Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 Dear Karu, Suicide is actually the result of the soul not accepting its current incarnation at that particular time and state. So it can be (and is in my opinion) a soul desire, going against the natural process of "departing at the right time". Murder is "playing God" by taking another humans life (regardless of the motivation). Is it than a "desire" or a "regret" ? Still the topic that I raised was a human (soul) committing both suicide AND mass murder, not a single act. However, behind the scene lurks the issue of "predefined destiny" versus "free will" (se Visti's text and my comment to it) .... Kind regards Jay - heen (AT) netspace (DOT) net.au vedic astrology Friday, May 31, 2002 3:26 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Suicide and mass-murder OM NAMO NARAYANAYA Dear Visti, I do not think Atma can be blind at any time. The one and single goal of the Atma is ultimate liberation from the cycle of rebirth. Suicide can come from lot of mental tension or wrong guidance for some thing limited to this short period of life (Religion,Language, Nationality etc.). This is against the true goal or meaning of human life as he committed a sin against the desire of the soul. This sort of feelings comes from Mana which is great enemy of Moksha, as desires are the biggest barrier to liberation. Feeling of separation from physical body cannot be a desire of the soul but one has to use this body for complete the journey. Afflicted AK punish harshly. But AK doesn't wanted kill, instead suffer and rectify self. Jaimini given lot of weight to AK for Ayush matter. Let's see what Gurudeva going to say... Hare Krshna Karu - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Friday, May 31, 2002 6:23 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Suicide and mass-murder Vyam Vysadevaya Namah -------------------- Dear Jay, The motivation to commit such fanatic deeds is usually deeply ingrain in the person, and can be due to the souls desire to do justice! However this sense of justification can be blinded, and this is whats happening. The AK shows the souls desires, and if this AK is blinded (say by Rahu.. Aditya-Chandala Yoga is very likely), then it may do ill. How this AK wishes to die, may be seen from the 3rd from AK. Some people obey this desire, some don't.. So some fanatics maybe doing exactly the opposite of what the soul desires.. so check Lagna(Lord of Paka Lagna to be precise) and see what they do. Again checking both AK and Lagna in Navamsa is very important. Best wishes, Visti. - Jay Weiss vedic astrology Thursday, May 30, 2002 8:49 AM [vedic astrology] Suicide and mass-murder Dear Friends, Namaste. The last new "trend" of using suicide bombers for political or terror reasons adds a new dimension to a very strange category in chart interpretation. In this category we may find a individuals who's destiny takes them to commit BOTH suicide and murder. Astrologically, Suicide is a clear act of the person (soul) undoing itself. Commiting murder in the process can be often explained. However, becoming a mass-murderer in the process of suicide is another story, in my opinion. Examples: the September 11th acts in the US, the ongoing acts of suicide bombers in Israel or the German teenager who recently shot 17 people before killing himself. There is probably a karmic connection/background where the lagna lord, Rahu/ketu and their rulers, the 8th and 12th houses etc. are all involved and afflicted in one way or another. Without touching the issue of motivation (no politics please ...), i.e in pure vedic astrological terms, I would like to ask the learned members for some qualified opinions as to what possible combinations may be found in a chart (and relevant divisions) of such a person. Kind regards Jay WeissArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 OM NAMO NARAYANAYA Dear Jay -- Dear Karu, >Suicide is actually the result of the soul not accepting its current incarnation at that particular time and state. So it can be (and is in my opinion) a soul desire, going against the natural process of "departing at the right time". With respect, please forgive me if you think I am wrong. Accepting or not current incarnation or Karma, is more related to Mana. It is Mana, which is not surrendered to the God, cause this type of trouble. Suicide or any other sins initiate in Mana. If any one surrender to the nature and accept inherited Karma, does not need to left his body. Also (my understanding) Soul does not need to understand any thing, but simply witnessing. No pain no sorrow. Visti said "some people obey this desire.." Atma cannot obey. This is only my opinion. >Murder is "playing God" by taking another humans life (regardless of the motivation). Is it than a "desire" or a "regret" ? Of course ! Again Mana, what ever it is. >Still the topic that I raised was a human (soul) committing both suicide AND mass murder, not a single act. However, behind the scene lurks the issue of "predefined destiny" versus "free will" (se Visti's text and my comment to it) .... Yes, as I cannot give any specific combination. How ever, for death 3rd and 8th from Aruda lagna and Atmakaraka must be examined. Malefic signs, Malefic planets and specially Gulika give bad death. Further, Jaimini classifies the way how planets affect. In Hitler's case, 3rd from AL and AK is aspected by 3 first rate benefics, still he had bad death due to aspect of Saturn (tension/poison/suicide) and Mars ( Anger) on 8th from AK and AK it self. How ever I cannot say any clear/specific combination for committing suicide. Jaimini says more tamasic influences to the 12th from AK, direct the native towards tamasic spirits. (or against Dharma-my understanding). This can be conformed with the chart of Hitler again. This is for suicide. Same chart qualifying for second category too. He had 3 benefics in 6th from AL and Jupiter conjoined Moon in Navamsa. Rahu is in 12th from AL. How ever Saturn, Guruchandala yoga and shakti yoga canceled this spirituality and given opposite. Saturn made him mad about power, and Rahu destroyed other factors. So, my little understanding is, many factors must be fulfilled to be a mass murder. Moreover, Sanjay had given more weight to D-6 Shastamsa as these cases are more related to Yudda. If you kindly check and compare D-6 of Srila Prabupada and Hitler, you may understand the difference. How ever Jay, these are not final says as me too learning. If you find any thing please do share with us too. Thanks a lot. Karu - heen (AT) netspace (DOT) net.au vedic astrology Friday, May 31, 2002 3:26 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Suicide and mass-murder OM NAMO NARAYANAYA Dear Visti, I do not think Atma can be blind at any time. The one and single goal of the Atma is ultimate liberation from the cycle of rebirth. Suicide can come from lot of mental tension or wrong guidance for some thing limited to this short period of life (Religion,Language, Nationality etc.). This is against the true goal or meaning of human life as he committed a sin against the desire of the soul. This sort of feelings comes from Mana which is great enemy of Moksha, as desires are the biggest barrier to liberation. Feeling of separation from physical body cannot be a desire of the soul but one has to use this body for complete the journey. Afflicted AK punish harshly. But AK doesn't wanted kill, instead suffer and rectify self. Jaimini given lot of weight to AK for Ayush matter. Let's see what Gurudeva going to say... Hare Krshna Karu - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Friday, May 31, 2002 6:23 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Suicide and mass-murder Vyam Vysadevaya Namah -------------------- Dear Jay, The motivation to commit such fanatic deeds is usually deeply ingrain in the person, and can be due to the souls desire to do justice! However this sense of justification can be blinded, and this is whats happening. The AK shows the souls desires, and if this AK is blinded (say by Rahu.. Aditya-Chandala Yoga is very likely), then it may do ill. How this AK wishes to die, may be seen from the 3rd from AK. Some people obey this desire, some don't.. So some fanatics maybe doing exactly the opposite of what the soul desires.. so check Lagna(Lord of Paka Lagna to be precise) and see what they do. Again checking both AK and Lagna in Navamsa is very important. Best wishes, Visti. - Jay Weiss vedic astrology Thursday, May 30, 2002 8:49 AM [vedic astrology] Suicide and mass-murder Dear Friends, Namaste. The last new "trend" of using suicide bombers for political or terror reasons adds a new dimension to a very strange category in chart interpretation. In this category we may find a individuals who's destiny takes them to commit BOTH suicide and murder. Astrologically, Suicide is a clear act of the person (soul) undoing itself. Commiting murder in the process can be often explained. However, becoming a mass-murderer in the process of suicide is another story, in my opinion. Examples: the September 11th acts in the US, the ongoing acts of suicide bombers in Israel or the German teenager who recently shot 17 people before killing himself. There is probably a karmic connection/background where the lagna lord, Rahu/ketu and their rulers, the 8th and 12th houses etc. are all involved and afflicted in one way or another. Without touching the issue of motivation (no politics please ...), i.e in pure vedic astrological terms, I would like to ask the learned members for some qualified opinions as to what possible combinations may be found in a chart (and relevant divisions) of such a person. Kind regards Jay WeissArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 Dear Karu, Why do you need 'forgiveness' ? regardless of what I may think ? I highly respect your mail and your PERCEPTION of the issues in question. You touched one of the major spots which try to avoid here: Mana/Mind seen from the psychological angle. PERCEPTION IS A PART OF MIND - the part that is used as a reference for judging if and how to act/react. Many factors contribute to how we perceive, interpret and understand different things (like Moon (Mind) and Mercury (learning and the nerve system), 4th, 5th and 9th houses (learning and intelligence)), the div. charts etc. . Hitler was not the type I referred to as he committed suicide long AFTER he committed murders. I am looking for the combination as reflected in a simultaneous action - at the same time frame, like the Sep. 11th. The late Manik Chand Jain took up both suicide and murder case analysis in his book "Karmic Control Planets" with a direct connection to Rahu/Ketu and their rulers who come the controlling planets. The 12th is the house of loose and undoing for the self - so yes, I agree that it has to do with suicide. Thanks again for your mail Jay - heen (AT) netspace (DOT) net.au vedic astrology Friday, May 31, 2002 3:11 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Suicide and mass-murder - Karu OM NAMO NARAYANAYA Dear Jay -- Dear Karu, >Suicide is actually the result of the soul not accepting its current incarnation at that particular time and state. So it can be (and is in my opinion) a soul desire, going against the natural process of "departing at the right time". With respect, please forgive me if you think I am wrong. Accepting or not current incarnation or Karma, is more related to Mana. It is Mana, which is not surrendered to the God, cause this type of trouble. Suicide or any other sins initiate in Mana. If any one surrender to the nature and accept inherited Karma, does not need to left his body. Also (my understanding) Soul does not need to understand any thing, but simply witnessing. No pain no sorrow. Visti said "some people obey this desire.." Atma cannot obey. This is only my opinion. >Murder is "playing God" by taking another humans life (regardless of the motivation). Is it than a "desire" or a "regret" ? Of course ! Again Mana, what ever it is. >Still the topic that I raised was a human (soul) committing both suicide AND mass murder, not a single act. However, behind the scene lurks the issue of "predefined destiny" versus "free will" (se Visti's text and my comment to it) .... Yes, as I cannot give any specific combination. How ever, for death 3rd and 8th from Aruda lagna and Atmakaraka must be examined. Malefic signs, Malefic planets and specially Gulika give bad death. Further, Jaimini classifies the way how planets affect. In Hitler's case, 3rd from AL and AK is aspected by 3 first rate benefics, still he had bad death due to aspect of Saturn (tension/poison/suicide) and Mars ( Anger) on 8th from AK and AK it self. How ever I cannot say any clear/specific combination for committing suicide. Jaimini says more tamasic influences to the 12th from AK, direct the native towards tamasic spirits. (or against Dharma-my understanding). This can be conformed with the chart of Hitler again. This is for suicide. Same chart qualifying for second category too. He had 3 benefics in 6th from AL and Jupiter conjoined Moon in Navamsa. Rahu is in 12th from AL. How ever Saturn, Guruchandala yoga and shakti yoga canceled this spirituality and given opposite. Saturn made him mad about power, and Rahu destroyed other factors. So, my little understanding is, many factors must be fulfilled to be a mass murder. Moreover, Sanjay had given more weight to D-6 Shastamsa as these cases are more related to Yudda. If you kindly check and compare D-6 of Srila Prabupada and Hitler, you may understand the difference. How ever Jay, these are not final says as me too learning. If you find any thing please do share with us too. Thanks a lot. Karu - heen (AT) netspace (DOT) net.au vedic astrology Friday, May 31, 2002 3:26 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Suicide and mass-murder OM NAMO NARAYANAYA Dear Visti, I do not think Atma can be blind at any time. The one and single goal of the Atma is ultimate liberation from the cycle of rebirth. Suicide can come from lot of mental tension or wrong guidance for some thing limited to this short period of life (Religion,Language, Nationality etc.). This is against the true goal or meaning of human life as he committed a sin against the desire of the soul. This sort of feelings comes from Mana which is great enemy of Moksha, as desires are the biggest barrier to liberation. Feeling of separation from physical body cannot be a desire of the soul but one has to use this body for complete the journey. Afflicted AK punish harshly. But AK doesn't wanted kill, instead suffer and rectify self. Jaimini given lot of weight to AK for Ayush matter. Let's see what Gurudeva going to say... Hare Krshna Karu - Visti Larsen vedic astrology Friday, May 31, 2002 6:23 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Suicide and mass-murder Vyam Vysadevaya Namah -------------------- Dear Jay, The motivation to commit such fanatic deeds is usually deeply ingrain in the person, and can be due to the souls desire to do justice! However this sense of justification can be blinded, and this is whats happening. The AK shows the souls desires, and if this AK is blinded (say by Rahu.. Aditya-Chandala Yoga is very likely), then it may do ill. How this AK wishes to die, may be seen from the 3rd from AK. Some people obey this desire, some don't.. So some fanatics maybe doing exactly the opposite of what the soul desires.. so check Lagna(Lord of Paka Lagna to be precise) and see what they do. Again checking both AK and Lagna in Navamsa is very important. Best wishes, Visti. - Jay Weiss vedic astrology Thursday, May 30, 2002 8:49 AM [vedic astrology] Suicide and mass-murder Dear Friends, Namaste. The last new "trend" of using suicide bombers for political or terror reasons adds a new dimension to a very strange category in chart interpretation. In this category we may find a individuals who's destiny takes them to commit BOTH suicide and murder. Astrologically, Suicide is a clear act of the person (soul) undoing itself. Commiting murder in the process can be often explained. However, becoming a mass-murderer in the process of suicide is another story, in my opinion. Examples: the September 11th acts in the US, the ongoing acts of suicide bombers in Israel or the German teenager who recently shot 17 people before killing himself. There is probably a karmic connection/background where the lagna lord, Rahu/ketu and their rulers, the 8th and 12th houses etc. are all involved and afflicted in one way or another. Without touching the issue of motivation (no politics please ...), i.e in pure vedic astrological terms, I would like to ask the learned members for some qualified opinions as to what possible combinations may be found in a chart (and relevant divisions) of such a person. Kind regards Jay WeissArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.