Jaimini's teachings on the circumstances of death (Bush chart comments)

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

> > afflictions show that she would die by assassination? Mars, on

the other

> > hand, although a yogakaraka, does indeed aspect both the lagna

lord and the

> > 8th house.

>

> You are mixing up rasi drishti and graha drishti here. Mars

> aspects lagna lord Moon only by graha drishti. OTOH, Mars aspects

 

I meant rasi drishti.

 

> the 8th house only by graha drishti. Which drishti do you use for

> your principle? For the principles I am using (which are based on

> Jaimini's teachings), I use only rasi drishti.

 

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave namah

`````````````````````````````````

At 01:03 PM 3/5/03 -0500, you wrote:

Om Namassivaaya

Namaste Robert,

 

We are arguing after a long time! It is always nice to discuss something

with you.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my points. As always, it

is an invigorating learning experience hearing from you, Narasimha.

Yes, you are right - I neglected to include the 3rd from A7 also, which,

if stronger than AL, is a more potent point from which to see the

circumstances of death. No, I wasn't inventing anything new - I

simply gave some observations based on known principles and listed

them. From now on, however, I will take into account A7 too, if it

is stronger, and as you have illustrated. One tends to forget

D-11 too in these matters, so thanks for your reminder.

*

* *

 

> Indira Gandhi: In Indira Gandhi's chart, the 3rd from AL has

only Ketu (a

> benefic according to Jaimini), while, apart from Rahu, Venus is the

only

> other planet aspecting the 3rd from AL. So how could these

rather mild

> afflictions show that she would die by assassination? Mars, on

the other

> hand, although a yogakaraka, does indeed aspect both the lagna lord

and the

> 8th house.

 

You are mixing up rasi drishti and graha drishti here. Mars aspects lagna

lord Moon only by graha drishti. OTOH, Mars aspects the 8th house only by

graha drishti. Which drishti do you use for your principle? For the

principles I am using (which are based on Jaimini's teachings), I use

only rasi drishti.

No Narasimha, I am not mixing up drishtis. In Indira Gandhi's

chart, Mars aspects lagna lord Moon by *Rashi* drishti. True, graha

drishti of Mars falls on the 8th house, but the main connection I was

pointing out, was the rashi drishti on the lagna lord. All four of

the cases given, showed a position of Mars - whether functionally benefic

or malefic - either afflicting the lagna, or the lagna lord. This

was the point I was making. I don't see that happening in Bush's

chart, and thus am wary about the prediction about his being

assassinated.

* * * *

In Mahatma Gandhi's case, can you really make a case for the terrible

gunshot assassination with only Sun in or aspecting the 3rd from AL or

A7? Yes, the dicta of sage Jaimini are clear. To me, the

stronger indication of this is the Sarpa yoga involving maraka lord Mars

afflicting the lagna or its lord. This speaks to the actual event

more graphically to me. Still, it is interesting too the point you

make about his remembering the Name of Sri Rama at the time of death, and

this indeed would be indicating by the Sun's participation.

Your points regarding McKinley are well-taken, i.e. the place where he

was assassinated, and also the extended period of suffering - about one

week in the hospital - prior to his dying, as well as closed (Jupiter)

confinement.

*

* *

 

> Still, Raja-Laksmi yoga accounts for a certain level of faith, or

religious

> belief and orientation. Simply because Jupiter is in Marana

karaka sthana

> does not nullify the Laksmi yoga, in my opinion.

 

I am not saying Lakshmi yoga is nullified. I am saying that dharma will

suffer due to dharma lord's marana karaka sthana. I gave other reasons

too.

Then did the dharma of Mahatma Gandhi suffer also, due to his Sun

being in Marana karaka Sthana? In my case too: my dharma would have

to suffer (Sun in 12th), or our friend and colleague Brendan having

Jupiter in Marana karaka sthana in the 3rd? These placements alone

are not convincing to me, to make the native's dharma suffer.

Case in point: I have a chart on file, of a very devoted bhakta, who

serves her guru and mission diligently. She has Jupiter in 3rd in

debilitation, while Sun in 12 in debilitation, both in Marana karaka

sthana. Why hasn't her dharma suffered? In Navamsa, there are

beautiful yogas illustrating steadfastness in the observance of religious

principles. She was not like this her whole life, but certainly is

at this point in time. There are so many examples. If you

want to examine the chart, I will give the data as follows:

Female Bhakti-yogi

November

14, 1961

Time: 8:37:00

Time Zone: 5:00:00 (West of GMT)

Place: 71 W 12'

35", 42 N 20' 13"

Further, Bush has AK Venus in exaltation in Navamsa, while Naiskargika AK

Sun is in exaltation as well. The definitions for these placements

are mentioned by our Jyotish guru Sanjay Rath in his article on Chara

Atmakaraka, wherein he states as follows:

" If AK is in 5th house [of Navamsa] the native is Dharma

Parayana i.e. obeys the laws of his dharma diligently and is

straightforward. If the sun is strong, he shall have many good yogas.

Blessings of his father shall always protect him."

So much is up for interpretation. Astrologers can, and will,

always find a way to reinforce their argument (I do this too!).

However, there must be an impartial weighing of all the principles, not

leaving anything out.

One aspect of Bush that most people do not know about: The first

order of business for the President is usually to hear press briefings

with his colleagues. Instead, for Bush, he holds a 10 minute or

more round of prayer with his colleagues *always* as the first business

of the day. He is the first president in history to do this.

This doesn't necessarily make him a Rishi, but lets just say, it does

come close to a "Dharma Parayana" as mentioned above.

* One last point: If indeed Bush were to be assassinated, what dasa

period - using any method, either Tithi Pravesh, Ayur dasas, etc. - would

you suspect it would happen in?

Always good to debate with you, Narasimha!

Best regards,

Robert

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA

visit

<http://www.robertkoch.com>

and,

http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com

or

Ph: 541.318.0248

[Guest guest]

|| Jaya Jagannath ||Namaste Narasimha,

 

Thanks for putting and explaining the concepts so precisely. However, you didn't

take the 8th house from the relevant Arudha. I think that also matters a alot.

Now in Indira Gandhi's case, third from AL has only Ketu and you said Rahu's

aspect it the key as it shows the duata marana yoga. However when the question

comes, why was she shot, she could have been pushed from a 10 storey building.

Now, we have sufficient reason to believe that it couldnot have been other way

round. This is because the 8th from AL has Sun.

 

In Mahatma Gandhi's case, the 8th is aspected by Jup along with Ma, Ve, Me. The

aspect of so many benefics, didn't make it as violent as that of Rajiv Gandhi.

Jup's aspect shows that he was aware of his death.

 

It is agreed that there is a terrible duta marana yoga in the horoscope of

Rajeev Gandhi as Rahu occupies the third from the AL. However Rahu's evil is

under control in Cancer, why did it get accentuated to show such as terrible

death. This we can see from aspect of Saturn and Mars. The malefic's ONLY

influence on the 3rd and 8th, shows that.

 

You have cited John Lennon's case. Here it not at all clear when we see 3rd from

AL, why did he die a violent death. You have said we can see this in Rudramsa.

However, Jaimini says you can see it in rasi chart too. See his 8th from AL and

it would be clear. It is occupied by Mars, Rahu and Sun.

 

In the Columbia Spaced Shuttle disaster, the 8th from AL has Moon. When Moon is

involved, we can see the Navamsa sign occupied by Moon. This happens to be

Capricorn, which suggests violent or bad-death. Now Sun the planet, placed in

3rd from AL also happens to be in the same Navamsa, strenthening the

indications.

 

Maharishi Jamini also spoke of the 3rd and 8th from AK. However this can be

interpreted as experiences of the Soul while one dies. The death can be painful

and excruciating as shown by AL, however, the person can be at peace, while

dying. Now I have more reasons to believe that Mahatma Gandhi took the name of

Rama becuase Sun is in the 3rd from AK Moon. Now Moon happens to be with AL, so

what you said is indirectly correct.

 

Incase of Rajiv Gandhi, he was warned before his death, however even knowing

that he was not concerned about that. This shows at the time of death he would

have been too confortable with himself. This is shown by aspect of many

benefics on the 3rd from AK. However this cannot be verifiable.

 

I understand that it is good to look at Rudramsa for confirming or judging the

intensity of the event. However we can still take Trimsama and Kaulukamsa

position for exact dilineation of the circumstances of death. These are the

three divisions which Maharishi gave immeidiately after the determination of

circumstances of death from the Rasi chart.

 

Thanks for initiating this nice discussion on the topic.

 

Best RegardsSarajit

 

 

 

 

 

-

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

vedic astrology

Thursday, March 06, 2003 2:03 AM

[vedic astrology] Jaimini's teachings on the circumstances of death

(Re: Bush chart comments)

Om Namassivaaya

Namaste Robert,

 

We are arguing after a long time! It is always nice to discuss something with you.

 

Jaimini's teachings on the circumstances of death apply consistently and without

fail. If they seem to fail in an example, clearly something is wrong with one's

understanding. I humbly suggest that there is no need to invent new principles

and that Jaimini's teachings are sufficient.

 

> Another case in point: Look at the chart of John F. Kennedy, who died by >

gunshot:> > 5/29/1917> 15:00 EST> 71W07:18> 42N19:54> > The AL is Scorpio, the

3rd from which is Capricorn. Now, Capricorn has > only the aspects of

benefics, Viz. Moon, Jupiter, Venus, and Sun. So, you > see, there is more to

it than just malefics aspecting 3rd from AL. Mars, > however, in that chart

does indeed account for assassination, being in > Aries as 8th lord, with lord

of lagna.

 

Jaimini's teaching is that the 3rd from AL or A7 shows the circumstances of

death. In the chart of George W Bush, I took AL because it is stronger. But, in

JFK's case, A7 is stronger. Cancer containing A7 is occupied by Saturn, while

Scorpio containing AL is empty.

 

The 3rd from A7 is Vi. It is aspected by nodes, showing dushta marana (bad

death). Invariably, malefics (esp nodes) will be involved in all violent

deaths.

 

Out of the two aspecting nodes, in fact, Rahu is the one who gives death. In

D-11, he is with Jupiter in 7th and he is the one who will show death

(Jupiter-Rahu combination in D-11 shows death). So Rahu is the one. His navamsa

position is Virgo. As per Jaimini Sutra 3.3.43, the native dies "due to enemies

or his excessive weaknesses".

 

Rahu shows violent death and his navamsa position shows death due to enemies or

excessive weaknesses.

 

* * *

 

> * My point was this: In Indira Gandhi's chart, Ketu alone in the 3rd form > AL

is not enough to indicate death by assassination. Venus too is > aspecting as

well.

 

More than Venus, it is Rahu's aspect that is the key. Rahu is key for a violent death.

> *Secondly, in JFK's chart, which I posted, 3rd from AL has *only* benefics >

aspecting it. This should have given a very smooth or easy death. His > was

the most horrible of assassinations in USA's memory.

 

I have already answered it. If we use AL always and forget A7, it is not Jaimini's fault.

> 1. Mahatma Gandhi: assassinated by gunshot on Jan. 3, 1948> > Oct. 2, 1869>

07:56 LMT (TZ -05:21)> 69E36 21N38> > Lagna is Libra, while AL is Cancer.

There is only the Sun in the 3rd from > AL, while no other planets aspect it.

Sun is neutral in the matter of > death inflictions.

 

I am sorry, that is not right. The dictum on Sun and Ketu not being malefics

applies only to dharmik matters like marriage. When it comes to the 3rd from

AL/A7 and death, Sun and Ketu are malefics. In fact, Jaimini taught that Sun

gives death due to the wrath of king. This is too narrow and could be

interpreted as death for a political reason.

 

Please see p.304 of "Jaimini Maharishi's Upadesa Sutras" by Pt. Sanjay Rath.

This chart is discussed there. As Pt. Rath points out, Sun shows the

involvement of politics/firearms.

 

In D-11, Sun joins Rahu. Thus, Sun carries Rahu's influence in the matter of

death. However, that influence is absent in rasi chart. Thus, violent forces of

Rudra were present in his death (Sun with Rahu in Rudramsa), but he probably did

not feel such violence in the physical process of death. While chanting "Hey

Raam" (again, see Sun's influence - Sun shows Rama), Mahatma must've felt

peaceful while dying. Thus, Rahu's influence on Sun is present only in D-11 and

not in rasi.

> 2. William McKinley (president of US up to his assassination on Sep. 6,

1901)> > Jan. 29, 1843> 23:32 LMT (TZ +05:23:03)> 80W45:56 41N10:58> > Lagna

is 3:21 Libra, while AL is Aquarius. There are no planets at all, > either

occupying or aspecting the 3rd from AL.

 

Again you ignored A7. Taking AL, you can explain neither the nature of death nor the place of it.

 

While Aq containing AL is occupied by only one planet, Cp containing A7 is

occupied by 3 planets. Clearly, A7 is stronger. Now, look at the 3rd from A7 to

see the circumstances of death. It is aspected by Venus, Saturn and Rahu in Sg

and Ketu in Ge.

 

Influence of Rahu again shows a violent death. Rahu also shows shock.

 

Unlike in other charts, Saturn too is involved. Saturn shows death after

suffering, disease, infection, hospitalization etc. McKinley died 8 days after

he was shot, of infection in pancreas and intestines. While Rahu shows the

violence, Saturn shows that suffering. Venus shows some passion involved in the

assassination (just like in Indira Gandhi's chart).

 

Saturn in 8th in D-11 dominates over Rahu and Ketu involved in the death. While

Rahu in Virgo navamsa shows death "due to enemies", Saturn in Sg navamsa shows

death "due to sharp weapons".

 

We noted that Pisces is the 3rd from A7. It should show the place of death. Out

of many things shown by Pisces are hospitals, water fronts, concert halls etc.

McKinley's assassination took place in the "Temple of Music" at an expo. The

organ was playing Bach sonata when the assassination occurred. Pisces - concert

hall - fits perfectly. The final passing away occurred in a hospital and Pisces

fits again.

 

Moreover, Jupiter's aspect on AL/A7 gives death in a closed room (as opposed to

open space). Here Jupiter has no aspect on AL, but he aspects A7 (which we are

taking to be stronger). Thus, death occurred in a closed room.

 

There are so many wonderful principles given by Jaimini Maharshi, which work

consistently. We just have to understand them properly and apply them properly.

> ASSASSINATION> > In all the assassination by gunshot charts shown so far, the

following > apply uniformly:> 1. There is a yoga between the lagna or its

lord, and the lord of the 7th;> 2. Mars and/or Saturn aspects or afflicts the

lagna or its lord;> 3. Mars and/or Saturn afflict the 8th or its lord.

 

More importantly, nodes (and possibly Mars) would have a rasi aspect on the 3rd

from the stronger of AL and A7. Nodes are the significators of vioelent death

and a shocking death. Rahu shows cheating and shock. Ketu shows a mistake

(assassination of a leader invariably involves a mistake of the security).

Together they show violence.

> CONCLUSION> > More case histories with known manner and circumstances of

death, must be > shown in a systematic way, in order to understand the

underlying > principles. Simply quoting yogas by rote, will not always bear

the desired > result.

 

Hasty application never gives good results. But it must be pointed out that

Jaimini's combinations do work always! The only problem is that we sometimes do

not apply them properly. It pays to understand him correctly rather than

inventing new principles.

* * *

 

> * Question: If someone handed you the chart of Indira Gandhi prior to her >

death, would you have been able to predict death by gunshot assassination > ?

If so, how?

 

Perhaps not exactly gunshot, but a violent death certainly csan be seen. Nodal

involvement on the 3rd from AL shows a violent death. Venus in a fiery sign

shows some strong passion. Ketu is in ayur-neecha in the 8th in D-11 and is the

strongest indicator of death out of the 3 planets involved with the 3rd from AL

in rasi. So look at Ketu's navamsa to say more on death. Ketu is in Cp navamsa.

As per Jaimini Sutra 3.3.45, a planet in Cp navamsa gives "a violent and bad

death". So all the factors are corraborated.

 

Predicting whether the violent death occurs by a gunshot or a missile shot or a

bomb explosion or something else is more difficult. But, one thing that one can

say based on this chart with confidence is that death will be very violent and

bad.

 

* * *

> Indira Gandhi: In Indira Gandhi's chart, the 3rd from AL has only Ketu (a >

benefic according to Jaimini), while, apart from Rahu, Venus is the only >

other planet aspecting the 3rd from AL. So how could these rather mild >

afflictions show that she would die by assassination? Mars, on the other >

hand, although a yogakaraka, does indeed aspect both the lagna lord and the >

8th house.

 

You are mixing up rasi drishti and graha drishti here. Mars aspects lagna lord

Moon only by graha drishti. OTOH, Mars aspects the 8th house only by graha

drishti. Which drishti do you use for your principle? For the principles I am

using (which are based on Jaimini's teachings), I use only rasi drishti.

 

* * *

 

> Still, Raja-Laksmi yoga accounts for a certain level of faith, or religious >

belief and orientation. Simply because Jupiter is in Marana karaka sthana >

does not nullify the Laksmi yoga, in my opinion.

 

I am not saying Lakshmi yoga is nullified. I am saying that dharma will suffer

due to dharma lord's marana karaka sthana. I gave other reasons too.

 

Faith, spirituality and dharma are all totally different things. Let us leave it

for now. I have to get back to work.

May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha