vistis defination on Moksha>kautaliya

[Guest guest]

I read the varying opinions on Visti s

defination on moksha.I would like to ask the people who disagreed to be a bit

more ellaborate as I would like to know a bit more about thier view points.

According to you, your identity does not merge

with God but remains.I would like to know what you feel about the following:[not

arguing as I belive we are all here to learn and there cannot be a right or a

wrong answer just trying to look at your point of view]

What is your identity?

Which identity from the various lives is yours

which will remain after moksha?

If you merge with God what will you loose?

Do share the above with me.

Love and regards,

Kanupriya.

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[Guest guest]

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Kanupriya,

I would like to attempt your questions and let me begin with a statement that

the knowledge of the Soul is not something that can be attained by research

with our very limited intelligence(Kaliyuga plus imperfect senses, distractions

etc).This lofty topic is received by approaching a Guru in a bonafide sampradaya

and he will pass the knowledge unto us.The importance of the above is because

Lord Krishna directs us to do so in the Baghavad Gita. Even Brahma the creator

could not approach this topic and only received instructions from the Lord in

his heart.So in Vaishnava schools the Guru occupies a greater place than God

Himself. In India I have read several Vaishnava obituaries which say that the

soul has reached the Acharayas feet , and its the Acharya who will deliver the

soul to the Lord's Feet.

Now this does not impy that we should just accept without a questioning process,

it just implies that we must seek a proper Guru(depend on Krishna to help in

that process) and inquire from him submissively.In my experience reading the

Holy Baghavad Gita and Srimad Baghavatham can be understood only when we

approach the same in the mood of great submission.Even in the case of Arjuna,

Krishna did not start His preaching until Arjuna declared that "I am Your

disciple and devotee".

I wrote the above lines merely because this helped me learn a little and thought

of sharing the same with you.

1) What is your identity?

Iam a spirit soul part and parcel of the Supreme Lord.I am qualitatively the

same but quantitatively minuscule.The qualitative sameness is my true identity,

a spiritual spark.This identity when covered by matter i.e body becomes

conditioned to beleive that its the BODY itself. This bodily covering is

attained by the soul based on its Karma from the previous life.Material nature

which is subordinate to Isvara the controller arranges for the placement of the

soul into the womb of the appropriate mother. If there has been good karma the

soul is placed in the womb of a woman who is Godly and very loving , OTOH if

there is bad karma the soul is born into tough circumstances.The biggest

difference is God's body is NOT perishable , He remains the same but the

individual soul changes its covering until it reaches Satya Loka or Goloka

where it gets an unperishable spiritual body.

 

So the true identity of the soul remains as the spiritual spark, and only the

body changes.The material identity such as man, woman, American , Indian

etc.,clouds the spirtual identity and clearing these clouds and arriving at the

answer is the process of Self-Realization.

2) Which identity from the various lives is yours which will remain after moksha?

 

None, the spiritual spark completely identifies with its spiritual identity as a

servitor of the Supreme Lord. The crux of the Baghavad Gita is in reaching three

conclusions-and this is called Perfect Knowledge by the Supreme Lord Sri

Krishna.

a) Who am I?

I am a spirit soul

b)Who is God?

Krishna meaning all attractive One

c)Whats my relationship with God?

Eternal servitude-I the spirit soul am an eternal servant of the Supreme Lord.

Thus the conclusion is that we relate to God by service unto Him and NOT by

identifying ourselves with different "ism's" such as nationalism etc.How to

serve is an entirely different topic and one can write volumes.

 

The three statements above are the foundation and He drives home these points in

the first 5 chapters of the Gita.Without understanding the above any progress is

difficult.

3) If you merge with God what will you loose?

God is permanent and we as spirit souls are permanent, but we relate to Him

through Servitude as service is beyond any bodily identification or religious

denomination.Two permanent entities cannot relate to each other by impermanent

means.Service to God can be very simple as personal Deity worship. Lets

approach the importance of service from a mundane angle.We develop attachment

by service. If we render service to anyone for a prolonged period we become

attached.This is true between man and wife, friends, parents and child. So this

service is the means of our connecting to the rest of the world. This natural

tendency is a mere manifestation of the constitutional position of the

spiritual spark.We(soul) are by nature happy and seek that happiness and that

is sought by our natural tendency to serve.So the devotee realizes that he is

the atma and also that the atma gets happiness by serving its master God.After

a while the devout becomes very attached to the Served.This turns to love.This

loving relationship is continued after the atma attains moksha(or release from

the cycle of birth and death).After moksha the atma renders personal service to

the Lord.This loving relationship cannot be had if the atma loses its identity

and merges with the supreme. Merging means losing your identiy.For a devotee

hell is better than merging with the Lord as that would take away the atma 's

true happiness i.e service unto the Lotus Feet of the Lord.

The goal of human life is to reach Krishna Prema or unconditional love of God.

But how does love manifest in this world? Pure unconditional love can be that

of a mother toward her child. The child could be having a great time playing

with his friends but the mother concerned about his future calls him into the

house to complete his homework.Now the mother knows that the child would resent

this and this is also not a very pleasant task for her, but yet she does it.So

unconditional love is not about 'feeling Good" on the mental level, physical

level or psychological level.The moment the "feelin good" factor creeps in , it

becomes conditional.That was a deviation but qualifying unconditional is very

important.

The above knowledge was received by the causeless mercy of my Spiritual Master

Srila Prabhupada(Siksha Guru) who appeared in the Disciplic succession of Sri

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

Please feel free to query me and if possible I shall answer or direct you to the

relevant scripture.

Hare Krishna

Sudharsan

..

kanu priya wrote:

Dear Group Members,

I read the varying opinions on Visti s

defination on moksha.I would like to ask the people who disagreed to be a bit

more ellaborate as I would like to know a bit more about thier view points.

According to you, your identity does not merge

with God but remains.I would like to know what you feel about the following:[not

arguing as I belive we are all here to learn and there cannot be a right or a

wrong answer just trying to look at your point of view]

Do share the above

with me.

Love and regards,

Kanupriya.

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sudharshan,

 

More or less i agree with your points except for few

things..

 

> 1) What is your identity? Iam a spirit soul part

> and parcel of the Supreme Lord.I am qualitatively

> the same but quantitatively minuscule.The

> qualitative sameness is my true identity, a

> spiritual spark.

 

The talk of Qualitative sameness with the Lord is way

off the mark i think.What are the qualities that are

same between the souls and Vishnu ?Being happy(Vishnu

is in eternal bliss whereas we are momentarily

happy),Being Knowledgeable (Again Vishnu is omni

scient whereas we are infinitely less intelligent

whereas the Quality of Intelligence is there in both

of us),Being powerfull(We are powerfull in our own way

which is incomparable to what Vishnu is).But what

about the ability to go through pain and suffering ?As

the Jivatman goes through this, shall we now say, Lord

Vishnu undergoes infinite pain and suffering (as he is

quantitatively superior to us in all Qualities ?)

 

This is where the fallacy of this arguement lies !Lord

Vishnu is in eternal bliss, fully knowledgable, the

most powerful, who is above karmic cycles of birth and

death, and above all suffering and Pain.This is not

the case with us, both in quantity and quality.All our

qualities are degraded when compared to Vishnu, and we

can never talk about the Quantity of those qualities.

 

Regards,

Kautilya

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Vishnu Gupta,

My relies are in bold after your comments-

Vishnu Gupta wrote:

Dear Sudharshan,More or less i agree with your points except for fewthings..> 1)

What is your identity? Iam a spirit soul part> and parcel of the Supreme

Lord.I am qualitatively> the same but quantitatively minuscule.The> qualitative

sameness is my true identity, a> spiritual spark.The talk of Qualitative

sameness with the Lord is wayoff the mark i think.What are the qualities that

aresame between the souls and Vishnu ?Being happy(Vishnuis in eternal bliss

whereas we are momentarilyhappy),Being Knowledgeable (Again Vishnu is

omniscient whereas we are infinitely less intelligentwhereas the Quality of

Intelligence is there in bothof us),Being powerfull(We are powerfull in our own

waywhich is incomparable to what Vishnu is).But whatabout the ability to go

through pain and suffering ?Asthe Jivatman goes through this, shall we now say,

LordVishnu undergoes infinite pain and suffering (as he isquantitatively

superior to us in all Qualities ?)This is where the fallacy of this arguement

lies !LordVishnu is in eternal bliss, fully knowledgable, themost powerful, who

is above karmic cycles of birth anddeath, and above all suffering and Pain.This

is notthe case with us, both in quantity and quality.All ourqualities are

degraded when compared to Vishnu, and wecan never talk about the Quantity of

those qualities.

My source of knowledge is not of my own but that received by Acharyas from Sri

Sampradaya (Sri Ramanujacharya) and of Brahma Sampradaya (Sri Madhva,Srila

Prabhupada).I have absolutely no intelligence or the capacity to produce these

thoughts on my own and hence I depend 100% on the mercy of Vaishnavas and Gurus

in the above Paramparas.We in this age are not capable of even learining their

teachings in our short life span , leave alone bringinging up our own.

The Jeevatma though minute in size is qualitatively the same as the Paramatma.To

answer your question as to why does the Jeeva sin,its because its covered by

matter and conditioned due to several births to think that its matter.This

conditioning forces the Jeeva to forget its true identity.For this you have to

understand the existence of the Lord's External Potency or Maya.Birth after

birth the soul assumes that its the external covering or body and works to feel

happiness through the senses or indriya.The level of sukha is again dependent on

the body.The pig is very happy in eating stool.Do you think we can change that?

But again happiness is to be defined here.Happiness experienced due to the body

is quite different from the happiness experienced at the transcendental

level.Likewise the suffering is not for the soul, the suffering is to the

body.The soul suffers only when it identifies with the gross body.So the

realized soul does not suffer because it realizes that its not this body.This

does not mean that a realized soul(Sadhu) does not fall ill.The body may

undergo changes as its only matter but the realized soul is not bewildered.The

realization is that "Iam not this Body".The sachidananda quality enbles the

realized soul to continue with its happy state unmindful of the external

changes.

So when you talk about suffering as a result of sins its the body that undergoes

the pain.The soul suffers if it identifies with the body.

The first step in God-Realization is to realize that you are not the body.

Hare Krishna

Sudharsan

Regards,KautilyaDo You

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sudharshan,

 

As you say you are depending on the knowledge bestowed

upon us by the great vaishnava teachers, so am i...

 

> The Jeevatma though minute in size is qualitatively

> the same as the Paramatma.

 

Mathematically speaking, if a jiva has every quality

of paramatma ,infinitesimal, that jiva is still

perfect !I am still unable to understand how such a

jiva can commit sins and suffer through karmic cycle ?

 

> To answer your question as

> to why does the Jeeva sin,its because its covered by

> matter and conditioned due to several births to

> think that its matter.This conditioning forces the

> Jeeva to forget its true identity.

 

Why does the jiva gets covered my matter as what you

are saying is that the jiva is an infinitesimal of

paramatma!

 

One of the nature of the jivas is to commit sins.Will

all the jivas do that ? NO!There are three kinds of

jivas in this world - Satvik,Rajasic and Tamasic

jivas.The inherent nature (quality) of Satvik jivas is

what you said earlier, that they always want to escape

this karmic cycle by doing good and worshipping god

with the right knowledge.The Rajasic souls are in a

cycle which they will never come out of.The Tamasic

souls would always want to move in the opposite

direction to that of Satvik souls.Now, if you notice,

the inherent quality of tamasic souls is to commit

sins, irrespective of how many chances you givew them

to rectify..

 

What i am trying to say is that there are many

inherent qualities of a soul which is not there in the

supreme being (like the nature of commiting sins), and

even those qualities which u say are common to the

jivas and paramatma, are degraded for jivas...

 

This is a nuanced but fundamental difference in what

we both are saying...

 

Regards,

Kautilya

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Kautilya,

There is only ONE type of Jeevatma but THREE different types of GUNAS or MODES

OF MATERIAL NATURE.Sattwa, Rajas and Tamas are the three diffrent modes of

material nature and the Jeeva is influenced by these modes.At any point in time

the Jeeva is under the influence of one of these modes or a mixture.A realized

soul is transcendental to these modes.

This is dealt with extensively in the 14th Chapter of the Srimad Baghavad Gita

by the Lord.I have pasted one verse from the Bhagavad Gita As it is By His

Divine Grace Srila Bhakthivedantha Swami Prabhupada, where in this is made

clear.-

Chapter 14. The Three Modes Of Material Nature

TEXT 5

sattvam rajas tama iti gunah prakrti-sambhavah nibadhnanti maha-baho dehe dehinam avyayam

SYNONYMS

sattvam--mode of goodness; rajah--mode of passion; tamah--mode of ignorance;

iti--thus; gunah--qualities; prakrti--material nature; sambhavah--produced of;

nibadhnanti--does condition; maha-baho--O mighty-armed one; dehe--in this body;

dehinam--the living entity; avyayam--eternal. TRANSLATION

Material nature consists of the three modes--goodness, passion and ignorance.

When the living entity comes in contact with nature, he becomes conditioned by

these modes. PURPORT

The living entity, because he is transcendental, has nothing to do with this

material nature. Still, because he has become conditioned by the material

world, he is acting under the spell of the three modes of material nature.

Because living entities have different kinds of bodies, in terms of the

different aspects of nature, they are induced to act according to that nature.

This is the cause of the varieties of happiness and distress

Hare Krishna

Sudharsan

Vishnu Gupta wrote:

Dear Sudharshan,As you say you are depending on the knowledge bestowedupon us by

the great vaishnava teachers, so am i...> The Jeevatma though minute in size is

qualitatively> the same as the Paramatma.Mathematically speaking, if a jiva has

every qualityof paramatma ,infinitesimal, that jiva is stillperfect !I am still

unable to understand how such ajiva can commit sins and suffer through karmic

cycle ?> To answer your question as> to why does the Jeeva sin,its because its

covered by> matter and conditioned due to several births to> think that its

matter.This conditioning forces the> Jeeva to forget its true identity.Why does

the jiva gets covered my matter as what youare saying is that the jiva is an

infinitesimal ofparamatma!One of the nature of the jivas is to commit

sins.Willall the jivas do that ? NO!There are three kinds ofjivas in this world

- Satvik,Rajasic and Tamasicjivas.The inherent nature (quality) of Satvik jivas

iswhat you said earlier, that they always want to escapethis karmic cycle by

doing good and worshipping godwith the right knowledge.The Rajasic souls are in

acycle which they will never come out of.The Tamasicsouls would always want to

move in the oppositedirection to that of Satvik souls.Now, if you notice,the

inherent quality of tamasic souls is to commitsins, irrespective of how many

chances you givew themto rectify..What i am trying to say is that there are

manyinherent qualities of a soul which is not there in thesupreme being (like

the nature of commiting sins), andeven those qualities which u say are common

to thejivas and paramatma, are degraded for jivas...This is a nuanced but

fundamental difference in whatwe both are

saying...Regards,KautilyaDo

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