Truthful history of Jyotish?

[Guest guest]

Dear Mark,

I think the understanding of Ancient India and time that its scriptures came

into existence have all along been calculated on the basis of physical remains

discovered as in Egypt.The fact is that in ancient India the scriptures were

carried from generation to generation by verbal recitation.Therefore evidence

sought by western scholars would never be found and it would always be

difficult to establish the times of Vedas by conventional methods.However

Indian system of panchangas tell that kaliyuga started about 8400 yr.s BC or

therabouts and the Epics are dated in earlier Yugas.

Astrology has always been said to be Vedanga i.e. limb of Vedas.Vedangas consist

of Upnishads too so the origin could be around that time.However it was

practiced much earlier as evident from the practice of finding a Good Muhurta

for carrying out auspicious functions, even during times of vedas.

Being Vedanga it would definitely be a misnomer to call it Indus Astrology.

During times of Vedas and even upto the times of later day astrological works

Astrology and other Holy sciences were not taught to people not thought to be

able to do Justice to them and this was the reason that it was passed on from o

Guru to a deserving Shishya by way of oral recitation only so that it doesnot

fall into the hands of people who may use for personal benefit.Even when

Astrology principles were written on paper a type of encryption (KaTaPaYaDi)

was used so that a layman happening to lay his hand on the text would not be

able to understand it.Jaimini Sutras are a good example of this.

As I understand astrology even after it has been translated and commentaries

published on it , what we have is only the commentator's interpretations of the

meaning that was meant to be conveyed, and if taken literraly predictions tend

to go haywire. This is why in almost all astrological works the astrologer is

enjoined to use his Viveka when applying the principles laid down to a chart.

I think of a saying which aptly describes the futile attempts of modern day

scientist to prove time of origin of Vedas applying today's tools.It is said

that one should not try to find out the Geneology of a Rishi(Sage) and Origin

of the River.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

-

Mark Kröger

vedic astrology

Saturday, December 21, 2002 5:02 PM

[vedic astrology] Truthful history of Jyotish?

Hi,Although Astrology was practised on the vedic and already pre-vedic era, no

one today knows exactly what sort of Astrology was practised in those times -

but surely it was sidereal and perhaps the ORIGINAL system of Astrology, which

spread to everywhere in the Asian continent.The Rig Veda mentions astronomical

configurations, which suggest that Vedic culture might even have existed as

early as 6000 to 7000 BC. The Rig Veda constantly refers to the land of seven

rivers and specifically to the largest river Saraswati, where ancient

civilization of Harappa and Mohenjodaro flourished. These cities were highly

developed and only the later Roman progress compared with those of ancient

India.Around 2000 BC due to catastrophic geological changes, the Saraswati

River and its tributaries dried up. This led to a migration to the Ganges River

valley, which became the center of the cultural development that produced Modern

India.The Rig Veda and other Vedic (Gnosis) passages, such as the Atharva Veda,

Yajur Veda and Taittireya Samhita, which is one of the oldest (?) Astrological

work on earth, were concerned with establishing the lunar, or in fact

soli-lunar calendar (Panchanga) for sacrifices and festivals. So, for example

the yagyas or Vedic fire-ceremonies were done only under certain celestial

circumstances via electional Astrology. With modern software have been

calculated where the Nakshatras or asterisms were on equator and sky thousands

of years ago.The Jyotish is often decribed as the Vedic Astrology indicated the

certain time of history. From this basis, however, I prefer to describe it the

INDUS Astrology, because this term is much better. The Vedic period was c.

1500-500 BC and recent investigations of Vedic passages with modern computer

software agree that Astrology was practised definitely earlier in pre-vedic

period, during Indus civilization c. 2600-1900 BC and in fact, already

3100-2900 BC, when certain events could have been observed. However, many

researchers, including me, believes that at least some kind of Lunar Astrology

was practised already 7000 BC.In fact the Aryan invasion must be only an myth.

The "Aryan race" comes from the ideological background of the European thought

of superiority. I believe that Vedic hymns were "codified" in those times, but

the origins are much far in past. Probably the Vedic hymns has nothing to do

with "Aryans" and originates from the Civilizations, which existed before the

Great Flood over 9000 years ago. If you think that all of this sounds

unbelievable, I recommend you to read Mr. Graham Hancock´s excellent book

"Underworld".The evidence indicates an urban civilizations along the

Indus-Saraswati Valley at least early as 4000 BC. If then Astrology was

practised in any form, then the actual age of "Astrology" is at least 5000-6000

years, and in broader sense as old as mankind. The history of human kind is not

thousands but millions years and sustained cultures has found at least after

last glacial period 12.000-10.000 BC.More extreme views lean on theories of

advanced civilisations, like Atlantis and Kumari Kandam, which said to have

been destroyed or submerged under the sea in geological times. The Sumerian

civilization is really not the origin of the "Culture". With modern technology

the flooded kingdoms of the Ice Age are coming to daylight and the whole human

history will be written in new. Lost civilizations such as Atlantis has been

very real.In fact also India´s own "Atlantis" has been found: on January 2002

India´s Minister of Science and Technology released the first results of

carbon-dating of the artefacts from the flooded cities of the Gulf of Cambay -

the results date the artefacts to 9500 years ago.The human settlement has

always been near the waters; rivers, seas and oceans. That should be a matter

of great interest to archaelogists. The sea-level today is 120-150 metres

higher than it was 15.000 BC.Surely also the Astrology has been in some role in

ancients civilizations, but what we can say about truthful knwon history of

(Indian) Astrology?There is evidence that the most primitive form of house

division may have been influenced by the Egyptian divisions of the ecliptic and

date back to between the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC -- when Horoscopic Astrology

was being developed in the Hellenistic period.History of calculating

Astrological chart (with Ascendant) goes hand in hand with the common history

of chronology and the development of technology. Earliest clocks were sundials

and waterclocks – first machine clocks were around 1800 AD and handwatchs

after 1950 AD and the whole observing the time of birth begun in this era.It is

logical to understand that ancient Astrology was very observing and not so

calculating, especially in what comes to the Houses. The oldest horoscope that

has been discovered dates to somewhere 410 B.C and it is not detailed at all.

Really, the ancients didn´t wear wrist watchs ;)Described first by Ptolemy the

earliest method of house division were equal one, where the Midheaven wasn´t

calculated, and in fact also the Ascendant wasn´t so exact one.After the Equal

House system, Porphyry is one of the earliest and simplest methods of house

division. It was originally descriped by Vettius Valens (150-175 AD), but it

was named afterwards by Porphyry (233-c.304), who is known for his work

â€Introduction to Ptolemy's Tetrabiblosâ€.Some say that Maharishi Parasara

was lived around 3200 BC and perhaps Maharishi Jaimini too, but it is hard to

believe that. All evidence date the "Brihat Parasara Hora Sashtra" more likely

to near the era of Aryabhatta and Varahamira, so. 476-587 AD – perhaps

between the 300-500 AD.As we all know, Aryabhata (born 476) was the author of

the first of the later siddhantas called â€Aryabhatiyam†and Varahamihira

(died 587) wrote three important books: â€Panchasiddhantikaâ€, â€Brihat

Samhitaâ€, and â€Brihat Jatakaâ€. There is no doubt, that Parasara was lived

before Varahamira and the â€Parasara Hora Shastra†appears to be considerably

influenced by Greek astrology.It is clear, that the Nakshatras and other

knowledge of Planets was known in very early history of India. The

â€Astrology†was very observing and serving the needs of society. However it

wasn´t â€Astrology†in a sense as we now understand it to be – the

â€Horoscopeâ€-Astrology developed much later.I want to believe to archeologic

evidences and logical conclusions for history by eliminating useless myths. Of

course, the history is also in myths and sometimes the all evidence may be

based on nothing but the myths, but so far we have an chance to consider the

subjects logically, we have to do it.Any comments?Mark__Ota itsellesi

luotettava kotimainen email http://www.jippii.fi/Tutustu samalla netin

parhaaseen pelipaikkaan JIPPIIGAMESIIN.Archives:

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[Guest guest]

dear all;

happy new year and merry x-mas you all may peace

and unity of all mankind direct us to goddwill

of all peopleon the earth.

love and peace is one and the same thing in human

language

rajinder

--- Chandrashekhar <boxdel wrote:

> Dear Mark,

> I think the understanding of Ancient India and time

> that its scriptures came into existence have all

> along been calculated on the basis of physical

> remains discovered as in Egypt.The fact is that in

> ancient India the scriptures were carried from

> generation to generation by verbal

> recitation.Therefore evidence sought by western

> scholars would never be found and it would always be

> difficult to establish the times of Vedas by

> conventional methods.However Indian system of

> panchangas tell that kaliyuga started about 8400

> yr.s BC or therabouts and the Epics are dated in

> earlier Yugas.

> Astrology has always been said to be Vedanga i.e.

> limb of Vedas.Vedangas consist of Upnishads too so

> the origin could be around that time.However it was

> practiced much earlier as evident from the practice

> of finding a Good Muhurta for carrying out

> auspicious functions, even during times of vedas.

> Being Vedanga it would definitely be a misnomer to

> call it Indus Astrology.

> During times of Vedas and even upto the times of

> later day astrological works Astrology and other

> Holy sciences were not taught to people not thought

> to be able to do Justice to them and this was the

> reason that it was passed on from o Guru to a

> deserving Shishya by way of oral recitation only so

> that it doesnot fall into the hands of people who

> may use for personal benefit.Even when Astrology

> principles were written on paper a type of

> encryption (KaTaPaYaDi) was used so that a layman

> happening to lay his hand on the text would not be

> able to understand it.Jaimini Sutras are a good

> example of this.

> As I understand astrology even after it has been

> translated and commentaries published on it , what

> we have is only the commentator's interpretations of

> the meaning that was meant to be conveyed, and if

> taken literraly predictions tend to go haywire. This

> is why in almost all astrological works the

> astrologer is enjoined to use his Viveka when

> applying the principles laid down to a chart.

> I think of a saying which aptly describes the futile

> attempts of modern day scientist to prove time of

> origin of Vedas applying today's tools.It is said

> that one should not try to find out the Geneology of

> a Rishi(Sage) and Origin of the River.

> Regards,

> Chandrashekhar.

> -

> Mark Kröger

> vedic astrology

> Saturday, December 21, 2002 5:02 PM

> [vedic astrology] Truthful history of

> Jyotish?

>

>

> Hi,

>

> Although Astrology was practised on the vedic and

> already pre-vedic era,

> no one today knows exactly what sort of Astrology

> was practised in those

> times - but surely it was sidereal and perhaps the

> ORIGINAL system of

> Astrology, which spread to everywhere in the Asian

> continent.

>

> The Rig Veda mentions astronomical configurations,

> which suggest that

> Vedic culture might even have existed as early as

> 6000 to 7000 BC. The

> Rig Veda constantly refers to the land of seven

> rivers and specifically

> to the largest river Saraswati, where ancient

> civilization of Harappa

> and Mohenjodaro flourished. These cities were

> highly developed and only

> the later Roman progress compared with those of

> ancient India.

>

> Around 2000 BC due to catastrophic geological

> changes, the Saraswati

> River and its tributaries dried up. This led to a

> migration to the

> Ganges River valley, which became the center of

> the cultural development

> that produced Modern India.

>

> The Rig Veda and other Vedic (Gnosis) passages,

> such as the Atharva

> Veda, Yajur Veda and Taittireya Samhita, which is

> one of the oldest (?)

> Astrological work on earth, were concerned with

> establishing the lunar,

> or in fact soli-lunar calendar (Panchanga) for

> sacrifices and festivals.

> So, for example the yagyas or Vedic

> fire-ceremonies were done only under

> certain celestial circumstances via electional

> Astrology. With modern

> software have been calculated where the Nakshatras

> or asterisms were on

> equator and sky thousands of years ago.

>

> The Jyotish is often decribed as the Vedic

> Astrology indicated the

> certain time of history. From this basis, however,

> I prefer to describe

> it the INDUS Astrology, because this term is much

> better. The Vedic

> period was c. 1500-500 BC and recent

> investigations of Vedic passages

> with modern computer software agree that Astrology

> was practised

> definitely earlier in pre-vedic period, during

> Indus civilization c.

> 2600-1900 BC and in fact, already 3100-2900 BC,

> when certain events

> could have been observed. However, many

> researchers, including me,

> believes that at least some kind of Lunar

> Astrology was practised

> already 7000 BC.

>

> In fact the Aryan invasion must be only an myth.

> The "Aryan race" comes

> from the ideological background of the European

> thought of superiority.

> I believe that Vedic hymns were "codified" in

> those times, but the

> origins are much far in past. Probably the Vedic

> hymns has nothing to do

> with "Aryans" and originates from the

> Civilizations, which existed

> before the Great Flood over 9000 years ago. If you

> think that all of

> this sounds unbelievable, I recommend you to read

> Mr. Graham Hancock´s

> excellent book "Underworld".

>

> The evidence indicates an urban civilizations

> along the Indus-Saraswati

> Valley at least early as 4000 BC. If then

> Astrology was practised in any

> form, then the actual age of "Astrology" is at

> least 5000-6000 years,

> and in broader sense as old as mankind. The

> history of human kind is not

> thousands but millions years and sustained

> cultures has found at least

> after last glacial period 12.000-10.000 BC.

>

> More extreme views lean on theories of advanced

> civilisations, like

> Atlantis and Kumari Kandam, which said to have

> been destroyed or

> submerged under the sea in geological times. The

> Sumerian civilization

> is really not the origin of the "Culture". With

> modern technology the

> flooded kingdoms of the Ice Age are coming to

> daylight and the whole

> human history will be written in new. Lost

> civilizations such as

> Atlantis has been very real.

>

> In fact also India´s own "Atlantis" has been

> found: on January 2002

> India´s Minister of Science and Technology

> released the first results of

> carbon-dating of the artefacts from the flooded

> cities of the Gulf of

> Cambay - the results date the artefacts to 9500

> years ago.

>

> The human settlement has always been near the

> waters; rivers, seas and

> oceans. That should be a matter of great interest

> to archaelogists. The

> sea-level today is 120-150 metres higher than it

> was 15.000 BC.

>

> Surely also the Astrology has been in some role in

> ancients

> civilizations, but what we can say about truthful

> knwon history of

> (Indian) Astrology?

>

> There is evidence that the most primitive form of

> house division may

> have been influenced by the Egyptian divisions of

> the ecliptic and date

> back to between the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC --

> when Horoscopic

> Astrology was being developed in the Hellenistic

> period.

>

> History of calculating Astrological chart (with

> Ascendant) goes hand in

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Mark & others,

 

Apologies for the fairly belated response to your post - I really

enjoyed reading it. You closed with "Any comments?" Well, yes -

it's a subject I find absolutely fascinating. I've often fantasised

about doing a serious study though sadly, this will probably not

happen in this life. A few comments then.

 

When we talk about 'jyotish', we are talking about 'the science of

light' and we generally understand this to include several

components - not only natal astrology but also muhurta, prasna,

synastry, nimitta and so on. Yet, when we start to explore the

origins and cross-influences of 'indian' and 'western' astrology,

the conversation often slips into a comparison of natal

astrologies only. This does an extreme disservice to jyotish and

it is not even consisent with 'traditional western' astrology which

is also more predictive and mundane that 20th century,

psychoanalytical astrology. Consequently, to come to a better

understanding of astrology's 'history', we need to retain the

broader, traditional concept of jyotish/ natural science throughout

our inquiries.

 

This concept may then help us to more intelligently interpret the

enigmatic fragments of archeological and historical evidence as

they come to light, and that evidence may also reveal valuable

insights into astrology's muddled past. Is this a particularly

esoteric, fringe interest? I don't think it should be, because I

believe that various elements of the astrological tradition have

had enormous bearing on social, political, scientific and

economic developments over vast tracts of time and locale. The

most obvious example here would be mathematics, where

'astrology' - in its traditional sense - spurred the early

development of most areas of mathematical practise. I think

that there is also plenty of evidence to be found which indicates

its pervasive influence throughout the entire development of the

financial sector.

 

The modern divide between astrology and the inquiry into our

environment (science) is, I believe an 'unnatural' one. In the

context of historical research, it is a major barrier to discovery

and understanding. To make sense of our past, we need to

examine the ways in which observations of the environment

(astrology) influenced our ancestors' behaviours and choices.

 

A perusal of jyotish literature shows that muhurta has always

been one of jyotish's primary objectives - working out auspicious

times to commence activities, so that efforts yield the most

effective results. Its earliest known hints are embedded in the

Vedas - how else to know when to begin the rituals? First you

need to be able to count Time, and then you need to have a

theory that connects a selected time withenvironmental

conditions and desired results.

 

An examination of muhurta principles however reveals that it is

mind-bogglingly abstruse. Many elements cannot possibly at

this point in time be explained 'logically' and its techniques

clearly derive from earlier traditions that differ from the more

common, 'modern' methods. For example, a 28th (22nd)

nakshatra, abhijit, is often added to the the more familiar 27

mansions.

 

My belief is that the muhurta principles predate natal astrology

and harken back to times where people lived very differently, with

entirely different aspirations and priorities. I suspect that the

emergence of natal astrology may in some way parallel the

development of cities, where individual interests began taking

precedence over community concerns. (Sounds a bit

paradoxical? Hey, we're talking human beings.) But by that point

there was already a very ancient tradition of observing the

environment, making choices to enhance survival and counting

Time.

 

Before wristwatches, people looked at the sky to tell the time.

The sun's cycles (actually the earth's) make a clear distinction

between day and night, summer and winter. The moon's cycles

- highly visible at night, no matter what your latitude - make it

easy to keep a track of fortnights, months, seasons. For more

details, the grahas and constellations could tell a tale - if you

were familiar with their repeating patterns. Is it implausible that

early peoples would have noticed the periodicity of the 'lights in

the skies'? I think it is is far less believable that they wouldn't

have.

 

There has not been any known 'organic evolution' of human

beings for quite some time - homo sapiens have been around in

the present form for at least (we think) 100,000 years. It is

possible that the gene pool may have been modified by the

neanderthals up until about 30,000 years ago but that

remains a very contentious issue. Overall, we seem to be pretty

much the same as our distant relatives - physically and

intellectually. Even taking a conservative, CroMagnon view,

people have had the same, organic potential to think for at least

30,000 years. Just because our ancestors didn't have digital

cameras, that's no good reason to think that they weren't

using their grey matter.

 

In recent decades, Hollywood has filled our collective

subconsciouses with images of hairy, grunting cave folk but

homo sapiens (and maybe others) have been speaking for at

least 30,000 years, more likely 120,000 years, and possibly,

much longer than that. Chances are, people have had more to

talk about than just, "Deer. Kill. Wolf. Hide. Bloke. Jiggijig."

A little curiosity - most deciphered ancient languages appear to

have more complex grammars than modern languages. (Okay,

this is mixing up the time line because in this context we're

talking a mere 4 - 5,000 years. We don't have any earlier records

so we don't know about earlier peoples.)

 

How does this connect with jyotish? Both in jyotish and in other

traditional systems, the lunar calendar continues to have a

fundamental role in regulating the sacred activities of a

community. Even christianity retains this custom in the annual

scheduling of Easter - most of its key days are based upon the

solar calendar but Easter is timed according to the lunar

calendar.

 

Archeological evidence shows that groups of people have been

recording the moon's cycles for tens of thousands of years. In

the early 1970's, Alexander Marschak published research on the

notches carved into bones excavated from various African sites,

showing that they recorded the moon's phases. At the time his

findings were regarded as highly contraversial however since

then other artefacts have been found, supporting his claims.

It now seems that people were systematically recording the

moon's phases at least 27,000 years ago.

 

Why? Marschak hypothesised that this would enable groups to

join each other at selected - 'important' - times.

 

Knowledge of the lunar cycle is also likely to have been a

valuable part of navigation skills. If one believes that our

forebears either didn't move, or if they did, it was only drifting by

happenstance, then there is no need for navigation skills.

Personally, I believe that many groups travelled intentionally and

with purpose. The evidence for this is slender because

preliterate, nomadic societies tend to leave few artefacts - at

least that we can recognise. But who knows what will be

possible next week, next year?

 

Physical evidence of purposeful journeying does not become

commonplace until about 4, 000 years ago. The Middle East is

often touted as the 'cradle of civilisation', in particular, the

floodplains of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. (Yes folks, where

the modern state of Iraq is. Am I happy about the US plan to

drop god only knows how many more tons of bombs on to it?

Not likely. But I digress.) Presently believed to have been one of

the earliest urban cultures, the Sumerian cities grew up around

3100 BCE. At roughly the same time - to the west - Egyptian

communities were coalescing into larger, more complex

societies. To the east lay the Indus region.

 

The Indus civilisation is still very mysterious as its language

remains untranslated. The known urban centres mostly seem to

date from about 2500 BCE however earlier settlements existed

from at least 7000 BCE (Mehrgarh). By about 4,000 years ago,

there were cities and settlements stretching the shores of the

Arabian Sea to the slopes of the Himalayas. The physical

evidence shows that these communities were in contact with

each other and had a shared culture.

 

In the late 19th century, the first Indus artefacts were found in

Sumerian/ Persian gulf sites. Since then more have been found

- Indus-style seals, which are different from Mesopotamian

ones, plus Indus weights. I'm pretty certain that Mesopotamian

artefacts have also been found in several Indus sites, but I'd

have to check this up. At any rate, it seems pretty clear that

travel and trade was going on. Obviously, travel implies

navigation skills - the means to judge time, distance and

direction. It also assumes some prediction of risk.

 

Travel also implies communication - when people get together,

they talk. They share ideas.

 

In the intervening centuries, our planet has been awash with the

human tides - from east to west, north to south, back and forth,

over and over. The movements may be on a small scale - a few

intrepid adventurers - or astonishingly massive - the Turks did

not migrate to what is now known as Turkey until about one

thousand years ago, and that began with just 400 families. The

movements may be motivated by war, trade or ecological

catastrophe. Sometimes a ruling regime would relocate an

entire community, either as punishment or to seed an area with

new skills.

 

Over the centuries, astrology's 'scientific' content was often both

a closely-kept secret and a keenly-sought prize. Why? Because

of its commercial and political implications. Only those who had

been initiated, who had learnt its specialised language, were

privy to its secrets. In that sense, it differs not a whit from

modern science.

 

The 'history of astrology' is a fabulously intricate mosaic of

peoples and politics and philosophies and fears. So much

more could be said about 'this region, that time' to show clearly

that people have been sharing their ideas and knowledge for

millenia - but this brief introduction is probably enough until the

'me first, no me first' distractions settle. Firstly, who cares!

Secondly, it's way too chicken and egg to ever be answered.

Thirdly, it's just a tiny little eddy in the vast ocean - look up,

look

around, explore, enjoy.

 

Just one last point...

 

Genuine inquiry sometimes gets throttled by emotional

responses - and boy! can mention of the Vedas trigger that.

Some believe the Vedas to be revelation while others assume

that they must be an accumulation of human efforts and

thoughts. I do not believe that archeological inquiry

will, in any meaningful way, diminish the mystery and subtlety of

the Vedas and I believe it's perfectly possible to both

research our origins and accept that some things are beyond

our comprehension. Personally, I'm quite happy with a paradox

or two before breakfast.

 

Cheers, Kriya