Vishnu and Shiva (To Chandrashekhar ji)

April 25, 2003

Om Vishnave Namah

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Narasimha,

Pranaams -

Thank you as always for your illuminating discussions re: Vedic

conclusions, and worship of Shiva and Vishnu. God bless you for

invoking discussion which draws the mind further and further to the

Ishta-devata of all Vaishnavas, Lord Sri Krsna. Since you

have re-opened this subject, I wish to quote some scripture from my own

memory, which serves to not only illuminate the mind, but also embrace

the conclusions of all Vedic scriptures. Please permit me to do so,

as follows:

eko vedah shad--angani

chandhamsi vividhah surah

sarvam ashtaksarantahstham

Yac canyad api vanmayam

sarva-vedanta sararthah

samsararnava-taranah

“All Vedic rituals, mantras and understanding are compressed into

eight words: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. These

transcendental sound vibrations enable one to cross over the ocean of

repeated births and deaths. ” -- Sri Narada

Pancharatra

Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare

Hare Rama, hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare

iti shodashakam namnam

kali-kalmasa nasanam

natha parataro-payah,

sarva vedesu drsyate

" The 16 words of the Hare Krsna Maha mantra

,
are especially meant to counteract the contaminations of the age of

Kali. All the the Vedic scriptures declare, that to save oneself

from the contamination of Kali, there is no alternative but the chanting

of these sixteen words." - Kali Santarana Upanishad

Krite yad dhyayato vishnum

tretayam yajato makhaih

dwapare paricaryayam

kalau-tad-hari kirtanant

"Whatever result was obtained in Satya-yuga by meditating on

Vishnu, in Treta-yuga by performing sacrifices, and in Dvapara-yuga by

serving the Lord’s lotus feet, can be obtained in Kali-yuga simply by

chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra." -- Srimad Bhagavatam

12.3.52

Dvapariyair janair vishnuh

pancaratrais tu kevalaih

kalau tu nama matrena

pujyate bhagavan harih

“In the Dvapara-yuga people should worship Lord Vishnu only by the

regulative principles of the Narada-Pancaratra and other such authorized

books. In the Age of Kali, however, people should simply chant the holy

names of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Hari (Vishnu).” --

Mundaka Upanishad

kaler dosha nidhe rajan

asti hy eko mahan gunah

kirtanad eva krsnasya

mukta sangam param vrajet

" My dear King, although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there

is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Hare

Krsna maha-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be

promoted to the transcendental kingdom." -- Srimad Bhagavatam

12.3.51

And finally, from Sri Caitanya Charitamrta:

kali-yuge, yuga dharma, namera prachara

tathi lagi, pita-varna, caitanyavatara

" The religious practice for the Age of Kali is to broadcast

the glories of the holy name of Krsna. Only for this purpose has the

Lord, in a yellow color, descended as Lord Sri Caitanya

Mahabrabhu." -- Sri Caitanya Charitamrta Adi-lila,

3.40

Best wishes,

Robert

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJC and ACVA

visit

<http://www.robertkoch.com>

and,

http://www.jyotishdiscovery.com

or

Ph: 541.318.0248

April 25, 2003

I truly enjoyed the posting by Shri Naramsimha Rao and would compare

it to a supernova in terms of brilliance!

regards

Hari

April 26, 2003

Om Haum Namah Shivaya

Ÿþ˜na× sarvavidy˜n˜mŸþvara× sarvabh¨t˜n˜Õ brahm˜dhipatirbrahmaõo'dhipatirbrahm˜

þivo me astu sad˜þivom||(21st Anuvak, Mahanarayana Upanishad)

Dear Narasimha,

Thank you for your lovely post. Some SJC members from India have written to me

privately stating that they are so distressed at this sacrilege that is being

committed against their religion, but they have been holding their horses for

fear of igniting the list!

Did you know that the Garuda Purana itself has a lot on Shiva mantras and Shiva

pujas? There are at least 6 chapters devoted to Shiva puja and archana, replete

with beautiful mantras, all of them imparted by Lord Hari. As I mentioned in a

mail earlier to Swee, Sri Hari tells us that Shiva should be worshipped with

the mahamantra "haum", which is the akasha beeja. Hari also teaches that the

atma is shivaswarup:

Shivo daata shivo bhokta shivahsarvamidam jagat

shivo jayati sarvatra yah shivah sohameva cha. (G.P., Purva Khandam, 23:28)

It is in the Garuda Purana, that Sri Hari narrates how Garuda had given the

mrityunjaya mantra Om Jum Sah to Kashyapa (G.P., Purva Khandam, 18). Above all,

Garuda Purana has the beautiful trinity mantra, Om Hrim Hrum. Om is Brahma

beeja, Hrim is Vishnu rupa and Hrum is Shiva svraupa:

Omkaaro brahmabeejam syat hrimkaaro vishnureva cha

Hrumkaarashcha shivah shule trishaakhe tu kramaannyaset. (G.P., Purva Khandam, 20:3)

And it is the same Vyasa who penned the Bhagavat and the Garuda Purana, who also

wrote the Devi Bhagavatam, the Devi Purana and the Markandeya Purana. . Check

out the following lines form the Vishwanathashtakam written by the great Vyasa:

Vaachaamagocharamanekagunasvarupam

Vaagishavishnusurasevitapaadapitham

Vaamena vigrahavarena kalatravantam

Varanasipurapatim bhaja vishvanatham

----Vyasa

(Worship Vishwanatha, the Lord of Varanasi, who is beyond speech, the embodiment

of various attributes, whose feet are worshipped by Brahma, Vishnu and other

Gods, and who has his wife (Gauri) on his left side.)

Actually, the atma is nirantara, and it takes the various rupas of Vishnu,

Shiva, Devi which every Hindu knows about. All of Mahamaya Devi's prayers

state that everything begins and ends in Her. And when each of us pray to

either of the Gods and Goddesses, we visualise each of them in their absolute

Parabrahma rupa. I suppose these things are ingrained in every Indian and

difficult for outsiders to grasp.

It is very interesting to see people quote from Chaitanya Charitamrita ad lib

and out of context. I am fortunate that its in my mother tongue, and the pages

that are devoted to Chaitanya dev's discourses on the dwaita and adwaita

principle are tremendous. Chaitanya Charitamrita clearly depicts Mahaprabhu as

an advaitavad and interestingly that's why Madhav's group were not accepting

him and did not accord him a warm welcome when he visited the South. Also

Chaitanya dev visited all the Shiva and Devi mandirs of fame...and was

specially delighted with his puja and pradakshina at the jyotirlinga, Sri

Mallikarjuna Swami of Sri Shailam and Devi Kumarika at Kanyakumari, and that he

lived in Kashi for a great length of time is a well know fact. Chaitanyadev had

come across the Brahma Samhita in the south and had considered it as one of the

founding scriptures upon which he based his teachings. Brahma Samhita has

shlokas in praise of Durga as do Srimad Bhagavat. In fact Narada Panchratra

says that She who is Katayayani in Vraja Dham, is Bhadrakali in Dwarka. During

Durga puja, in Puri, Vimala Devi is worshipped as the main shakti of the Dasa

Mahavidya in a 15 day grand festival. At this time a small idol of Lord

Jagannath is placed in Vimala devi's temple and is worshipped as Durgamadhav.

Also in Skanda Purana, there stutis and hymns in adoration of Subhadra can rate

among the best of shakti stavas. In Navadwip, the presiding deity is Shyama

(Kali), and during Her puja, offerings used to be regularly send from the

Goswami prabhus.

But as you said, there is no contradiction. These are but the various rupas in

which the Lord is perceived at different times and worshipped accordingly.

Best regards,

Sarbani

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

[pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net]Saturday, April 26, 2003 8:46 AMTo:

vedic astrologySubject: [vedic astrology] Vishnu and Shiva (To

Chandrashekhar ji)

-----------------"You don't see the Lotus feet

of the Lord. Why are you fighting over what his face looks like?"

-- His Highness Chandrashekhara Saraswati

-----------------

Om Hariharaabhyaam Namah

Namaste Chandrashekhar ji,

I have addressed these points in the past, but they keep coming up every now and

then. But I cannot keep quiet because some very wrong notions are being

popularized by some biased people.

Giving quotes from a Purana showing that God X is superior to God Y serves no

purpose. Quotes from puranas are a double edged sword! If a Vaishnava gives a

quote from Garuda Purana saying that Vishnu is supreme, a Shaiva can give a

quote from Linga Purana saying that Shiva is supreme.

Linga purana says that Vishnu, Brahma and the entire universe came from Shiva.

It also contains an interesting story. According to that story, an argument

arose between Brahma and Vishnu on who was superior. They were arguing. Then

Shiva expressed in front of them as a brilliant Jyotirlinga (column of light

and fire) that extended in two directions. Brahma and Vishnu wanted to find the

ends of the Jyotirlinga. They went in the upward and downward directions (that

is why dasamsa rulerships include Brahma and Achyuta/Vishnu in addition to the

rulers of the 8 directions). They agreed that whoever found the end first would

win. Brahma and Vishnu went in their respective directions and searched for the

end for days. Neither found the end after many days and finally they both gave

up, agreeing that neither of them is supreme and it is *Shiva* who is the

supreme one! Shiva then appeared in front of them and taught them,"we three are

part of the same supreme Parabrahman that pervades this universe. We three have

three specific roles. We should not fight with each other on who is superior."

Also, there is a story in Mahabharata written by Vyasa (see Drona parva).

Narayana engaged in an extreme penance (tapas) for 60,000 years. Then Shiva was

happy with the penance and came before Narayana along with Parvati to give a

great boon to Narayana in the form of Nara. Later, Narayana and Nara took the

forms of Krishna and Arjuna. In that penance episode, Shiva was described as

"the Lord of all gods" (sarvadevairapeeswaram) and as "smaller than the

smallest sub-atom and greater than the greatest entity" (aNeeyasaamaNeeyaamsam

brihadbhyascha brihattaram). The detailed description there lauds Shiva as the

greatest and supreme deity of the universe.

Of course, one can find many more examples where one god or the other is said to

be the supreme one. In Scriptures and religious literature, it is customary to

find glorification of each god (Vishnu, Shiva and Shakti) saying that the rest

of the gods came from that particular god and they all pray to him/her and bow

at his/her feet.

All these should make any intelligent person aware that pursuing this concept of

"superiority" to its logical end, as if we were taking about simple human

beings, is quite childish. After all, Skandopanishat says "yatha shivamayo

vishnur evam vishnumayah shivah" (thanks to Sarbani for the quote). It means

"just as Vishnu is filled with Shiva, so is Shiva filled with Vishnu".

Vishnu has been depicted as a worshipper of Shiva. His avataras such as Rama and

Krishna also worshipped Shiva. Shiva, on the other hand, has been depicted as a

great worshipper of Vishnu. The name "Shiva" appears in Vishnu's 1000 names.

The names "Vishnu" and "Hari" appear in Shiva's 1000 names. All these things

and the contradictory scriptural references should make one think.

Overall, looking at all the scriptural references, we can conclude the following:

Vishnu is superior to Shiva. Shiva is superior to Vishnu. Vishnu worshipped

Shiva and was blessed by Shiva. Shiva worshipped Vishnu and was blessed by

Vishnu. Vishnu is a superset of Shiva. Shiva is a superset of Vishnu.

Does it make sense? Or, does it sound contradictory? If so, perhaps you need to

change your way of thinking. After all, every assertion made above has

scriptural support!!

To enable you to come to terms with the apparent contradiction, I'll go back to

my favorite analogy. Even though it sounds simplistic, it's very profound and

is the perfect analogy here.

In the world of finite numbers, x > y, x = y and x < y cannot be true

simultaneously. Only one of them can be correct. But, in the world of infinite

numbers, they all can be true simultaneously! If x and y are two infinite

numbers, then x can be greater than y, equal to y and less than y, all at the

same time!

Human beings are similar to finite numbers. The concept of god or divinity is

akin to the concept of infinity. Don't expect your simplistic finite thinking

to capture the realities of divinity perfectly. If you don't realize this and

expect some simplistic and rigid hierarchy among gods, you are only kidding

yourselves. You will then have to ignore some scriptures and stick to some

scriptures (which will make all your arguments meaningless). That is what

Gauranga and others are doing. They are ignoring some scriptures and heavily

quoting other scriptures and yet seem to think that their arguments are

conclusive (they aren't, for the reasons I have outlined).

Now, a few miscellaneous comments on a few points made recently:

(1) Lord Ganesha is the one who should be worshipped first. Most Hindu priests

(whether Vaishnava or Shaiva) start Vedic rituals with Ganesha's worship with

the following mantra:

om ganaanaam tvaa ganapatim havaamahe kavim kaveenaamupamasravastamam

jyeshtharaajam brahmanaam brahmanaspata aa nah srinvannootibhisseedasaadanam

(2) Shiva represents tamas, as he is completely devoid of passion. But it does

not mean worshipping Shiva is tamasik.

The 3 gunas (primordial natures) were never intended to be classified as good

and bad gunas. If rajas and tamas had been "bad" gunas, they would not have

found place in the creation of God. Tamas has been interpreted by most scholars

simply as dullness. But that is only one aspect of it. On the positive side, it

stands for a completely stable state where there is no passion whatsoever. The

three gunas and the trinity of gods represent three eseential (and good)

natures. Looking down upon tamas and hence upon Shiva is not right. There are a

lot of misconceptions.

(3) If you are faced with tamasic problems in life, there is no better way than

worshipping Shiva. Recital of Maha Mrityunjaya mantra, Rudra Namakam and Rudra

Chamakam do have the sanction of great sages. ALL people can read them when

they have to overcome tamaic problems in life.

Often people talk about only moksha (BTW, Shiva can grant moksha too. He grants

moksha as Maheswara). But don't forget that dharma, artha and kaama are as

important. If unfinished karma remains, moksha cannot come. As far as dharma

(duty) is concerned, it comes in 4 forms - duty towards self, duty towards

family, duty towards society and duty towards universe (Drigdasa allows us to

measure how much of each duty is followed at a given point of time). Protection

of body is the most basic duty. If you have tamasik problems impeding you in

your duties, you better pray to Shiva to remove them.

(4) People often equate "worship of Shiva" to "worship with desires". That's not

right. Shiva can remove tamas and give desires, but he can be worshipped without

desires too. He too can grant moksha.

(5) The bottomline: Whether one is a Vaishnava or a Shiava does not really

matter. If one completely surrenders to the Supreme Divinity of the universe

(whether one calls it as Krishna or SadaShiva or AdiShakti or Parabrahman or by

whatever name) and overcomes the six enemies within, one will attain moksha.

Whether one is a devotee of Vishnu or Shiva, that is the final goal anyway.

* * *

The only reason I spoke out is that some so-called-Vaishnavas who to a

fanatic school of thought that ignores the basic Vaishnava traits of compassion

and humility are unfairly creating a feeling of guilt among sincere Shiva

devotees on this list with their constant barrage of biased scriptural quotes

that belittle Shiva worship one way or the other.

Let me end this discussion with a nice quote from Vedas. One should note that

Puranas are meant for teaching advanced concepts in a simple and understandable

way to laymen, while Vedas put the ultimate truths in a crisp language without

any compromises or creative liberties.

ekam sadvipraa bahudhaa vadanti [RigVeda, 1.164.46]

"The One Supreme Lord, who is infinitely beyond the infinite scope of

superlatives, is called by different names by the learned men."

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info:

vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light

shine on us .......

April 26, 2003

Dear Narasimharaoji,

Thank you for supporting my views.As you are no doubt aware, I desist from

writing on things religious. However, when I saw some wrong concepts being

propogated, I could not resist responding.I may not be a practicing Hindu, but

am proud of the deep philosophy and open mind on which my religion is based. I

also happen to believe that the sages wanted us to live our rreligion rather

than playing one god against another without understanding the true nature and

form of the Paratman.I trust you will pardon me as I just could not resist

responding.

With warm regards,

Chandradhekhar.

-

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

vedic astrology

Saturday, April 26, 2003 8:45 AM

[vedic astrology] Vishnu and Shiva (To Chandrashekhar ji)