Jyotish (When was Jyotish respectable?)

[Guest guest]

Krishnan ji,

 

I must press on sir, and hopefully you will not be offended or take

this personally! I am after the truth and I need to see it up close!

 

Honestly now, Sir, when was jyotish/astrology in such a lofty

position of respect, in the society at large, in any society or

country and for how long? Where is the proof of that? I would really

love to know that.

 

Please enlighten us.

 

RR

 

 

 

 

, vattem krishnan

<bursar_99 wrote:

>

> Let Jyotishis try to be in the garb of Psychology only for purpose

convincing people and advance jyotish.Thre subject has respect even

without being a science or otherwise.Once jyotish was in steep/and

in heights and away from common man.Now it is in plains making

people to try this recourse too.This itself has to promote not to

get tired and advance further without looking for steepness.First of

all let all of us start thinking of setting milestones to aspire and

genarations to think

> first(permit with emotions?) to be able to do something for future

> krishnan

> rohiniranjan <rrgb wrote:

> Just to clarify, this is not about science vs astrology! It is

not

> also about what astrology deserves or what its birthright is.

> Psychology has had to struggle very hard as also sociology which

> were considered soft sciences and even now are by some hard-boiled

> individuals!

>

> Psychology worked hard by collecting and presenting its data and

> observations in a way which impresses upon the readers and serious

> listeners that it is not some hairy-fairy loose thinking.

Astrology

> and astrologers would have to do the same.

>

> Mind you it is not necessary, but then astrologers would have to

> stop being so in awe of science and keep on calling their craft

> science. They will get more mileage by actually showing it and

> presenting it so and then letting the audience figure it out

> themselves. Psychology has a much better chance of convincing

people

> and it still is struggling. Astrology has a much steeper climb

> comparatively.

>

> Sure enough, someone would pipe up and say, "But we do not have to

> prove anything to anyone!". I say, that is a good start towards

> regaining self-worth and independence! Go with that thought!

>

> RR

>

> , vattem krishnan

> <bursar_99@> wrote:

> >

> > I feel that science what the job it has to do and can do is

doing

> either through biochemical means or by other means for mitigating

> the rce and gender politics.In Haryana we do not need feel girl

> child.Else where we do not spare other than red skin.what the

world

> looks for resources that is how countries with oil production have

> more importance.In Jyotish we wish to supplement to sciences,by

> telling what was revealed in classics was ignored and several

races

> that disappered and on the way can be pu back into nature system

by

> values.So Astrology is looking for those ears who have patience to

> listen to us and respect.Scinces no doubt felt for the need of

> spirtuality and in this direction jyotish can aspire to become a

> development sciences.Jyotishi,in his own humblesness is yelling

that

> in no means jyotish is not to be underscore.If some body cound

> promote futurology why not this value based science.whether it is

> science or not it is less of consequences.If others like

psychology

> could

> > be given due regard why not our field.Then if this slightest

> encouragement is given jyotishis can find time to bring balance in

> Nature by talking more about races,gender and so on and so

forth.we

> have the quest but we are distrubed at the mad rush to things of

> immediate importance.so we burn our energies in setting the houses

> in peace and in extinguishing the flames that we want to be on to

> the top at the cost of anything.probably to wish for some thing is

> not wrong but wish to get by any means is to distrub the Nature.we

> are ceratinly into it but need to think how the world lies in

> races,genders and in apolitical approaches.

> > "we shall over come one day" is not bad to contend as of today

> if people can be made live in peace in their own abodes through

all

> of us,the rest to can be made a reality by our delving into areas

> and supplement to the sciences

> > krishnan

> >

> > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote:

> > I hope I did not say or mean that it is a rat race, whatever

> that

> > reference to was in your post :-)

> >

> > Research on water divination or oil divination in certain oil-

rich

> > countries might not be such a bad idea actually :-)

> >

> > In a sense each jyotishi when giving a reading is doing research

> and

> > testing the system, since this is the first time this is being

> done.

> > After all the classics are considered to be 'revealed' vidya and

> not

> > researched, like science is. Another reason why jyotish, as we

> know

> > it, should not automatically be lumped with science as some

> hastily

> > do -- as if being a science somehow is going to raise the

> standards

> > or acceptability of astrology higher than whatever it is -- and

I

> do

> > not mean in a group where everyone is converted already! This

> would

> > be a biased sample :-)

> >

> > As far as those who have some inherent fear, loathing for

> research,

> > it is their choice, of course. To each his favorite poison as

they

> > say!

> >

> > I notice that no one is even touching my very simple question

> about

> > such obvious things as gender, religion, race not being that

> easily

> > discerned through astrology, in a blinded setting!

> > RR

> >

> > , "auromirra19"

> > <nalini2818@> wrote:

> > >

> > > RRji,

> > > Yes, sir, it is true that every jyotishi in the true spirit of

a

> > > scientist has to accept in to validate his/her findings and

also

> > not

> > > lose the enthusiasm and the urge to explore beyond the realms

> > > because once that is lost either theyare in the danger of

> becoming

> > > too complacent or getting stuck in a groove.But then as you

said

> > we

> > > are in the rat race and have hardly the time or energy to

devote

> > to

> > > a time consuming exercise which is not profit making.I did not

> > mean

> > > that the two pronged stick was not science, it is the base for

> > later

> > > research on water divination but it is used for water

divination

> > > alone. Well thank God , we are in a world where people are

there

> > to

> > > question findings, applications. Socrates would have been

> spared

> > > his hemlock had he been as fortunate as us. Debating does lead

> us

> > to

> > > new topics, though superficially and at a cursory glance may

> sound

> > > or seem so distanced from the point in question. Not to ask

> > > questions or be curious as to how it was unearthed is simply

> going

> > > through the motions of the earlier inhabitants of the world

and

> > like

> > > prescribing hemlock to socrates. As krishnanji, said research

> for

> > > the sake of research, the basics, is something lot others have

> no

> > > respect for.given the basics, research and invent thousand

> > > applications and be happy.

> > > If we think we have arrived at the end and stop it is the end

> and

> > if

> > > we stop and probe beyond the end then it is the beginning, of

> who

> > > knows, a far more beautiful world.

> > > Nalini

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , "rohiniranjan"

<rrgb@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I will share my views with both of you (Krishnanji and

Nalini)

> > in

> > > > one message, if I may.

> > > >

> > > > My point which I shall reiterate, is not about what the

> > potential

> > > or

> > > > ultimate scope or capability of jyotish is. That none of us

> > know.

> > > It

> > > > is quite possible that in proper hands, as you say, there

> might

> > > lie

> > > > the answers to every question in the universe. For those who

> are

> > > > doing research or experimenting what can be made with sand

at

> > the

> > > > beaches or in computer chip making industry (and there is a

> > > certain

> > > > pleasure in that activity for those inclined so!), and as

long

> > as

> > > > they state so, rather than giving an impression that it is a

> > > > validated and well-tested matter, causes misunderstanding

> about

> > > the

> > > > real state of the knowledge. My issue is that for 'non-

> research'

> > > > aplications or situations, one should sound caution just to

be

> > > fair

> > > > to the 'consumer' who may understandably be less

knowledgeable

> > and

> > > > often very trusting. Particularly when costly remedies or

> > raising

> > > > hopes which may have the potential to crash.

> > > >

> > > > Until such new explorations, yet not fully established or

not

> > > easily

> > > > validatable (ishta devta, moksha, last birth, next birth

etc),

> > are

> > > > definitively and demonstratively established, due to their

> > > intrinsic

> > > > uncertainty, we should continue to sound such caution.

> > > >

> > > > Can Jyotish (as it stands now) tell everything? Emotions and

> > > > devotions would indicate so. However such OBVIOUS things

such

> as

> > > > gender, race, nationality to name three cannot be reliably

> > > > identified from a horoscope (or horoscopes) using only

> astrology

> > > > principles. Why is the obvious so difficult and the

> unverifiable

> > > > unobvious such as poorvajanma, next janma, etc can be so

> > > confidently

> > > > described as if there is some formula to identify these

raises

> > > some

> > > > concerns.

> > > >

> > > > Nalini, you and many others insist that jyotish is a

science.

> > But

> > > > then two things must follow: Jyotishis should think like

> > > scientists

> > > > and not take new findings without a pinch of salt and demand

> > that

> > > > they be validated, verified, explained. I realize that time,

> > > > resources etc would make this difficult but the questions

> should

> > > not

> > > > stop. Someone, somewhere will have the time and resources to

> > > answer

> > > > the questions. Where I can, at the very least you can expect

> me

> > to

> > > > ask such questions. The second thing is that even the most

> hard-

> > > > boiled, hard-core scientist must not lose the intrinsic

> > curiosity

> > > of

> > > > a child and the optimism too that something lies just beyond

> the

> > > > horizon of knowing, hence the exploration must continue.

Just

> > > > because we do not know what is the mechanism behind the

Yarrow

> > > stick

> > > > finding water, we should not dismiss it as having nothing to

> do

> > > with

> > > > science :-) After all, the scientists in H.G. Wells' times

> > would

> > > > have guffawed at the thought of men actually going to moon.

> > Wells,

> > > > on the other hand thought otherwise when he wrote his famous

> > > classic

> > > > novel.

> > > >

> > > > Speaking of classics, given the ambiguity, uncertainty and

so

> on

> > > > around what we consider classics in astrology -- a list that

> > > shrinks

> > > > and expands often to fit the burden of proof required -- I

> > refuse

> > > to

> > > > take what is described in there as absolute proof that

someone

> > has

> > > > done all the homework and validated every single combination

> > given

> > > > therein or even every single principle is on rock steady

> ground

> > of

> > > > reality and directly applicable without any discussion. That

> > sort

> > > of

> > > > blanket acceptance does not sound scientific or rational or

> what

> > > > science was built upon.

> > > >

> > > > I apologize if I am making anyone uncomfortable or walking

> into

> > > > anyone's sand castle, but these things have to be stated

again

> > and

> > > > again for the benefit not of those with already firm

> > convictions,

> > > > right or wrong, but those who are still playing with sand --

> > > perhaps

> > > > for the first time.

> > > >

> > > > Again, I have no reservations myself towards experimentation

> so

> > > > please don't wrongly think of me as anti-progress or rigid.

> > > However,

> > > > the statements and pronouncements made by a jyotishi,

> > particularly

> > > > in a reading must carefully and clearly indicate things that

> are

> > > > experimental and those that are more certain. As advisors

and

> > > > counsellors we owe that to our clients, the nativity --

> whether

> > > they

> > > > are paying or not. In this sense, 'professional' does not

mean

> > > > necessarily, as in other fields, one who makes a living out

of

> > > > jyotish. All of us who are serious about jyotish and

dedicated

> > to

> > > > serving others through it are professionals and must

maintain

> > the

> > > > integrity of what we say and how we say it.

> > > >

> > > > RR

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , vattem krishnan

> > > > <bursar_99@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Jyotish(ASTROLOGY) ,that concerns about Nature has

> everything

> > to

> > > > boast off .Yet we do not know whether it is put in the

(right)

> > > hands

> > > > to come out with right perspectives..The subject/topic has

> great

> > > > swings providing scope for further studies like any other

> > > > science.But then all in Nature whch we can not be

conditioned

> > > though

> > > > the subjects may be conditioned always waiting in one or

other

> > > > shelters for something to repeat.we are not sure.As a result

> we

> > > > discuss about several issues which are of immediate

objectives

> > not

> > > > of things that likely to effect at a distant future.It is

not

> > that

> > > > the subject Astrology is not capable,but pleasure seekers on

> the

> > > > beaches are busy with their own smal creations on beach sides

> > > > > krishnan

> > > > >

> > > > > auromirra19 <nalini2818@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Astrology is a science. If it can answer and provide a

third

> > > > > diemnsion to logic and reason in identifying our ishta

> devatas

> > > why

> > > > > not in other aspects mundane, astral, spiritual. It is not

> > some

> > > > two

> > > > > pronged stick which helps in identifying source of water

and

> > > water

> > > > > alone. In the hands of the right person astrology can

answer

> > any

> > > > > question pertaining to the above with or without spiritual

> > gifts

> > > > or

> > > > > intuition.If a native wants to know when marriage will

take

> > > place,

> > > > > when will he/she acquire a house as opposed to another`s

> query

> > > reg

> > > > > ishta devatas, spiritual leanings etc is all a matter of

> > > priority

> > > > > they have in their lives.It is because of the stark

> > materialistc

> > > > > world we inhabit, majority of concerns equally

> materialistic,

> > > > people

> > > > > need a recourse and astrology is the finest science to

> provide

> > > > them

> > > > > with answers. So it is difficult for them accept that

> > astrology

> > > > can

> > > > > provide remedies to failure in love to spiritual

> emanicipation

> > > and

> > > > > why not Bhakthi? Should not a jyotish be a bhaktha? Does

> > jyotish

> > > > > advocate rationalism? Why should we confine ourselves to

the

> > > yokes

> > > > > of the regular? can we not atleast struggle to think out

> side

> > > the

> > > > > box? someone wondered what ishtadevatas and bhakthi were

> > doing

> > > > > among jyotish and planets.

> > > > > Regards

> > > > > Nalini

> > > > >

> > > > > , vattem krishnan

> > > > > <bursar_99@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Rohini da,

> > > > > > Jyotish has to trascend from materialistic concers

> to"Such

> > > > stark

> > > > > and commonplace realities which hardly can be doubted

about

> > > should

> > > > > be easy as pie for jyotishtodiscern,

> > > > > > yet it appears we need to look for takers for this

> change

> > > over

> > > > > to happen.No sign boards in that even are required for

> jyotish

> > > to

> > > > > subject issues of less pep and sour tastes

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I often find in my educational set up people tend to

be

> > > > > application oriented research than to basic research.Every

> > body

> > > > > knows that limit knowledge stems out from

applications.where

> > as

> > > > > basics have long life to go and forms ground work.Rulers

> > > > > particularly Rajaas(more in democratic form) have less

> > interest

> > > in

> > > > > common realities and must have noticed how diversity is

the

> > base

> > > > for

> > > > > unanimity otherwise for unity.Secularity is attached more

> > > > important

> > > > > than catholocism.In reality groups and associations tend

to

> > > > operate

> > > > > in a limited way than to vastness.Ethinicism,though

endured

> > but

> > > > not

> > > > > whole heartedly.Insecurity in life is difficult

perspective

> to

> > > > > control.So humans can not be differentiated as a result

from

> > > > animal

> > > > > kingdom,though as homosapiens.

> > > > > > People mind tomorrow for materialistic purposes but

not

> > for

> > > > > brooding over common realities.This is hard fact of life.

> > > > > > Given a push and drive the cultures,races, and

politics

> > > could

> > > > > have been scanned of the past,present and future.Immediate

> > > > concerns

> > > > > were not of things that can easily be discerned but for

> > chasing

> > > > > lagoons.

> > > > > > That's how the world is mystic!Jyotish therefore has

to

> > > > > transcend from obvuous things to mtaphysical aspects be it

> > > > > spirtual,philosophical and less sour religeous realities.

> > > > > > In the univesrse what scores is not unlimited vastness

> but

> > > > > limited approach of desh and kaalmaan perspectives.More on

> > > > specifics?

> > > > > Always jyotishis were ordained for lesser things be it a

> > > > > materialtistic things but certainly of things immediate

> > > > > importance.Though cultures transform but less fast and

races

> > > > mutate

> > > > > but again slow and affiliations particularly political

> > transcend

> > > > > takes generations to pass.

> > > > > > regards

> > > > > > krishnan

> > > > > > rohiniranjan <rrgb@> wrote:

> > > > > > Each of us, individuals that we are, have a very

> different

> > > > view

> > > > > of

> > > > > > the scope of jyotish, as a divinatory craft and of other

> > > > > associated

> > > > > > facets of it. Some of us view it as a means to

understand

> > the

> > > > > > reality that surrounds and pervades through us, perhaps

an

> > > > > > additional mean to others that are available to us,

> > including

> > > > > logic

> > > > > > and reason. Others may seek it as an alternative and

some

> > sort

> > > > of

> > > > > a

> > > > > > direct communication-line to God and His/Her plan for us

> and

> > > > this

> > > > > > reality. Philosophers would chime in and say that both

are

> > > > > possible

> > > > > > in this unfathomable quantum reality.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regardless of what one ideally visualizes for jyotish

and

> > its

> > > > > > capability in a practical/deliverable sense (without the

> aid

> > > of

> > > > > > intuition and other spiritual gifts) -- what does

jyotish

> in

> > > the

> > > > > > hands of commonplace, regular practitioners and students

> > (us!)

> > > > > > actually is capable of delivering demonstrably and not

> just

> > in

> > > > > some

> > > > > > flash of inspiration?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We have discussed jyotish in the context of worldly and

> > > tangible

> > > > > > things and events: marriage, sickness, money,

occupation,

> > > > > education,

> > > > > > etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We often wander into realms that are less tangible:

> natures,

> > > > one's

> > > > > > thoughts and motivations, sometimes corroborated, often

> > > surmised

> > > > > and

> > > > > > not really confirmed!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And even more ethereal realms: Ishta devatas, moksha or

> not,

> > > how

> > > > > > many more janmas would I take, what was I in my last

> birth,

> > > what

> > > > > > will I be in my next birth? Who was my daughter to me in

> my

> > > last

> > > > > > birth? Who will my father be when he would be reborn?

> > > Jyotishis,

> > > > > if

> > > > > > not jyotish, always have an answer!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And with such prowess, I would think, it should be easy

to

> > > > figure

> > > > > > out and explain through astrological logic, things so

> > obvious,

> > > > so

> > > > > > rigid in many cases, with nearly no uncertainty and

> > ambiguity:

> > > > > > Things such as gender, race, religion and political

> > > affiliation!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Such stark and commonplace realities which hardly can be

> > > doubted

> > > > > > about should be easy as pie for jyotish to discern, as

> they

> > > say

> > > > in

> > > > > > India, 'baanyeyn haath kaa khel (english translation

would

> > be:

> > > I

> > > > > can

> > > > > > do this with my right hand tied behind my back!).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Given a set of birthdata, one should be able to tell the

> > > gender,

> > > > > > religion, race (we will leave the caste of birth, and

> > > political

> > > > > > affiliation for later!), easily -- at least as easily as

> > some

> > > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > > ethereal and undefinable attributes such as devatas that

> we

> > > have

> > > > > > been discussing and hearing about.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Comments, volunteers?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rohiniranjan

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY

> AND

> > > > RELISH

> > > > > THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS.

> > > > > >

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