Vishnu and Shiva (To Sundeep)

[Guest guest]

Dear Sundeep,

 

I was busy in the last two days making preparations for JHoraLite 5.0 release

and could not reply. The only reason I am willing to let the debate drag on and

still participating in it is my confidence in the current planetary positions. I

feel that some good may come out of the debate this time.

 

Before proceeding further, I just want to clarify one thing. I never questioned

Vishnu's superiority. I was only trying to say that the meaning of the sentence

"Vishnu is superior to Shiva" is different from what many people seem to be

thinking. They are thinking in a very constrained and finite way and looking at

Vishnu and Shiva like normal human beings like you and me and looking at the

sentence "Vishnu is superior to Shiva" as an equivalent of "president is

superior to secretary of state". It's not so simple.

 

I am only trying to say that, while Vishnu is superior to Shiva and Shiva came

from Vishnu and received his energies from Vishnu, Vishnu also came from Shiva

and received his energies from Shiva. After all, Vishnu and Shiva are different

expressions of the same supreme Brahman. Though Vishnu came from Shiva and Shiva

came from Vishnu, the bottomline is that both of them existed since time minus

infinity. They have neither a beginning nor an end. It's a cosmic cycle that

has no beginning and no end.

 

All this may sound silly and you are welcome to dismiss me as a "misguided

philosopher" as a respected colleague said, but what I am saying is mentioned

in Upanishats and is not my invention.

 

But just think of one thing. Where is Vaikuntha? Where does Vishnu live? Does it

exist in the four dimensions that we can perceive? Or, do Vaikuntha and Vishnu

exist in a universe that extends to other dimensions apart from the four

dimensions we can perceive? Could that universe have infinite dimensions? Could

it be possible that we cannot see (perceive) Vaikuntha and Vishnu accurately

unless we gain the ability to enter those additional dimensions? When we live

and think in four dimensions, could our common sense go haywire when we are

thinking of Gods who exist in an infinite-dimensional space? Could concepts

that sound silly (like X coming from Y and Y coming from X and yet both having

no beginning and no end) be correct in that space? Could upanishats be correct?

 

I am only suggesting that expansive thinking and trying to understand the

purport of venerable and brilliant Upanishadic sayings is an alternative to

limited, constrained and simplistic thinking that attempts to look at gods and

their relations like relations in our families and societies and provides

simplistic and yet clear-cut answers.

 

> Dear PVR,> The debate you refer to (Vishnu "versus" Shiva) continues with

posts > from other members establishing the Srimad Bhagvatam as a more >

authentic and final source than others you have quoted, thereby > bringing some

of your brilliant arguments into question (I mean no > disrespect here - simply

following the sequence of posts).

 

I understand what you mean. But the idea is not to have a debate competition and

declare a winner. All the posts in the current thread will hopefully serve as

food for thought for a long time to come. I have a lot of confidence in the

current planetary transits.

 

In general, suggestion that some of the brilliant writings of Vyasa mean nothing

and a single book written later is the final authority is too simplistic and

perhaps even frivolous. Vyasa is too great to write many books without perfect

understanding and clean it up all in one final book. I wouldn't even consider

that possibility. The only possibility that I would consider is that the

apparent contradictions are indeed not contradictions somehow. I would simply

dismiss any suggestions that Vyasa did not mean what he wrote when he was

writing several books.

 

> I am personally not of any opinion - I only like to be a careful > reader and

careful learner. Can I propose that you bring more clarity

 

That is a smart thing to do!

> to this "debate" by answering the following question:> > 1) Does it not

follow reason that if Vishnu were the only grantor of > Moksha, that (a) all

enlightened/emancipated people in the history of > this planet would only have

Vishnu avatar Ishta Devatas (b) Since

 

Parasara definitely knows more than all of us on this list. So let us listen to

him. In the section on karakamsa in BPHS, Parasara taught about Ketu in 12th

from Karakamsa with various planets bringing moksha through the worship of

various deities. For example, Moon and Ketu in the 12th from karakamsa in Sg or

Ar brings moksha through the worship of Mother Gouri. Jupiter and Ketu in the

12th from karakamsa in Sg or Ar bring moksha through the worship of Lord Shiva.

These are the words of Parasara. Please read that section of BPHS yourself if

you don't believe me.

> most people outside the Indian subcontinent (in the history of this > world)

have not even been Hindus, does it not also follow reason that > there would be

no emancipated people ever outside the Indian > subcontinent?

 

Here we can only speculate. In my guess, a great Sikh saint or a Jain saint or a

Buddhist saint or an Islamic Sufi saint is as likely to get moksha as a Hindu

saint. After all, Krishna said in Gita that "one praying to any god is in fact

praying to me only, albeit without knowing it".

 

Like somebody said, God has no identity crisis. Only man does. The same supreme

Brahman manifests in many forms. Some call that supreme Brahman as Krishna and

some call it as Allah.

> It seems to be that "a" is a very testable hypothesis. "b" seems to > be a

ludicrous statement(establishing God as partial to Hindus - as > quickly

pointed out by Ajith), unless of course, people show there to > be non Hindu

avatars of Vishnu, which are being worshipped by non > Hindus, who are

consequently being enlightened in spite of being non > Hindu. Are there

acceptably non Hindu avatars of Vishnu?

> > Hope the import of my statements is "seen".> > Thank you,> > Sundeep

 

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha