Prarabdha and Purushardha

July 3, 2001

AUM SRI GURUVE NAMAH

Dear Satya!

Thank you for the illustrative mail on Prarabdha and Purushardha. The debate

between the Destiny and free will is continuing from time immemorial and

will continue forever as in the domain of maya or illusion, things are not

clear. Some times something which would seem like prarabdha will look like

purusharsha on some other time.

So many grear persons and maharishis have said about this subject, that I

feel negligible in front of their knowledge and capability. My age is also

not much in comparision to learned members like you. Even then I would like

to share my understanding on this subject.

My thoughts are not much different from what Satyaji has shared. Bhagavat

Gita says that keep doing your karma and don't get attached to the fruits of

action. This is the essential principle of Karma yoga, one of the many paths

to god realisation or self realisation. Hence we understand from Gita that

the ultimate aim of human life is self realisation. However there are many

paths to do that and as mentioned in Gita, they are Bhakti Yoga, Gnana Yoga,

Raja Yoga and Karma Yoga.

The essentials of all the yoga is the same which can be interpreted as

dissolution of the self or the limited ego and thereafter merge with

infinite consciousness and be one with that. This is again same as getting

free from the bondage of life and death.

Human beings take birth due to the accumulation of results of the karma. If

there is no accumulation of the results of the karma, there won't be rebirth

to reap them. The results of karma is only accumulated if one feels himself

as the doer of the action. This is only a mere illusion. The doer is someone

else, however, human beings under the veil of ignorance feels that he is

doing the karma. As a result in the process, the person accumulates the

results of the action (because he perceives that he is doing the karma).

However, if the person disassociates himself from the perception of the

doership, the person gets free from the results of the action as he feels he

has not performed the action. This is clearly indicated in the Gita that one

should keep on doing the karma, without attaching himself to the fruits of

those actions.

As you clearly mentioned, the situations one is in cannot be controlled by

him, but the action he does can be controlled by him. Thus situation we are

in are determined by the prarabdha. However, we must also appreciate the

fact that, the actions we take is based on the urges we have at that moment

and which is in turn guided by the tendencies we have. For illustration, if

one is sattwik, he will not kill anybody, even if he is provoked whereas a

tamasic person could do it. Again these tendencies are the outcome of

repeated actions of previous life and hence is in a way determined. Thus the

freewill is only there to detach ourselves from the results of action.

(However, we may say that only an elevated soul can do it and a tamasik

person cannot do it and hence he has to reap the results of the karma he has

performed).

This would mean that any action per se is not good or bad, but the way the

action is done and the mentality with which it is done could be good or bad

according to the perception that the action is performed for a good cause.

If a souldier kills the enemy he doesn't accumulate bad karma as this is his

dharma whereas if a dacoit kills a person, he will accumulate bad karma. In

any case the person involved are accumulating the results of the karma

because they are perceiving themselves to be the doer of the action, be it

good or bad. A person accumulating good karma will take birth in a good

situation and vice-versa however, he is not free from the cycle of birth

and death.

In order to be free from the cycle of birth and death, one must perceive

himself to be only a instrument in the hands of someone invisible, one who

is supreme and not the doer. He will get rid of the cycle when he is

completely free from the crutches of ego... the illusive self.

The very idea that we can change our future mean that we are attached to the

fruit of action or the results. If we are not attached then why we are

willing for a specific future, good or bad. The very concept of free will

when misimterpreted, mean that we have the power to change our future. This

in a way strenthen the perception of "I", the ego and one's capability to

change the future. Thus in a way it attaches more to the results (i.e.,

better future)......

The essence of Gita is that, one should not expect anything from his

situations and actions but go on doing his own dharma accepting whatever

comes in result. If one expects of a bright future and acts accordingly,

even if he is acting with accordance

of dharma, he will not be free from the actions he performs.....

Moreover, this is only a perception that we can change our future. If the

present karma is determined by the past actions, then the future karma will

be determined by the present karma. This is a long chain of actions, the

preceeding determining the succeeding one, where the possibility of any

intervention comes to change it. Again, this can no way be verified, whether

a particular result we get out of some action is based on our destiny or

free will. The only thing we can do is to surrender and keep performing our

dharma.

Some of these thoughts might not be clear as in many places, I didn't have

proper words to put my thinking to words. I hope things get clear, more and

more, with time.

I remain

With regards to all respected members.

Sarajit Poddar

-

<satyaketu

Tuesday, July 03, 2001 3:48 PM

[vedic astrology] Re:Charts affecting others(Gauranga)

> Aum Namah Shivaya!

>

> Dear Gauranga,

>

> Namaste.

> I will address each of the points raised in your post separately.

> First I will deal with Prarabdha (destiny) Vs Purushardha (freewill)

> since it is the philosophical basis and also because I can then

> address the technical points without reference to the philosophy.

>

> >But if taken philosophically, the question boils down to the

> >interrelation of karma adn free will. If free will exists, then how

> >much are we able to exercise it? Are we abel to inlfuence only our

> >own lives or the lives of others as well?

>

> Prarabdha Vs Purushardha

>

> To a devotee (bhakta) Prarabdha is the Will of God. The devotee

> (Bhakta) sees only Prarabdha. In contrast a Gnani who has realized

> the truth as "Aham Brahmasmi", sees only Purushartha. Both

> are

> correct for these are two sides of the same coin. The Bhakta

> (Devotee) feels it is all Prarabdha only. Yet there is no fatalism in

> this. Prarabdha is only Purusharta (efforts born of free will) of

> previous births. Purushartha combined with Prarabdha brings effects.

> A man who is sick has to take the medicine (Purushartha) and leave

> the results to Prarabdha. Yet all patients who take the medicine are

> not cured. Those who get cured have it in their Prarabdha to get

> cured taking a medicine. The same with remedial measures. If

> Prarabdha is so strong, why did the sages

> speak of Purushardha? How are we to reconcile the references to

> Purushardha? Why does Vasishta advocate Purushartha to Sri Rama in

> the Yoga Vasishta. We are neither totally bound by destiny nor are we

> totally free. We have limited freedom like a cow that has been tied

> to a post in a field with a rope. It can move freely, but only within

> the limits of the field. We have limited freedom depending upon how

> much we can stretch our Karma. Prarabdha is strong because it is the

> result of many lives. Hence Purushardha (free will) also has its role

> BUT only over MANY lives. Free will of one life is hardly anything in

> mundane matters. How much freedom (svatantrya) do we really have? As

> Swamy Sivananda said, "You have no Bhoga-svatantrya (freedom to

> determine the result of action) but you have Karma-Svatantrya

> (freedom to determine the course of action)". In other words, the

> only area where we have a choice, is the present. Irrespective of the

> results, one should carry on with his duties, surrendering to the

> Lord. Most often we may not have freedom to determine the results,

> but we are totally free to determine the course of action. By moving

> in the right direction according to Dharma, one can alter the course

> of the future (future lives). The situations that we find ourselves

> in, are due to Prarabdha, over which we have no control. But we have

> freedom as far as our reaction to the situation is concerned. Can one

> go beyond karma? One cannot go beyond karma, but one can go beyond

> the *results of karma. The freewill that the scriptures refer to is

> generally this kind of freewill, the will to be happy or unhappy. The

> external situations are a result of Prarabdha, indicated by the

> planets. But whether we choose to suffer or not, how we react to the

> sotuation, is our freewill. This is exactly the same difference

> between pain and suffering. Ramana Maharshi was operated for a

> tumour, he was asked whether he had no pain since he remained calm

> even with no anesthetic. He replied that the pain was there, but

> there was no suffering. As astrologers we are studying Prarabdha. The

> chart gives us an access to one's Prarabdha. It is just a tool

> through which we try to understand the individual's Prarabdha.

> After

> satisfying ourselves that we have tried all that we know, we have to

> predict. But what is the use of a correct but unhappy prediction if

> it adds to the suffering? It is here that Purushardha's role

> comes. We

> counsel the person about how he could react. We inspire the person

> with spiritual truths, truths that can help the person to be

> detached, to see life as a benediction, that it is still possible to

> be happy.

> Once it happened with a client. I had nothing positive to offer her

> about the immediate future, after studying the chart closely. Very

> pitiable state indeed. It was one of those times when an astrologer

> feels like giving up astrology because of the unhappy things that he

> has to convey. I did some predictions for just 10 minutes, saw that

> she was going to breakdown, she had been through a terrible period. I

> then talked to her for one hour. During this time I talked nothing

> about her chart. I chose to share with her some ideas from the

> scriptures in a non-religious language. Vedanta can be a source of

> great strength if presented properly. She was beaming at the end,

> very joyful. After that I met her in some meetings at a local

> organization. She told me that the reading helped her to become

> stronger, to be happy internally no matter what. Some sentences went

> straight to her heart. Last time I met the tropical astrologer who

> referred her to me, she told me that the lady was so inspired that

> she was planning to print some T-shirts with the sentences that

> inspired her and made it possible to be happy inspite of the

> circumstances. I think that this is the role of an astrologer. To

> study the Prarabdha through the chart and help the client to realize

> the role of freewill, the will to go beyond the results of karma.

> Other than this there is no such thing as freewill to divert karmas

> or even have 5 options for any particular combination. I have seen

> some Western astrologers who were learning vedic, saying that a

> particular combination in the

> 5th house had to affect any area of the 5th house. That it was within

> the freewill of the person to choose whether it would affect the

> children or education or something else! There is no such thing. If

> the astrologer knows how to read it will be reasonably clear which

> area it actually manifests.

>

> >All of us experience that any reading in a chart may indicate

> >different options. For example Mars in the 8th could give cuts,

> >burns and accidents or operations as well. So how do we decide which

> >one will transpire?

>

> Does a reading in a chart indicate many options? Or is it possible to

> zoom in?

>

> As you had written Mars in the eighth in a chart could indicate cuts,

> burns, accidents, surgeries, or even loss by theft. Why is it said

> so? The 8th house signifies accidents, death, major fights, danger

> from enemies or even robbers and any other disturbance, difficulty,

> defeat, insult, calamity or shock, that is stressful enough to have a

> bearing on the longevity (and thereby even suicide). Mars being a

> dry, fiery, masculine and malefic graha, he can indicate any of the

> above if placed in the eighth. But that is not everything. Isn't

> it

> possible to eliminate some of the above with a little work? Again for

> instance Mars is said to indicate a barber, butcher or a surgeon. No

> doubt all of them use a sharp instrument and also share an unpleasant

> job. But other planets help to pick the right one. A barber removes

> hair(Saturn) and brings beauty (venus). A butcher kills (stronger

> Saturn than venus) an animal (venus) of course using a sharp

> instrument (Mars). On the other hand a surgeon uses the sharp

> instrument to end the trouble (tumour, cyst etc) and thereby give

> life (sun). His action being more of a life-giving (sun) nature, one

> would expect Sun also to play a key role here. Coming back to Mars in

> the 8th, isn't it possible similiarly, to refine it further by

> using

> nakshatras, aspects (and subs if one is open to this wonderful

> concept) etc? Generally, surgery is done for preventive or corrective

> purposes. Almost always it is preceded by some actual sickness or

> health problem. If not atleast it is related to one. So often it is

> not that difficult to distinguish between a surgery and any other

> signification. A major accident or surgery involves hospitalization.

> So wouldn't the 12th house have a role in this case? It is

> possible

> to refine the prediction with the help of the other planets

> influencing by nakshatras, aspects (the degree aspects popular in

> Western astrology find place in some form even in Tajika;they

> actually work well), signs etc. A rough guide based on other

> influences on Mars, would be as following.

>

> Sun's malefic influence -- Inflammations, fire

> Moon - Rashness leading to accidents, quarrels, bleeding

> Mercury - Loss by theft, being a victim of swindling, deceit (at

> its

> worst even Murder is indicated; a strong mars under an influence of

> his Mercury, worst enemy is like a warrior provoked in the battle

> field)

> Venus - Venereal diseases

> Saturn - theft, murder, some inflammations which leave signs on

> the

> skin, more cruel cuts etc

>

> Of course we could err in our judgement when it comes to a cut, burn

> or accident since all of them involve personal injury (actually a

> cut, burn, or a vehicular accident are all accidental and hence are

> accidents in that sense, unless suicidal). But differentiating

> between an injury, surgery, inflammation and robbery is not

> impossible. Such refinement IS possible by the use of nakshatras as

> Satyacharya or any modern author like Meena or Krishnamurthi suggest.

> But in KP the use of subs refines it further. Those who don't use

> the

> subs can still get a lot of refinement by using the nakshatras alone.

> Don't the nakshatras distinguish Vedic astrology from Western?

> Isn't

> the lunar zodiac as ancient as most other vedic teachings? So why

> don't we use it more than we do generally? A simple instance of

> how

> nakshatras add refinement. The 6th house indicates many things like

> sickness, employees, debts, subordinates, pets and maternal uncle.

> How do we know when exactly to use the 6th to mean the maternal

> uncle? A planet in the 6th in the nakshatra of a planet in the 1st

> house brings danger (sometimes even death) to maternal uncle. Why? In

> general planets in the lagna can bring danger to maternal uncle

> (Maternal uncle is seen in the 6th and lagna is 8th to 6th.) So any

> planet in the lagna can be bad for the maternal uncle. But the

> planets in the nakshatra of such a planet are more stronger to give

> the results. And if such a planet is in the 6th, it confirms the

> reference to the maternal uncle. Such is the simplicity and beauty of

> using the nakshatras. The rashi is only the sthoola level. The

> nakshatra is the sukshma level, the jeeva or life. Using both with a

> consistent methodology makes matters simpler and more accurate.

>

> >It is also well known that analysing a chart in retrospective, i.e.

> >after the event has actually occurred, is much easier than to

> >identify the event exactly before its occurence.

>

> Analysing a chart retrospectively is said to be easier not because it

> is easier, but because it gives the scope to justify our point by

> picking any suitable explanation from the ocean of vedic techniques

> with its rules and counter rules. But if one follows a consistent

> methodology for both predicting as well as retrospective analysis, it

> should be equally difficult or easy. It is for the astrologer to be

> intellectually honest and evolve his own methodology choosing

> techniques that have worked for him.

>

> >This needs a good deal of intuition or Divya Drishti besides

> >technincal knowledge of chart reading, which, as I have pointed

> >before, reveal many different options for anu time fragment in the

> >native's life.

>

> The role of intuition is undeniable. It plays a role even in the

> diagnosis of an illness in a clinic. Even in science great

> discoveries had that brilliant "flash" of intuition. But it

> is

> possible to still practice and teach astrology with an *emphasis on

> technique. Intuition comes with sadhana which is a personal choice.

> We should inspire the student to do his own sadhana. It ends there.

> Too much emphasis on intuition while teaching astrology, can

> discourage many brilliant potential students. My emphasis is on

> Techniques and Methodologies.

>

> > All of us experience that any reading in a chart may indicate

> >different options. So how do we decide which >one will transpire?

> >It might well be that all the opportunities are there, but the final

> >manifestation depends on the individual's karmic state at the

> >moment, which could be pinpointed from a Prashna chart.

>

> It IS true that Prashna indicates the current karmic account. But

> that is not the primary reason for using Prashna. Prashna is the

> ORACLE OF THE MOMENT. Prashna clearly refers to the question at hand,

> the burning problem. Hence it is easier to zoom in onto the point

> that we are searching for. There is no need to worry about the

> multiple significations. Except for the ease, convenience and

> definite reference to the query, all else is same. The process and

> principles are the same as those used in natal astrology. As far as

> the point about Prashna indicating *current karma and *hence being

> the choice is concerned, it is not really so. Most of the time the

> efforts of an individual in one lifetime are almost insignificant as

> compared to Prarabdha (indicated by the natal chart) which is the

> result of many lives. Freewill is significant *only over many lives.

> The differences if any between the indications of the natal and

> horary charts regarding a particular matter are very minimal. For a

> competent astrologer the natal chart is sufficient to confidently

> predict the same. It is a different matter that we prefer the Prashna

> method for reasons already cited. Another reason for preferring

> Prashna is that most natal charts need rectification for the use of

> subs or divisional charts and hence it is time consuming and also

> unreliable if the rectification is not correct. In contrast the

> Prashna method is fast, easy and simple. The oracle of the moment can

> be read by Prashna, ruling planets, omens, or even simpler methods

> like I Ching, tarot etc. The method may vary. But in all these, it is

> the oracle of the moment that works. I don't agree with the

> section

> of astrologers who feel that methods like tarot, nimitta etc are

> inferior and that since it is easy it is meant for lesser brains. It

> depends on the interpreter, how well tuned he is to the particular

> method. I am myself used to the hard work involved in Vedic

> astrology. Even in my late teens I was made to calculate the

> divisional charts upto D-16 manually, for every chart that I did. Yet

> I have used tools like I Ching and Nimitta with success. But the best

> of all is the Ruling planets technique.

>

> Now the main point where we started-

>

> >Parasara says that upto the age of 24 the longevity of the native

> >cannot be fixed, as it may be influenced by the karmic reactions of

> >the parents.

> >So my idea would be that the amount of influence flowing from one

> >person to the other would be indicated by the strength of the

> >significations for a particular event in a chart. For example, if a

> >mother's chart strongly shows the loss of a child, while the child's

> >chart would reveal Baalarishta only after prolonged scrutiny, we can

> >be lead to a conclusion that the death happened under a strong

> >influence of the mother's karma. Therefore we should alos take into

> >attention the strength of a certain indication in a chart.

>

> Arishta does not indicate death. Death is one of the extreme evils

> which come under arishta. As I already quoted,the actual verse is--

> BPHS 9.2. "Evils causing premature end (Janmaarishta is the actual

> word)) exist up to the 24th year of one's age. Hence, no definite

> calculation of life span should be made till such year of age."

>

> My understanding is that arishtas or evils that *could* be a threat

> to the child's life exist till a particular age. So we are advised to

> refrain from making any definete calculations till some point.

> Parashara doesn't say that it is due to the parents karmas. Authors

> like Vaidyanatha (he makes the reference to parents sins) however

> scholarly or great cannot be taken as an authority definetely as much

> as we would respect a sage's word. There is nothing in the available

> literature that suggests that indications of death of a child in a

> parents chart cannot be read from the child's chart. As I said at

> best it proves only interrelated destinies and not overriding

> destinies.

> Moreover arishtas dont necessarily mean death. They are evils or

> threats. Infact what is popularly known as medical astrology is

> nothing but a collection of all about various arisshtas and

> afflictions to the chart viewed against basic principles of

> astrology.

>

> >Your thoughts are very nice, but I think that one of your statements

> >remained unprooved, i.e. that in all cases of Baalarishta, for

> >example, the early death will be definitely shown in the child's

> >chart also, and that there may be no cases when the early death is

> >shown onyl in the parents' chart.

>

> How can I prove unless you give me a chart that doesn't show

> indications of early death but the parents's charts show it? If you

> have even 3 such charts, please give the details. I am willing to

> show what I mean. As I already wrote in my earlier mail, longevity is

> the most toughest area of all. No two methods give the same. I do not

> profess to know all about death. Yet I am willing to show that in all

> cases of premature death, the charts do answer the simple criteria

> set by the sages and especially when used with KP.

>

> >It is also interesting to consider D-40 and D-45, which are directly

> >connected with the karma coming from paternal and maternal line.

>

> I study the higher vargas out of academic interest. But in all

> honesty I haven't found any clear guidelines in the existing

> literature on how to use them. The astrologers who have either taught

> or inspired me have also shown only till D30 (generally only till

> D16). Of course till D12 it is fine. But the higher vargas esp

> *beyond D30 continue to elude me. But I have been much more

> successful with KP subs. I will be more than happy if someone

> demonstrates clearly and consistently on the usage of such higher

> vargas such as D-40 and D-45. Could you please write more on the

> usage of D-40 AND D-45?

>

> One can achieve a very high level of accuracy using upto even D-12

> and KP. In fact one doesn't need divisional charts really if he uses

> the subs well. For muself I follow this currently. It gives me very

> good results. But I would be very happy to learn anything else that

> works. I have written exactly as I feel and know. If our opinions

> differ anywhere I hope it would remain limited to the discussion. As

> such I respect all methods and every astrologer. I will be happy to

> read about what worked for you.

>

> Regards,

> Satya

>

> ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

July 3, 2001

Dear Sarajit,

"Karmanye Adhikaraste Ma Phaleshu Kadachan" (Ch II, verse 47)

This is the most used and most misinterpreted verse of Geeta. Can any one

perform an work if he has no goal in front of him? No. Can anyone have a goal

unless he has some expected outcome? Definitely a BIG NO. Then what is the

meaning of nonattachment to result?

Each and every verse of Geeta has a very wide meaning and more you read the more

you understand or ascimilate. We should not look at only one verse. To

understand true meaning of one verse we must try to understand the chapter as a

whole.

So to understand the real meaning look at the verse 65 of the same chapter -

"Prasade sarvadukhanam Hanirsapojayote". By taking prasadam our all sorrows

come to an end. This was explained by Swami Dayananda Saraswati in one of his

lecture which goes as follows,

When we perform some action only four types of results may come,

1. Just success

2. Success more than expected

3. Just failure

4. Thorough failure and completely unfavourable result

We take action based on information available with us as perceived by our

limited ability of our indriyas (our tools to get information viz. eyes, ears

etc.). But many things are there beyond our perception which might affect the

result of our action. For example, a student writes excellently in a exam and

expects very good marks. But may be when the examiner sits for checking his

paper his wife starts nagging and he checks the paper reluctantly with a

irrtated mind. So what happens? marks given are not as good as expected. The

student has no fault but it is out of circumstances he does not perform well.

So, we must be ready to accept any type of above four result as a Prasadam. Once

we can do it failures will not affect us, we will not blame ourselves and become

miserable on failures, we shall not become nervous to think of the result.

This is the true meaning of action with nonattachment. How wonderfull and just

think how practical the teachings of Geeta are. This is truly a philosophy

beyond all so called religions.

Hope I have been able to make it clear.

With regards to all list members.

J.K. Dasgupta

-

Sarajit

vedic astrology

Tuesday, July 03, 2001 7:06 PM

[vedic astrology] Prarabdha and Purushardha

AUM SRI GURUVE NAMAHDear Satya!Thank you for the illustrative mail on Prarabdha

and Purushardha. The debatebetween the Destiny and free will is continuing from

time immemorial andwill continue forever as in the domain of maya or illusion,

things are notclear. Some times something which would seem like prarabdha will

look likepurusharsha on some other time.So many grear persons and maharishis

have said about this subject, that Ifeel negligible in front of their knowledge

and capability. My age is alsonot much in comparision to learned members like

you. Even then I would liketo share my understanding on this subject.My

thoughts are not much different from what Satyaji has shared. BhagavatGita says

that keep doing your karma and don't get attached to the fruits ofaction. This

is the essential principle of Karma yoga, one of the many pathsto god

realisation or self realisation. Hence we understand from Gita thatthe ultimate

aim of human life is self realisation. However there are manypaths to do that

and as mentioned in Gita, they are Bhakti Yoga, Gnana Yoga,Raja Yoga and Karma

Yoga.The essentials of all the yoga is the same which can be interpreted

asdissolution of the self or the limited ego and thereafter merge withinfinite

consciousness and be one with that. This is again same as gettingfree from the

bondage of life and death.Human beings take birth due to the accumulation of

results of the karma. Ifthere is no accumulation of the results of the karma,

there won't be rebirthto reap them. The results of karma is only accumulated if

one feels himselfas the doer of the action. This is only a mere illusion. The

doer is someoneelse, however, human beings under the veil of ignorance feels

that he isdoing the karma. As a result in the process, the person accumulates

theresults of the action (because he perceives that he is doing the

karma).However, if the person disassociates himself from the perception of

thedoership, the person gets free from the results of the action as he feels

hehas not performed the action. This is clearly indicated in the Gita that

oneshould keep on doing the karma, without attaching himself to the fruits

ofthose actions.As you clearly mentioned, the situations one is in cannot be

controlled byhim, but the action he does can be controlled by him. Thus

situation we arein are determined by the prarabdha. However, we must also

appreciate thefact that, the actions we take is based on the urges we have at

that momentand which is in turn guided by the tendencies we have. For

illustration, ifone is sattwik, he will not kill anybody, even if he is

provoked whereas atamasic person could do it. Again these tendencies are the

outcome ofrepeated actions of previous life and hence is in a way determined.

Thus thefreewill is only there to detach ourselves from the results of

action.(However, we may say that only an elevated soul can do it and a

tamasikperson cannot do it and hence he has to reap the results of the karma he

hasperformed).This would mean that any action per se is not good or bad, but the

way theaction is done and the mentality with which it is done could be good or

badaccording to the perception that the action is performed for a good cause.If

a souldier kills the enemy he doesn't accumulate bad karma as this is hisdharma

whereas if a dacoit kills a person, he will accumulate bad karma. Inany case

the person involved are accumulating the results of the karmabecause they are

perceiving themselves to be the doer of the action, be itgood or bad. A person

accumulating good karma will take birth in a goodsituation and vice-versa

however, he is not free from the cycle of birthand death.In order to be free

from the cycle of birth and death, one must perceivehimself to be only a

instrument in the hands of someone invisible, one whois supreme and not the

doer. He will get rid of the cycle when he iscompletely free from the crutches

of ego... the illusive self.The very idea that we can change our future mean

that we are attached to thefruit of action or the results. If we are not

attached then why we arewilling for a specific future, good or bad. The very

concept of free willwhen misimterpreted, mean that we have the power to change

our future. Thisin a way strenthen the perception of "I", the ego and one's

capability tochange the future. Thus in a way it attaches more to the results

(i.e.,better future)......The essence of Gita is that, one should not expect

anything from hissituations and actions but go on doing his own dharma

accepting whatevercomes in result. If one expects of a bright future and acts

accordingly,even if he is acting with accordanceof dharma, he will not be free

from the actions he performs.....Moreover, this is only a perception that we

can change our future. If thepresent karma is determined by the past actions,

then the future karma willbe determined by the present karma. This is a long

chain of actions, thepreceeding determining the succeeding one, where the

possibility of anyintervention comes to change it. Again, this can no way be

verified, whethera particular result we get out of some action is based on our

destiny orfree will. The only thing we can do is to surrender and keep

performing ourdharma.Some of these thoughts might not be clear as in many

places, I didn't haveproper words to put my thinking to words. I hope things

get clear, more andmore, with time.I remainWith regards to all respected

members.Sarajit Poddar-

<satyaketu ><vedic astrology>Tuesday, July

03, 2001 3:48 PM[vedic astrology] Re:Charts affecting

others(Gauranga)> Aum Namah Shivaya!>> Dear Gauranga,>> Namaste.> I will

address each of the points raised in your post separately.> First I will deal

with Prarabdha (destiny) Vs Purushardha (freewill)> since it is the

philosophical basis and also because I can then> address the technical points

without reference to the philosophy.>> >But if taken philosophically, the

question boils down to the> >interrelation of karma adn free will. If free will

exists, then how> >much are we able to exercise it? Are we abel to inlfuence

only our> >own lives or the lives of others as well?>> Prarabdha Vs

Purushardha>> To a devotee (bhakta) Prarabdha is the Will of God. The devotee>

(Bhakta) sees only Prarabdha. In contrast a Gnani who has realized> the truth

as "Aham Brahmasmi", sees only Purushartha. Both> are> correct for these are

two sides of the same coin. The Bhakta> (Devotee) feels it is all Prarabdha

only. Yet there is no fatalism in> this. Prarabdha is only Purusharta (efforts

born of free will) of> previous births. Purushartha combined with Prarabdha

brings effects.> A man who is sick has to take the medicine (Purushartha) and

leave> the results to Prarabdha. Yet all patients who take the medicine are>

not cured. Those who get cured have it in their Prarabdha to get> cured taking

a medicine. The same with remedial measures. If> Prarabdha is so strong, why

did the sages> speak of Purushardha? How are we to reconcile the references to>

Purushardha? Why does Vasishta advocate Purushartha to Sri Rama in> the Yoga

Vasishta. We are neither totally bound by destiny nor are we> totally free. We

have limited freedom like a cow that has been tied> to a post in a field with a

rope. It can move freely, but only within> the limits of the field. We have

limited freedom depending upon how> much we can stretch our Karma. Prarabdha is

strong because it is the> result of many lives. Hence Purushardha (free will)

also has its role> BUT only over MANY lives. Free will of one life is hardly

anything in> mundane matters. How much freedom (svatantrya) do we really have?

As> Swamy Sivananda said, "You have no Bhoga-svatantrya (freedom to> determine

the result of action) but you have Karma-Svatantrya> (freedom to determine the

course of action)". In other words, the> only area where we have a choice, is

the present. Irrespective of the> results, one should carry on with his duties,

surrendering to the> Lord. Most often we may not have freedom to determine the

results,> but we are totally free to determine the course of action. By moving>

in the right direction according to Dharma, one can alter the course> of the

future (future lives). The situations that we find ourselves> in, are due to

Prarabdha, over which we have no control. But we have> freedom as far as our

reaction to the situation is concerned. Can one> go beyond karma? One cannot go

beyond karma, but one can go beyond> the *results of karma. The freewill that

the scriptures refer to is> generally this kind of freewill, the will to be

happy or unhappy. The> external situations are a result of Prarabdha, indicated

by the> planets. But whether we choose to suffer or not, how we react to the>

sotuation, is our freewill. This is exactly the same difference> between pain

and suffering. Ramana Maharshi was operated for a> tumour, he was asked whether

he had no pain since he remained calm> even with no anesthetic. He replied that

the pain was there, but> there was no suffering. As astrologers we are studying

Prarabdha. The> chart gives us an access to one's Prarabdha. It is just a tool>

through which we try to understand the individual's Prarabdha.> After>

satisfying ourselves that we have tried all that we know, we have to> predict.

But what is the use of a correct but unhappy prediction if> it adds to the

suffering? It is here that Purushardha's role> comes. We> counsel the person

about how he could react. We inspire the person> with spiritual truths, truths

that can help the person to be> detached, to see life as a benediction, that it

is still possible to> be happy.> Once it happened with a client. I had nothing

positive to offer her> about the immediate future, after studying the chart

closely. Very> pitiable state indeed. It was one of those times when an

astrologer> feels like giving up astrology because of the unhappy things that

he> has to convey. I did some predictions for just 10 minutes, saw that> she

was going to breakdown, she had been through a terrible period. I> then talked

to her for one hour. During this time I talked nothing> about her chart. I

chose to share with her some ideas from the> scriptures in a non-religious

language. Vedanta can be a source of> great strength if presented properly. She

was beaming at the end,> very joyful. After that I met her in some meetings at a

local> organization. She told me that the reading helped her to become>

stronger, to be happy internally no matter what. Some sentences went> straight

to her heart. Last time I met the tropical astrologer who> referred her to me,

she told me that the lady was so inspired that> she was planning to print some

T-shirts with the sentences that> inspired her and made it possible to be happy

inspite of the> circumstances. I think that this is the role of an astrologer.

To> study the Prarabdha through the chart and help the client to realize> the

role of freewill, the will to go beyond the results of karma.> Other than this

there is no such thing as freewill to divert karmas> or even have 5 options for

any particular combination. I have seen> some Western astrologers who were

learning vedic, saying that a> particular combination in the> 5th house had to

affect any area of the 5th house. That it was within> the freewill of the

person to choose whether it would affect the> children or education or

something else! There is no such thing. If> the astrologer knows how to read it

will be reasonably clear which> area it actually manifests.>> >All of us

experience that any reading in a chart may indicate> >different options. For

example Mars in the 8th could give cuts,> >burns and accidents or operations as

well. So how do we decide which> >one will transpire?>> Does a reading in a

chart indicate many options? Or is it possible to> zoom in?>> As you had

written Mars in the eighth in a chart could indicate cuts,> burns, accidents,

surgeries, or even loss by theft. Why is it said> so? The 8th house signifies

accidents, death, major fights, danger> from enemies or even robbers and any

other disturbance, difficulty,> defeat, insult, calamity or shock, that is

stressful enough to have a> bearing on the longevity (and thereby even

suicide). Mars being a> dry, fiery, masculine and malefic graha, he can

indicate any of the> above if placed in the eighth. But that is not everything.

Isn't> it> possible to eliminate some of the above with a little work? Again

for> instance Mars is said to indicate a barber, butcher or a surgeon. No>

doubt all of them use a sharp instrument and also share an unpleasant> job. But

other planets help to pick the right one. A barber removes> hair(Saturn) and

brings beauty (venus). A butcher kills (stronger> Saturn than venus) an animal

(venus) of course using a sharp> instrument (Mars). On the other hand a surgeon

uses the sharp> instrument to end the trouble (tumour, cyst etc) and thereby

give> life (sun). His action being more of a life-giving (sun) nature, one>

would expect Sun also to play a key role here. Coming back to Mars in> the 8th,

isn't it possible similiarly, to refine it further by> using> nakshatras,

aspects (and subs if one is open to this wonderful> concept) etc? Generally,

surgery is done for preventive or corrective> purposes. Almost always it is

preceded by some actual sickness or> health problem. If not atleast it is

related to one. So often it is> not that difficult to distinguish between a

surgery and any other> signification. A major accident or surgery involves

hospitalization.> So wouldn't the 12th house have a role in this case? It is>

possible> to refine the prediction with the help of the other planets>

influencing by nakshatras, aspects (the degree aspects popular in> Western

astrology find place in some form even in Tajika;they> actually work well),

signs etc. A rough guide based on other> influences on Mars, would be as

following.>> Sun's malefic influence -- Inflammations, fire> Moon - Rashness

leading to accidents, quarrels, bleeding> Mercury - Loss by theft, being a

victim of swindling, deceit (at> its> worst even Murder is indicated; a strong

mars under an influence of> his Mercury, worst enemy is like a warrior provoked

in the battle> field)> Venus - Venereal diseases> Saturn - theft, murder, some

inflammations which leave signs on> the> skin, more cruel cuts etc>> Of course

we could err in our judgement when it comes to a cut, burn> or accident since

all of them involve personal injury (actually a> cut, burn, or a vehicular

accident are all accidental and hence are> accidents in that sense, unless

suicidal). But differentiating> between an injury, surgery, inflammation and

robbery is not> impossible. Such refinement IS possible by the use of

nakshatras as> Satyacharya or any modern author like Meena or Krishnamurthi

suggest.> But in KP the use of subs refines it further. Those who don't use>

the> subs can still get a lot of refinement by using the nakshatras alone.>

Don't the nakshatras distinguish Vedic astrology from Western?> Isn't> the

lunar zodiac as ancient as most other vedic teachings? So why> don't we use it

more than we do generally? A simple instance of> how> nakshatras add

refinement. The 6th house indicates many things like> sickness, employees,

debts, subordinates, pets and maternal uncle.> How do we know when exactly to

use the 6th to mean the maternal> uncle? A planet in the 6th in the nakshatra

of a planet in the 1st> house brings danger (sometimes even death) to maternal

uncle. Why? In> general planets in the lagna can bring danger to maternal

uncle> (Maternal uncle is seen in the 6th and lagna is 8th to 6th.) So any>

planet in the lagna can be bad for the maternal uncle. But the> planets in the

nakshatra of such a planet are more stronger to give> the results. And if such

a planet is in the 6th, it confirms the> reference to the maternal uncle. Such

is the simplicity and beauty of> using the nakshatras. The rashi is only the

sthoola level. The> nakshatra is the sukshma level, the jeeva or life. Using

both with a> consistent methodology makes matters simpler and more accurate.>>

>It is also well known that analysing a chart in retrospective, i.e.> >after

the event has actually occurred, is much easier than to> >identify the event

exactly before its occurence.>> Analysing a chart retrospectively is said to be

easier not because it> is easier, but because it gives the scope to justify our

point by> picking any suitable explanation from the ocean of vedic techniques>

with its rules and counter rules. But if one follows a consistent> methodology

for both predicting as well as retrospective analysis, it> should be equally

difficult or easy. It is for the astrologer to be> intellectually honest and

evolve his own methodology choosing> techniques that have worked for him.>>

>This needs a good deal of intuition or Divya Drishti besides> >technincal

knowledge of chart reading, which, as I have pointed> >before, reveal many

different options for anu time fragment in the> >native's life.>> The role of

intuition is undeniable. It plays a role even in the> diagnosis of an illness

in a clinic. Even in science great> discoveries had that brilliant "flash" of

intuition. But it> is> possible to still practice and teach astrology with an

*emphasis on> technique. Intuition comes with sadhana which is a personal

choice.> We should inspire the student to do his own sadhana. It ends there.>

Too much emphasis on intuition while teaching astrology, can> discourage many

brilliant potential students. My emphasis is on> Techniques and

Methodologies.>> > All of us experience that any reading in a chart may

indicate> >different options. So how do we decide which >one will transpire?>

>It might well be that all the opportunities are there, but the final>

>manifestation depends on the individual's karmic state at the> >moment, which

could be pinpointed from a Prashna chart.>> It IS true that Prashna indicates

the current karmic account. But> that is not the primary reason for using

Prashna. Prashna is the> ORACLE OF THE MOMENT. Prashna clearly refers to the

question at hand,> the burning problem. Hence it is easier to zoom in onto the

point> that we are searching for. There is no need to worry about the> multiple

significations. Except for the ease, convenience and> definite reference to the

query, all else is same. The process and> principles are the same as those used

in natal astrology. As far as> the point about Prashna indicating *current karma

and *hence being> the choice is concerned, it is not really so. Most of the time

the> efforts of an individual in one lifetime are almost insignificant as>

compared to Prarabdha (indicated by the natal chart) which is the> result of

many lives. Freewill is significant *only over many lives.> The differences if

any between the indications of the natal and> horary charts regarding a

particular matter are very minimal. For a> competent astrologer the natal chart

is sufficient to confidently> predict the same. It is a different matter that we

prefer the Prashna> method for reasons already cited. Another reason for

preferring> Prashna is that most natal charts need rectification for the use

of> subs or divisional charts and hence it is time consuming and also>

unreliable if the rectification is not correct. In contrast the> Prashna method

is fast, easy and simple. The oracle of the moment can> be read by Prashna,

ruling planets, omens, or even simpler methods> like I Ching, tarot etc. The

method may vary. But in all these, it is> the oracle of the moment that works.

I don't agree with the> section> of astrologers who feel that methods like

tarot, nimitta etc are> inferior and that since it is easy it is meant for

lesser brains. It> depends on the interpreter, how well tuned he is to the

particular> method. I am myself used to the hard work involved in Vedic>

astrology. Even in my late teens I was made to calculate the> divisional charts

upto D-16 manually, for every chart that I did. Yet> I have used tools like I

Ching and Nimitta with success. But the best> of all is the Ruling planets

technique.>> Now the main point where we started->> >Parasara says that upto

the age of 24 the longevity of the native> >cannot be fixed, as it may be

influenced by the karmic reactions of> >the parents.> >So my idea would be that

the amount of influence flowing from one> >person to the other would be

indicated by the strength of the> >significations for a particular event in a

chart. For example, if a> >mother's chart strongly shows the loss of a child,

while the child's> >chart would reveal Baalarishta only after prolonged

scrutiny, we can> >be lead to a conclusion that the death happened under a

strong> >influence of the mother's karma. Therefore we should alos take into>

>attention the strength of a certain indication in a chart.>> Arishta does not

indicate death. Death is one of the extreme evils> which come under arishta. As

I already quoted,the actual verse is--> BPHS 9.2. "Evils causing premature end

(Janmaarishta is the actual> word)) exist up to the 24th year of one's age.

Hence, no definite> calculation of life span should be made till such year of

age.">> My understanding is that arishtas or evils that *could* be a threat> to

the child's life exist till a particular age. So we are advised to> refrain from

making any definete calculations till some point.> Parashara doesn't say that it

is due to the parents karmas. Authors> like Vaidyanatha (he makes the reference

to parents sins) however> scholarly or great cannot be taken as an authority

definetely as much> as we would respect a sage's word. There is nothing in the

available> literature that suggests that indications of death of a child in a>

parents chart cannot be read from the child's chart. As I said at> best it

proves only interrelated destinies and not overriding> destinies.> Moreover

arishtas dont necessarily mean death. They are evils or> threats. Infact what

is popularly known as medical astrology is> nothing but a collection of all

about various arisshtas and> afflictions to the chart viewed against basic

principles of> astrology.>> >Your thoughts are very nice, but I think that one

of your statements> >remained unprooved, i.e. that in all cases of Baalarishta,

for> >example, the early death will be definitely shown in the child's> >chart

also, and that there may be no cases when the early death is> >shown onyl in

the parents' chart.>> How can I prove unless you give me a chart that doesn't

show> indications of early death but the parents's charts show it? If you> have

even 3 such charts, please give the details. I am willing to> show what I mean.

As I already wrote in my earlier mail, longevity is> the most toughest area of

all. No two methods give the same. I do not> profess to know all about death.

Yet I am willing to show that in all> cases of premature death, the charts do

answer the simple criteria> set by the sages and especially when used with

KP.>> >It is also interesting to consider D-40 and D-45, which are directly>

>connected with the karma coming from paternal and maternal line.>> I study

the higher vargas out of academic interest. But in all> honesty I haven't found

any clear guidelines in the existing> literature on how to use them. The

astrologers who have either taught> or inspired me have also shown only till

D30 (generally only till> D16). Of course till D12 it is fine. But the higher

vargas esp> *beyond D30 continue to elude me. But I have been much more>

successful with KP subs. I will be more than happy if someone> demonstrates

clearly and consistently on the usage of such higher> vargas such as D-40 and

D-45. Could you please write more on the> usage of D-40 AND D-45?>> One can

achieve a very high level of accuracy using upto even D-12> and KP. In fact one

doesn't need divisional charts really if he uses> the subs well. For muself I

follow this currently. It gives me very> good results. But I would be very

happy to learn anything else that> works. I have written exactly as I feel and

know. If our opinions> differ anywhere I hope it would remain limited to the

discussion. As> such I respect all methods and every astrologer. I will be

happy to> read about what worked for you.>> Regards,> Satya>>> Archives:

vedic astrology>> Group info:

vedic astrology/info.html>> To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology->> ....... May Jupiter's light

shine on us .......>> || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu

||>> Your use of is subject to

>>Archives:

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shine on us .......

July 3, 2001

Beautiful posts and ideas. Excellent dialogue indeed.

Everything boils down to "Mind over Matter" whether it is Prarabadh or

Purshartha. Bhakta accepts everything and has postioned his mind at the

feet of almighty; Gyani recognizes "Aham Brahmasmi."

Both Karma and Dharma are applicable but both can be further sub-divided.

There are many forms e.g dharma towards self, dharma towards the family,

dharma towards the society, dharma towards the state. The trick is to

chose one and stay course on that path. This sustenance would require

"Mind over Matter" i.e Tapasya or control over distractions...

Best Regards,

SA

"Sarajit" <sarajitp on 07/03/2001 06:36:41 AM

Please respond to vedic astrology

cc:

[vedic astrology] Prarabdha and Purushardha

AUM SRI GURUVE NAMAH

Dear Satya!

Thank you for the illustrative mail on Prarabdha and Purushardha. The

debate

between the Destiny and free will is continuing from time immemorial and

will continue forever as in the domain of maya or illusion, things are not

clear. Some times something which would seem like prarabdha will look like

purusharsha on some other time.

So many grear persons and maharishis have said about this subject, that I

feel negligible in front of their knowledge and capability. My age is also

not much in comparision to learned members like you. Even then I would like

to share my understanding on this subject.

My thoughts are not much different from what Satyaji has shared. Bhagavat

Gita says that keep doing your karma and don't get attached to the fruits

of

action. This is the essential principle of Karma yoga, one of the many

paths

to god realisation or self realisation. Hence we understand from Gita that

the ultimate aim of human life is self realisation. However there are many

paths to do that and as mentioned in Gita, they are Bhakti Yoga, Gnana

Yoga,

Raja Yoga and Karma Yoga.

The essentials of all the yoga is the same which can be interpreted as

dissolution of the self or the limited ego and thereafter merge with

infinite consciousness and be one with that. This is again same as getting

free from the bondage of life and death.

Human beings take birth due to the accumulation of results of the karma. If

there is no accumulation of the results of the karma, there won't be

rebirth

to reap them. The results of karma is only accumulated if one feels himself

as the doer of the action. This is only a mere illusion. The doer is

someone

else, however, human beings under the veil of ignorance feels that he is

doing the karma. As a result in the process, the person accumulates the

results of the action (because he perceives that he is doing the karma).

However, if the person disassociates himself from the perception of the

doership, the person gets free from the results of the action as he feels

he

has not performed the action. This is clearly indicated in the Gita that

one

should keep on doing the karma, without attaching himself to the fruits of

those actions.

As you clearly mentioned, the situations one is in cannot be controlled by

him, but the action he does can be controlled by him. Thus situation we are

in are determined by the prarabdha. However, we must also appreciate the

fact that, the actions we take is based on the urges we have at that moment

and which is in turn guided by the tendencies we have. For illustration, if

one is sattwik, he will not kill anybody, even if he is provoked whereas a

tamasic person could do it. Again these tendencies are the outcome of

repeated actions of previous life and hence is in a way determined. Thus

the

freewill is only there to detach ourselves from the results of action.

(However, we may say that only an elevated soul can do it and a tamasik

person cannot do it and hence he has to reap the results of the karma he

has

performed).

This would mean that any action per se is not good or bad, but the way the

action is done and the mentality with which it is done could be good or bad

according to the perception that the action is performed for a good cause.

If a souldier kills the enemy he doesn't accumulate bad karma as this is

his

dharma whereas if a dacoit kills a person, he will accumulate bad karma.

In

any case the person involved are accumulating the results of the karma

because they are perceiving themselves to be the doer of the action, be it

good or bad. A person accumulating good karma will take birth in a good

situation and vice-versa however, he is not free from the cycle of birth

and death.

In order to be free from the cycle of birth and death, one must perceive

himself to be only a instrument in the hands of someone invisible, one who

is supreme and not the doer. He will get rid of the cycle when he is

completely free from the crutches of ego... the illusive self.

The very idea that we can change our future mean that we are attached to

the

fruit of action or the results. If we are not attached then why we are

willing for a specific future, good or bad. The very concept of free will

when misimterpreted, mean that we have the power to change our future. This

in a way strenthen the perception of "I", the ego and one's capability to

change the future. Thus in a way it attaches more to the results (i.e.,

better future)......

The essence of Gita is that, one should not expect anything from his

situations and actions but go on doing his own dharma accepting whatever

comes in result. If one expects of a bright future and acts accordingly,

even if he is acting with accordance

of dharma, he will not be free from the actions he performs.....

Moreover, this is only a perception that we can change our future. If the

present karma is determined by the past actions, then the future karma will

be determined by the present karma. This is a long chain of actions, the

preceeding determining the succeeding one, where the possibility of any

intervention comes to change it. Again, this can no way be verified,

whether