Varsha vs. daiva varsha ( was Yugas - Comment Please!)

[Guest guest]

Dear Gauranga prabhu, Namasthe.

 

Appended are the comments:

 

Here is the problem: if the 360 factor exists in the

chaturyuga cycle calculation (the verses quoted by

Gaurangji don't say this, only their translations

claim so), and if we accept traditional view that now

we are in year 5103 of kaliyuga, roughly when was

Shree KrishNa's time? When was Shree Raama's time,

supposedly, in the last tretaayuga? How does this

tally with the vamshaavali part of the same puraaNa-s

where about 2-3,000 years difference is given

between Shree Raama and Brihadvala, who fought in the

Bhaarata war? PuraaNa-s also go back in vamshaavali

all the way to Ikshvaaku, son of Manu of

satyayugaanta. Ikshvaaku to Raama thus works out to be

about 2,000 years. Even if we assign 400 years to each

generation, it is no more than 20,000 years. Is this

the difference between last satya yuga and last tretaa

yuga? Don't the puraaNa-s make clear that

the chaturyuga-s are referred herein, not some

subcycle whose very concept is not present in the

puraaNa-s or any shaastra text? Any new idea must fit

in the framework of logic: pratyakSa, anumAna, aitihya

(upama), and Shruti. Where does the subcycle fit in

this basis of logic? pratyakSa - is there such a

natural (not man-made) cycle? anumAna - can it be

deduced from some other natural event? aitihya (upama)

- did it happen many times before?

Shruti - is there a revealed samhita mantra to back it

up?

 

This also raises another problem: in Manusmr`ti and in

 

puraaNa-s it is said that human age in satyayuga is

400 years, in tretaa 300 years, in dvaapara 200 years,

in kali 100 years (which goes against Shruti of 100

year human lifespan at any time, hence shastra/puraaNa

on this issue is really false I feel). Now, using this

very thinking and translations like the ones Gauragji

posted or kallUka Bhatta/meDhAtiThi, how shall we

figure out the chaturyuga cycles?

 

Connecting human lifespan to daiva varsha - we need

shaastric (i.e. scientific in ancient India) basis,

and I can't find any. It has no astronomical nor

logical basis either. When we discard the 360x in

yugacycle arithmetic, all vamshaavali-s, traditional

views about Iskvaaku's, Rama's and KrishNa's times,

times of the many shaastra texts, and all the

astronomical references of scriptures fit

in. Thus, the very chaturyuga cycle gets tied to

seasonal precession - for example, in 12,000 years,

spring solstice moves from Ashvini to chitraa, in the

next it moves back to Ashvini. In 30.5 such 24,000

year cycles (or 71 of 12,000 year chaturyuga-s as

Manusmr`ti clearly defines 'manvantara') the solstice

point of earth orbit itself shifts by one nakshatra

division in a 28 nakshatra system - this is one

manvantara duration (this is the only place

ancient sages used the 28 nakshatra division), and

this is so because the earth orbit itself moves around

Sun (really, the entire solar disc spins just as earth

does, hence this), a fact in modern astronomy too. In

500 of 24,000 year cycles, this solstice point of

earth orbit shifts by 180 degrees - the duration of 14

manvantara-s. Another 14 manvantara-s in reverse order

complete one full spin of earth orbit wrt nakshatra-s

(total of 24 million years).This is defined in the

shaastra as brahma ahOrAtri. Again, this pertains to

our solar system only, not to Adi Brahma, the Creator

Brahma or nArAyaNa. Even in nityapUjA, this fact

is evident:

 

aum AdityamandalAya namaH |

AdityamandalADhipatayE brahmaNE namaH |

 

 

aum sOma mandalAya namaH |

sOma mandalADhipatayE viSNavE namaH |

 

aum vahni mandalAya namaH |

vahnimandalADhipatayE shivAya namaH |

 

etc.

 

The higher mandala-s above our solar system are: sOma

(galaxy), vahni (galaxy cluster), parmESTi, prajApati

(shaastra-s say there are 10 of these), Adi brahmA or

nArAyaNa or hiraNyagarBha (in the full universe or

Brahmaanda). In total, there are seven such mandala-s

or pariDhi-s: saptAsyAsan pariDhayaH (puruSasUktam).

Also, beyond our aaditymandala, the nakSatra

system of 'fixed' reference fails, since they in the

higher mandala-s move too, albeit extremely slowly

compared to our Sun's movement around our galactic

center. But every satyayuga (when jnaana is fully

awake), our sages add correction factor, and reset

kaalagaNanaa. This is my little understanding of our

shaastra-s, padDhati-s, and rituals. May be right, may

be wrong, I leave it to keen minds to

pursue sincerely.....

 

 

 

 

> JAYA JAGANNATHA!

>

> Dear Venkatesvara,

>

> Namaste.

>

> >

> > PuraaNa-s and Arya Bhatta give that factor of 360(

> 1

> > deva varsha = 360 human varsha-s) but it is absent

> in

> > the older shastra "Manusmr`ti" (MS 1-69,70).

> Kallooka

> > Bhatta's bhaashya (we believe it is later to Arya

> > Bhatta) on this text gives the interpretation for

> > "varsha" as "deva varsha" = 360 times a human

> year,

> > but the actual verse merely says "varsha", meaning

> our

> > plain human seasonal year on earth. Being the most

> > authoritative of the ancient shaastra-s when Vedic

> > words were taken seriously, I feel "Manusmr`ti"

> does

> > not use the word 'varsha', or any other

> > word, loosely.

> >

> > Wherever there is "varsha" in connection to the

> > calculation of yuga cycles in Manusmr`ti, you

> > interpret it as "daiva varsha", and rest follow.

> Just

> > because we have 360 or so days in a our year, why

> > should deva-s have similar of *their* days in

> *their*

> > year? Such genuine question of students was simply

> > brushed aside, as it happens even now!

> >

> > Guru YuktEshwar ji is half right - he saw it in

> > Manusmr`ti and questioned kallUka Bhatta and

> > meDhAtiThi. But his astronomical explanations

> don't

> > fit(like our solar family is spinning around

> > another SUN, the astromical time is 24,000 years:

> but

> > the real truth is that our aadhitya mandala is

> > orbiting around the Aakaashaganga galactic

> center.

> > This time is 250 million years astronomically =

> > brahma year).But, guru YuktEshwar give this time

> as

> > 24,000 years, It is the precession of earth axis

> that

> > is causing this this - Lagadha of Vedanga Jyotisha

> was

> > the first to point this, 1500 BC. Nonetheless, we

> > should credit Yukteshwarji's correct rethinking

> some

> > 100 years ago when even current science was

> primitive.

>

> Well, I'm not sure about the other sources quoted

> because I have not

> met

> them directly so coludn't study them. But reg.

> Puranas, Soka 3.11.12.

> of

> Bhagavata Purana says as follows:

>

> ayane caahani praahur

> vatsaro dvaadasha smrtah

> samvatsara-shatam nreenaam

> paramaayur niruupitam

>

> TRANSLATION

>

> Two solar movements make one day and night of the

> demigods, and that

> combination of day and night is one complete

> calendar year for the

> human

> being. The human being has a duration of life of one

> hundred years.

>

> Here a day of demigods is taken as one solar year.

> It is taken that

> 360

> daiva days comprise one daiva-varsha or samvatsara.

>

> Then Sloka 18 of the same chapter says:

>

> maitreya uvaaca

> krtam tretaa dvaaparam ca

> kalis ceti catur-yugam

> divyair dvaadasabhir varsaih

> saavadhaanam niruupitam

>

> TRANSLATION

>

> Maitreya said: O Vidura, the four millenniums are

> called the Satya,

> Treta,

> Dvaapara and Kali yugas. The aggregate number of

> years of all of these

> combined is equal to twelve thousand years of the

> demigods.

>

> So I think it is clear that the Mahayugas mentioned

> here are

> calculated in

> divya varshas, which is 360 human years.

>

>

>

> >

> > > Sri Yukteshwar never quoted any shastra while

> making

> > > his satement.

> >

> > He quoted Manu Samhita. We should not blame

> YukTeswara

> > like saying that he is trying to prove, wiser than

> > Srila Vyaasa. I feel, we are mixing jnana with

> bhakti

> > et al.

>

> I don't know what you are talking about. Jnaana and

> bhakti are not

> independently existing realities, but both are Vedic

> processes

> intertwined

> with each other. Therefore it is impossible that

> Puranas say one

> truth and

> Manu Samhita says another one. There should be a

> link between the two.

>

> The 1st Adhyaya of the Manu Samhitha states as

> follows:

>

> ahoraatre vibhajate suryo maanusa-daivike

> raatrih svapnaaya bhutaanaam cestaayai karmanaam

> ahah

>

> 65. The sun divides days and nights, both human and

> divine, the night

> (being

> intended) for the repose of created beings and the

> day for exertion.

>

> pitrye raatryahanii maasah pravibhaagas tu pakshayo

> karma/cestasv ahah krishnah shuklah savpnaaya

> sharvariih

>

> 66. A month is a day and a night of the manes, but

> the division is

> according

> to fortnights. The dark (fortnight) is their day for

> active exertion,

> the

> bright (fortnight) their night for sleep.

>

> daive ratryahanii varsham pravibhaagas tayoh punah

> ahas tatra udagyanam raatrih syaad daksinaayanam

>

> 67. A year is a day and a night of the gods; their

> division is (as

> follows):

> the half year during which the sun progresses to the

> north will be

> the day,

> that during which it goes southwards the night.

>

> So I think that these two quotes indicate that

> there's no discrepancy

> between the statements of Bhagavatam and Manu

> Samhita.

>

> >

> >

> > Best Regards

> > Venkateswara Reddy

> >

> > >However, I have stated in another mail that he

> was

> > >correct in one sense, but he was talking about

> > sub->yugas. So the problem with him is not with

> > >introducing 1200 year long Kali yuga, but with

> > >ignoring the Mahayuga cycles mentioned in the

> > >Puranas. So the truth that he gave was

> incomplete.

> > >But Sanjayji ahve cleared this question up in his

> > book

> > > "Vedic Remedies". Have you read it?

>

> And as I have mentioned in my earlier posts, it is

> actually true in

> the

> sense of sub-cycles as Sanjayji had explained.

> However, Mahayugas

> should be

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

- Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup

http://fifaworldcup.

[Guest guest]

JAYA JAGANNATHA!

 

Dera Venkateshvara,

 

Namaste.

 

>

> Dear Gauranga prabhu, Namasthe.

>

> Appended are the comments:

>

> Here is the problem: if the 360 factor exists in the

> chaturyuga cycle calculation (the verses quoted by

> Gaurangji don't say this, only their translations

> claim so),

 

I was speaking about the human year taken as a solar year. Demigods year is

given as 12 months of 30 days each whereas 1 day is one human year. I can

give quote if needed.

 

 

and if we accept traditional view that now

> we are in year 5103 of kaliyuga, roughly when was

> Shree KrishNa's time? When was Shree Raama's time,

> supposedly, in the last tretaayuga? How does this

> tally with the vamshaavali part of the same puraaNa-s

> where about 2-3,000 years difference is given

> between Shree Raama and Brihadvala, who fought in the

> Bhaarata war? PuraaNa-s also go back in vamshaavali

> all the way to Ikshvaaku, son of Manu of

> satyayugaanta. Ikshvaaku to Raama thus works out to be

> about 2,000 years. Even if we assign 400 years to each

> generation, it is no more than 20,000 years. Is this

> the difference between last satya yuga and last tretaa

> yuga? Don't the puraaNa-s make clear that

> the chaturyuga-s are referred herein, not some

> subcycle whose very concept is not present in the

> puraaNa-s or any shaastra text?

 

lease give exact quotes for your statements. Then we can deal with them. I

have given quotes to indicate the correlation between human and daiva

varsha. For chronology we should consider afew things. For example, some

people and sages of previous ages lived for thousand s and thousand s of

years, so you should take into consideration a different longevity also.

 

 

Any new idea must fit

> in the framework of logic: pratyakSa, anumAna, aitihya

> (upama), and Shruti. Where does the subcycle fit in

> this basis of logic? pratyakSa - is there such a

> natural (not man-made) cycle? anumAna - can it be

> deduced from some other natural event? aitihya (upama)

> - did it happen many times before?

> Shruti - is there a revealed samhita mantra to back it

> up?

 

I'm sorry I did not state that. This idea was proposed by Sanjayji, so

please ask evidence from him. I for myself can see some possibility to this,

however proofs asked for by you are indeed necessary. maybe he has some

revelation from Achyuta das, who was speaking about the subcycles. Let's see

what he says.

 

> This also raises another problem: in Manusmr`ti and in

>

> puraaNa-s it is said that human age in satyayuga is

> 400 years, in tretaa 300 years, in dvaapara 200 years,

> in kali 100 years (which goes against Shruti of 100

> year human lifespan at any time, hence shastra/puraaNa

> on this issue is really false I feel). Now, using this

> very thinking and translations like the ones Gauragji

> posted or kallUka Bhatta/meDhAtiThi, how shall we

> figure out the chaturyuga cycles?

 

I'm sorry, where do you take this information from? According to Srila

Prabhupada, men in Satya lived for 100 000 solar years, in Treta for 10 000

in Dwapara for 1000 and in Kali for 100 or 120 acc. to Parashara. He quotes

a part of the Bhagavata Purana as follows (4.12.13.):

 

shat-trimshad-varsha-saahasram

shashaasa ksiti-mandalam

bhogaih punya-kshayam kurvann

abhogair ashubha-kshayam

 

TRANSLATION

Dhruva Maharaja ruled over this planet for thirty-six thousand years; he

diminished the reactions of pious activities by enjoyment, and by practicing

austerities he diminished inauspicious reactions.

 

Therefore his history should be dated back to Satya yuga. Because in the

Puranas it is not always mentioned in which yuga did a certain personlaity

live, we can aldo judge it according to the longevity.

 

> Connecting human lifespan to daiva varsha - we need

> shaastric (i.e. scientific in ancient India) basis,

> and I can't find any. It has no astronomical nor

> logical basis either. When we discard the 360x in

> yugacycle arithmetic, all vamshaavali-s, traditional

> views about Iskvaaku's, Rama's and KrishNa's times,

> times of the many shaastra texts, and all the

> astronomical references of scriptures fit

> in. Thus, the very chaturyuga cycle gets tied to

 

No, they don't. n che same Adhyaya which I quoted Maitreya explaining the

duration of a daiva varsha, he states as follows (3.11.18.):

 

maitreya uvaaca

kritam tretaa dvaaparam ca

kalish ceti catur-yugam

divyair dvaadashabhir varshai

saavadhaanam niruupitam

TRANSLATION

Maitreya said: O Vidura, the four millenniums are called the Satya, Tretaa,

Dvaapara and Kali yugas. The aggregate number of years of all of these

combined is equal to twelve thousand years of the demigods.

 

So here he explicitly mentions 12 000 daiva varshas, which as a few shlokas

earlier was explained to be 360 solar years each.

 

> seasonal precession - for example, in 12,000 years,

> spring solstice moves from Ashvini to chitraa, in the

> next it moves back to Ashvini. In 30.5 such 24,000

> year cycles (or 71 of 12,000 year chaturyuga-s as

> Manusmr`ti clearly defines 'manvantara') the solstice

> point of earth orbit itself shifts by one nakshatra

> division in a 28 nakshatra system - this is one

> manvantara duration (this is the only place

> ancient sages used the 28 nakshatra division),

 

Please give me this quote from Manu smriti.

Bhagavata Purana says as follows:

 

raajamsh caturdashaitaani

tri-kaalaanugataani te

proktaany ebhir mitah kalpo

yuga-saahasra-paryayah

 

TRANSLATION

O King, I have now described to you the fourteen Manus appearing in the

past, present and future. The total duration of time ruled by these Manus is

one thousand yuga cycles. This is called a kalpa, or one day of Lord

Brahmaa.

 

Therefore if you calculate, each Manu will rule over seventy-one Caturyuga,

and each caturyuga is 4 320 000 solar years long. So this is completely

different from your theory. Let's accept that the sages were speaking aboput

much more vast cycles of time than we would fathom or speculate based on out

observations of the precessional cycle. Obviously this was the only

astronomical phenomena to which Yukteshwar could try to link the theory of

yugas, but there he failed to grasp the truth. Nonetheless, by knowing the

exact duration of a precessional cycle, you could divide a yuga into such

subdivisions, and then you could have subcycles. This was the idea proposed

by Sanjayji. However the exact duration of a precessional cycle is not 24

000 solar years but 25 870 solar years. Other Jyotish Gurus please help me

out on where this information comes from Maybe Varaha Mihira or the Surya

siddhanta gives it. I'm not sure.

 

and

> this is so because the earth orbit itself moves around

> Sun (really, the entire solar disc spins just as earth

> does, hence this), a fact in modern astronomy too. In

> 500 of 24,000 year cycles, this solstice point of

> earth orbit shifts by 180 degrees - the duration of 14

> manvantara-s. Another 14 manvantara-s in reverse order

> complete one full spin of earth orbit wrt nakshatra-s

> (total of 24 million years).This is defined in the

> shaastra as brahma ahOrAtri. Again, this pertains to

> our solar system only, not to Adi Brahma, the Creator

> Brahma or nArAyaNa. Even in nityapUjA, this fact

> is evident:

>

> aum AdityamandalAya namaH |

> AdityamandalADhipatayE brahmaNE namaH |

>

>

> aum sOma mandalAya namaH |

> sOma mandalADhipatayE viSNavE namaH |

>

> aum vahni mandalAya namaH |

> vahnimandalADhipatayE shivAya namaH |

>

> etc.

>

> The higher mandala-s above our solar system are: sOma

> (galaxy), vahni (galaxy cluster), parmESTi, prajApati

> (shaastra-s say there are 10 of these), Adi brahmA or

> nArAyaNa or hiraNyagarBha (in the full universe or

> Brahmaanda). In total, there are seven such mandala-s

> or pariDhi-s: saptAsyAsan pariDhayaH (puruSasUktam).

> Also, beyond our aaditymandala, the nakSatra

> system of 'fixed' reference fails, since they in the

> higher mandala-s move too, albeit extremely slowly

> compared to our Sun's movement around our galactic

> center. But every satyayuga (when jnaana is fully

> awake), our sages add correction factor, and reset

> kaalagaNanaa. This is my little understanding of our

> shaastra-s, padDhati-s, and rituals. May be right, may

> be wrong, I leave it to keen minds to

> pursue sincerely.....

 

Yes, seven planetary ssystems above and below the earthly system is correct,

that gives 14 lokas altoghether. The Bhagavata Purana again describes them

being present in the Virat Purusha as follows (2.5.36-41., sanskrit quote

omitted):

 

Great philosophers imagine that the complete planetary systems in the

universe are displays of the different upper and lower limbs of the

universal body of the Lord.

The brahmanas represent His mouth, the ksatriyas His arms, the vaisyas His

thighs, and the sudras are born of His legs.

The lower planetary systems, up to the limit of the earthly stratum, are

said to be situated in His legs. The middle planetary systems, beginning

from Bhuvarloka, are situated in His navel. And the still higher planetary

systems, occupied by the demigods and highly cultured sages and saints, are

situated in the chest of the Supreme Lord.

>From the forefront of the chest up to the neck of the universal form of the

Lord are situated the planetary systems named Janaloka and Tapoloka, whereas

Satyaloka, the topmost planetary system, is situated on the head of the

form. The spiritual planets, however, are eternal.

My dear son Narada, know from me that there are seven lower planetary

systems out of the total fourteen. The first planetary system, known as

Atala, is situated on the waist; the second, Vitala, is situated on the

thighs; the third, Sutala, on the knees; the fourth, Talatala, on the

shanks; the fifth, Mahatala, on the ankles; the sixth, Rasatala, on the

upper portion of the feet; and the seventh, Patala, on the soles of the

feet. Thus the viräö form of the Lord is full of all planetary systems.

 

And you should also consider that there's a Kaalacakra in every planetary

system, amd the rotate with different relative speeds. Like for us one year

is one cycle of the |Sun's movement, however for the Pitas one days is one

humen months, and for the Devat one day is one human year, while for Brahma

one day is 4 320 000 000 human years. I'm not aware of any Brahmas mentioned

in Vedas or Puranas besides Hiranyagarbha,. or the one living in Brahmaloka

and born from the lotus stemming from Garbhodakashayi Vishnu's navel. His

life duration however coincides with the whole duration of creation.

 

One last note: to understand the Vedic knowledge properly, you need a guru

coming in an authentic Parampara. According to the Padma Purana, only the

four Vaishnava Sampradayas (Sri, Rudra, Lakshmi and Brahma sampradayas) are

consdidered to be authentic. Otherwise you will be subject to speculation,

never mind fom whomever does it originate.

 

Yours,

 

Gauranga Das Vedic Astrologer

gauranga

Jyotish Remedies:

WWW.BRIHASPATI.NET

Phone:+36-309-140-839