Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different view of the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other associated facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an additional mean to others that are available to us, including logic and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort of a direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and this reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are possible in this unfathomable quantum reality. Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid of intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in the hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in some flash of inspiration? We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and tangible things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, education, etc. We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, one's thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often surmised and not really confirmed! And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, how many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, what will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my last birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? Jyotishis, if not jyotish, always have an answer! And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to figure out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, so rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: Things such as gender, race, religion and political affiliation! Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they say in India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: I can do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the gender, religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and political affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some of the ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we have been discussing and hearing about. Comments, volunteers? Rohiniranjan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Dear Rohini da, Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change over to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish to subject issues of less pep and sour tastes I often find in my educational set up people tend to be application oriented research than to basic research.Every body knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest in common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base for unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more important than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to operate in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but not whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from animal kingdom,though as homosapiens. People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics could have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate concerns were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing lagoons. That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on specifics?Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races mutate but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend takes generations to pass. regards krishnan rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different view of the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other associated facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an additional mean to others that are available to us, including logic and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort of a direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and this reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are possible in this unfathomable quantum reality. Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid of intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in the hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in some flash of inspiration? We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and tangible things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, education, etc. We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, one's thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often surmised and not really confirmed! And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, how many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, what will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my last birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? Jyotishis, if not jyotish, always have an answer! And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to figure out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, so rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: Things such as gender, race, religion and political affiliation! Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they say in India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: I can do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the gender, religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and political affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some of the ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we have been discussing and hearing about. Comments, volunteers? Rohiniranjan SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology Visit your group "" on the web. Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 I think, being brutally frank here -- it is safer to play in 'sand' because it can take all shapes and form and is satisfying and no one remembers or need to remember what was made! The reality of concrete and down to earth material reality is more difficult because what does not happen as promised is right in your face. Who really comes back to give feedback to the jyotishi whether it was indeed Shiva or Vishnu or Kartikaye that turned out to be the Ishta Devta or whether the nativity did get born as a king or a sheep in the next birth. But, it is hard to explain away and hide from the reality that the 'promised' marriage did not take place, or the job did not materialize. These are tiny things on a grand scale but are on a short time scale and hard to avoid little tests of jyotish! And these are of great immediate importance to the nativity and the nativity is the bridegroom in this marriage called a jyotish reading, because the lagna, first house describes the nativity, unless one is doing certain kinds of horary of course! Only when demonstrably jyotish can manage to get very high scores on this concrete, ordinary reality front would there be any point in playing in the sand of unverifiable Big Reality! I do not intend to drive the hoard of pleasure-seekers off the beach, but perhaps am just scared of Tsunamis which hit closer to the beaches! RR , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > Dear Rohini da, > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change over to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish to subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be application oriented research than to basic research.Every body knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest in common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base for unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more important than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to operate in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but not whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from animal kingdom,though as homosapiens. > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics could have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate concerns were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing lagoons. > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on specifics? Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races mutate but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend takes generations to pass. > regards > krishnan > rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different view of > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other associated > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > additional mean to others that are available to us, including logic > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort of a > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and this > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are possible > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid of > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in the > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in some > flash of inspiration? > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and tangible > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, education, > etc. > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, one's > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often surmised and > not really confirmed! > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, how > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, what > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my last > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? Jyotishis, if > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to figure > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, so > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > Things such as gender, race, religion and political affiliation! > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they say in > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: I can > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the gender, > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and political > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some of the > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we have > been discussing and hearing about. > > Comments, volunteers? > > Rohiniranjan > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta devatas why not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not some two pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and water alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer any question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual gifts or intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take place, when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s query reg ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of priority they have in their lives.It is because of the stark materialistc world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally materialistic, people need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to provide them with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that astrology can provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual emanicipation and why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does jyotish advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the yokes of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out side the box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were doing among jyotish and planets. Regards Nalini , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > Dear Rohini da, > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change over to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish to subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be application oriented research than to basic research.Every body knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest in common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base for unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more important than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to operate in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but not whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from animal kingdom,though as homosapiens. > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics could have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate concerns were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing lagoons. > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on specifics? Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races mutate but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend takes generations to pass. > regards > krishnan > rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different view of > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other associated > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > additional mean to others that are available to us, including logic > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort of a > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and this > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are possible > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid of > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in the > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in some > flash of inspiration? > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and tangible > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, education, > etc. > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, one's > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often surmised and > not really confirmed! > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, how > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, what > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my last > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? Jyotishis, if > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to figure > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, so > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > Things such as gender, race, religion and political affiliation! > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they say in > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: I can > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the gender, > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and political > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some of the > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we have > been discussing and hearing about. > > Comments, volunteers? > > Rohiniranjan > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Sorry for interrupting the conversation, but that is why astrologers say "Planets impel, they do not compel", so that the advise seeker has a feeling that it still might be in his hands(even if its an illusion). , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb wrote: > > I think, being brutally frank here -- it is safer to play in 'sand' > because it can take all shapes and form and is satisfying and no one > remembers or need to remember what was made! > > The reality of concrete and down to earth material reality is more > difficult because what does not happen as promised is right in your > face. > > Who really comes back to give feedback to the jyotishi whether it > was indeed Shiva or Vishnu or Kartikaye that turned out to be the > Ishta Devta or whether the nativity did get born as a king or a > sheep in the next birth. > > But, it is hard to explain away and hide from the reality that > the 'promised' marriage did not take place, or the job did not > materialize. > > These are tiny things on a grand scale but are on a short time scale > and hard to avoid little tests of jyotish! And these are of great > immediate importance to the nativity and the nativity is the > bridegroom in this marriage called a jyotish reading, because the > lagna, first house describes the nativity, unless one is doing > certain kinds of horary of course! > > Only when demonstrably jyotish can manage to get very high scores on > this concrete, ordinary reality front would there be any point in > playing in the sand of unverifiable Big Reality! > > I do not intend to drive the hoard of pleasure-seekers off the > beach, but perhaps am just scared of Tsunamis which hit closer to > the beaches! > > RR > > > > > , vattem krishnan > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such stark > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change over > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish to > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest in > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base for > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more important > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to operate > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but not > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from animal > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics could > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate concerns > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > lagoons. > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on specifics? > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races mutate > but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend > takes generations to pass. > > regards > > krishnan > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different view > of > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > associated > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > logic > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort of > a > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and this > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > possible > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid of > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in the > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in > some > > flash of inspiration? > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and tangible > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > education, > > etc. > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, one's > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often surmised > and > > not really confirmed! > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, how > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, what > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my last > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? Jyotishis, > if > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to figure > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, so > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political affiliation! > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they say in > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: I > can > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the gender, > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and political > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some of > the > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we have > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 RRji, I was in Chennai during the tsunami, would you know hundreds of people flocked the beaches, to watch a recurrence. The law enforcers and volunteers had a tough time keeping them away. so>: Nalini , "ashtt_family" <ashtt_family wrote: > > > Sorry for interrupting the conversation, but that is why astrologers > say "Planets impel, they do not compel", so that the advise seeker > has a feeling that it still might be in his hands(even if its an > illusion). > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > wrote: > > > > I think, being brutally frank here -- it is safer to play in 'sand' > > because it can take all shapes and form and is satisfying and no > one > > remembers or need to remember what was made! > > > > The reality of concrete and down to earth material reality is more > > difficult because what does not happen as promised is right in your > > face. > > > > Who really comes back to give feedback to the jyotishi whether it > > was indeed Shiva or Vishnu or Kartikaye that turned out to be the > > Ishta Devta or whether the nativity did get born as a king or a > > sheep in the next birth. > > > > But, it is hard to explain away and hide from the reality that > > the 'promised' marriage did not take place, or the job did not > > materialize. > > > > These are tiny things on a grand scale but are on a short time > scale > > and hard to avoid little tests of jyotish! And these are of great > > immediate importance to the nativity and the nativity is the > > bridegroom in this marriage called a jyotish reading, because the > > lagna, first house describes the nativity, unless one is doing > > certain kinds of horary of course! > > > > Only when demonstrably jyotish can manage to get very high scores > on > > this concrete, ordinary reality front would there be any point in > > playing in the sand of unverifiable Big Reality! > > > > I do not intend to drive the hoard of pleasure-seekers off the > > beach, but perhaps am just scared of Tsunamis which hit closer to > > the beaches! > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > stark > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change over > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish to > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest in > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base > for > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more important > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to operate > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but not > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from animal > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics could > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate concerns > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > > lagoons. > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > specifics? > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races mutate > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend > > takes generations to pass. > > > regards > > > krishnan > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different view > > of > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > associated > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > > logic > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort of > > a > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and this > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > possible > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid of > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in the > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in > > some > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and tangible > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > education, > > > etc. > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > one's > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often surmised > > and > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, how > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, what > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my last > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? Jyotishis, > > if > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to figure > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, so > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political affiliation! > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they say > in > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: I > > can > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the gender, > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and political > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some of > > the > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we have > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > RELISH > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Dear Friends, Jyotish's delicate way of revealations continue to be indicating incidents of importance to daily life (as well as mundane aspects)what happened yester day in Manila in which almost 18 hundred innocent lives were lost?Saturn's opposition to Sun and closeness to earth as part of Nature have something to reveal about?How otherwise we can think of these incidents that happen abruptly taking a revenge on humanity for distrubing the Nature's equilibrium with our unmindful scietific approaches? .How can we therefore we ignore the conjunction of sun and moon due to take place on 29th march 2006 in the lunar year Vyaya? Nature's fury is the pratyaksha sakshi which we as humans witness yet times whether through Tsunami or in Bhuj like phenomena. Nature so quiet that ususally regales makes us to contend and relax is capable too for devastation.Stronger we feel as a result of technology advancement we are weaker too.Certainly it can never be no more"unverifiable Big Reality!" Occasions involving Nature are well known as from time to time as people have just come out from the jaws of death.They sense it and describe them but shell shocked. In incidents like the one of recent past,people have reverence,awe and a feeling of thrill"perhaps just scared of Tsunamis which hit closer to the beaches!"may not be as the way people thronged to seashores to find whether it is just a rehearsel(?) as they are most used to the quieteness of sea for all along they believed that sea which gives them bread and butter and in such rare events demonstrate: our ancient systems and sastras are capable of sensing and advising what extent the Nature's fury can work?:and not fig of imaginations:how ever rarely they repeat and occur. Perhaps we only enjoy to build sand nests as our efforts are just measured by Nature and all other structures of what ever make have no permanancy before Nature. That way the time is so long and so short.All our predictions and revealations are /have importance only to issues of immediate concern.In a way the entire humanity looks to be in hurry krishnan auromirra19 <nalini2818 wrote: RRji, I was in Chennai during the tsunami, would you know hundreds of people flocked the beaches, to watch a recurrence. The law enforcers and volunteers had a tough time keeping them away. so>: Nalini , "ashtt_family" <ashtt_family wrote: > > > Sorry for interrupting the conversation, but that is why astrologers > say "Planets impel, they do not compel", so that the advise seeker > has a feeling that it still might be in his hands(even if its an > illusion). > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > wrote: > > > > I think, being brutally frank here -- it is safer to play in 'sand' > > because it can take all shapes and form and is satisfying and no > one > > remembers or need to remember what was made! > > > > The reality of concrete and down to earth material reality is more > > difficult because what does not happen as promised is right in your > > face. > > > > Who really comes back to give feedback to the jyotishi whether it > > was indeed Shiva or Vishnu or Kartikaye that turned out to be the > > Ishta Devta or whether the nativity did get born as a king or a > > sheep in the next birth. > > > > But, it is hard to explain away and hide from the reality that > > the 'promised' marriage did not take place, or the job did not > > materialize. > > > > These are tiny things on a grand scale but are on a short time > scale > > and hard to avoid little tests of jyotish! And these are of great > > immediate importance to the nativity and the nativity is the > > bridegroom in this marriage called a jyotish reading, because the > > lagna, first house describes the nativity, unless one is doing > > certain kinds of horary of course! > > > > Only when demonstrably jyotish can manage to get very high scores > on > > this concrete, ordinary reality front would there be any point in > > playing in the sand of unverifiable Big Reality! > > > > I do not intend to drive the hoard of pleasure-seekers off the > > beach, but perhaps am just scared of Tsunamis which hit closer to > > the beaches! > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > stark > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change over > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish to > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest in > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base > for > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more important > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to operate > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but not > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from animal > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics could > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate concerns > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > > lagoons. > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > specifics? > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races mutate > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend > > takes generations to pass. > > > regards > > > krishnan > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different view > > of > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > associated > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > > logic > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort of > > a > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and this > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > possible > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid of > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in the > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in > > some > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and tangible > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > education, > > > etc. > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > one's > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often surmised > > and > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, how > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, what > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my last > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? Jyotishis, > > if > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to figure > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, so > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political affiliation! > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they say > in > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: I > > can > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the gender, > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and political > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some of > > the > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we have > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > RELISH > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. 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Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has everything to boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the(right) hands to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has great swings providing scope for further studies like any other science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned though the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result we discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives not of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not that the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on the beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides krishnan auromirra19 <nalini2818 wrote: Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta devatas why not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not some two pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and water alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer any question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual gifts or intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take place, when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s query reg ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of priority they have in their lives.It is because of the stark materialistc world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally materialistic, people need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to provide them with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that astrology can provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual emanicipation and why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does jyotish advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the yokes of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out side the box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were doing among jyotish and planets. Regards Nalini , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > Dear Rohini da, > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change over to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish to subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be application oriented research than to basic research.Every body knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest in common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base for unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more important than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to operate in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but not whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from animal kingdom,though as homosapiens. > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics could have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate concerns were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing lagoons. > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on specifics? Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races mutate but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend takes generations to pass. > regards > krishnan > rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different view of > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other associated > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > additional mean to others that are available to us, including logic > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort of a > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and this > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are possible > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid of > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in the > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in some > flash of inspiration? > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and tangible > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, education, > etc. > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, one's > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often surmised and > not really confirmed! > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, how > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, what > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my last > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? Jyotishis, if > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to figure > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, so > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > Things such as gender, race, religion and political affiliation! > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they say in > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: I can > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the gender, > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and political > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some of the > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we have > been discussing and hearing about. > > Comments, volunteers? > > Rohiniranjan > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. 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Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and Nalini) in one message, if I may. My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the potential or ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us know. It is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there might lie the answers to every question in the universe. For those who are doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand at the beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a certain pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as long as they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding about the real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non-research' aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to be fair to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less knowledgeable and often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or raising hopes which may have the potential to crash. Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or not easily validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth etc), are definitively and demonstratively established, due to their intrinsic uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things such as gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only astrology principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the unverifiable unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so confidently described as if there is some formula to identify these raises some concerns. Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a science. But then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like scientists and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand that they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, resources etc would make this difficult but the questions should not stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to answer the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect me to ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most hard- boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic curiosity of a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond the horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. Just because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the Yarrow stick finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to do with science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times would have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. Wells, on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous classic novel. Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and so on around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that shrinks and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I refuse to take what is described in there as absolute proof that someone has done all the homework and validated every single combination given therein or even every single principle is on rock steady ground of reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That sort of blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or what science was built upon. I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking into anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated again and again for the benefit not of those with already firm convictions, right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand -- perhaps for the first time. Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation so please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. However, the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, particularly in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that are experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors and counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- whether they are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not mean necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out of jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and dedicated to serving others through it are professionals and must maintain the integrity of what we say and how we say it. RR , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has everything to boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the(right) hands to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has great swings providing scope for further studies like any other science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned though the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result we discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives not of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not that the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on the beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > krishnan > > auromirra19 <nalini2818 wrote: > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta devatas why > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not some two > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and water > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer any > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual gifts or > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take place, > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s query reg > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of priority > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark materialistc > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally materialistic, people > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to provide them > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that astrology can > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual emanicipation and > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does jyotish > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the yokes > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out side the > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were doing > among jyotish and planets. > Regards > Nalini > > , vattem krishnan > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such stark > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change over > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish to > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest in > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base for > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more important > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to operate > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but not > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from animal > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics could > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate concerns > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > lagoons. > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on specifics? > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races mutate > but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend > takes generations to pass. > > regards > > krishnan > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different view > of > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > associated > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > logic > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort of > a > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and this > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > possible > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid of > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in the > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in > some > > flash of inspiration? > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and tangible > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > education, > > etc. > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, one's > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often surmised > and > > not really confirmed! > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, how > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, what > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my last > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? Jyotishis, > if > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to figure > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, so > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political affiliation! > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they say in > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: I > can > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the gender, > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and political > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some of > the > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we have > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? 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Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Prernaji, this is exactly the type of statement I was talking about in a recently posted message. I am not sure if statements such as the one you quoted describe a well researched and experienced/known reality or just a jyotishi's disclaimer! We can fall back upon our religious core and simply say that that is what stated in our scriptures and even Professor B.V. Raman stated so very prominently in his Magazine and so the case is closed. It must be true! The opposite stance is where human beings, albeit larger than all of us, but humans nonetheless because they had to be born and had to die -- like Yogananda have written that at certain times, he went ahead and made successful those ventures that jyotishis had told him would fail. Yogananda further states that in those instances where he 'opposed the planetary forces' [sic] the tasks turned out to be more difficult than usual. If a great one like Yogananda felt the resistance and opposition of the astrological influences, surely it is not a passive indication but a more active sort of force which astrological factors describe or represent. This 'force' though surmountable in most cases of ordinary people could actually be 'compelling' and not just indicating. I do not know what the situation is behind the scenes in how planets act or indicate and so on -- but the above are hints that there lies a much more interesting mechanism behind astrology. It is like the Wizard of Oz where, actually the Wizard might turn out to be simpler than the puppet, astrology itself. And I don't mean God, as one would be tempted to jump to the conclusion of :-) , "ashtt_family" <ashtt_family wrote: > > > Sorry for interrupting the conversation, but that is why astrologers > say "Planets impel, they do not compel", so that the advise seeker > has a feeling that it still might be in his hands(even if its an > illusion). > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > wrote: > > > > I think, being brutally frank here -- it is safer to play in 'sand' > > because it can take all shapes and form and is satisfying and no > one > > remembers or need to remember what was made! > > > > The reality of concrete and down to earth material reality is more > > difficult because what does not happen as promised is right in your > > face. > > > > Who really comes back to give feedback to the jyotishi whether it > > was indeed Shiva or Vishnu or Kartikaye that turned out to be the > > Ishta Devta or whether the nativity did get born as a king or a > > sheep in the next birth. > > > > But, it is hard to explain away and hide from the reality that > > the 'promised' marriage did not take place, or the job did not > > materialize. > > > > These are tiny things on a grand scale but are on a short time > scale > > and hard to avoid little tests of jyotish! And these are of great > > immediate importance to the nativity and the nativity is the > > bridegroom in this marriage called a jyotish reading, because the > > lagna, first house describes the nativity, unless one is doing > > certain kinds of horary of course! > > > > Only when demonstrably jyotish can manage to get very high scores > on > > this concrete, ordinary reality front would there be any point in > > playing in the sand of unverifiable Big Reality! > > > > I do not intend to drive the hoard of pleasure-seekers off the > > beach, but perhaps am just scared of Tsunamis which hit closer to > > the beaches! > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > stark > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change over > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish to > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest in > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base > for > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more important > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to operate > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but not > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from animal > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics could > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate concerns > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > > lagoons. > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > specifics? > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races mutate > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend > > takes generations to pass. > > > regards > > > krishnan > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different view > > of > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > associated > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > > logic > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort of > > a > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and this > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > possible > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid of > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in the > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in > > some > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and tangible > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > education, > > > etc. > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > one's > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often surmised > > and > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, how > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, what > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my last > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? Jyotishis, > > if > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to figure > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, so > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political affiliation! > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they say > in > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: I > > can > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the gender, > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and political > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some of > > the > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we have > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > RELISH > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 If I try to comprehend the random thoughts I have in mind about astrology, all I can say is if one goes to the war unprepared he might lose, due to the shock of the size of the enemy(or the gravity of the situations in real life) since he doesnt look or even try to look at the bigger picture. All he is able to see is the problem thrown into his face without a warning. A large balloon near the nose so only the balloon is visible. However if he has been guided and warned properly he can easily carry a safety pin. One needs to keep the patience and cool and steer clear of aggression and pride at small triumphs... keeping in mind the bigger picture and the the humility intact. But honestly speaking, humilty leaves us when we need it the most. I often fret and fuss and get short tempered only to realise a second later "what for?". But by that time words have left the mouth. Patience requires practice... lots of it. Your example of Shri Yognanda only affirms that astrology can create immortals too. , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb wrote: > > Prernaji, this is exactly the type of statement I was talking about > in a recently posted message. I am not sure if statements such as > the one you quoted describe a well researched and experienced/known > reality or just a jyotishi's disclaimer! > > We can fall back upon our religious core and simply say that that is > what stated in our scriptures and even Professor B.V. Raman stated > so very prominently in his Magazine and so the case is closed. It > must be true! > > The opposite stance is where human beings, albeit larger than all of > us, but humans nonetheless because they had to be born and had to > die -- like Yogananda have written that at certain times, he went > ahead and made successful those ventures that jyotishis had told him > would fail. Yogananda further states that in those instances where > he 'opposed the planetary forces' [sic] the tasks turned out to be > more difficult than usual. If a great one like Yogananda felt the > resistance and opposition of the astrological influences, surely it > is not a passive indication but a more active sort of force which > astrological factors describe or represent. This 'force' though > surmountable in most cases of ordinary people could actually > be 'compelling' and not just indicating. > > I do not know what the situation is behind the scenes in how planets > act or indicate and so on -- but the above are hints that there lies > a much more interesting mechanism behind astrology. It is like the > Wizard of Oz where, actually the Wizard might turn out to be simpler > than the puppet, astrology itself. And I don't mean God, as one > would be tempted to jump to the conclusion of :-) > > , "ashtt_family" > <ashtt_family@> wrote: > > > > > > Sorry for interrupting the conversation, but that is why > astrologers > > say "Planets impel, they do not compel", so that the advise seeker > > has a feeling that it still might be in his hands(even if its an > > illusion). > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I think, being brutally frank here -- it is safer to play > in 'sand' > > > because it can take all shapes and form and is satisfying and no > > one > > > remembers or need to remember what was made! > > > > > > The reality of concrete and down to earth material reality is > more > > > difficult because what does not happen as promised is right in > your > > > face. > > > > > > Who really comes back to give feedback to the jyotishi whether > it > > > was indeed Shiva or Vishnu or Kartikaye that turned out to be > the > > > Ishta Devta or whether the nativity did get born as a king or a > > > sheep in the next birth. > > > > > > But, it is hard to explain away and hide from the reality that > > > the 'promised' marriage did not take place, or the job did not > > > materialize. > > > > > > These are tiny things on a grand scale but are on a short time > > scale > > > and hard to avoid little tests of jyotish! And these are of > great > > > immediate importance to the nativity and the nativity is the > > > bridegroom in this marriage called a jyotish reading, because > the > > > lagna, first house describes the nativity, unless one is doing > > > certain kinds of horary of course! > > > > > > Only when demonstrably jyotish can manage to get very high > scores > > on > > > this concrete, ordinary reality front would there be any point > in > > > playing in the sand of unverifiable Big Reality! > > > > > > I do not intend to drive the hoard of pleasure-seekers off the > > > beach, but perhaps am just scared of Tsunamis which hit closer > to > > > the beaches! > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > > stark > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > should > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change > over > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish > to > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest > in > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base > > for > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > important > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > operate > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but > not > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > animal > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > could > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > concerns > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > > > lagoons. > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > specifics? > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > mutate > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > regards > > > > krishnan > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different > view > > > of > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > associated > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > > > logic > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort > of > > > a > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and > this > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > possible > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid > of > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in > the > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in > > > some > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > tangible > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > education, > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > > one's > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > surmised > > > and > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, > how > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, > what > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my > last > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > Jyotishis, > > > if > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > figure > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, > so > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > affiliation! > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > doubted > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they > say > > in > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: > I > > > can > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > gender, > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > political > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some > of > > > the > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we > have > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > RELISH > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Prernaji, Since you wrote back, it would be disrespectful of me if I do not state the following in all honesty. Please bear with my inability to understand, and kindly elaborate: How did astrology create immortals, based on Yogananda ji's account? and for the 'war' scenarion, one does not need Astrology, but God, as Bhagwat Gita beautifully illustrates (in an identical situation faced by Arjuna)! As far as humility is concerned, there is true humility and feigned or veiled humility. Most people confuse those! I think neither has a place when we are discussing something through words and thoughts, and not emotions! RR , "ashtt_family" <ashtt_family wrote: > > > If I try to comprehend the random thoughts I have in mind about > astrology, all I can say is if one goes to the war unprepared he > might lose, due to the shock of the size of the enemy(or the gravity > of the situations in real life) since he doesnt look or even try to > look at the bigger picture. All he is able to see is the problem > thrown into his face without a warning. A large balloon near the nose > so only the balloon is visible. However if he has been guided and > warned properly he can easily carry a safety pin. > > One needs to keep the patience and cool and steer clear of aggression > and pride at small triumphs... keeping in mind the bigger picture and > the the humility intact. But honestly speaking, humilty leaves us > when we need it the most. I often fret and fuss and get short > tempered only to realise a second later "what for?". But by that time > words have left the mouth. Patience requires practice... lots of it. > Your example of Shri Yognanda only affirms that astrology can create > immortals too. > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > wrote: > > > > Prernaji, this is exactly the type of statement I was talking about > > in a recently posted message. I am not sure if statements such as > > the one you quoted describe a well researched and experienced/known > > reality or just a jyotishi's disclaimer! > > > > We can fall back upon our religious core and simply say that that > is > > what stated in our scriptures and even Professor B.V. Raman stated > > so very prominently in his Magazine and so the case is closed. It > > must be true! > > > > The opposite stance is where human beings, albeit larger than all > of > > us, but humans nonetheless because they had to be born and had to > > die -- like Yogananda have written that at certain times, he went > > ahead and made successful those ventures that jyotishis had told > him > > would fail. Yogananda further states that in those instances where > > he 'opposed the planetary forces' [sic] the tasks turned out to be > > more difficult than usual. If a great one like Yogananda felt the > > resistance and opposition of the astrological influences, surely it > > is not a passive indication but a more active sort of force which > > astrological factors describe or represent. This 'force' though > > surmountable in most cases of ordinary people could actually > > be 'compelling' and not just indicating. > > > > I do not know what the situation is behind the scenes in how > planets > > act or indicate and so on -- but the above are hints that there > lies > > a much more interesting mechanism behind astrology. It is like the > > Wizard of Oz where, actually the Wizard might turn out to be > simpler > > than the puppet, astrology itself. And I don't mean God, as one > > would be tempted to jump to the conclusion of :-) > > > > , "ashtt_family" > > <ashtt_family@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sorry for interrupting the conversation, but that is why > > astrologers > > > say "Planets impel, they do not compel", so that the advise > seeker > > > has a feeling that it still might be in his hands(even if its an > > > illusion). > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I think, being brutally frank here -- it is safer to play > > in 'sand' > > > > because it can take all shapes and form and is satisfying and > no > > > one > > > > remembers or need to remember what was made! > > > > > > > > The reality of concrete and down to earth material reality is > > more > > > > difficult because what does not happen as promised is right in > > your > > > > face. > > > > > > > > Who really comes back to give feedback to the jyotishi whether > > it > > > > was indeed Shiva or Vishnu or Kartikaye that turned out to be > > the > > > > Ishta Devta or whether the nativity did get born as a king or a > > > > sheep in the next birth. > > > > > > > > But, it is hard to explain away and hide from the reality that > > > > the 'promised' marriage did not take place, or the job did not > > > > materialize. > > > > > > > > These are tiny things on a grand scale but are on a short time > > > scale > > > > and hard to avoid little tests of jyotish! And these are of > > great > > > > immediate importance to the nativity and the nativity is the > > > > bridegroom in this marriage called a jyotish reading, because > > the > > > > lagna, first house describes the nativity, unless one is doing > > > > certain kinds of horary of course! > > > > > > > > Only when demonstrably jyotish can manage to get very high > > scores > > > on > > > > this concrete, ordinary reality front would there be any point > > in > > > > playing in the sand of unverifiable Big Reality! > > > > > > > > I do not intend to drive the hoard of pleasure-seekers off the > > > > beach, but perhaps am just scared of Tsunamis which hit closer > > to > > > > the beaches! > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > > > stark > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > > should > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change > > over > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish > > to > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest > > in > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the > base > > > for > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > important > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > operate > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but > > not > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > animal > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > > could > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > concerns > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > > > > lagoons. > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > > specifics? > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > mutate > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > transcend > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > regards > > > > > krishnan > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different > > view > > > > of > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > > associated > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > > > > logic > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some > sort > > of > > > > a > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and > > this > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > > possible > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid > > of > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in > > the > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students > (us!) > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just > in > > > > some > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > > tangible > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > > education, > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > > > one's > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > > surmised > > > > and > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, > > how > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, > > what > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my > > last > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > Jyotishis, > > > > if > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > figure > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > obvious, > > so > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > ambiguity: > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > > doubted > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they > > say > > > in > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would > be: > > I > > > > can > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > > gender, > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > political > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some > > of > > > > the > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we > > have > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > > RELISH > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 RRji, Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of a scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and also not lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of becoming too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you said we are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to devote to a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not mean that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for later research on water divination but it is used for water divination alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are there to question findings, applications. Socrates would have been spared his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead us to new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may sound or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply going through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world and like prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research for the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have no respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand applications and be happy. If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end and if we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of who knows, a far more beautiful world. Nalini , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb wrote: > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and Nalini) in > one message, if I may. > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the potential or > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us know. It > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there might lie > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who are > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand at the > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a certain > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as long as > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding about the > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non-research' > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to be fair > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less knowledgeable and > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or raising > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or not easily > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth etc), are > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their intrinsic > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things such as > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only astrology > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the unverifiable > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so confidently > described as if there is some formula to identify these raises some > concerns. > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a science. But > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like scientists > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand that > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions should not > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to answer > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect me to > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most hard- > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic curiosity of > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond the > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. Just > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the Yarrow stick > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to do with > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times would > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. Wells, > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous classic > novel. > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and so on > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that shrinks > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I refuse to > take what is described in there as absolute proof that someone has > done all the homework and validated every single combination given > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady ground of > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That sort of > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or what > science was built upon. > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking into > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated again and > again for the benefit not of those with already firm convictions, > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand -- perhaps > for the first time. > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation so > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. However, > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, particularly > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that are > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors and > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- whether they > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not mean > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out of > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and dedicated to > serving others through it are professionals and must maintain the > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > RR > > > , vattem krishnan > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has everything to > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the(right) hands > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has great > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned though > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result we > discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives not > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not that > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on the > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > krishnan > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta devatas why > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not some > two > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and water > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer any > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual gifts > or > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take place, > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s query reg > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of priority > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark materialistc > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally materialistic, > people > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to provide > them > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that astrology > can > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual emanicipation and > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does jyotish > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the yokes > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out side the > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were doing > > among jyotish and planets. > > Regards > > Nalini > > > > , vattem krishnan > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > stark > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about should > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change over > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish to > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest in > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base > for > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > important > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > operate > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but > not > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > animal > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics could > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > concerns > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > > lagoons. > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > specifics? > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > mutate > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend > > takes generations to pass. > > > regards > > > krishnan > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different > view > > of > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > associated > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > > logic > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort > of > > a > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and > this > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > possible > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid of > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in the > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in > > some > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and tangible > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > education, > > > etc. > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > one's > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often surmised > > and > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, how > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, what > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my last > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? Jyotishis, > > if > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > figure > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, > so > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political affiliation! > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they say > in > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: I > > can > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the gender, > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and political > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some of > > the > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we have > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > RELISH > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Hi all, I found this topic very interesting..in my humble opinion: Jyotish is a means and not an end in itself..we can glorify it all we want to but at the end of the day this group has 4599 members on date of which my guess is 90% are here to get answers to their immediate concerns about the problems they face in this birth...and unless those are addressed accurately Jyotish can never be put on the same pedestal as science although we all would like to see that happen. Science has a goal, what is the goal of Jyotish?? I find most astrologers egoistic about their abilities unlike doctors who never feel bad about someone getting a second opinion, most infact suggest it in serious cases.. If the experienced astrologers of this group want, they can create a expert panel, study a pool of horoscopes, make their predictions, match their findings and follow-up on their clients for a pre- determined period of time to see what percentage of their findings have materialzed.. first solve the problems/trials and tribulations of this birth for individuals or maybe even for nations and then decide whether other things should be within the scope of the study or not. If astrologers can be made accountable for their statements, their credibility as a breed would increase. My apologies beforehand in case I have hurt anyone's sentiments about astrology, that is not my intention. I am a layman frequently confused by astrologers :-) with regards, Shantala , "auromirra19" <nalini2818 wrote: > > RRji, > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of a > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and also not > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of becoming > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you said we > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to devote to > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not mean > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for later > research on water divination but it is used for water divination > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are there to > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been spared > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead us to > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may sound > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply going > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world and like > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research for > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have no > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > applications and be happy. > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end and if > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of who > knows, a far more beautiful world. > Nalini > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > wrote: > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and Nalini) in > > one message, if I may. > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the potential > or > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us know. > It > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there might > lie > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who are > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand at the > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a > certain > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as long as > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding about > the > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non-research' > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to be > fair > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less knowledgeable and > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or raising > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or not > easily > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth etc), are > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > intrinsic > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things such as > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only astrology > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the unverifiable > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > confidently > > described as if there is some formula to identify these raises > some > > concerns. > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a science. But > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > scientists > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand that > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions should > not > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to > answer > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect me to > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most hard- > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic curiosity > of > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond the > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. Just > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the Yarrow > stick > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to do > with > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times would > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. Wells, > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous > classic > > novel. > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and so on > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that > shrinks > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I refuse > to > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that someone has > > done all the homework and validated every single combination given > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady ground of > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That sort > of > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or what > > science was built upon. > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking into > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated again and > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm convictions, > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand -- > perhaps > > for the first time. > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation so > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. > However, > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, particularly > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that are > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors and > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- whether > they > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not mean > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out of > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and dedicated to > > serving others through it are professionals and must maintain the > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > RR > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has everything to > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the(right) > hands > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has great > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned > though > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result we > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives not > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not that > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on the > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > > krishnan > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta devatas > why > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not some > > two > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and > water > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer any > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual gifts > > or > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take > place, > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s query > reg > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > priority > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark materialistc > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally materialistic, > > people > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to provide > > them > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that astrology > > can > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual emanicipation > and > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does jyotish > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the > yokes > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out side > the > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were doing > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > Regards > > > Nalini > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > > stark > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > should > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change > over > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish > to > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest > in > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base > > for > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > important > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > operate > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but > > not > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > animal > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > could > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > concerns > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > > > lagoons. > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > specifics? > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > mutate > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > regards > > > > krishnan > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different > > view > > > of > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > associated > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > > > logic > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort > > of > > > a > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and > > this > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > possible > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid > of > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in > the > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in > > > some > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > tangible > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > education, > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > > one's > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > surmised > > > and > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, > how > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, > what > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my > last > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > Jyotishis, > > > if > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > figure > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, > > so > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > affiliation! > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > doubted > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they > say > > in > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: > I > > > can > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > gender, > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > political > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some > of > > > the > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we > have > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > RELISH > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > RELISH > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? 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Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 I hope I did not say or mean that it is a rat race, whatever that reference to was in your post :-) Research on water divination or oil divination in certain oil-rich countries might not be such a bad idea actually :-) In a sense each jyotishi when giving a reading is doing research and testing the system, since this is the first time this is being done. After all the classics are considered to be 'revealed' vidya and not researched, like science is. Another reason why jyotish, as we know it, should not automatically be lumped with science as some hastily do -- as if being a science somehow is going to raise the standards or acceptability of astrology higher than whatever it is -- and I do not mean in a group where everyone is converted already! This would be a biased sample :-) As far as those who have some inherent fear, loathing for research, it is their choice, of course. To each his favorite poison as they say! I notice that no one is even touching my very simple question about such obvious things as gender, religion, race not being that easily discerned through astrology, in a blinded setting! RR , "auromirra19" <nalini2818 wrote: > > RRji, > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of a > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and also not > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of becoming > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you said we > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to devote to > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not mean > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for later > research on water divination but it is used for water divination > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are there to > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been spared > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead us to > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may sound > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply going > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world and like > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research for > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have no > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > applications and be happy. > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end and if > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of who > knows, a far more beautiful world. > Nalini > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > wrote: > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and Nalini) in > > one message, if I may. > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the potential > or > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us know. > It > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there might > lie > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who are > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand at the > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a > certain > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as long as > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding about > the > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non-research' > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to be > fair > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less knowledgeable and > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or raising > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or not > easily > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth etc), are > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > intrinsic > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things such as > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only astrology > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the unverifiable > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > confidently > > described as if there is some formula to identify these raises > some > > concerns. > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a science. But > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > scientists > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand that > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions should > not > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to > answer > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect me to > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most hard- > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic curiosity > of > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond the > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. Just > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the Yarrow > stick > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to do > with > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times would > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. Wells, > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous > classic > > novel. > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and so on > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that > shrinks > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I refuse > to > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that someone has > > done all the homework and validated every single combination given > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady ground of > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That sort > of > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or what > > science was built upon. > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking into > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated again and > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm convictions, > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand -- > perhaps > > for the first time. > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation so > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. > However, > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, particularly > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that are > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors and > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- whether > they > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not mean > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out of > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and dedicated to > > serving others through it are professionals and must maintain the > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > RR > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has everything to > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the(right) > hands > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has great > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned > though > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result we > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives not > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not that > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on the > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > > krishnan > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta devatas > why > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not some > > two > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and > water > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer any > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual gifts > > or > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take > place, > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s query > reg > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > priority > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark materialistc > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally materialistic, > > people > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to provide > > them > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that astrology > > can > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual emanicipation > and > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does jyotish > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the > yokes > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out side > the > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were doing > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > Regards > > > Nalini > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > > stark > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > should > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change > over > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish > to > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest > in > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base > > for > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > important > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > operate > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but > > not > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > animal > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > could > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > concerns > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > > > lagoons. > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > specifics? > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > mutate > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > regards > > > > krishnan > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different > > view > > > of > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > associated > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > > > logic > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort > > of > > > a > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and > > this > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > possible > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid > of > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in > the > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in > > > some > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > tangible > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > education, > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > > one's > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > surmised > > > and > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, > how > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, > what > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my > last > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > Jyotishis, > > > if > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > figure > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, > > so > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > affiliation! > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > doubted > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they > say > > in > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: > I > > > can > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > gender, > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > political > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some > of > > > the > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we > have > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > RELISH > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > RELISH > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? 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Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Shantala ji, You raise some very good points, and some practical and some impractical suggestions :-) If astrologers are so egoistic (some interpret that as being defensive and insecure, as in taking up challenges like that) kind of like medical doctors were at one point in time many years ago when a second opinion was not as easily accepted. I have experienced that generation of doctors so I speak from first hand experience! The modern astrologers, particularly the younger generation (20-40) are more tolerant and aware of the shortcomings and also because many of these are otherwise professionals, are gainfully employed and productive even outside of astrological area of expertise, have strong educational background (and not just in karmakand and other priestly skills -- not that that is a disqualification of any sort) and therefore less likely to have an axe to grind. Unfortunately, most of them do not have too much time to really build a strong castle for astrology. The astrology professionals, earning a living from astrology, are capable but must work hard at astrology to keep the lamp burning and so also have no time. That is the impractical part! Long ago, some 20 years ago, western tropical astrologers had many such attempts at quizzes and blind testing, like in the Hamilton Project and several others recorded in Nias and Eysenck's masterful presentation (Astrology science or superstition). With the jyotish scene in flux with multiple variables being tossed around, the dust has yet to settle a bit before such an organized attempt would be possible as you suggest. Until then, let us all honestly and accurately record what we see and let us ask questions, even if those cause discomfort to someone essentially good and even elderly. This would not be disrespectful in my opinion. Not asking would! RR , "shantala_pandit" <shantala_pandit wrote: > > Hi all, > I found this topic very interesting..in my humble opinion: > Jyotish is a means and not an end in itself..we can glorify it all > we want to but at the end of the day this group has 4599 members on > date of which my guess is 90% are here to get answers to their > immediate concerns about the problems they face in this birth...and > unless those are addressed accurately Jyotish can never be put on > the same pedestal as science although we all would like to see that > happen. Science has a goal, what is the goal of Jyotish?? > > I find most astrologers egoistic about their abilities unlike > doctors who never feel bad about someone getting a second opinion, > most infact suggest it in serious cases.. > If the experienced astrologers of this group want, they can create a > expert panel, study a pool of horoscopes, make their predictions, > match their findings and follow-up on their clients for a pre- > determined period of time to see what percentage of their findings > have materialzed.. first solve the problems/trials and tribulations > of this birth for individuals or maybe even for nations and then > decide whether other things should be within the scope of the study > or not. > > If astrologers can be made accountable for their statements, their > credibility as a breed would increase. > My apologies beforehand in case I have hurt anyone's sentiments > about astrology, that is not my intention. I am a layman frequently > confused by astrologers :-) > with regards, > Shantala > > , "auromirra19" > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > RRji, > > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of a > > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and also > not > > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms > > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of becoming > > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you said > we > > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to devote > to > > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not > mean > > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for > later > > research on water divination but it is used for water divination > > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are there > to > > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been spared > > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead us > to > > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may sound > > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply going > > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world and > like > > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research for > > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have no > > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > > applications and be happy. > > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end and > if > > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of who > > knows, a far more beautiful world. > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and Nalini) > in > > > one message, if I may. > > > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the > potential > > or > > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us > know. > > It > > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there might > > lie > > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who are > > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand at > the > > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a > > certain > > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as long > as > > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding about > > the > > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non- research' > > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to be > > fair > > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less knowledgeable > and > > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or > raising > > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or not > > easily > > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth etc), > are > > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > > intrinsic > > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things such as > > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only astrology > > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the unverifiable > > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > > confidently > > > described as if there is some formula to identify these raises > > some > > > concerns. > > > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a science. > But > > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > > scientists > > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand > that > > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions should > > not > > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to > > answer > > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect me > to > > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most hard- > > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic > curiosity > > of > > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond the > > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. Just > > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the Yarrow > > stick > > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to do > > with > > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times > would > > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. > Wells, > > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous > > classic > > > novel. > > > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and so on > > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that > > shrinks > > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I > refuse > > to > > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that someone > has > > > done all the homework and validated every single combination > given > > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady ground > of > > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That > sort > > of > > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or what > > > science was built upon. > > > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking into > > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated again > and > > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm > convictions, > > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand -- > > perhaps > > > for the first time. > > > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation so > > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. > > However, > > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, > particularly > > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that are > > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors and > > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- whether > > they > > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not mean > > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out of > > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and dedicated > to > > > serving others through it are professionals and must maintain > the > > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has everything > to > > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the(right) > > hands > > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has great > > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned > > though > > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other > > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result we > > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives > not > > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not > that > > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on the > > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third > > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta devatas > > why > > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not > some > > > two > > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and > > water > > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer > any > > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual > gifts > > > or > > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take > > place, > > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s query > > reg > > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > > priority > > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark > materialistc > > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally materialistic, > > > people > > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to provide > > > them > > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that > astrology > > > can > > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual emanicipation > > and > > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does > jyotish > > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the > > yokes > > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out side > > the > > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were > doing > > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > > Regards > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > > > stark > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > > should > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change > > over > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish > > to > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every > body > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where > as > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less > interest > > in > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the > base > > > for > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > > important > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > > operate > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured > but > > > not > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > > animal > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not > for > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > > could > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > > concerns > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for > chasing > > > > lagoons. > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > > specifics? > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > > mutate > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > transcend > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > regards > > > > > krishnan > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different > > > view > > > > of > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > > associated > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand > the > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, > including > > > > logic > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some > sort > > > of > > > > a > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and > > > this > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > > possible > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and > its > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid > > of > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in > > the > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students > (us!) > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just > in > > > > some > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > > tangible > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > > education, > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > > > one's > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > > surmised > > > > and > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, > > how > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, > > what > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my > > last > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > Jyotishis, > > > > if > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > > figure > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > obvious, > > > so > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > ambiguity: > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > > doubted > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they > > say > > > in > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would > be: > > I > > > > can > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > > gender, > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > political > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as > some > > of > > > > the > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we > > have > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > > RELISH > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > RELISH > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 I feel that science what the job it has to do and can do is doing either through biochemical means or by other means for mitigating the rce and gender politics.In Haryana we do not need feel girl child.Else where we do not spare other than red skin.what the world looks for resources that is how countries with oil production have more importance.In Jyotish we wish to supplement to sciences,by telling what was revealed in classics was ignored and several races that disappered and on the way can be pu back into nature system by values.So Astrology is looking for those ears who have patience to listen to us and respect.Scinces no doubt felt for the need of spirtuality and in this direction jyotish can aspire to become a development sciences.Jyotishi,in his own humblesness is yelling that in no means jyotish is not to be underscore.If some body cound promote futurology why not this value based science.whether it is science or not it is less of consequences.If others like psychology could be given due regard why not our field.Then if this slightest encouragement is given jyotishis can find time to bring balance in Nature by talking more about races,gender and so on and so forth.we have the quest but we are distrubed at the mad rush to things of immediate importance.so we burn our energies in setting the houses in peace and in extinguishing the flames that we want to be on to the top at the cost of anything.probably to wish for some thing is not wrong but wish to get by any means is to distrub the Nature.we are ceratinly into it but need to think how the world lies in races,genders and in apolitical approaches. "we shall over come one day" is not bad to contend as of today if people can be made live in peace in their own abodes through all of us,the rest to can be made a reality by our delving into areas and supplement to the sciences krishnan rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: I hope I did not say or mean that it is a rat race, whatever that reference to was in your post :-) Research on water divination or oil divination in certain oil-rich countries might not be such a bad idea actually :-) In a sense each jyotishi when giving a reading is doing research and testing the system, since this is the first time this is being done. After all the classics are considered to be 'revealed' vidya and not researched, like science is. Another reason why jyotish, as we know it, should not automatically be lumped with science as some hastily do -- as if being a science somehow is going to raise the standards or acceptability of astrology higher than whatever it is -- and I do not mean in a group where everyone is converted already! This would be a biased sample :-) As far as those who have some inherent fear, loathing for research, it is their choice, of course. To each his favorite poison as they say! I notice that no one is even touching my very simple question about such obvious things as gender, religion, race not being that easily discerned through astrology, in a blinded setting! RR , "auromirra19" <nalini2818 wrote: > > RRji, > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of a > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and also not > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of becoming > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you said we > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to devote to > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not mean > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for later > research on water divination but it is used for water divination > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are there to > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been spared > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead us to > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may sound > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply going > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world and like > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research for > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have no > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > applications and be happy. > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end and if > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of who > knows, a far more beautiful world. > Nalini > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > wrote: > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and Nalini) in > > one message, if I may. > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the potential > or > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us know. > It > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there might > lie > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who are > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand at the > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a > certain > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as long as > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding about > the > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non-research' > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to be > fair > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less knowledgeable and > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or raising > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or not > easily > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth etc), are > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > intrinsic > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things such as > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only astrology > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the unverifiable > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > confidently > > described as if there is some formula to identify these raises > some > > concerns. > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a science. But > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > scientists > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand that > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions should > not > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to > answer > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect me to > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most hard- > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic curiosity > of > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond the > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. Just > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the Yarrow > stick > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to do > with > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times would > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. Wells, > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous > classic > > novel. > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and so on > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that > shrinks > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I refuse > to > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that someone has > > done all the homework and validated every single combination given > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady ground of > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That sort > of > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or what > > science was built upon. > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking into > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated again and > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm convictions, > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand -- > perhaps > > for the first time. > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation so > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. > However, > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, particularly > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that are > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors and > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- whether > they > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not mean > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out of > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and dedicated to > > serving others through it are professionals and must maintain the > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > RR > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has everything to > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the(right) > hands > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has great > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned > though > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result we > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives not > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not that > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on the > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > > krishnan > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta devatas > why > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not some > > two > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and > water > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer any > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual gifts > > or > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take > place, > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s query > reg > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > priority > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark materialistc > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally materialistic, > > people > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to provide > > them > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that astrology > > can > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual emanicipation > and > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does jyotish > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the > yokes > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out side > the > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were doing > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > Regards > > > Nalini > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > > stark > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > should > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change > over > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish > to > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest > in > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the base > > for > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > important > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > operate > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but > > not > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > animal > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > could > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > concerns > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > > > lagoons. > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > specifics? > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > mutate > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political transcend > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > regards > > > > krishnan > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different > > view > > > of > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > associated > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > > > logic > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some sort > > of > > > a > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and > > this > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > possible > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid > of > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in > the > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students (us!) > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just in > > > some > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > tangible > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > education, > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > > one's > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > surmised > > > and > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, > how > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, > what > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my > last > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > Jyotishis, > > > if > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > figure > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so obvious, > > so > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and ambiguity: > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > affiliation! > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > doubted > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they > say > > in > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would be: > I > > > can > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > gender, > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > political > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some > of > > > the > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we > have > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > RELISH > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > RELISH > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology Visit your group "" on the web. Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 when we are in making cross postings(passive) thoughts,words get and sound emotions to make humility as feigned? rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: Prernaji, Since you wrote back, it would be disrespectful of me if I do not state the following in all honesty. Please bear with my inability to understand, and kindly elaborate: How did astrology create immortals, based on Yogananda ji's account? and for the 'war' scenarion, one does not need Astrology, but God, as Bhagwat Gita beautifully illustrates (in an identical situation faced by Arjuna)! As far as humility is concerned, there is true humility and feigned or veiled humility. Most people confuse those! I think neither has a place when we are discussing something through words and thoughts, and not emotions! RR , "ashtt_family" <ashtt_family wrote: > > > If I try to comprehend the random thoughts I have in mind about > astrology, all I can say is if one goes to the war unprepared he > might lose, due to the shock of the size of the enemy(or the gravity > of the situations in real life) since he doesnt look or even try to > look at the bigger picture. All he is able to see is the problem > thrown into his face without a warning. A large balloon near the nose > so only the balloon is visible. However if he has been guided and > warned properly he can easily carry a safety pin. > > One needs to keep the patience and cool and steer clear of aggression > and pride at small triumphs... keeping in mind the bigger picture and > the the humility intact. But honestly speaking, humilty leaves us > when we need it the most. I often fret and fuss and get short > tempered only to realise a second later "what for?". But by that time > words have left the mouth. Patience requires practice... lots of it. > Your example of Shri Yognanda only affirms that astrology can create > immortals too. > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > wrote: > > > > Prernaji, this is exactly the type of statement I was talking about > > in a recently posted message. I am not sure if statements such as > > the one you quoted describe a well researched and experienced/known > > reality or just a jyotishi's disclaimer! > > > > We can fall back upon our religious core and simply say that that > is > > what stated in our scriptures and even Professor B.V. Raman stated > > so very prominently in his Magazine and so the case is closed. It > > must be true! > > > > The opposite stance is where human beings, albeit larger than all > of > > us, but humans nonetheless because they had to be born and had to > > die -- like Yogananda have written that at certain times, he went > > ahead and made successful those ventures that jyotishis had told > him > > would fail. Yogananda further states that in those instances where > > he 'opposed the planetary forces' [sic] the tasks turned out to be > > more difficult than usual. If a great one like Yogananda felt the > > resistance and opposition of the astrological influences, surely it > > is not a passive indication but a more active sort of force which > > astrological factors describe or represent. This 'force' though > > surmountable in most cases of ordinary people could actually > > be 'compelling' and not just indicating. > > > > I do not know what the situation is behind the scenes in how > planets > > act or indicate and so on -- but the above are hints that there > lies > > a much more interesting mechanism behind astrology. It is like the > > Wizard of Oz where, actually the Wizard might turn out to be > simpler > > than the puppet, astrology itself. And I don't mean God, as one > > would be tempted to jump to the conclusion of :-) > > > > , "ashtt_family" > > <ashtt_family@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sorry for interrupting the conversation, but that is why > > astrologers > > > say "Planets impel, they do not compel", so that the advise > seeker > > > has a feeling that it still might be in his hands(even if its an > > > illusion). > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I think, being brutally frank here -- it is safer to play > > in 'sand' > > > > because it can take all shapes and form and is satisfying and > no > > > one > > > > remembers or need to remember what was made! > > > > > > > > The reality of concrete and down to earth material reality is > > more > > > > difficult because what does not happen as promised is right in > > your > > > > face. > > > > > > > > Who really comes back to give feedback to the jyotishi whether > > it > > > > was indeed Shiva or Vishnu or Kartikaye that turned out to be > > the > > > > Ishta Devta or whether the nativity did get born as a king or a > > > > sheep in the next birth. > > > > > > > > But, it is hard to explain away and hide from the reality that > > > > the 'promised' marriage did not take place, or the job did not > > > > materialize. > > > > > > > > These are tiny things on a grand scale but are on a short time > > > scale > > > > and hard to avoid little tests of jyotish! And these are of > > great > > > > immediate importance to the nativity and the nativity is the > > > > bridegroom in this marriage called a jyotish reading, because > > the > > > > lagna, first house describes the nativity, unless one is doing > > > > certain kinds of horary of course! > > > > > > > > Only when demonstrably jyotish can manage to get very high > > scores > > > on > > > > this concrete, ordinary reality front would there be any point > > in > > > > playing in the sand of unverifiable Big Reality! > > > > > > > > I do not intend to drive the hoard of pleasure-seekers off the > > > > beach, but perhaps am just scared of Tsunamis which hit closer > > to > > > > the beaches! > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > > > stark > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > > should > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change > > over > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish > > to > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every body > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where as > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less interest > > in > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the > base > > > for > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > important > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > operate > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured but > > not > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > animal > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not for > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > > could > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > concerns > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for chasing > > > > lagoons. > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > > specifics? > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > mutate > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > transcend > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > regards > > > > > krishnan > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different > > view > > > > of > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > > associated > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand the > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, including > > > > logic > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some > sort > > of > > > > a > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and > > this > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > > possible > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and its > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid > > of > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in > > the > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students > (us!) > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just > in > > > > some > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > > tangible > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > > education, > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > > > one's > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > > surmised > > > > and > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, > > how > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, > > what > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my > > last > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > Jyotishis, > > > > if > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > figure > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > obvious, > > so > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > ambiguity: > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > > doubted > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they > > say > > > in > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would > be: > > I > > > > can > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > > gender, > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > political > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as some > > of > > > > the > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we > > have > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > > RELISH > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology Visit your group "" on the web. Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 that was too deep and unfathomable to me, I am afraid. I have no clue what you meant :-) RR , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > when we are in making cross postings(passive) thoughts,words get and sound emotions to make humility as feigned? > > rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: Prernaji, > > Since you wrote back, it would be disrespectful of me if I do not > state the following in all honesty. > > Please bear with my inability to understand, and kindly elaborate: > How did astrology create immortals, based on Yogananda ji's account? > > and for the 'war' scenarion, one does not need Astrology, but God, > as Bhagwat Gita beautifully illustrates (in an identical situation > faced by Arjuna)! > > As far as humility is concerned, there is true humility and feigned > or veiled humility. Most people confuse those! I think neither has a > place when we are discussing something through words and thoughts, > and not emotions! > > RR > > > , "ashtt_family" > <ashtt_family@> wrote: > > > > > > If I try to comprehend the random thoughts I have in mind about > > astrology, all I can say is if one goes to the war unprepared he > > might lose, due to the shock of the size of the enemy(or the > gravity > > of the situations in real life) since he doesnt look or even try > to > > look at the bigger picture. All he is able to see is the problem > > thrown into his face without a warning. A large balloon near the > nose > > so only the balloon is visible. However if he has been guided and > > warned properly he can easily carry a safety pin. > > > > One needs to keep the patience and cool and steer clear of > aggression > > and pride at small triumphs... keeping in mind the bigger picture > and > > the the humility intact. But honestly speaking, humilty leaves us > > when we need it the most. I often fret and fuss and get short > > tempered only to realise a second later "what for?". But by that > time > > words have left the mouth. Patience requires practice... lots of > it. > > Your example of Shri Yognanda only affirms that astrology can > create > > immortals too. > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Prernaji, this is exactly the type of statement I was talking > about > > > in a recently posted message. I am not sure if statements such > as > > > the one you quoted describe a well researched and > experienced/known > > > reality or just a jyotishi's disclaimer! > > > > > > We can fall back upon our religious core and simply say that > that > > is > > > what stated in our scriptures and even Professor B.V. Raman > stated > > > so very prominently in his Magazine and so the case is closed. > It > > > must be true! > > > > > > The opposite stance is where human beings, albeit larger than > all > > of > > > us, but humans nonetheless because they had to be born and had > to > > > die -- like Yogananda have written that at certain times, he > went > > > ahead and made successful those ventures that jyotishis had told > > him > > > would fail. Yogananda further states that in those instances > where > > > he 'opposed the planetary forces' [sic] the tasks turned out to > be > > > more difficult than usual. If a great one like Yogananda felt > the > > > resistance and opposition of the astrological influences, surely > it > > > is not a passive indication but a more active sort of force > which > > > astrological factors describe or represent. This 'force' though > > > surmountable in most cases of ordinary people could actually > > > be 'compelling' and not just indicating. > > > > > > I do not know what the situation is behind the scenes in how > > planets > > > act or indicate and so on -- but the above are hints that there > > lies > > > a much more interesting mechanism behind astrology. It is like > the > > > Wizard of Oz where, actually the Wizard might turn out to be > > simpler > > > than the puppet, astrology itself. And I don't mean God, as one > > > would be tempted to jump to the conclusion of :-) > > > > > > , "ashtt_family" > > > <ashtt_family@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for interrupting the conversation, but that is why > > > astrologers > > > > say "Planets impel, they do not compel", so that the advise > > seeker > > > > has a feeling that it still might be in his hands(even if its > an > > > > illusion). > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > <rrgb@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think, being brutally frank here -- it is safer to play > > > in 'sand' > > > > > because it can take all shapes and form and is satisfying > and > > no > > > > one > > > > > remembers or need to remember what was made! > > > > > > > > > > The reality of concrete and down to earth material reality > is > > > more > > > > > difficult because what does not happen as promised is right > in > > > your > > > > > face. > > > > > > > > > > Who really comes back to give feedback to the jyotishi > whether > > > it > > > > > was indeed Shiva or Vishnu or Kartikaye that turned out to > be > > > the > > > > > Ishta Devta or whether the nativity did get born as a king > or a > > > > > sheep in the next birth. > > > > > > > > > > But, it is hard to explain away and hide from the reality > that > > > > > the 'promised' marriage did not take place, or the job did > not > > > > > materialize. > > > > > > > > > > These are tiny things on a grand scale but are on a short > time > > > > scale > > > > > and hard to avoid little tests of jyotish! And these are of > > > great > > > > > immediate importance to the nativity and the nativity is the > > > > > bridegroom in this marriage called a jyotish reading, > because > > > the > > > > > lagna, first house describes the nativity, unless one is > doing > > > > > certain kinds of horary of course! > > > > > > > > > > Only when demonstrably jyotish can manage to get very high > > > scores > > > > on > > > > > this concrete, ordinary reality front would there be any > point > > > in > > > > > playing in the sand of unverifiable Big Reality! > > > > > > > > > > I do not intend to drive the hoard of pleasure-seekers off > the > > > > > beach, but perhaps am just scared of Tsunamis which hit > closer > > > to > > > > > the beaches! > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers > to"Such > > > > stark > > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > > > should > > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this > change > > > over > > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for > jyotish > > > to > > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every > body > > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where > as > > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less > interest > > > in > > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the > > base > > > > for > > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > > important > > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > > operate > > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured > but > > > not > > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective > to > > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > > animal > > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not > for > > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > > > could > > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > > concerns > > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for > chasing > > > > > lagoons. > > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness > but > > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > > > specifics? > > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > > mutate > > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > > transcend > > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > > regards > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very > different > > > view > > > > > of > > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > > > associated > > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand > the > > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, > including > > > > > logic > > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some > > sort > > > of > > > > > a > > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us > and > > > this > > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > > > possible > > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and > its > > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the > aid > > > of > > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish > in > > > the > > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students > > (us!) > > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not > just > > in > > > > > some > > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > > > tangible > > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > > > education, > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: > natures, > > > > one's > > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > > > surmised > > > > > and > > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or > not, > > > how > > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last > birth, > > > what > > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in > my > > > last > > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > > Jyotishis, > > > > > if > > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > > figure > > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > > obvious, > > > so > > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > > ambiguity: > > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > > > doubted > > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as > they > > > say > > > > in > > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would > > be: > > > I > > > > > can > > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > > > gender, > > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > > political > > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as > some > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that > we > > > have > > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY > AND > > > > RELISH > > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > > of > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Let Jyotishis try to be in the garb of Psychology only for purpose convincing people and advance jyotish.Thre subject has respect even without being a science or otherwise.Once jyotish was in steep/and in heights and away from common man.Now it is in plains making people to try this recourse too.This itself has to promote not to get tired and advance further without looking for steepness.First of all let all of us start thinking of setting milestones to aspire and genarations to think first(permit with emotions?) to be able to do something for future krishnan rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: Just to clarify, this is not about science vs astrology! It is not also about what astrology deserves or what its birthright is. Psychology has had to struggle very hard as also sociology which were considered soft sciences and even now are by some hard-boiled individuals! Psychology worked hard by collecting and presenting its data and observations in a way which impresses upon the readers and serious listeners that it is not some hairy-fairy loose thinking. Astrology and astrologers would have to do the same. Mind you it is not necessary, but then astrologers would have to stop being so in awe of science and keep on calling their craft science. They will get more mileage by actually showing it and presenting it so and then letting the audience figure it out themselves. Psychology has a much better chance of convincing people and it still is struggling. Astrology has a much steeper climb comparatively. Sure enough, someone would pipe up and say, "But we do not have to prove anything to anyone!". I say, that is a good start towards regaining self-worth and independence! Go with that thought! RR , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > I feel that science what the job it has to do and can do is doing either through biochemical means or by other means for mitigating the rce and gender politics.In Haryana we do not need feel girl child.Else where we do not spare other than red skin.what the world looks for resources that is how countries with oil production have more importance.In Jyotish we wish to supplement to sciences,by telling what was revealed in classics was ignored and several races that disappered and on the way can be pu back into nature system by values.So Astrology is looking for those ears who have patience to listen to us and respect.Scinces no doubt felt for the need of spirtuality and in this direction jyotish can aspire to become a development sciences.Jyotishi,in his own humblesness is yelling that in no means jyotish is not to be underscore.If some body cound promote futurology why not this value based science.whether it is science or not it is less of consequences.If others like psychology could > be given due regard why not our field.Then if this slightest encouragement is given jyotishis can find time to bring balance in Nature by talking more about races,gender and so on and so forth.we have the quest but we are distrubed at the mad rush to things of immediate importance.so we burn our energies in setting the houses in peace and in extinguishing the flames that we want to be on to the top at the cost of anything.probably to wish for some thing is not wrong but wish to get by any means is to distrub the Nature.we are ceratinly into it but need to think how the world lies in races,genders and in apolitical approaches. > "we shall over come one day" is not bad to contend as of today if people can be made live in peace in their own abodes through all of us,the rest to can be made a reality by our delving into areas and supplement to the sciences > krishnan > > rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: > I hope I did not say or mean that it is a rat race, whatever that > reference to was in your post :-) > > Research on water divination or oil divination in certain oil-rich > countries might not be such a bad idea actually :-) > > In a sense each jyotishi when giving a reading is doing research and > testing the system, since this is the first time this is being done. > After all the classics are considered to be 'revealed' vidya and not > researched, like science is. Another reason why jyotish, as we know > it, should not automatically be lumped with science as some hastily > do -- as if being a science somehow is going to raise the standards > or acceptability of astrology higher than whatever it is -- and I do > not mean in a group where everyone is converted already! This would > be a biased sample :-) > > As far as those who have some inherent fear, loathing for research, > it is their choice, of course. To each his favorite poison as they > say! > > I notice that no one is even touching my very simple question about > such obvious things as gender, religion, race not being that easily > discerned through astrology, in a blinded setting! > RR > > , "auromirra19" > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > RRji, > > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of a > > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and also > not > > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms > > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of becoming > > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you said > we > > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to devote > to > > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not > mean > > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for > later > > research on water divination but it is used for water divination > > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are there > to > > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been spared > > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead us > to > > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may sound > > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply going > > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world and > like > > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research for > > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have no > > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > > applications and be happy. > > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end and > if > > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of who > > knows, a far more beautiful world. > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and Nalini) > in > > > one message, if I may. > > > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the > potential > > or > > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us > know. > > It > > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there might > > lie > > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who are > > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand at > the > > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a > > certain > > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as long > as > > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding about > > the > > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non- research' > > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to be > > fair > > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less knowledgeable > and > > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or > raising > > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or not > > easily > > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth etc), > are > > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > > intrinsic > > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things such as > > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only astrology > > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the unverifiable > > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > > confidently > > > described as if there is some formula to identify these raises > > some > > > concerns. > > > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a science. > But > > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > > scientists > > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand > that > > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions should > > not > > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to > > answer > > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect me > to > > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most hard- > > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic > curiosity > > of > > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond the > > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. Just > > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the Yarrow > > stick > > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to do > > with > > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times > would > > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. > Wells, > > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous > > classic > > > novel. > > > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and so on > > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that > > shrinks > > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I > refuse > > to > > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that someone > has > > > done all the homework and validated every single combination > given > > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady ground > of > > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That > sort > > of > > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or what > > > science was built upon. > > > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking into > > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated again > and > > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm > convictions, > > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand -- > > perhaps > > > for the first time. > > > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation so > > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. > > However, > > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, > particularly > > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that are > > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors and > > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- whether > > they > > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not mean > > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out of > > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and dedicated > to > > > serving others through it are professionals and must maintain > the > > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has everything > to > > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the(right) > > hands > > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has great > > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned > > though > > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other > > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result we > > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives > not > > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not > that > > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on the > > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third > > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta devatas > > why > > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not > some > > > two > > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and > > water > > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer > any > > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual > gifts > > > or > > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take > > place, > > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s query > > reg > > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > > priority > > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark > materialistc > > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally materialistic, > > > people > > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to provide > > > them > > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that > astrology > > > can > > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual emanicipation > > and > > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does > jyotish > > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the > > yokes > > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out side > > the > > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were > doing > > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > > Regards > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > > > stark > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > > should > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change > > over > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish > > to > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every > body > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where > as > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less > interest > > in > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the > base > > > for > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > > important > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > > operate > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured > but > > > not > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > > animal > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not > for > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > > could > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > > concerns > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for > chasing > > > > lagoons. > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > > specifics? > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > > mutate > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > transcend > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > regards > > > > > krishnan > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different > > > view > > > > of > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > > associated > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand > the > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, > including > > > > logic > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some > sort > > > of > > > > a > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and > > > this > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > > possible > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and > its > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid > > of > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in > > the > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students > (us!) > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just > in > > > > some > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > > tangible > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > > education, > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > > > one's > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > > surmised > > > > and > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, > > how > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, > > what > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my > > last > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > Jyotishis, > > > > if > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > > figure > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > obvious, > > > so > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > ambiguity: > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > > doubted > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they > > say > > > in > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would > be: > > I > > > > can > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > > gender, > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > political > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as > some > > of > > > > the > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we > > have > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > > RELISH > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > RELISH > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology Visit your group "" on the web. Relax. Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Hi, I would respond to the latter part : I have known astrologers (professional or otherwise, i.e whether astrology is their vocation or avocation) elsewhere where after a free reading ask for feed backs: would you believe it?As for accountability I thought I had heard the last of it when I had got out of the bank, well go ahead consumerise astrology, create accountability, consumer forums, grievance redressal bureaux, ombudsman !!!!! one can consider oneself blessed if confused by astrologers, imagine being confused by doctors( situations where life matters) which would certainly have life(less)?long repurcussions. I dont mean disrespect to the medical community whose hackles I do not want to raise but each profession/ field cannot be condemned outright. Each has memebers on both sides of the line. Why does not jyotish have a goal? Can it not help in identifying/making a SWOT analysis, of oneself, analyse put 2 an 2 together and arrive at a new You = 5? Can it not make u a better person to live with and understand why someone behaves like how he does?understand and accept it? and generally make life more worthy of living? Well astrology is not only a science but also an art. No hurt or disrespect intended please Nalini Nalini , "shantala_pandit" <shantala_pandit wrote: > > Hi all, > I found this topic very interesting..in my humble opinion: > Jyotish is a means and not an end in itself..we can glorify it all > we want to but at the end of the day this group has 4599 members on > date of which my guess is 90% are here to get answers to their > immediate concerns about the problems they face in this birth...and > unless those are addressed accurately Jyotish can never be put on > the same pedestal as science although we all would like to see that > happen. Science has a goal, what is the goal of Jyotish?? > > I find most astrologers egoistic about their abilities unlike > doctors who never feel bad about someone getting a second opinion, > most infact suggest it in serious cases.. > If the experienced astrologers of this group want, they can create a > expert panel, study a pool of horoscopes, make their predictions, > match their findings and follow-up on their clients for a pre- > determined period of time to see what percentage of their findings > have materialzed.. first solve the problems/trials and tribulations > of this birth for individuals or maybe even for nations and then > decide whether other things should be within the scope of the study > or not. > > If astrologers can be made accountable for their statements, their > credibility as a breed would increase. > My apologies beforehand in case I have hurt anyone's sentiments > about astrology, that is not my intention. I am a layman frequently > confused by astrologers :-) > with regards, > Shantala > > , "auromirra19" > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > RRji, > > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of a > > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and also > not > > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms > > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of becoming > > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you said > we > > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to devote > to > > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not > mean > > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for > later > > research on water divination but it is used for water divination > > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are there > to > > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been spared > > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead us > to > > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may sound > > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply going > > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world and > like > > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research for > > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have no > > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > > applications and be happy. > > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end and > if > > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of who > > knows, a far more beautiful world. > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and Nalini) > in > > > one message, if I may. > > > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the > potential > > or > > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us > know. > > It > > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there might > > lie > > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who are > > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand at > the > > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a > > certain > > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as long > as > > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding about > > the > > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non- research' > > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to be > > fair > > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less knowledgeable > and > > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or > raising > > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or not > > easily > > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth etc), > are > > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > > intrinsic > > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things such as > > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only astrology > > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the unverifiable > > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > > confidently > > > described as if there is some formula to identify these raises > > some > > > concerns. > > > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a science. > But > > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > > scientists > > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand > that > > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions should > > not > > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to > > answer > > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect me > to > > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most hard- > > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic > curiosity > > of > > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond the > > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. Just > > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the Yarrow > > stick > > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to do > > with > > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times > would > > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. > Wells, > > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous > > classic > > > novel. > > > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and so on > > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that > > shrinks > > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I > refuse > > to > > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that someone > has > > > done all the homework and validated every single combination > given > > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady ground > of > > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That > sort > > of > > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or what > > > science was built upon. > > > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking into > > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated again > and > > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm > convictions, > > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand -- > > perhaps > > > for the first time. > > > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation so > > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. > > However, > > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, > particularly > > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that are > > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors and > > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- whether > > they > > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not mean > > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out of > > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and dedicated > to > > > serving others through it are professionals and must maintain > the > > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has everything > to > > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the(right) > > hands > > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has great > > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned > > though > > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other > > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result we > > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives > not > > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not > that > > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on the > > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third > > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta devatas > > why > > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not > some > > > two > > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and > > water > > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer > any > > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual > gifts > > > or > > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take > > place, > > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s query > > reg > > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > > priority > > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark > materialistc > > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally materialistic, > > > people > > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to provide > > > them > > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that > astrology > > > can > > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual emanicipation > > and > > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does > jyotish > > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the > > yokes > > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out side > > the > > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were > doing > > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > > Regards > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > > > stark > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > > should > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change > > over > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish > > to > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every > body > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where > as > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less > interest > > in > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the > base > > > for > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > > important > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > > operate > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured > but > > > not > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > > animal > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not > for > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > > could > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > > concerns > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for > chasing > > > > lagoons. > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > > specifics? > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > > mutate > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > transcend > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > regards > > > > > krishnan > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different > > > view > > > > of > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > > associated > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand > the > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, > including > > > > logic > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some > sort > > > of > > > > a > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and > > > this > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > > possible > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and > its > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid > > of > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in > > the > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students > (us!) > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just > in > > > > some > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > > tangible > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > > education, > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > > > one's > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > > surmised > > > > and > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, > > how > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, > > what > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my > > last > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > Jyotishis, > > > > if > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > > figure > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > obvious, > > > so > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > ambiguity: > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > > doubted > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they > > say > > > in > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would > be: > > I > > > > can > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > > gender, > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > political > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as > some > > of > > > > the > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we > > have > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > > RELISH > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > RELISH > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 RR ji, No you did not say it, I said it and I started it off to say something and ended up saying something else entirely: My apologies. Nalini, "rohiniranjan" <rrgb wrote: > > I hope I did not say or mean that it is a rat race, whatever that > reference to was in your post :-) > > Research on water divination or oil divination in certain oil-rich > countries might not be such a bad idea actually :-) > > In a sense each jyotishi when giving a reading is doing research and > testing the system, since this is the first time this is being done. > After all the classics are considered to be 'revealed' vidya and not > researched, like science is. Another reason why jyotish, as we know > it, should not automatically be lumped with science as some hastily > do -- as if being a science somehow is going to raise the standards > or acceptability of astrology higher than whatever it is -- and I do > not mean in a group where everyone is converted already! This would > be a biased sample :-) > > As far as those who have some inherent fear, loathing for research, > it is their choice, of course. To each his favorite poison as they > say! > > I notice that no one is even touching my very simple question about > such obvious things as gender, religion, race not being that easily > discerned through astrology, in a blinded setting! > RR > > , "auromirra19" > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > RRji, > > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of a > > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and also > not > > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms > > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of becoming > > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you said > we > > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to devote > to > > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not > mean > > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for > later > > research on water divination but it is used for water divination > > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are there > to > > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been spared > > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead us > to > > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may sound > > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply going > > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world and > like > > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research for > > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have no > > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > > applications and be happy. > > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end and > if > > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of who > > knows, a far more beautiful world. > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and Nalini) > in > > > one message, if I may. > > > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the > potential > > or > > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us > know. > > It > > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there might > > lie > > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who are > > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand at > the > > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a > > certain > > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as long > as > > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding about > > the > > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non- research' > > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to be > > fair > > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less knowledgeable > and > > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or > raising > > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or not > > easily > > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth etc), > are > > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > > intrinsic > > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things such as > > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only astrology > > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the unverifiable > > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > > confidently > > > described as if there is some formula to identify these raises > > some > > > concerns. > > > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a science. > But > > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > > scientists > > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand > that > > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions should > > not > > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to > > answer > > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect me > to > > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most hard- > > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic > curiosity > > of > > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond the > > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. Just > > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the Yarrow > > stick > > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to do > > with > > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times > would > > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. > Wells, > > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous > > classic > > > novel. > > > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and so on > > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that > > shrinks > > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I > refuse > > to > > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that someone > has > > > done all the homework and validated every single combination > given > > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady ground > of > > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That > sort > > of > > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or what > > > science was built upon. > > > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking into > > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated again > and > > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm > convictions, > > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand -- > > perhaps > > > for the first time. > > > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation so > > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. > > However, > > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, > particularly > > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that are > > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors and > > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- whether > > they > > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not mean > > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out of > > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and dedicated > to > > > serving others through it are professionals and must maintain > the > > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has everything > to > > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the(right) > > hands > > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has great > > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned > > though > > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other > > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result we > > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives > not > > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not > that > > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on the > > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third > > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta devatas > > why > > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not > some > > > two > > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and > > water > > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer > any > > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual > gifts > > > or > > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take > > place, > > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s query > > reg > > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > > priority > > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark > materialistc > > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally materialistic, > > > people > > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to provide > > > them > > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that > astrology > > > can > > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual emanicipation > > and > > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does > jyotish > > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the > > yokes > > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out side > > the > > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were > doing > > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > > Regards > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers to"Such > > > stark > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > > should > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this change > > over > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for jyotish > > to > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every > body > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where > as > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less > interest > > in > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the > base > > > for > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > > important > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > > operate > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured > but > > > not > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective to > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > > animal > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not > for > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > > could > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > > concerns > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for > chasing > > > > lagoons. > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness but > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > > specifics? > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > > mutate > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > transcend > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > regards > > > > > krishnan > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very different > > > view > > > > of > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > > associated > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand > the > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, > including > > > > logic > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some > sort > > > of > > > > a > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us and > > > this > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > > possible > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and > its > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the aid > > of > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish in > > the > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students > (us!) > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not just > in > > > > some > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > > tangible > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > > education, > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: natures, > > > one's > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > > surmised > > > > and > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or not, > > how > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last birth, > > what > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in my > > last > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > Jyotishis, > > > > if > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > > figure > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > obvious, > > > so > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > ambiguity: > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > > doubted > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as they > > say > > > in > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would > be: > > I > > > > can > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > > gender, > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > political > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as > some > > of > > > > the > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that we > > have > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > > RELISH > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > RELISH > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? 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Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Nalini ji (both of you!) It seems you are taking this too personally and emotionally. If we all are going to benefit from this thread (I being the culprit who started it :-( we would have to not take every statement as if it was directed at us personally or as if we were being put in a cage where someone would sit in judgment over us. Maybe I am overreacting and overinterpreting your posting but I say what I sincerely feel and I am not going to change -- sorry! We are trying to examine not only astrology/jyotish here but how people, otherwise devoted and dedicated to the crafts, feel about it. It is not about RR vs Krishnan or Nalini vs RR or Nalini vs the rest of the world. None of us, no matter how accomplished, or how dedicated or how much in love with jyotish or spiritual realm -- is really equipped to defend jyotish. It is much bigger than any and all of us and considering the silent majority and sometimes honestly I am thankful and say Grace that they remain so -- and all we can do is study it through the eyes of our other playmates, all 25 vocal ones of them here, and only through taking in and absorbing the different perspectives of the entire classroom shall we even begin to understand what jyotish means to each of us and all of us, individually and together! RR , "auromirra19" <nalini2818 wrote: > > Hi, > I would respond to the latter part : I have known astrologers > (professional or otherwise, i.e whether astrology is their vocation > or avocation) elsewhere where after a free reading ask for feed > backs: would you believe it?As for accountability I thought I had > heard the last of it when I had got out of the bank, well go ahead > consumerise astrology, create accountability, consumer forums, > grievance redressal bureaux, ombudsman !!!!! > one can consider oneself blessed if confused by astrologers, imagine > being confused by doctors( situations where life matters) which > would certainly have life(less)?long repurcussions. > I dont mean disrespect to the medical community whose hackles I do > not want to raise but each profession/ field cannot be condemned > outright. Each has memebers on both sides of the line. > Why does not jyotish have a goal? Can it not help in > identifying/making a SWOT analysis, of oneself, analyse put 2 an 2 > together and arrive at a new You = 5? Can it not make u a better > person to live with and understand why someone behaves like how he > does?understand and accept it? and generally make life more worthy > of living? Well astrology is not only a science but also an art. > No hurt or disrespect intended please > Nalini > Nalini > > , "shantala_pandit" > <shantala_pandit@> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > I found this topic very interesting..in my humble opinion: > > Jyotish is a means and not an end in itself..we can glorify it all > > we want to but at the end of the day this group has 4599 members > on > > date of which my guess is 90% are here to get answers to their > > immediate concerns about the problems they face in this > birth...and > > unless those are addressed accurately Jyotish can never be put on > > the same pedestal as science although we all would like to see > that > > happen. Science has a goal, what is the goal of Jyotish?? > > > > I find most astrologers egoistic about their abilities unlike > > doctors who never feel bad about someone getting a second opinion, > > most infact suggest it in serious cases.. > > If the experienced astrologers of this group want, they can create > a > > expert panel, study a pool of horoscopes, make their predictions, > > match their findings and follow-up on their clients for a pre- > > determined period of time to see what percentage of their findings > > have materialzed.. first solve the problems/trials and > tribulations > > of this birth for individuals or maybe even for nations and then > > decide whether other things should be within the scope of the > study > > or not. > > > > If astrologers can be made accountable for their statements, their > > credibility as a breed would increase. > > My apologies beforehand in case I have hurt anyone's sentiments > > about astrology, that is not my intention. I am a layman > frequently > > confused by astrologers :-) > > with regards, > > Shantala > > > > , "auromirra19" > > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > RRji, > > > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of a > > > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and also > > not > > > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms > > > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of > becoming > > > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you said > > we > > > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to devote > > to > > > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not > > mean > > > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for > > later > > > research on water divination but it is used for water divination > > > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are there > > to > > > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been > spared > > > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead > us > > to > > > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may > sound > > > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > > > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply > going > > > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world and > > like > > > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research > for > > > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have > no > > > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > > > applications and be happy. > > > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end > and > > if > > > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of > who > > > knows, a far more beautiful world. > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and Nalini) > > in > > > > one message, if I may. > > > > > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the > > potential > > > or > > > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us > > know. > > > It > > > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there > might > > > lie > > > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who > are > > > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand at > > the > > > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a > > > certain > > > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as long > > as > > > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > > > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding > about > > > the > > > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non- > research' > > > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to be > > > fair > > > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less knowledgeable > > and > > > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or > > raising > > > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or not > > > easily > > > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth etc), > > are > > > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > > > intrinsic > > > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > > > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things such > as > > > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only > astrology > > > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the > unverifiable > > > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > > > confidently > > > > described as if there is some formula to identify these raises > > > some > > > > concerns. > > > > > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a science. > > But > > > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > > > scientists > > > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand > > that > > > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > > > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions > should > > > not > > > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to > > > answer > > > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect > me > > to > > > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most > hard- > > > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic > > curiosity > > > of > > > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond > the > > > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. Just > > > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the Yarrow > > > stick > > > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to > do > > > with > > > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times > > would > > > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. > > Wells, > > > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous > > > classic > > > > novel. > > > > > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and so > on > > > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that > > > shrinks > > > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I > > refuse > > > to > > > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that someone > > has > > > > done all the homework and validated every single combination > > given > > > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady > ground > > of > > > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That > > sort > > > of > > > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or > what > > > > science was built upon. > > > > > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking > into > > > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated again > > and > > > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm > > convictions, > > > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand -- > > > perhaps > > > > for the first time. > > > > > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation > so > > > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. > > > However, > > > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, > > particularly > > > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that > are > > > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors and > > > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- > whether > > > they > > > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not mean > > > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out of > > > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and dedicated > > to > > > > serving others through it are professionals and must maintain > > the > > > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has > everything > > to > > > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the (right) > > > hands > > > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has > great > > > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned > > > though > > > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other > > > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result > we > > > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives > > not > > > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not > > that > > > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on > the > > > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third > > > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta > devatas > > > why > > > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not > > some > > > > two > > > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and > > > water > > > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer > > any > > > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual > > gifts > > > > or > > > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take > > > place, > > > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s > query > > > reg > > > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > > > priority > > > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark > > materialistc > > > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally > materialistic, > > > > people > > > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to > provide > > > > them > > > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that > > astrology > > > > can > > > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual > emanicipation > > > and > > > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does > > jyotish > > > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the > > > yokes > > > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out > side > > > the > > > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were > > doing > > > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > > > Regards > > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers > to"Such > > > > stark > > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > > > should > > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this > change > > > over > > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for > jyotish > > > to > > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every > > body > > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where > > as > > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less > > interest > > > in > > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the > > base > > > > for > > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > > > important > > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > > > operate > > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured > > but > > > > not > > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective > to > > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > > > animal > > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not > > for > > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > > > could > > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > > > concerns > > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for > > chasing > > > > > lagoons. > > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness > but > > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > > > specifics? > > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > > > mutate > > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > > transcend > > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > > regards > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very > different > > > > view > > > > > of > > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > > > associated > > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand > > the > > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, > > including > > > > > logic > > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some > > sort > > > > of > > > > > a > > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us > and > > > > this > > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > > > possible > > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and > > its > > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the > aid > > > of > > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish > in > > > the > > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students > > (us!) > > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not > just > > in > > > > > some > > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > > > tangible > > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > > > education, > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: > natures, > > > > one's > > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > > > surmised > > > > > and > > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or > not, > > > how > > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last > birth, > > > what > > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in > my > > > last > > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > > Jyotishis, > > > > > if > > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > > > figure > > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > > obvious, > > > > so > > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > > ambiguity: > > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > > > doubted > > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as > they > > > say > > > > in > > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would > > be: > > > I > > > > > can > > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > > > gender, > > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > > political > > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as > > some > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that > we > > > have > > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY > AND > > > > RELISH > > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > > of > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > > RELISH > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? 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Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 This is exactly what I was toying with the idea:identifying/making a SWOT analysis Some thing meaningful can be made out.Understand the directions and way it has to serve and the way it is gaining importance and what needs to be done and finally who are that takers,i mean"sponsorers/customers/if not buyers You are Certainly forth right Rohini da in saying:"we even begin to and only through taking in and absorbing the different perspectives of the entire classroom understand what jyotish means to each of us" Astrology as a language and communication we look to have been devided but not so we are well on the same road and on the same path and with same objective.Some times if at all we appear to differ it is only to "fathom" further to be able to bring out fineness. may be the participation is yet to come come up from others >For now as you summed up:Nalinini vs RR,RR vs RK andRKvs Nalini to have at least 24 ways (mathematically) of different approaches. Never we mean to say you change.So let's not: (say what I sincerely feel and I am not going to change) -- sorry! krishnan rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: Nalini ji (both of you!) It seems you are taking this too personally and emotionally. If we all are going to benefit from this thread (I being the culprit who started it :-( we would have to not take every statement as if it was directed at us personally or as if we were being put in a cage where someone would sit in judgment over us. Maybe I am overreacting and overinterpreting your posting but I say what I sincerely feel and I am not going to change -- sorry! We are trying to examine not only astrology/jyotish here but how people, otherwise devoted and dedicated to the crafts, feel about it. It is not about RR vs Krishnan or Nalini vs RR or Nalini vs the rest of the world. None of us, no matter how accomplished, or how dedicated or how much in love with jyotish or spiritual realm -- is really equipped to defend jyotish. It is much bigger than any and all of us and considering the silent majority and sometimes honestly I am thankful and say Grace that they remain so -- and all we can do is study it through the eyes of our other playmates, all 25 vocal ones of them here, shall we even begin to and only through taking in and absorbing the different perspectives of the entire classroom understand what jyotish means to each of us and all of us, individually and together! RR , "auromirra19" <nalini2818 wrote: > > Hi, > I would respond to the latter part : I have known astrologers > (professional or otherwise, i.e whether astrology is their vocation > or avocation) elsewhere where after a free reading ask for feed > backs: would you believe it?As for accountability I thought I had > heard the last of it when I had got out of the bank, well go ahead > consumerise astrology, create accountability, consumer forums, > grievance redressal bureaux, ombudsman !!!!! > one can consider oneself blessed if confused by astrologers, imagine > being confused by doctors( situations where life matters) which > would certainly have life(less)?long repurcussions. > I dont mean disrespect to the medical community whose hackles I do > not want to raise but each profession/ field cannot be condemned > outright. Each has memebers on both sides of the line. > Why does not jyotish have a goal? Can it not help in > identifying/making a SWOT analysis, of oneself, analyse put 2 an 2 > together and arrive at a new You = 5? Can it not make u a better > person to live with and understand why someone behaves like how he > does?understand and accept it? and generally make life more worthy > of living? Well astrology is not only a science but also an art. > No hurt or disrespect intended please > Nalini > Nalini > > , "shantala_pandit" > <shantala_pandit@> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > I found this topic very interesting..in my humble opinion: > > Jyotish is a means and not an end in itself..we can glorify it all > > we want to but at the end of the day this group has 4599 members > on > > date of which my guess is 90% are here to get answers to their > > immediate concerns about the problems they face in this > birth...and > > unless those are addressed accurately Jyotish can never be put on > > the same pedestal as science although we all would like to see > that > > happen. Science has a goal, what is the goal of Jyotish?? > > > > I find most astrologers egoistic about their abilities unlike > > doctors who never feel bad about someone getting a second opinion, > > most infact suggest it in serious cases.. > > If the experienced astrologers of this group want, they can create > a > > expert panel, study a pool of horoscopes, make their predictions, > > match their findings and follow-up on their clients for a pre- > > determined period of time to see what percentage of their findings > > have materialzed.. first solve the problems/trials and > tribulations > > of this birth for individuals or maybe even for nations and then > > decide whether other things should be within the scope of the > study > > or not. > > > > If astrologers can be made accountable for their statements, their > > credibility as a breed would increase. > > My apologies beforehand in case I have hurt anyone's sentiments > > about astrology, that is not my intention. I am a layman > frequently > > confused by astrologers :-) > > with regards, > > Shantala > > > > , "auromirra19" > > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > RRji, > > > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of a > > > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and also > > not > > > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms > > > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of > becoming > > > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you said > > we > > > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to devote > > to > > > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not > > mean > > > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for > > later > > > research on water divination but it is used for water divination > > > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are there > > to > > > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been > spared > > > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead > us > > to > > > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may > sound > > > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > > > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply > going > > > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world and > > like > > > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research > for > > > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have > no > > > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > > > applications and be happy. > > > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end > and > > if > > > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of > who > > > knows, a far more beautiful world. > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" <rrgb@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and Nalini) > > in > > > > one message, if I may. > > > > > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the > > potential > > > or > > > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us > > know. > > > It > > > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there > might > > > lie > > > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who > are > > > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand at > > the > > > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a > > > certain > > > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as long > > as > > > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > > > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding > about > > > the > > > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non- > research' > > > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to be > > > fair > > > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less knowledgeable > > and > > > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or > > raising > > > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or not > > > easily > > > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth etc), > > are > > > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > > > intrinsic > > > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > > > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things such > as > > > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only > astrology > > > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the > unverifiable > > > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > > > confidently > > > > described as if there is some formula to identify these raises > > > some > > > > concerns. > > > > > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a science. > > But > > > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > > > scientists > > > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand > > that > > > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > > > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions > should > > > not > > > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to > > > answer > > > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect > me > > to > > > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most > hard- > > > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic > > curiosity > > > of > > > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond > the > > > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. Just > > > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the Yarrow > > > stick > > > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to > do > > > with > > > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times > > would > > > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. > > Wells, > > > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous > > > classic > > > > novel. > > > > > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and so > on > > > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that > > > shrinks > > > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I > > refuse > > > to > > > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that someone > > has > > > > done all the homework and validated every single combination > > given > > > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady > ground > > of > > > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That > > sort > > > of > > > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or > what > > > > science was built upon. > > > > > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking > into > > > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated again > > and > > > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm > > convictions, > > > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand -- > > > perhaps > > > > for the first time. > > > > > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation > so > > > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. > > > However, > > > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, > > particularly > > > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that > are > > > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors and > > > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- > whether > > > they > > > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not mean > > > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out of > > > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and dedicated > > to > > > > serving others through it are professionals and must maintain > > the > > > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has > everything > > to > > > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the (right) > > > hands > > > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has > great > > > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be conditioned > > > though > > > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or other > > > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result > we > > > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate objectives > > not > > > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is not > > that > > > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on > the > > > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a third > > > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta > devatas > > > why > > > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not > > some > > > > two > > > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water and > > > water > > > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can answer > > any > > > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual > > gifts > > > > or > > > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will take > > > place, > > > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s > query > > > reg > > > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > > > priority > > > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark > > materialistc > > > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally > materialistic, > > > > people > > > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to > provide > > > > them > > > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that > > astrology > > > > can > > > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual > emanicipation > > > and > > > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does > > jyotish > > > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to the > > > yokes > > > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out > side > > > the > > > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were > > doing > > > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > > > Regards > > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers > to"Such > > > > stark > > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted about > > > should > > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this > change > > > over > > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for > jyotish > > > to > > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to be > > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every > > body > > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from applications.where > > as > > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less > > interest > > > in > > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is the > > base > > > > for > > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > > > important > > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend to > > > > operate > > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though endured > > but > > > > not > > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult perspective > to > > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result from > > > > animal > > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but not > > for > > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and politics > > > could > > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > > > concerns > > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for > > chasing > > > > > lagoons. > > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has to > > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness > but > > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > > > specifics? > > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and races > > > > mutate > > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > > transcend > > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > > regards > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very > different > > > > view > > > > > of > > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > > > associated > > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to understand > > the > > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps an > > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, > > including > > > > > logic > > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and some > > sort > > > > of > > > > > a > > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us > and > > > > this > > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both are > > > > > possible > > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish and > > its > > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the > aid > > > of > > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does jyotish > in > > > the > > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students > > (us!) > > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not > just > > in > > > > > some > > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > > > tangible > > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, occupation, > > > > > education, > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: > natures, > > > > one's > > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > > > surmised > > > > > and > > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or > not, > > > how > > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last > birth, > > > what > > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in > my > > > last > > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > > Jyotishis, > > > > > if > > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy to > > > > figure > > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > > obvious, > > > > so > > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > > ambiguity: > > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > > > doubted > > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as > they > > > say > > > > in > > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation would > > be: > > > I > > > > > can > > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > > > gender, > > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > > political > > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as > > some > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that > we > > > have > > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY > AND > > > > RELISH > > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > > of > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND > > > RELISH > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology Visit your group "" on the web. Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 Thanks for the exercise and chance to practice ;-) , vattem krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > This is exactly what I was toying with the idea:identifying/making a SWOT analysis > Some thing meaningful can be made out.Understand the directions and way it has to serve and the way it is gaining importance and what needs to be done and finally who are that takers,i mean"sponsorers/customers/if not buyers > You are Certainly forth right Rohini da in saying:"we even begin to and only through taking in and absorbing the different perspectives of the entire classroom understand what jyotish means to each of us" > Astrology as a language and communication we look to have been devided but not so we are well on the same road and on the same path and with same objective.Some times if at all we appear to differ it is only to "fathom" further to be able to bring out fineness. > may be the participation is yet to come come up from others >For now as you summed up:Nalinini vs RR,RR vs RK andRKvs Nalini to have at least 24 ways (mathematically) of different approaches. > Never we mean to say you change.So let's not: (say what I sincerely feel and I am not going to change) -- sorry! > krishnan > rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote: > Nalini ji (both of you!) > > It seems you are taking this too personally and emotionally. If we > all are going to benefit from this thread (I being the culprit who > started it :-( we would have to not take every statement as if it > was directed at us personally or as if we were being put in a cage > where someone would sit in judgment over us. Maybe I am overreacting > and overinterpreting your posting but I say what I sincerely feel > and I am not going to change -- sorry! > > We are trying to examine not only astrology/jyotish here but how > people, otherwise devoted and dedicated to the crafts, feel about > it. It is not about RR vs Krishnan or Nalini vs RR or Nalini vs the > rest of the world. > > None of us, no matter how accomplished, or how dedicated or how much > in love with jyotish or spiritual realm -- is really equipped to > defend jyotish. It is much bigger than any and all of us and > considering the silent majority and sometimes honestly I am thankful > and say Grace that they remain so -- and all we can do is study it > through the eyes of our other playmates, all 25 vocal ones of them > here, shall we even begin to and only through taking in and absorbing the different > perspectives of the entire classroom > understand what jyotish means to each of us and all of us, > individually and together! > > RR > > > > , "auromirra19" > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I would respond to the latter part : I have known astrologers > > (professional or otherwise, i.e whether astrology is their > vocation > > or avocation) elsewhere where after a free reading ask for feed > > backs: would you believe it?As for accountability I thought I had > > heard the last of it when I had got out of the bank, well go ahead > > consumerise astrology, create accountability, consumer forums, > > grievance redressal bureaux, ombudsman !!!!! > > one can consider oneself blessed if confused by astrologers, > imagine > > being confused by doctors( situations where life matters) which > > would certainly have life(less)?long repurcussions. > > I dont mean disrespect to the medical community whose hackles I do > > not want to raise but each profession/ field cannot be condemned > > outright. Each has memebers on both sides of the line. > > Why does not jyotish have a goal? Can it not help in > > identifying/making a SWOT analysis, of oneself, analyse put 2 an 2 > > together and arrive at a new You = 5? Can it not make u a better > > person to live with and understand why someone behaves like how he > > does?understand and accept it? and generally make life more worthy > > of living? Well astrology is not only a science but also an art. > > No hurt or disrespect intended please > > Nalini > > Nalini > > > > , "shantala_pandit" > > <shantala_pandit@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > I found this topic very interesting..in my humble opinion: > > > Jyotish is a means and not an end in itself..we can glorify it > all > > > we want to but at the end of the day this group has 4599 members > > on > > > date of which my guess is 90% are here to get answers to their > > > immediate concerns about the problems they face in this > > birth...and > > > unless those are addressed accurately Jyotish can never be put > on > > > the same pedestal as science although we all would like to see > > that > > > happen. Science has a goal, what is the goal of Jyotish?? > > > > > > I find most astrologers egoistic about their abilities unlike > > > doctors who never feel bad about someone getting a second > opinion, > > > most infact suggest it in serious cases.. > > > If the experienced astrologers of this group want, they can > create > > a > > > expert panel, study a pool of horoscopes, make their > predictions, > > > match their findings and follow-up on their clients for a pre- > > > determined period of time to see what percentage of their > findings > > > have materialzed.. first solve the problems/trials and > > tribulations > > > of this birth for individuals or maybe even for nations and then > > > decide whether other things should be within the scope of the > > study > > > or not. > > > > > > If astrologers can be made accountable for their statements, > their > > > credibility as a breed would increase. > > > My apologies beforehand in case I have hurt anyone's sentiments > > > about astrology, that is not my intention. I am a layman > > frequently > > > confused by astrologers :-) > > > with regards, > > > Shantala > > > > > > , "auromirra19" > > > <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > RRji, > > > > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of > a > > > > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and > also > > > not > > > > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms > > > > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of > > becoming > > > > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you > said > > > we > > > > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to > devote > > > to > > > > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not > > > mean > > > > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for > > > later > > > > research on water divination but it is used for water > divination > > > > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are > there > > > to > > > > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been > > spared > > > > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead > > us > > > to > > > > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may > > sound > > > > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask > > > > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply > > going > > > > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world > and > > > like > > > > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research > > for > > > > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have > > no > > > > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand > > > > applications and be happy. > > > > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end > > and > > > if > > > > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of > > who > > > > knows, a far more beautiful world. > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rohiniranjan" > <rrgb@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and > Nalini) > > > in > > > > > one message, if I may. > > > > > > > > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the > > > potential > > > > or > > > > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us > > > know. > > > > It > > > > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there > > might > > > > lie > > > > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who > > are > > > > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand > at > > > the > > > > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a > > > > certain > > > > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as > long > > > as > > > > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a > > > > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding > > about > > > > the > > > > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non- > > research' > > > > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to > be > > > > fair > > > > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less > knowledgeable > > > and > > > > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or > > > raising > > > > > hopes which may have the potential to crash. > > > > > > > > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or > not > > > > easily > > > > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth > etc), > > > are > > > > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their > > > > intrinsic > > > > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution. > > > > > > > > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and > > > > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things > such > > as > > > > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably > > > > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only > > astrology > > > > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the > > unverifiable > > > > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so > > > > confidently > > > > > described as if there is some formula to identify these > raises > > > > some > > > > > concerns. > > > > > > > > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a > science. > > > But > > > > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like > > > > scientists > > > > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand > > > that > > > > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time, > > > > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions > > should > > > > not > > > > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to > > > > answer > > > > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect > > me > > > to > > > > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most > > hard- > > > > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic > > > curiosity > > > > of > > > > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond > > the > > > > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue. > Just > > > > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the > Yarrow > > > > stick > > > > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to > > do > > > > with > > > > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times > > > would > > > > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon. > > > Wells, > > > > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous > > > > classic > > > > > novel. > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and > so > > on > > > > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that > > > > shrinks > > > > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I > > > refuse > > > > to > > > > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that > someone > > > has > > > > > done all the homework and validated every single combination > > > given > > > > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady > > ground > > > of > > > > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That > > > sort > > > > of > > > > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or > > what > > > > > science was built upon. > > > > > > > > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking > > into > > > > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated > again > > > and > > > > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm > > > convictions, > > > > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand - - > > > > perhaps > > > > > for the first time. > > > > > > > > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation > > so > > > > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid. > > > > However, > > > > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi, > > > particularly > > > > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that > > are > > > > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors > and > > > > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity -- > > whether > > > > they > > > > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not > mean > > > > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out > of > > > > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and > dedicated > > > to > > > > > serving others through it are professionals and must > maintain > > > the > > > > > integrity of what we say and how we say it. > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has > > everything > > > to > > > > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the > (right) > > > > hands > > > > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has > > great > > > > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other > > > > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be > conditioned > > > > though > > > > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or > other > > > > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result > > we > > > > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate > objectives > > > not > > > > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is > not > > > that > > > > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on > > the > > > > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > > > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a > third > > > > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta > > devatas > > > > why > > > > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not > > > some > > > > > two > > > > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water > and > > > > water > > > > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can > answer > > > any > > > > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual > > > gifts > > > > > or > > > > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will > take > > > > place, > > > > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s > > query > > > > reg > > > > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of > > > > priority > > > > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark > > > materialistc > > > > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally > > materialistic, > > > > > people > > > > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to > > provide > > > > > them > > > > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that > > > astrology > > > > > can > > > > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual > > emanicipation > > > > and > > > > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does > > > jyotish > > > > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to > the > > > > yokes > > > > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out > > side > > > > the > > > > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were > > > doing > > > > > > among jyotish and planets. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Nalini > > > > > > > > > > > > , vattem krishnan > > > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rohini da, > > > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers > > to"Such > > > > > stark > > > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted > about > > > > should > > > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern, > > > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this > > change > > > > over > > > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for > > jyotish > > > > to > > > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to > be > > > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every > > > body > > > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from > applications.where > > > as > > > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers > > > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less > > > interest > > > > in > > > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is > the > > > base > > > > > for > > > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more > > > > > important > > > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend > to > > > > > operate > > > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though > endured > > > but > > > > > not > > > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult > perspective > > to > > > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result > from > > > > > animal > > > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens. > > > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but > not > > > for > > > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life. > > > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and > politics > > > > could > > > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate > > > > > concerns > > > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for > > > chasing > > > > > > lagoons. > > > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has > to > > > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it > > > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities. > > > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness > > but > > > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on > > > > > specifics? > > > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a > > > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate > > > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and > races > > > > > mutate > > > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political > > > transcend > > > > > > takes generations to pass. > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > krishnan > > > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very > > different > > > > > view > > > > > > of > > > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other > > > > > > associated > > > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to > understand > > > the > > > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps > an > > > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us, > > > including > > > > > > logic > > > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and > some > > > sort > > > > > of > > > > > > a > > > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us > > and > > > > > this > > > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both > are > > > > > > possible > > > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish > and > > > its > > > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the > > aid > > > > of > > > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does > jyotish > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students > > > (us!) > > > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not > > just > > > in > > > > > > some > > > > > > > flash of inspiration? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and > > > > tangible > > > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money, > occupation, > > > > > > education, > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible: > > natures, > > > > > one's > > > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often > > > > surmised > > > > > > and > > > > > > > not really confirmed! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or > > not, > > > > how > > > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last > > birth, > > > > what > > > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in > > my > > > > last > > > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn? > > > > Jyotishis, > > > > > > if > > > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy > to > > > > > figure > > > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so > > > obvious, > > > > > so > > > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and > > > ambiguity: > > > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political > > > > affiliation! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be > > > > doubted > > > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as > > they > > > > say > > > > > in > > > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation > would > > > be: > > > > I > > > > > > can > > > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the > > > > gender, > > > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and > > > > political > > > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as > > > some > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that > > we > > > > have > > > > > > > been discussing and hearing about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments, volunteers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY > > AND > > > > > RELISH > > > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > > > of > > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > > attachments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY > AND > > > > RELISH > > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms > > > of > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY AND RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > Hindu astrology Vedic astrology Free vedic astrology > > > > > > Visit your group "" on the web. > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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