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and in > fact, they say > > "kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than God > because > > "God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers you to > God". > > > > So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not questioned, > he is > > infallible, as the Pope is infallible. > > > > Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. Cardinals > have raised > > their own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had to > defend their > > temples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history. > > > > When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first day, > he showed > > me my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban > Warfare Gun. > > It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing > humans. It's > > what you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, > light, and > > deadly. > > > > I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a thing > nor even > > seen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the > Guru". > > > > Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But > nobody could > > question that. Eventually we could see he also liked Porsche > cars and > > Mercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the woman too. > > > > Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy drove > through our > > city shooting at stores that bothered him, with live ammunition, > from one > > his many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, whatever, > and there > > were people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. I > knew him well. > > There is no other explanation. > > > > Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years > later he > > apologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our lives. > He had > > "shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got to > waste > > expensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets on our > Hare > > Krishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I saw > beyond it. > > But I had no alternative except bewildernment. > > > > The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru had > these > > options and he knew what was best. There was a general sense > always that > > "the end of society is near" and that we had to take measures. > Finally the > > goverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that was > just one of > > his many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy > events, that I > > eventually left him and went to another. But that one feel too. > Then > > another, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been > through a few > > Gurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things. > > > > So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he may > also be the > > path destroyer. > > > > Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to hear > your voice, > > your song, your way, your lessons. > > > > Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to be > > "infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons are > really great. > > But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of renunciation", > as in the > > case of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, > really "the path to > > emulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the thing to > emulate? > > > > My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty much > what I've > > done. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other > scriptures, always > > being involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as > well. Kindof > > prefer that singular self knowing thing now...know thyself...and > through > > that path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but if > being > > deluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own real > feelings, the > > rest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in a way > wasted > > alot of my life learning that one lesson. > > > > ------------------------- > > > > > > > > : valist- > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 A poem of another kind-- I can faintly smell the night blooming jasmine in these words....... "If I were foolish enough to give you a system, and if you were foolish enough to follow it, you would merely be copying, imitiating, accepting, and when you do that you have set up in yourself the authority of another and hence there is conflict between you and that authority. You feel you must do such and such a thing because you have been told to do it and yet you are incapable of doing it. You have you own particular inclinations, tendencies and pressures which conflict with the system you think you ought to follow and therefore there is contradiction. So you will lead a double life between the ideology of the system and the actuality of your daily existence. In trying to conform to the ideology, you suppress yourself--whereas what is actually true is not the ideology, but what you are. If you try to study yourself according to another, you will always be a secondhand human being." ...."So you are left with yourself, and that is the actual state for a man to be who is very serious about all this; and as you are no longer looking to anybody or anything for help, you are aleady free to discover. And when there is freedom, there is energy; and when there is freedom it can never do anything wrong. Freedom is entirely different from revolt. There is no such thing as doing right or wrong when there is freedom. You are free and from that center you act. And hence there is no fear, and a mind that has no fear is capable of great love. And when there is love it can do what it will." J. Krishnamurti "Freedom From the Known" Best wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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