Re:Charts affecting others(Gauranga)

July 1, 2001

Aum Namah Shivaya!

Namaste Gauranga,

Speaking of karma, at the outset I have to state that we are entering

the most enigmatic of all areas and hence some things might always be

partially unsolved. Prarabdha vs Purushardha is debatable for the

greatest minds too. It is not possible to say anything with 100%

certainty. Having said this let me give *my views based on my

studies.

When I wrote that

---

>The charts of parents, children, siblings, country etc DO NOT AFFECT

>the individual chart. They only show INTER-RELATED destinies. We are

born in a family, country etc by virtue of our karmas. We get exactly

what we deserve. It is of course a different matter that astrologers

read other family members' charts to get points that they failed to

read in the individual chart itself. What we have either overlooked

or misread or underestimated in the native's chart sometimes hits us

on the face in the chart of a family member. But when we come back

and see again, it is clear in the original chart itself. Luck or bad

luck cannot be attributed to the entry of a new member into the

>family. No use blaming a Moola nakshatra girl for the father-in-

>law's death. His own chart would indicate his death anyway.

I had a few points in mind.

1. Look at the following quotations. They were made with a good

intention by the author of the post but COULD be misleading to many

beginners.

>In the following yogas, it is shown that someone as distant as the

>elder/younger brother of the spouse can be killed by the owner's

>chart as a result of marriage.

>BPHS 94 10. A girl born in Jyeshta Nakshatra destroys (is the cause

>of death of) the elder brother of her husband, and a girl born in

>fourth quarter of Vishakha Nakshatra destroys (is the cause of

>death of) her husband's younger brother.

>BPHS 94 11-13. A boy or girl born in the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th quarter

of

>Ashlesha Nakshatra destroys his/her mother-in-law and a boy or a

>girl born in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd quarter of Mula Nakshatra becomes the

>destroyer (cause of death of his/her father-in-law. Therefore,

>suitable measures, as may be possible within one's means, should be

>taken at the time of the marriage of such boys and girls. There

>will be no evil effect if the husband has no elder brothers.

I have come across many people (non-astrologers as well as half baked

astrologers) in South India who read such points in the local

panchangas and armed with such ill-conceived ideas wreck havoc. While

many innocent girls are blamed for no fault of theirs, others get

rejected just on the basis of Moola nakshatra! There also seems to be

another belief that a new entry into the family (like a daughter-in-

law or a new born baby) has brought luck or bad luck based on certain

changes in their lives. Every good astrologer would agree that in all

such cases their own dasha-antardasha etc would reflect the changes.

Attributing good luck to a new entry may perhaps be allowed since it

is not harmful as long as it makes them happy. But the negative side

of it is very saddening. Luck or bad luck cannot be attributed to the

entry of a new member into the family. No use blaming a Moola

nakshatra girl for the father-in-law's death. His own chart would

indicate his death anyway. Moreover we all agree that BPHS is

incomplete in its present form. It is hard to definitely say anything

except from an actual experience of what works. Of course I don't

doubt Parashara's authority. But I doubt the parrot like

repetition

of verses literally. I doubt the indiscriminate use of verses. Would

it be wise to allow misconceptions (even unwittingly by making

statements which are misinterpreted by beginners) like Moola

nakshatra spoil the lives of innocent girls? An astrologer has

tremendous responsibility. He can make bad karma by even correct

predictions if his predictions result in unhappiness to others. This

doesn't mean that a negative prediction should not be given.

Counselling is meant to make life better, not worse. How many

astrologers realise how much unhappiness they cause to people, how

much more suffering they create by their irresponsible (though correct

at times)predictions?

2. Most often the events that we read in others' charts CAN be

read in the individual's chart. We are born in a family, country

etc

by virtue of our karmas. We get exactly what we deserve. It is of

course a different matter that astrologers read other family members'

charts to get points that they failed to read in the individual chart

itself. What we have either overlooked or misread or underestimated

in the native's chart sometimes hits us on the face in the chart of a

family member. But when we come back and see again, it is clear in

the original chart itself.

3.

>Parasara says that upto the age of 24 the longevity of the native

>cannot be fixed, as it may be influenced by the karmic reactions of

>the parents, This means that even in the chart does not have

>indications for Balarishta, if the parents' chart indicates early

>loss of child, it may happen. This would hint at the possibility of

>the parents' chart (or parents' karma) infuencing the chart

>of the native, isn't it?

The actual verse is reproduced below.

BPHS 9.2. "Evils causing premature end (Janmaarishta) exist up to the

24th year of one's age. Hence, no definite calculation of life span

should be made till such year of age."

There is no actual reference to the *parents' karmas* by

*Parashara*

in this context. I feel that the main point that should be taken here

is the advice about not making any calculation of life span till one

crosses 24 years. In other words we are not allowed to make any

*definite calculations of life span for children* in general,

IRRESPECTIVE of their parents' charts. As you are aware there is

no

consensus of opinion even among classical authors whether it is 12 or

24 years that should be taken as the cut off point. Venkatesa (

Sarvartha Chintamani) and Vaidyanatha ( Jataka Parijata) suggest 12

years instead. The reason quoted by *Vaidyanatha* is that the sins of

the parents affect their children upto 12 years. I myself follow the

rule of not *attempting to calculate the life span till *12 years. Of

course it is *helpful to look into the charts of the parents to get

more tools of information.

Let us assume that the mother's chart indicates loss of a child

during a particular period . How did the astrologer arrive at this

point? Using her natal chart he studied her Prarabdha through her

*Birth time. When was the child actually born to her? Much later than

her own birth date. If it was already destined that she would lose a

child and later if a child is born to her and dies, wasn't it the

child's karma too that he would die premature? Otherwise why

would he

take birth as her child? We are born in a family, country etc by

virtue of our karmas. We get exactly what we deserve. So in other

words even before the child was even born born to her, it was

predestined that *her child would die. A soul with whom she had the

binding of karmic debt (runaanubandhana) is then born to her. But

this child already had it in his karmic account that in this birth he

would die a premature death. The child didn't die *as a result* of

the mother's karmas, but was only born to a mother with whom he

shared that kind of Karmic debt!

If it had been the fresh sins committed through freewill by the

parents in this life after his birth that resulted in the premature

death, you wouldn't find it in the mother's natal chart. But

if it is

in the *mother's chart (her date of birth) that the indication of

premature death of the child was found, it means that it is the

child's own karmas that made him take birth through her ( his

date

of birth is much later than hers). Hence even in cases where the

mother's chart indicates loss of a child, it ONLY SHOWS

INTERRELATED

DESTINIES. There is no such thing as one chart overriding the other

or even influencing the other. Verses quoted about the effects of

other family members, at best only prove the nature of interrelated

destinies, but do not prove conclusively that parents' charts can

override or influence the child's chart *against the child's own

karmas.

I would like to make one more observation about longevity. This is

the toughest area for any astrologer. With due respect to all the

great astrologers, I am yet to meet an astrologer who can predict

death definitely all or most of the time. Different methods yield

different results. All the methods are no doubt useful some way or

the other. With a very good understanding of the principles behind

the methods, a very good astrologer may perhaps hope to be 70%

correct in matters related to longevity(I am not talking of Prashna

here. Prashna gives very good results if the astrologer knows where

to look for). A post-mortem analysis can be done on anything and

results attributed to anything picked from the ocean of vedic

astrology. Do we have a consistent method which can be used to

*predict* and not retrospectively? Death is another function of

Mahakala the great god of Time. An astrologer who understands death

has gone beyond human limitations, beyond Time (Kala). He is indeed a

Yogi. Due to many such reasons, quotations related to longevity may

not be of much help in inferring anything till our current

understanding improves.

Karma works in many ways. If I eat in someone's house I partake

of

some of his karma in earning the money that was used to buy the food.

Feeding spiritual aspirants has been a custom in India. When we feed

a sadhu part of our sins gets burnt. Likewise part of his sadhana

power goes to nullify the householders sins or in raising the merit

(punya) of the householder. Yet the very desire to serve mendicants

is indicative of good samskaras. Samskaras are a subtle form of

Sanchita (total accumulated karma of all lives). While the chart

indicates Prarabdha, the samskaras indicate Sanchita. Blessings and

the company of saints do not happen accidentally. They are indicative

of some good karmas in the past. Hence even this happens due to

one's

own karma. In the hands of a competent astrologer everything can be

traced to one's OWN karma. Whether or not the astrologer is

competent

in tracing the karmas and samskaras from the chart, is just

reflective of his own expertise. It is possible to read from an

individual's chart whatever we read from his relatives'

charts.

Destinies are only interrelated not overriding. And more so in vital

matters like marriage and death.

May the truth set us free,

Satya

PS. I understand that the verses quoted by Alex were done with the

right intentions. Yet it is possible to misread or misuse those very

verses and some people actually do. To avoid such a possibility and

also to lay the other side of the coin clearly, I referred to them. I

do not intend to offend anyone. Moreover I don't agree with the

view

that charts of others can be overriding. I beg to differ. Those who

want to know more about the enigma of Karma can refer to my post

number # 8157 the article Karma. It is based on a study of the sacred

texts as well as the teachings of many saints. Last but not the least

it is also based on a study of Jyotish.

July 2, 2001

JAYA JAGANNATHA!

Dear Satya,

Namaste.

Your thoughts are very nice, but I think that one of your statements

remained unprooved, i.e. that in all cases of Baalarishta, for example, the

early death will be definitely shown in the child's chart also, and that

there may be no cases when the early death is shown onyl in the parents'

chart. I'm trying to make the point more technical, rahter than

philosophical, althopugh they are interlinked.

But if taken philosophically, the question boils down to the interrelation

of karma adn free will. If free will exists, then how much are we able to

exercise it? Are we abel to inlfuence only our own lives or the lives of

others as well? In the Srimad BHgavaatam it is indicated that Parikshit had

the power to reverse Shringi's curse, but he voluntarily accepted it, i.e.

he accepted the influence of a weaker will upon his stronger will. Even this

may be the case sometimes. I think that the astrological solution to the

problem lies in the following:

All of us experience that any reading in a chart may indicate different

options. For example Mars in the 8th could give cuts, burns and accidents or

operations as well. So how do we decide which one will transpire? It might

well be that all the opportunities are there, but the final manifestation

depends on the individual's karmic state at the moment, which could be

pinpointed from a Prashna chart. It is also well known that analysing a

chart in retrospective, i.e. after the event has actually occurred, is much

easier than to identify the event exactly before its occurence. This needs a

good deal of intuition or Divya Drishti besides technincal knowledge of

chart reading, which, as I have pointed before, reveal many different

options for anu time fragment in the native's life.

So my idea would be that the amount of influence flowing from one person to

the other would be indicated by the strength of the significations for a

particular event in a chart. For example, if a mother's chart strongly shows

the loss of a child, while the child's chart would reveal Baalarishta only

after prolonged scrutiny, we can be lead to a conclusion that the death

happened under a strong influence of the mother's karma. Therefore we should

alos take into attention the strength of a certain indication in a chart.

Maharishi Parashara and Jaimini give different tools for comparing the

strengths of certain indications in a chart, like Drishti Cheshta,

Vimsopaka, Amsa Bala, Ashtakavarga Bala etc. We should learn to use them and

give the reading accordingly. It is also interesting to consider D-40 and

D-45, which are directly connected with the karma coming from paternal andm

maternal line.

Yours,

Gauranga Das Vedic Astrologer

<gauranga

Phone: +36-309-140-839

Jyotish Remedies:

WWW.BRIHASPATI.NET

>

> Aum Namah Shivaya!

>

> Namaste Gauranga,

>

> Speaking of karma, at the outset I have to state that we are entering

> the most enigmatic of all areas and hence some things might always be

> partially unsolved. Prarabdha vs Purushardha is debatable for the

> greatest minds too. It is not possible to say anything with 100%

> certainty. Having said this let me give *my views based on my

> studies.

>

> When I wrote that

> ---

> >The charts of parents, children, siblings, country etc DO NOT AFFECT

> >the individual chart. They only show INTER-RELATED destinies. We are

> born in a family, country etc by virtue of our karmas. We get exactly

> what we deserve. It is of course a different matter that astrologers

> read other family members' charts to get points that they failed to

> read in the individual chart itself. What we have either overlooked

> or misread or underestimated in the native's chart sometimes hits us

> on the face in the chart of a family member. But when we come back

> and see again, it is clear in the original chart itself. Luck or bad

> luck cannot be attributed to the entry of a new member into the

> >family. No use blaming a Moola nakshatra girl for the father-in-

> >law's death. His own chart would indicate his death anyway.

>

> I had a few points in mind.

>

> 1. Look at the following quotations. They were made with a good

> intention by the author of the post but COULD be misleading to many

> beginners.

>

> >In the following yogas, it is shown that someone as distant as the

> >elder/younger brother of the spouse can be killed by the owner's

> >chart as a result of marriage.

>

> >BPHS 94 10. A girl born in Jyeshta Nakshatra destroys (is the cause

> >of death of) the elder brother of her husband, and a girl born in

> >fourth quarter of Vishakha Nakshatra destroys (is the cause of

> >death of) her husband's younger brother.

>

> >BPHS 94 11-13. A boy or girl born in the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th quarter

> of

> >Ashlesha Nakshatra destroys his/her mother-in-law and a boy or a

> >girl born in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd quarter of Mula Nakshatra becomes the

> >destroyer (cause of death of his/her father-in-law. Therefore,

> >suitable measures, as may be possible within one's means, should be

> >taken at the time of the marriage of such boys and girls. There

> >will be no evil effect if the husband has no elder brothers.

>

> I have come across many people (non-astrologers as well as half baked

> astrologers) in South India who read such points in the local

> panchangas and armed with such ill-conceived ideas wreck havoc. While

> many innocent girls are blamed for no fault of theirs, others get

> rejected just on the basis of Moola nakshatra! There also seems to be

> another belief that a new entry into the family (like a daughter-in-

> law or a new born baby) has brought luck or bad luck based on certain

> changes in their lives. Every good astrologer would agree that in all

> such cases their own dasha-antardasha etc would reflect the changes.

> Attributing good luck to a new entry may perhaps be allowed since it

> is not harmful as long as it makes them happy. But the negative side

> of it is very saddening. Luck or bad luck cannot be attributed to the

> entry of a new member into the family. No use blaming a Moola

> nakshatra girl for the father-in-law's death. His own chart would

> indicate his death anyway. Moreover we all agree that BPHS is

> incomplete in its present form. It is hard to definitely say anything

> except from an actual experience of what works. Of course I don't

> doubt Parashara's authority. But I doubt the parrot like

> repetition

> of verses literally. I doubt the indiscriminate use of verses. Would

> it be wise to allow misconceptions (even unwittingly by making

> statements which are misinterpreted by beginners) like Moola

> nakshatra spoil the lives of innocent girls? An astrologer has

> tremendous responsibility. He can make bad karma by even correct

> predictions if his predictions result in unhappiness to others. This

> doesn't mean that a negative prediction should not be given.

> Counselling is meant to make life better, not worse. How many

> astrologers realise how much unhappiness they cause to people, how

> much more suffering they create by their irresponsible (though correct

> at times)predictions?

>

> 2. Most often the events that we read in others' charts CAN be

> read in the individual's chart. We are born in a family, country

> etc

> by virtue of our karmas. We get exactly what we deserve. It is of

> course a different matter that astrologers read other family members'

> charts to get points that they failed to read in the individual chart

> itself. What we have either overlooked or misread or underestimated

> in the native's chart sometimes hits us on the face in the chart of a

> family member. But when we come back and see again, it is clear in

> the original chart itself.

>

> 3.

>

> >Parasara says that upto the age of 24 the longevity of the native

> >cannot be fixed, as it may be influenced by the karmic reactions of

> >the parents, This means that even in the chart does not have

> >indications for Balarishta, if the parents' chart indicates early

> >loss of child, it may happen. This would hint at the possibility of

> >the parents' chart (or parents' karma) infuencing the chart

> >of the native, isn't it?

>

> The actual verse is reproduced below.

>

> BPHS 9.2. "Evils causing premature end (Janmaarishta) exist up to the

> 24th year of one's age. Hence, no definite calculation of life span

> should be made till such year of age."

>

> There is no actual reference to the *parents' karmas* by

> *Parashara*

> in this context. I feel that the main point that should be taken here

> is the advice about not making any calculation of life span till one

> crosses 24 years. In other words we are not allowed to make any

> *definite calculations of life span for children* in general,

> IRRESPECTIVE of their parents' charts. As you are aware there is

> no

> consensus of opinion even among classical authors whether it is 12 or

> 24 years that should be taken as the cut off point. Venkatesa (

> Sarvartha Chintamani) and Vaidyanatha ( Jataka Parijata) suggest 12

> years instead. The reason quoted by *Vaidyanatha* is that the sins of

> the parents affect their children upto 12 years. I myself follow the

> rule of not *attempting to calculate the life span till *12 years. Of

> course it is *helpful to look into the charts of the parents to get

> more tools of information.

>

> Let us assume that the mother's chart indicates loss of a child

> during a particular period . How did the astrologer arrive at this

> point? Using her natal chart he studied her Prarabdha through her

> *Birth time. When was the child actually born to her? Much later than

> her own birth date. If it was already destined that she would lose a

> child and later if a child is born to her and dies, wasn't it the

> child's karma too that he would die premature? Otherwise why

> would he

> take birth as her child? We are born in a family, country etc by

> virtue of our karmas. We get exactly what we deserve. So in other

> words even before the child was even born born to her, it was

> predestined that *her child would die. A soul with whom she had the

> binding of karmic debt (runaanubandhana) is then born to her. But

> this child already had it in his karmic account that in this birth he

> would die a premature death. The child didn't die *as a result* of

> the mother's karmas, but was only born to a mother with whom he

> shared that kind of Karmic debt!

>

> If it had been the fresh sins committed through freewill by the

> parents in this life after his birth that resulted in the premature

> death, you wouldn't find it in the mother's natal chart. But

> if it is

> in the *mother's chart (her date of birth) that the indication of

> premature death of the child was found, it means that it is the

> child's own karmas that made him take birth through her ( his

> date

> of birth is much later than hers). Hence even in cases where the

> mother's chart indicates loss of a child, it ONLY SHOWS

> INTERRELATED

> DESTINIES. There is no such thing as one chart overriding the other

> or even influencing the other. Verses quoted about the effects of

> other family members, at best only prove the nature of interrelated

> destinies, but do not prove conclusively that parents' charts can

> override or influence the child's chart *against the child's own

> karmas.

>

> I would like to make one more observation about longevity. This is

> the toughest area for any astrologer. With due respect to all the

> great astrologers, I am yet to meet an astrologer who can predict

> death definitely all or most of the time. Different methods yield

> different results. All the methods are no doubt useful some way or

> the other. With a very good understanding of the principles behind

> the methods, a very good astrologer may perhaps hope to be 70%

> correct in matters related to longevity(I am not talking of Prashna

> here. Prashna gives very good results if the astrologer knows where

> to look for). A post-mortem analysis can be done on anything and

> results attributed to anything picked from the ocean of vedic

> astrology. Do we have a consistent method which can be used to

> *predict* and not retrospectively? Death is another function of

> Mahakala the great god of Time. An astrologer who understands death

> has gone beyond human limitations, beyond Time (Kala). He is indeed a

> Yogi. Due to many such reasons, quotations related to longevity may

> not be of much help in inferring anything till our current

> understanding improves.

>

> Karma works in many ways. If I eat in someone's house I partake

> of

> some of his karma in earning the money that was used to buy the food.

> Feeding spiritual aspirants has been a custom in India. When we feed

> a sadhu part of our sins gets burnt. Likewise part of his sadhana

> power goes to nullify the householders sins or in raising the merit

> (punya) of the householder. Yet the very desire to serve mendicants

> is indicative of good samskaras. Samskaras are a subtle form of

> Sanchita (total accumulated karma of all lives). While the chart

> indicates Prarabdha, the samskaras indicate Sanchita. Blessings and

> the company of saints do not happen accidentally. They are indicative

> of some good karmas in the past. Hence even this happens due to

> one's

> own karma. In the hands of a competent astrologer everything can be

> traced to one's OWN karma. Whether or not the astrologer is

> competent

> in tracing the karmas and samskaras from the chart, is just

> reflective of his own expertise. It is possible to read from an

> individual's chart whatever we read from his relatives'

> charts.

> Destinies are only interrelated not overriding. And more so in vital

> matters like marriage and death.

>

> May the truth set us free,

> Satya

>

> PS. I understand that the verses quoted by Alex were done with the

> right intentions. Yet it is possible to misread or misuse those very

> verses and some people actually do. To avoid such a possibility and

> also to lay the other side of the coin clearly, I referred to them. I

> do not intend to offend anyone. Moreover I don't agree with the

> view

> that charts of others can be overriding. I beg to differ. Those who

> want to know more about the enigma of Karma can refer to my post

> number # 8157 the article Karma. It is based on a study of the sacred

> texts as well as the teachings of many saints. Last but not the least

> it is also based on a study of Jyotish.

>

> ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

_______

Get your free @ address at

July 3, 2001

Aum Namah Shivaya!

Dear Gauranga,

Namaste.

I will address each of the points raised in your post separately.

First I will deal with Prarabdha (destiny) Vs Purushardha (freewill)

since it is the philosophical basis and also because I can then

address the technical points without reference to the philosophy.

>But if taken philosophically, the question boils down to the

>interrelation of karma adn free will. If free will exists, then how

>much are we able to exercise it? Are we abel to inlfuence only our

>own lives or the lives of others as well?

Prarabdha Vs Purushardha

To a devotee (bhakta) Prarabdha is the Will of God. The devotee

(Bhakta) sees only Prarabdha. In contrast a Gnani who has realized

the truth as "Aham Brahmasmi", sees only Purushartha. Both

are

correct for these are two sides of the same coin. The Bhakta

(Devotee) feels it is all Prarabdha only. Yet there is no fatalism in

this. Prarabdha is only Purusharta (efforts born of free will) of

previous births. Purushartha combined with Prarabdha brings effects.

A man who is sick has to take the medicine (Purushartha) and leave

the results to Prarabdha. Yet all patients who take the medicine are

not cured. Those who get cured have it in their Prarabdha to get

cured taking a medicine. The same with remedial measures. If

Prarabdha is so strong, why did the sages

speak of Purushardha? How are we to reconcile the references to

Purushardha? Why does Vasishta advocate Purushartha to Sri Rama in

the Yoga Vasishta. We are neither totally bound by destiny nor are we

totally free. We have limited freedom like a cow that has been tied

to a post in a field with a rope. It can move freely, but only within

the limits of the field. We have limited freedom depending upon how

much we can stretch our Karma. Prarabdha is strong because it is the

result of many lives. Hence Purushardha (free will) also has its role

BUT only over MANY lives. Free will of one life is hardly anything in

mundane matters. How much freedom (svatantrya) do we really have? As

Swamy Sivananda said, "You have no Bhoga-svatantrya (freedom to

determine the result of action) but you have Karma-Svatantrya

(freedom to determine the course of action)". In other words, the

only area where we have a choice, is the present. Irrespective of the

results, one should carry on with his duties, surrendering to the

Lord. Most often we may not have freedom to determine the results,

but we are totally free to determine the course of action. By moving

in the right direction according to Dharma, one can alter the course

of the future (future lives). The situations that we find ourselves

in, are due to Prarabdha, over which we have no control. But we have

freedom as far as our reaction to the situation is concerned. Can one

go beyond karma? One cannot go beyond karma, but one can go beyond

the *results of karma. The freewill that the scriptures refer to is

generally this kind of freewill, the will to be happy or unhappy. The

external situations are a result of Prarabdha, indicated by the

planets. But whether we choose to suffer or not, how we react to the

sotuation, is our freewill. This is exactly the same difference

between pain and suffering. Ramana Maharshi was operated for a

tumour, he was asked whether he had no pain since he remained calm

even with no anesthetic. He replied that the pain was there, but

there was no suffering. As astrologers we are studying Prarabdha. The

chart gives us an access to one's Prarabdha. It is just a tool

through which we try to understand the individual's Prarabdha.

After

satisfying ourselves that we have tried all that we know, we have to

predict. But what is the use of a correct but unhappy prediction if

it adds to the suffering? It is here that Purushardha's role

comes. We

counsel the person about how he could react. We inspire the person

with spiritual truths, truths that can help the person to be

detached, to see life as a benediction, that it is still possible to

be happy.

Once it happened with a client. I had nothing positive to offer her

about the immediate future, after studying the chart closely. Very

pitiable state indeed. It was one of those times when an astrologer

feels like giving up astrology because of the unhappy things that he

has to convey. I did some predictions for just 10 minutes, saw that

she was going to breakdown, she had been through a terrible period. I

then talked to her for one hour. During this time I talked nothing

about her chart. I chose to share with her some ideas from the

scriptures in a non-religious language. Vedanta can be a source of

great strength if presented properly. She was beaming at the end,

very joyful. After that I met her in some meetings at a local

organization. She told me that the reading helped her to become

stronger, to be happy internally no matter what. Some sentences went

straight to her heart. Last time I met the tropical astrologer who

referred her to me, she told me that the lady was so inspired that

she was planning to print some T-shirts with the sentences that

inspired her and made it possible to be happy inspite of the

circumstances. I think that this is the role of an astrologer. To

study the Prarabdha through the chart and help the client to realize

the role of freewill, the will to go beyond the results of karma.

Other than this there is no such thing as freewill to divert karmas

or even have 5 options for any particular combination. I have seen

some Western astrologers who were learning vedic, saying that a

particular combination in the

5th house had to affect any area of the 5th house. That it was within

the freewill of the person to choose whether it would affect the

children or education or something else! There is no such thing. If

the astrologer knows how to read it will be reasonably clear which

area it actually manifests.

>All of us experience that any reading in a chart may indicate

>different options. For example Mars in the 8th could give cuts,

>burns and accidents or operations as well. So how do we decide which

>one will transpire?

Does a reading in a chart indicate many options? Or is it possible to

zoom in?

As you had written Mars in the eighth in a chart could indicate cuts,

burns, accidents, surgeries, or even loss by theft. Why is it said

so? The 8th house signifies accidents, death, major fights, danger

from enemies or even robbers and any other disturbance, difficulty,

defeat, insult, calamity or shock, that is stressful enough to have a

bearing on the longevity (and thereby even suicide). Mars being a

dry, fiery, masculine and malefic graha, he can indicate any of the

above if placed in the eighth. But that is not everything. Isn't

it

possible to eliminate some of the above with a little work? Again for

instance Mars is said to indicate a barber, butcher or a surgeon. No

doubt all of them use a sharp instrument and also share an unpleasant

job. But other planets help to pick the right one. A barber removes

hair(Saturn) and brings beauty (venus). A butcher kills (stronger

Saturn than venus) an animal (venus) of course using a sharp

instrument (Mars). On the other hand a surgeon uses the sharp

instrument to end the trouble (tumour, cyst etc) and thereby give

life (sun). His action being more of a life-giving (sun) nature, one

would expect Sun also to play a key role here. Coming back to Mars in

the 8th, isn't it possible similiarly, to refine it further by

using

nakshatras, aspects (and subs if one is open to this wonderful

concept) etc? Generally, surgery is done for preventive or corrective

purposes. Almost always it is preceded by some actual sickness or

health problem. If not atleast it is related to one. So often it is

not that difficult to distinguish between a surgery and any other

signification. A major accident or surgery involves hospitalization.

So wouldn't the 12th house have a role in this case? It is

possible

to refine the prediction with the help of the other planets

influencing by nakshatras, aspects (the degree aspects popular in

Western astrology find place in some form even in Tajika;they

actually work well), signs etc. A rough guide based on other

influences on Mars, would be as following.

Sun's malefic influence -- Inflammations, fire

Moon – Rashness leading to accidents, quarrels, bleeding

Mercury – Loss by theft, being a victim of swindling, deceit (at

its

worst even Murder is indicated; a strong mars under an influence of

his Mercury, worst enemy is like a warrior provoked in the battle

field)

Venus – Venereal diseases

Saturn – theft, murder, some inflammations which leave signs on

the

skin, more cruel cuts etc

Of course we could err in our judgement when it comes to a cut, burn

or accident since all of them involve personal injury (actually a

cut, burn, or a vehicular accident are all accidental and hence are

accidents in that sense, unless suicidal). But differentiating

between an injury, surgery, inflammation and robbery is not

impossible. Such refinement IS possible by the use of nakshatras as

Satyacharya or any modern author like Meena or Krishnamurthi suggest.

But in KP the use of subs refines it further. Those who don't use

the

subs can still get a lot of refinement by using the nakshatras alone.

Don't the nakshatras distinguish Vedic astrology from Western?

Isn't

the lunar zodiac as ancient as most other vedic teachings? So why

don't we use it more than we do generally? A simple instance of

how

nakshatras add refinement. The 6th house indicates many things like

sickness, employees, debts, subordinates, pets and maternal uncle.

How do we know when exactly to use the 6th to mean the maternal

uncle? A planet in the 6th in the nakshatra of a planet in the 1st

house brings danger (sometimes even death) to maternal uncle. Why? In

general planets in the lagna can bring danger to maternal uncle

(Maternal uncle is seen in the 6th and lagna is 8th to 6th.) So any

planet in the lagna can be bad for the maternal uncle. But the

planets in the nakshatra of such a planet are more stronger to give

the results. And if such a planet is in the 6th, it confirms the

reference to the maternal uncle. Such is the simplicity and beauty of

using the nakshatras. The rashi is only the sthoola level. The

nakshatra is the sukshma level, the jeeva or life. Using both with a

consistent methodology makes matters simpler and more accurate.

>It is also well known that analysing a chart in retrospective, i.e.

>after the event has actually occurred, is much easier than to

>identify the event exactly before its occurence.

Analysing a chart retrospectively is said to be easier not because it

is easier, but because it gives the scope to justify our point by

picking any suitable explanation from the ocean of vedic techniques

with its rules and counter rules. But if one follows a consistent

methodology for both predicting as well as retrospective analysis, it

should be equally difficult or easy. It is for the astrologer to be

intellectually honest and evolve his own methodology choosing

techniques that have worked for him.

>This needs a good deal of intuition or Divya Drishti besides

>technincal knowledge of chart reading, which, as I have pointed

>before, reveal many different options for anu time fragment in the

>native's life.

The role of intuition is undeniable. It plays a role even in the

diagnosis of an illness in a clinic. Even in science great

discoveries had that brilliant "flash" of intuition. But it

is

possible to still practice and teach astrology with an *emphasis on

technique. Intuition comes with sadhana which is a personal choice.

We should inspire the student to do his own sadhana. It ends there.

Too much emphasis on intuition while teaching astrology, can

discourage many brilliant potential students. My emphasis is on

Techniques and Methodologies.

> All of us experience that any reading in a chart may indicate

>different options. So how do we decide which >one will transpire?

>It might well be that all the opportunities are there, but the final

>manifestation depends on the individual's karmic state at the

>moment, which could be pinpointed from a Prashna chart.

It IS true that Prashna indicates the current karmic account. But

that is not the primary reason for using Prashna. Prashna is the

ORACLE OF THE MOMENT. Prashna clearly refers to the question at hand,

the burning problem. Hence it is easier to zoom in onto the point

that we are searching for. There is no need to worry about the

multiple significations. Except for the ease, convenience and

definite reference to the query, all else is same. The process and

principles are the same as those used in natal astrology. As far as

the point about Prashna indicating *current karma and *hence being

the choice is concerned, it is not really so. Most of the time the

efforts of an individual in one lifetime are almost insignificant as

compared to Prarabdha (indicated by the natal chart) which is the

result of many lives. Freewill is significant *only over many lives.

The differences if any between the indications of the natal and

horary charts regarding a particular matter are very minimal. For a

competent astrologer the natal chart is sufficient to confidently

predict the same. It is a different matter that we prefer the Prashna

method for reasons already cited. Another reason for preferring

Prashna is that most natal charts need rectification for the use of

subs or divisional charts and hence it is time consuming and also

unreliable if the rectification is not correct. In contrast the

Prashna method is fast, easy and simple. The oracle of the moment can

be read by Prashna, ruling planets, omens, or even simpler methods

like I Ching, tarot etc. The method may vary. But in all these, it is

the oracle of the moment that works. I don't agree with the

section

of astrologers who feel that methods like tarot, nimitta etc are

inferior and that since it is easy it is meant for lesser brains. It

depends on the interpreter, how well tuned he is to the particular

method. I am myself used to the hard work involved in Vedic

astrology. Even in my late teens I was made to calculate the

divisional charts upto D-16 manually, for every chart that I did. Yet

I have used tools like I Ching and Nimitta with success. But the best

of all is the Ruling planets technique.

Now the main point where we started-

>Parasara says that upto the age of 24 the longevity of the native

>cannot be fixed, as it may be influenced by the karmic reactions of

>the parents.

>So my idea would be that the amount of influence flowing from one

>person to the other would be indicated by the strength of the

>significations for a particular event in a chart. For example, if a

>mother's chart strongly shows the loss of a child, while the child's

>chart would reveal Baalarishta only after prolonged scrutiny, we can

>be lead to a conclusion that the death happened under a strong

>influence of the mother's karma. Therefore we should alos take into

>attention the strength of a certain indication in a chart.

Arishta does not indicate death. Death is one of the extreme evils

which come under arishta. As I already quoted,the actual verse is--

BPHS 9.2. "Evils causing premature end (Janmaarishta is the actual

word)) exist up to the 24th year of one's age. Hence, no definite

calculation of life span should be made till such year of age."

My understanding is that arishtas or evils that *could* be a threat

to the child's life exist till a particular age. So we are advised to

refrain from making any definete calculations till some point.

Parashara doesn't say that it is due to the parents karmas. Authors

like Vaidyanatha (he makes the reference to parents sins) however

scholarly or great cannot be taken as an authority definetely as much

as we would respect a sage's word. There is nothing in the available

literature that suggests that indications of death of a child in a

parents chart cannot be read from the child's chart. As I said at

best it proves only interrelated destinies and not overriding

destinies.

Moreover arishtas dont necessarily mean death. They are evils or

threats. Infact what is popularly known as medical astrology is

nothing but a collection of all about various arisshtas and

afflictions to the chart viewed against basic principles of

astrology.

>Your thoughts are very nice, but I think that one of your statements

>remained unprooved, i.e. that in all cases of Baalarishta, for

>example, the early death will be definitely shown in the child's

>chart also, and that there may be no cases when the early death is

>shown onyl in the parents' chart.

How can I prove unless you give me a chart that doesn't show

indications of early death but the parents's charts show it? If you

have even 3 such charts, please give the details. I am willing to

show what I mean. As I already wrote in my earlier mail, longevity is

the most toughest area of all. No two methods give the same. I do not

profess to know all about death. Yet I am willing to show that in all

cases of premature death, the charts do answer the simple criteria

set by the sages and especially when used with KP.

>It is also interesting to consider D-40 and D-45, which are directly

>connected with the karma coming from paternal and maternal line.

I study the higher vargas out of academic interest. But in all

honesty I haven't found any clear guidelines in the existing

literature on how to use them. The astrologers who have either taught

or inspired me have also shown only till D30 (generally only till

D16). Of course till D12 it is fine. But the higher vargas esp

*beyond D30 continue to elude me. But I have been much more

successful with KP subs. I will be more than happy if someone

demonstrates clearly and consistently on the usage of such higher

vargas such as D-40 and D-45. Could you please write more on the

usage of D-40 AND D-45?

One can achieve a very high level of accuracy using upto even D-12

and KP. In fact one doesn't need divisional charts really if he uses

the subs well. For muself I follow this currently. It gives me very

good results. But I would be very happy to learn anything else that

works. I have written exactly as I feel and know. If our opinions

differ anywhere I hope it would remain limited to the discussion. As

such I respect all methods and every astrologer. I will be happy to

read about what worked for you.

Regards,

Satya

July 3, 2001

satyaketu schrieb:

> My understanding is that arishtas or evils that *could* be a threat

> to the child's life exist till a particular age. So we are advised to

> refrain from making any definete calculations till some point.

> Parashara doesn't say that it is due to the parents karmas. Authors

> like Vaidyanatha (he makes the reference to parents sins) however

> scholarly or great cannot be taken as an authority definetely as much

> as we would respect a sage's word. There is nothing in the available

> literature that suggests that indications of death of a child in a

> parents chart cannot be read from the child's chart. As I said at

> best it proves only interrelated destinies and not overriding

> destinies.

Dear Mr. Satya, namaste!

At first I thought I better refrain from continuing this discussion about

karma, free will and interrelated destinies, but after reading your scholarly

text, I felt compelled to remark the following:

You dismiss Vaidyanatha´s statement (Jataka Parijata - a child´s longevity

may be curtailed due to the sins of the parents) as not authoritative. But

then we can dismiss any astrology book which is not BPHS as not authentic.

What are your criteria for accepting or rejecting a particular authority?

And another question:

In BHPS 84.15 Parashara says that "a woman having lucky marks and a good

character makes the short longevity of her husband prolonged and creates an

environment of happiness" (sulakshanaa sucaritaa api mandaayusham patim

dirghaayusham prakurvanti pramadaashca mudaaspadam).

It has been previously argued that everything is predestined and there cannot

be anything that is not indicated in a chart. If it is not in the chart, it

can never happen.If the chart says long life, the person will live long and

if the chart says short life, the person will die early. So, a husband who is

destined to die early (mandayusham patim) should then get only get a wife who

really makes sure that he dies early.

How come, then, that Prashara says that a husbands short life can be

prolonged if he gets a good wife? If he is mandayusham according to his

chart, destined for short life, how can his wife make him dirghayusham,

longlived. The only explanation I have is that, under certain circumstances,

destiny can be changed or modified by our own propitiatory action or the

beneficial influence of other people.

In my mind, destiny is indeed an exceedingly powerful force which cannot

generally be escaped because it is daiva, the will of God. What God wills is

bound to happen. But at times, through the intervention of a saint or through

our own prayashcitta (spiritual penance) we can pacify God or a god and that

which was destined can be modified. For better by pious action and for worse

by sin. If destiny is irrevocable what is the use of applying the remedial

measures which are recommended by Parashara himself?

regards Arno

July 3, 2001

AUM SRI GURUVE NAMAH

Dear Arno!

I would like to comment on what you said as

"If destiny is irrevocable what is the use of applying the remedial measures

which are recommended by Parashara himself?"

When someone is ill, he goes to a doctor and takes medicine. Some of them

gets cured and some of them don't. Some of them are cured soon and some

after delay. This can be seen in an horoscope as a evil planetary

combination being subdued by acpect of benefics or incoming of benefic

period after a malefic period. Just as the happening of a disease is

indicated in the horoscope, the treatment and the cure is also indicated.

Similar is the remedial measure. Just as the ill fate is indicated in the

chart, the remedies and their effect is also indicated. All who take

remedies don't get the desired result unless it is indicated in the chart.

You might read in COVA, that a pair of lovers came to Pt. Sanjay Rath and

asked for a suitable time for there marriage. Sanjayji saw the disposition

of the Upapada is too bad and the horoscopes are incompatable.He suggested

that they should get married before such and such date.... But as the chart

indicated the misfortune, they couldn't get married between the stipulated

period and the separation happened ultimately.

So we might say that just as the misfortune is indicated in a chart, the

remedies and their effect can also be judged.

Regards

Sarajit Poddar

-

Arno Holzmann <arno.holzmann

Tuesday, July 03, 2001 9:40 PM

Re: [vedic astrology] Re:Charts affecting others(Gauranga)

> satyaketu schrieb:

>

> > My understanding is that arishtas or evils that *could* be a threat

> > to the child's life exist till a particular age. So we are advised to

> > refrain from making any definete calculations till some point.

> > Parashara doesn't say that it is due to the parents karmas. Authors

> > like Vaidyanatha (he makes the reference to parents sins) however

> > scholarly or great cannot be taken as an authority definetely as much

> > as we would respect a sage's word. There is nothing in the available

> > literature that suggests that indications of death of a child in a

> > parents chart cannot be read from the child's chart. As I said at

> > best it proves only interrelated destinies and not overriding

> > destinies.

>

> Dear Mr. Satya, namaste!

>

> At first I thought I better refrain from continuing this discussion about

> karma, free will and interrelated destinies, but after reading your

scholarly

> text, I felt compelled to remark the following:

>

> You dismiss Vaidyanatha´s statement (Jataka Parijata - a child´s longevity

> may be curtailed due to the sins of the parents) as not authoritative. But

> then we can dismiss any astrology book which is not BPHS as not authentic.

> What are your criteria for accepting or rejecting a particular authority?

>

> And another question:

>

> In BHPS 84.15 Parashara says that "a woman having lucky marks and a good

> character makes the short longevity of her husband prolonged and creates

an

> environment of happiness" (sulakshanaa sucaritaa api mandaayusham patim

> dirghaayusham prakurvanti pramadaashca mudaaspadam).

>

> It has been previously argued that everything is predestined and there

cannot

> be anything that is not indicated in a chart. If it is not in the chart,

it

> can never happen.If the chart says long life, the person will live long

and

> if the chart says short life, the person will die early. So, a husband who

is

> destined to die early (mandayusham patim) should then get only get a wife

who

> really makes sure that he dies early.

>

> How come, then, that Prashara says that a husbands short life can be

> prolonged if he gets a good wife? If he is mandayusham according to his

> chart, destined for short life, how can his wife make him dirghayusham,

> longlived. The only explanation I have is that, under certain

circumstances,

> destiny can be changed or modified by our own propitiatory action or the

> beneficial influence of other people.

>

> In my mind, destiny is indeed an exceedingly powerful force which cannot

> generally be escaped because it is daiva, the will of God. What God wills

is

> bound to happen. But at times, through the intervention of a saint or

through

> our own prayashcitta (spiritual penance) we can pacify God or a god and

that

> which was destined can be modified. For better by pious action and for

worse

> by sin. If destiny is irrevocable what is the use of applying the remedial

> measures which are recommended by Parashara himself?

>

> regards Arno

>

> ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

July 4, 2001

Dear Arno,

I will address both your questions separately. First the one on

Freewill and destiny.

KINDS OF KARMA

i. Sanchita Karma or Total Accumulated Karma

This is the vast store of accumulated Karmas of all past lives (as a

human being only). It may be indirectly seen in a man in his

character, his tendencies, aptitudes, inclinations and desires. (this

is what we call samskaras and vasanas)

ii. Prarabdha or Fructifying Karma

That portion of our Karmas allocated to us in this life is called

Prarabdha. It is the fruit of our past actions that are being reaped

in this life. All of Sanchita karma will not be experienced at one

time. Only that portion which has `become ripe' for experiencing in

this life time is Prarabdha. The natal horoscope reveals Prarabdha

only. The time of birth is Prarabdha.

iii. Kriyaman or Current Karma

This is the fresh karma that we do in this life. This is the area

that man has freedom to determine the course of action. This

determines our future lives. This is where the concept of free will

comes. The horary chart reflects both the prarabdha of past lives as

well as the kriyaman of this life. In other words the prashna

(horary) chart is the latest karmic bank statement with regard to the

query! Actually the difference between the natal and horary charts is

minimal since one life freewill is hardly much and counts only in the

long run, thus affecting future lives. Kriyaman karma gets

accumulated and eventually adds to the Sanchita. Thus it affects the

Prarabdha of next lives.

iv. Agami Karma or Future Karma

The karma that is coming, in other words, new actions that you

contemplate as a result of your thoughts, the way you envision the

future, is Agami Karma. Today's plans when executed could become a

reality one day. Planning is Agami while execution is Kriyaman. Thus

Agami (planning) leads to Kriyaman(freshly executed actions of the

present) which becomes Sanchita (accumulated) to later surface as

Prarabdha (destiny). Sanchita karma manifests in two ways. Firstly,

as Prarabdha or the so called destiny, and secondly, as the Samskaras

or tendencies.

Intensity of karma

Karma can be classified into three types based on intensity.

a. Dridha (Fixed or Strong) Karma

b. Adridha (Not Strong/Non Fixed) Karma

c. Dridha – Adridha (Strong/Not Strong or Not Too Strong) Karma

As the name suggests the Dridha Karmas are very difficult or almost

impossible to be changed. Adridha karmas can be easily altered while

Dridha – Adridha can be altered through concentrated efforts.

Generally Upayes or Pariharas (spiritual remedies) are effective in

the 2nd and 3rd types. But to change very strong (Dridha) karma, is

very difficult, practically almost impossible. Either we encounter

obstacles even in implementing the remedies or a life long attempting

of the remedies is required! Change can only occur when the Agami and

Kriyaman Karmas neutralise the mixed or weak karmas. When an

astrologer sees a confluence of factors, he predicts confidently for

he knows that he is looking at Dridha Karma or Fixed Karma.

People belong to the following categories.

1. Those who do Shanti, ward off the troubles and attribute it

to Shanti.

2. Those who do Shanti unknowingly and reap the benefits. When

we do some sadhana, we are already doing some remedial measures

without knowing. Sometimes if you are going to a spiritual place,

some friend of yours accompanies you and also does the

circumambulation etc. Some people donate just because they felt like.

They may be persons belonging to another religion with no idea of

shanti.

3. Those who approach an astrologer, do some remedial measures,

and still suffer. How many people complain that how much ever Shanti

they did, nothing worked!

4. Those who want to do shanti, but face some obstacles in

doing, or obtain wrong advice from an incompetent astrologer, or get

a muhurta but couldn't follow it due to whatever the reasons

5. Those who neither believe nor do shanty, but remain happy

6. Those who don't believe, don't do shanty, and keep suffering

All this depends on whether the karma is strong or not. The

circumstances under which one is placed, one's performing Shanti out

of fear, or for a favour, or unwittingly, are all karmic. In all such

charts there are some benefic influences inspite of the malefic

combinations. But dhridha karmas manifest as strong benefic or

malefic influences only. It is possible for an astrologer to estimate

the intensity of karma by a confluence of factors. Karma works in

many ways. Blessings of saints does not happen by chance. A person is

attracted to spiritual people, places, texts etc by virtue of

samskaras, which are nothing but a different form of Sanchita.