Guest guest Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 Namaste Kasim, > Then the guru of Vyasadeva, Narada Muni, came and Vyasadeva > inquired from his guru why he did not feel satisfied. Vyasadeva > asked his guru why even after completing all the departments of > knowledge he was not satisfied? Then Narada Muni said, "Actually > you are a cheater. You have cheated the people of the world and > you have done a very wrong thing." What you wrote is frivolous. Narada did not call Vyasa a "cheater". I read the 1st canto of Srimadbhagavatam again and did not find any stanza that calls Vyasa a cheater. To strengthen your point, you are simply exaggerating and putting a heavy spin on Narada's beautiful instruction to Vyasa to sing the glory of the Lord to lessen the misery of the people of this age. Narada told Vyasa to write on the Lila of Krishna not because Vyasa had cheated until then, but because Krishna's glories would bring relief to people (which does not imply that Shiva's lila or Devi's lila would not bring relief). Kindly give me the stanza and prati-padaartham (word-by-word meaning from Sanskrit to English) that establishes what you wrote above. > The fact that Vyasa composed the Bhagavata only after completing > all of the other Puranas can be verified by examining the dialogue > between Vyasa and Narada, recorded in the first skandha. The point that bhagavatam is a brilliant spiritual guide does not need to imply that other spiritual guides are any less. I never understand why some people demand exclusivity in whatever they read. If Bhagavatam is a great text, why should it imply that Shiva puranam is wrong or Devi bhagavatam is wrong? Why can't they all be right? Simplistic thinking... In general, suggestion that some of the brilliant writings of Vyasa mean nothing and a single book written later is the final authority is too simplistic and perhaps even frivolous. Vyasa is too great to write many books without perfect understanding and clean it up all in one final book. I wouldn't even consider that possibility. The only possibility that I would consider is that the apparent contradictions are indeed not contradictions somehow. I would simply dismiss any suggestions that Vyasa did not mean what he wrote when he was writing several books. May Jupiter's light shine on us,Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Dearest Narashima and fortunate list members, I hope you are all well. And with this current planetary positions I am hopeful that we can all learn more about Vedic knowledge that Srila Vyasadeva, son of Sage Parasara, compiled for our benefit. Throughout this mail my comments are in blue. Then Narada Muni said, "Actually you are a cheater. You have cheated the people of the world and you have done a very wrong thing." I quoted this from the following website http://www.gosai.com/krishna-talk/how-great-prabhupada.html I hang my head in utter shame, humiliation and embarrassment for doing so. As it is the commentary of someone else and not of Srila Prabhupada. So I went away in personal disgrace to enquire from the beautiful Srimad Bhagvatam that Srila Prabhupada has given the whole world. A lot of very valid points have already been raised by fellow list member Robert Koch during this time. I will now quote authentically from our dearest spiritual master to address all your points. With any guide book one should take the conclusion as the final recommendation. Vyasedava compiled the Vedas and the supplementary Puranas and then Vedanta then had to commentate on Vedanata as the final summum bonum “Bhagvat Purana” (Srimad Bhagavatam). So this is his final message or conclusion. Why do you think this one was left to the end? (NB despite being the final the actual knowledge is eternal) SB Canto 1 Chapter 1 TEXT 3 nigama-kalpa-taror galitam phalam suka-mukhad amrta-drava-samyutam pibata bhagavatam rasam alayam muhur aho rasika bhuvi bhavukah TRANSLATION O expert and thoughtful men, relish Srimad-Bhagavatam, the mature fruit of the desire tree of Vedic literatures. It emanated from the lips of Sri Sukadeva Gosvami. Therefore this fruit has become even more tasteful, although its nectarean juice was already relishable for all, including liberated souls. PURPORT In the two previous slokas it has been definitely proved that the Srimad-Bhagavatam is the sublime literature which surpasses all other Vedic scriptures due to its transcendental qualities. It is transcendental to all mundane activities and mundane knowledge. In this sloka it is stated that Srimad-Bhagavatam is not only a superior literature but is the ripened fruit of all Vedic literatures. In other words, it is the cream of all Vedic knowledge. Considering all this, patient and submissive hearing is definitely essential. With great respect and attention, one should receive the message and lessons imparted by the Srimad-Bhagavatam. The Vedas are compared to the desire tree because they contain all things knowable by man. They deal with mundane necessities as well as spiritual realization. The Vedas contain regulated principles of knowledge covering social, political, religious, economic, military, medicinal, chemical, physical and metaphysical subject matter and all that may be necessary to keep the body and soul together. Above and beyond all this are specific directions for spiritual realization. Regulated knowledge involves a gradual raising of the living entity to the spiritual platform, and the highest spiritual realization is knowledge that the Personality of Godhead is the reservoir of all spiritual tastes, or rasas. If you have knowledge of a concluding Purana that came after this then I would be eager to receive. Or if you can prove that any verses of the Bhagvatam have been added in later by “Anti Lord Siva” men then please inform me. You might be able to…. But first lets see what the great Sage Narda Muni really said to Srila Vyasadeva: SB Canto 1 Chapter 1 TEXT 8 TEXT sri-narada uvaca bhavatanudita-prayam yaso bhagavato 'malam yenaivasau na tusyeta manye tad darsanam khilam TRANSLATION Sri Narada said: You have not actually broadcast the sublime and spotless glories of the Personality of Godhead. That philosophy which does not satisfy the transcendental senses of the Lord is considered worthless. PURPORT The eternal relation of an individual soul with the Supreme Soul Personality of Godhead is constitutionally one of being the eternal servitor of the eternal master. The Lord has expanded Himself as living beings in order to accept loving service from them, and this alone can satisfy both the Lord and the living beings. Such a scholar as Vyasadeva has completed many expansions of the Vedic literatures, ending with the Vedanta philosophy, but none of them have been written directly glorifying the Personality of Godhead. Dry philosophical speculations even on the transcendental subject of the Absolute have very little attraction without directly dealing with the glorification of the Lord. The Personality of Godhead is the last word in transcendental realization. The Absolute realized as impersonal Brahman or localized Supersoul, Paramatma, is less productive of transcendental bliss than the supreme personal realization of His glories. The compiler of the Vedanta-darsana is Vyasadeva himself. Yet he is troubled, although he is the author. So what sort of transcendental bliss can be derived by the readers and listeners of Vedanta which is not explained directly by Vyasadeva, the author? Herein arises the necessity of explaining Vedanta-sutra in the form of Srimad-Bhagavatam by the self-same author. No Puranas are incorrect. But we cannot directly grasp Vedanta in kali yuga. No-one has the pure qualities to go direct. What to speak of the Vedas. We need a guru. Surely Srila Vyasadeva is the most qualified to commentate on the real meaning of Vedanata??? This is Srimad Bhagavatam. SB Canto 1 Chapter 1 TEXT 14 TEXT tato 'nyatha kincana yad vivaksatah prthag drsas tat-krta-rupa-namabhih na karhicit kvapi ca duhsthita matir labheta vatahata-naur ivaspadam SYNONYMS TRANSLATION (Narada Muni said to Vyasadeva)Whatever you desire to describe that is separate in vision from the Lord simply reacts, with different forms, names and results, to agitate the mind as the wind agitates a boat which has no resting place. PURPORT Sri Vyasadeva is the editor of all descriptions of the Vedic literatures, and thus he has described transcendental realization in different ways, namely by fruitive activities, speculative knowledge, mystic power and devotional service. Besides that, in his various Puranas he has recommended the worship of so many demigods in different forms and names. The result is that people in general are puzzled how to fix their minds in the service of the Lord; they are always disturbed about finding the real path of self-realization. Srila Naradadeva is stressing this particular defect in the Vedic literatures compiled by Vyasadeva, and thus he is trying to emphasize describing everything in relation with the Supreme Lord, and no one else. In fact, there is nothing existent except the Lord. The Lord is manifested in different expansions. He is the root of the complete tree. He is the stomach of the complete body. Pouring water on the root is the right process to water the tree, as much as feeding the stomach supplies energy to all parts of the body. Therefore, Srila Vyasadeva should not have compiled any Puranas other than the Bhagavata Purana because a slight deviation from that may create havoc for self-realization. If a slight deviation can create such havoc, then what to speak of deliberate expansion of the ideas separate from the Absolute Truth Personality of Godhead. The most defective part of worshiping demigods is that it creates a definite conception of pantheism, ending disastrously in many religious sects detrimental to the progress of the principles of the Bhagavatam, which alone can give the accurate direction for self-realization in eternal relation with the Personality of Godhead by devotional service in transcendental love. The example of the boat disturbed by whirling wind is suitable in this respect. The diverted mind of the pantheist can never reach the perfection of self-realization, due to the disturbed condition of the selection of object. Kasim Why was such a havoc path given in the first place then? The answer comes in bold below: Lord Caitanaya spoke: "Sri Vyasadeva very kindly compiled the Vedic knowledge in his Vedanta-sutra, but if one hears the commentation of the Mayavada school (as represented by the Sankara-sampradaya) certainly he will be misled on the path of spiritual realization. "The theory of emanations is the beginning subject of the Vedanta-sutra. All the cosmic manifestations are emanations from the Absolute Personality of Godhead by His inconceivable different energies. The example of the touchstone is applicable to the theory of emanation. The touchstone can convert an unlimited quantity of iron into gold, and still the touchstone remains as it is. Similarly, the Supreme Lord can produce all manifested worlds by His inconceivable energies, and yet He is full and unchanged. He is purna [complete], and although an unlimited number of purnas emanate from Him, He is still purna. "The theory of illusion of the Mayavada school is advocated on the ground that the theory of emanation will cause a transformation of the Absolute Truth. If that is the case, Vyasadeva is wrong. To avoid this, they have skillfully brought in the theory of illusion. But the world or the cosmic creation is not false, as maintained by the Mayavada school. It simply has no permanent existence. A nonpermanent thing cannot be called false altogether. But the conception that the material body is the self is certainly wrong. "Pranava [om], or the omkara in the Vedas, is the primeval hymn. This transcendental sound is identical with the form of the Lord. All the Vedic hymns are based on this pranava omkara. Tat tvam asi is but a side word in the Vedic literatures, and therefore this word cannot be the primeval hymn of the Vedas. Sripada Sankaracarya has given more stress on the side word tat tvam asi than on the primeval principle omkara." The Lord thus spoke on the Vedanta-sutra and defied all the propaganda of the Mayavada school. * The Bhattacarya tried to defend himself and his Mayavada school by jugglery of logic and grammar, but the Lord defeated him by His forceful arguments. He affirmed that we are all related with the Personality of Godhead eternally and that devotional service is our eternal function in exchanging the dealings of our relations. The result of such exchanges is to attain prema, or love of Godhead. When love of Godhead is attained, love for all other beings automatically follows because the Lord is the sum total of all living beings. The Lord said that but for these three items--namely, eternal relation with God, exchange of dealings with Him and the attainment of love for Him--all that is instructed in the Vedas is superfluous and concocted. The Lord further added that the Mayavada philosophy taught by Sripada Sankaracarya is an imaginary explanation of the Vedas, but it had to be taught by him (Sankaracarya) because he was ordered to teach it by the Personality of Godhead. In the Padma Purana it is stated that the Personality of Godhead ordered His Lordship Siva to deviate the human race from Him (the Personality of Godhead). The Personality of Godhead was to be so covered so that people would be encouraged to generate more and more population. His Lordship Siva said to Devi: "In the Kali-yuga, I shall preach the Mayavada philosophy, which is nothing but clouded Buddhism, in the garb of a brahmana." After hearing all these speeches of the Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Bhattacarya was struck with wonder and awe and regarded Him in dead silence. The Lord then encouraged him with assurance that there was no cause to wonder. "I say that devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead is the highest goal of human life." He then quoted a sloka from the Bhagavatam and assured him that even the liberated souls who are absorbed in the spirit and spiritual realization also take to the devotional service of the Lord Hari because the Personality of Godhead has such transcendental qualities that He attracts the heart of the liberated soul too. Kasim’s own limited understanding: The Kali Yuga is there now, and the population of the world has gone up dramatically in the past 5,000 years. Lord Caitanya is SO merciful that he wants as many fallen souls as possible to hear his message. His movement started 500 years ago and Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON will push it forward for 10,000 years. SB Canto 1 Chapter 1 TEXT 15 TEXT jugupsitam dharma-krte 'nusasatah svabhava-raktasya mahan vyatikramah yad-vakyato dharma ititarah sthito na manyate tasya nivaranam janah TRANSLATION The people in general are naturally inclined to enjoy, and you have encouraged them in that way in the name of religion. This is verily condemned and is quite unreasonable. Because they are guided under your instructions, they will accept such activities in the name of religion and will hardly care for prohibitions. PURPORT Srila Vyasadeva's compilation of different Vedic literatures on the basis of regulated performances of fruitive activities as depicted in the Mahabharata and other literature is condemned herewith by Srila Narada. The human beings, by long material association, life after life, have a natural inclination, by practice, to endeavor to lord it over material energy. They have no sense of the responsibility of human life. This human form of life is a chance to get out of the clutches of illusory matter. The Vedas are meant for going back to Godhead, going back home. To revolve in the cycle of transmigration in a series of lives numbering 8,400,000 is an imprisoned life for the condemned conditioned souls. The human form of life is a chance to get out of this imprisoned life, and as such the only occupation of the human being is to reestablish his lost relationship with God. Under the circumstances, one should never be encouraged in making a plan for sense enjoyment in the name of religious functions. Such diversion of the human energy results in a misguided civilization. Srila Vyasadeva is the authority in Vedic explanations in the Mahabharata, etc., and his encouragement in sense enjoyment in some form or other is a great barrier for spiritual advancement because the people in general will not agree to renounce material activities which held them in material bondage. At a certain stage of human civilization when such material activities in the name of religion (as sacrificing animals in the name of yajna) were too much rampant, the Lord incarnated Himself as Buddha and decried the authority of the Vedas in order to stop animal sacrifice in the name of religion. This was foreseen by Narada, and therefore he condemned such literatures. The flesh-eaters still continue to perform animal sacrifice before some demigod or goddess in the name of religion because in some of the Vedic literatures such regulated sacrifices are recommended. They are so recommended to discourage flesh-eating, but gradually the purpose of such religious activities is forgotten, and the slaughterhouse becomes prominent. This is because foolish materialistic men do not care to listen to others who are actually in a position to explain the Vedic rites. In the Vedas it is distinctly said that the perfection of life is never to be attained either by voluminous work, or by accumulation of wealth or even by increasing the population. But it is so attained only by renunciation. The materialistic men do not care to listen to such injunctions. According to them, the so-called renounced order of life is meant for those who are unable to earn their livelihood because of some corporeal defects, or for persons who have failed to achieve prosperity in family life. In histories like the Mahabharata, of course, there are topics on transcendental subjects along with material topics. The Bhagavad-gita is there in the Mahabharata. The whole idea of the Mahabharata culminates in the ultimate instructions of the Bhagavad-gita, that one should relinquish all other engagements and should engage oneself solely and fully in surrendering unto the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krsna. But men with materialistic tendencies are more attracted to the politics, economics and philanthropic activities mentioned in the Mahabharata than to the principal topic, namely the Bhagavad-gita. This compromising spirit of Vyasadeva is directly condemned by Narada, who advises him to directly proclaim that the prime necessity of human life is to realize one's eternal relation with the Lord and thus surrender unto Him without delay. A patient suffering from a particular type of malady is almost always inclined to accept eatables which are forbidden for him. The expert physician does not make any compromise with the patient by allowing him to take partially what he should not at all take. In the Bhagavad-gita it is also said that a man attached to fruitive work should not be discouraged from his occupation, for gradually he may be elevated to the position of self-realization. This is sometimes applicable for those who are only dry empiric philosophers without spiritual realization. But those who are in the devotional line need not be always so advised. The next point I wish to cover is the position of Lord Siva as revealed by Srila Vyasadeva in Srimad Bhagvatam. All taken from Canto 4. Chapter 2 TEXT 27 tasyaivam vadatah sapam srutva dvija-kulaya vai bhrguh pratyasrjac chapam brahma-dandam duratyayam TRANSLATION When all the hereditary brahmanas were thus cursed by Nandisvara, the sage Bhrgu, as a reaction, condemned the followers of Lord Siva with this very strong brahminical curse. TEXT 28 bhava-vrata-dhara ye ca ye ca tan samanuvratah pasandinas te bhavantu sac-chastra-paripanthinah TRANSLATION One who takes a vow to satisfy Lord Siva or who follows such principles will certainly become an atheist and be diverted from transcendental scriptural injunctions. PURPORT It is sometimes seen that devotees of Lord Siva imitate the characteristics of Lord Siva. For example, Lord Siva drank an ocean of poison, so some of the followers of Lord Siva imitate him and try to take intoxicants like ganja (marijuana). Here the curse is that if someone follows such principles he must become an infidel and turn against the principles of Vedic regulation. It is said that such devotees of Lord Siva will be sacchastra-paripanthinah, which means "opposed to the conclusion of sastra, or scripture." This is confirmed in the Padma Purana also. Lord Siva was ordered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead to preach the impersonal, or Mayavada, philosophy for a particular purpose, just as Lord Buddha preached the philosophy of voidness for particular purposes mentioned in the sastras. Sometimes it is necessary to preach a philosophical doctrine which is against the Vedic conclusion. ln the Siva Purana it is stated that Lord Siva said to Parvati that in the Kali-yuga, in the body of a brahmana, he would preach the Mayavada philosophy. Thus it is generally found that the worshipers of Lord Siva are Mayavadi followers. Lord Siva himself says, mayavadam asac-chastram. Asat-sastra, as explained here, means the doctrine of Mayavada impersonalism, or becoming one with the Supreme. Bhrgu Muni cursed that persons who worshiped Lord Siva would become followers of this Mayavada asat-sastra, which attempts to establish that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is impersonal. Besides that, among the worshipers of Lord Siva there is a section who live a devilish life. Srimad-Bhagavatam and Narada-pancaratra are authorized scriptures that are considered sat-sastra, or scriptures which lead one to the path of God realization. Asat-sastras are just the opposite. Chapter 3 TEXT 3 istva sa vajapeyena brahmisthan abhibhuya ca brhaspati-savam nama samarebhe kratuttamam TRANSLATION Daksa began a sacrifice named vajapeya, and he became excessively confident of his support by Lord Brahma, He then performed another great sacrifice, named brhaspati-sava. PURPORT In the Vedas it is prescribed that before performing a brhaspati-sava sacrifice, one should perform the sacrifice named vajapeya. While performing these sacrifices, however, Daksa neglected great devotees like Lord Siva. According to Vedic scriptures, the demigods are eligible to participate in yajnas and share the oblations, but Daksa wanted to avoid them. All sacrifices are intended to pacify Lord Visnu, but Lord Visnu includes all His devotees. Brahma, Lord Siva and the other demigods are all obedient servants of Lord Visnu; therefore Lord Visnu is never satisfied without them. But Daksa, being puffed up with his power, wanted to deprive Lord Brahma and Lord Siva of participation in the sacrifice, understanding that if one satisfies Visnu, it is not necessary to satisfy His followers. But that is not the process. Visnu wants His followers to be satisfied first. Lord Krsna says, mad-bhakta-pujabhyadhika: "The worship of My devotees is better than worship of Me." Similarly, in the Siva Purana, it is stated that the best mode of worship is to offer oblations to Visnu, but better than that is to worship the devotees of Krsna. Thus Daksa's determination to neglect Lord Siva in the sacrifices was not fitting. Chapter 4 TEXT 14 yad dvy-aksaram nama gireritam nrnam sakrt prasangad agham asu hanti tat pavitra-kirtim tam alanghya-sasanam bhavan aho dvesti sivam sivetarah TRANSLATION Sati continued: My dear father, you are committing the greatest offense by envying Lord Siva, whose very name, consisting of two syllables, si and va, purifies one of all sinful activities. His order is never neglected. Lord Siva is always pure, and no one but you envies him. PURPORT Since Lord Siva is the greatest soul among the living entities within this material world, his name, Siva, is very auspicious for persons who identify the body with the soul. If such persons take shelter of Lord Siva, gradually they will understand that they are not the material body but are spirit soul. Siva means mangala, or auspicious. Within the body the soul is auspicious. Aham brahmasmi: "I am Brahman." This realization is auspicious. As long as one does not realize his identity as the soul, whatever he does is inauspicious. Siva means "auspicious," and devotees of Lord Siva gradually come to the platform of spiritual identification, but that is not all. Auspicious life begins from the point of spiritual identification. But there are still more duties--one has to understand one's relationship with the Supreme Soul. If one is actually a devotee of Lord Siva, he comes to the platform of spiritual realization, but if he is not intelligent enough, then he stops at that point, only realizing that he is spirit soul (aham brahmasmi). If he is intelligent enough, however, he should continue to act in the way of Lord Siva, for Lord Siva is always absorbed in the thought of Vasudeva. As previously explained, sattvam visuddham vasudeva-sabditam: Lord Siva is always in meditation on the lotus feet of Vasudeva, Sri Krsna. Thus the auspicious position of Lord Siva is realized if one takes to the worship of Visnu, because Lord Siva says in the Siva Purana that the topmost worship is worship of Lord Visnu. Lord Siva is worshiped because he is the greatest devotee of Lord Visnu. One should not, however, make the mistake of considering Lord Siva and Lord Visnu to be on the same level. That is also an atheistic idea. It is also enjoined in the Vaisnaviya Purana that Visnu, or Narayana, is the exalted Supreme Personality of Godhead, and no one should be compared to Him as equal, even Lord Siva or Lord Brahma, not to speak of other demigods. Chapter 6 TEXT 40 sa tupalabhyagatam atma-yonim surasuresair abhivanditanghrih utthaya cakre sirasabhivandanam arhattamah kasya yathaiva visnuh TRANSLATION Lord Siva's lotus feet were worshiped by both the demigods and demons, but still, in spite of his exalted position, as soon as he saw that Lord Brahma was there among all the other demigods, he immediately stood up and offered him respect by bowing down and touching his lotus feet, just as Vamanadeva offered His respectful obeisances to Kasyapa Muni. PURPORT Kasyapa Muni was in the category of the living entities, but he had a transcendental son, Vamanadeva, who was an incarnation of Visnu. Thus although Lord Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He offered His respects to Kasyapa Muni. Similarly, when Lord Krsna was a child He used to offer His respectful obeisances to His mother and father, Nanda and Yasoda. Also, at the Battle of Kuruksetra, Lord Krsna touched the feet of Maharaja Yudhisthira because the King was His elder. It appears, then, that the Personality of Godhead, Lord Siva and other devotees, in spite of their being situated in exalted positions, instructed by practical example how to offer obeisances to their superiors. Lord Siva offered his respectful obeisances to Brahma because Brahma was his father, just as Kasyapa Muni was the father of Vamana. Chapter 24 TEXT 30 atha bhagavata yuyam priyah stha bhagavan yatha na mad bhagavatanam ca preyan anyo 'sti karhicit TRANSLATION You are all devotees of the Lord, and as such I appreciate that you are as respectable as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. I know in this way that the devotees also respect me and that I am dear to them. Thus no one can be as dear to the devotees as I am. PURPORT It is said, vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh: Lord Siva is the best of all devotees. Therefore all devotees of Lord Krsna are also devotees of Lord Siva. In Vrndavana there is Lord Siva's temple called Gopisvara. The gopis used to worship not only Lord Siva but Katyayani, or Durga, as well, but their aim was to attain the favor of Lord Krsna. A devotee of Lord Krsna does not disrespect Lord Siva, but worships Lord Siva as the most exalted devotee of Lord Krsna. Consequently whenever a devotee worships Lord Siva, he prays to Lord Siva to achieve the favor of Krsna, and he does not request material profit. In Bhagavad-gita (7.20) it is said that generally people worship demigods for some material profit. Kamais tais tair hrta jnanah. Driven by material lust, they worship demigods, but a devotee never does so, for he is never driven by material lust. That is the difference between a devotee's respect for Lord Siva and an asura's respect for him. The asura worships Lord Siva, takes some benediction from him, misuses the benediction and ultimately is killed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who awards him liberation. Because Lord Siva is a great devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he loves all the devotees of the Supreme Lord. Lord Siva told the Pracetas that because they were devotees of the Lord, he loved them very much. Lord Siva was not kind and merciful only to the Pracetas; anyone who is a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very dear to Lord Siva. Not only are the devotees dear to Lord Siva, but he respects them as much as he respects the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Similarly, devotees of the Supreme Lord also worship Lord Siva as the most dear devotee of Lord Krsna. They do not worship him as a separate Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the list of nama-aparadhas that it is an offense to think that the chanting of the name of Hari and the chanting of Hara, or Siva, are the same. The devotees must always know that Lord Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and that Lord Siva is His devotee. A devotee should be offered respect on the level of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and sometimes even more respect. Indeed, Lord Rama, the Personality of Godhead Himself, sometimes worshiped Lord Siva. If a devotee is worshiped by the Lord, why should a devotee not be worshiped by other devotees on the same level with the Lord? This is the conclusion. From this verse it appears that Lord Siva blesses the asuras simply for the sake of formality. Actually he loves one who is devoted to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For me this answers questions of previous puranas claiming that Vishnu worshipped Shiva. Srimad Bhagvatam’s whole message is about how Lord Krishna is more pleased when you worship His pure unalloyed devotee rather than Himself. Not that you should worship his pure devotees for materialism. Then it is considered demigod worship. Also for the blessed list members and fallen me I would like to attach Lord Siva’s prayer from Srimad Bhagvatam taken from 4th Canto Text 33-68 Lord Siva states that: A devotee who rises early in the morning and with folded hands chants these prayers sung by Lord Siva and gives facility to others to hear them certainly becomes free from all bondage to fruitive activities. I have taken out the super beautiful purports of Srila Prabhupada (for brevity) just to leave you with the sankrit and English translation. I really hope we can all (as a list) try to please Lord Siva and Lord Vishnu and the pure devotees. Warmest wishes Kasim MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. Attachment: (application/msword) Lord Shiva's prayer.doc [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Dear Kasim, > Then Narada Muni said, "Actually you are a cheater. You have > cheated the people of the world and you have done a very > wrong thing."> > I quoted this from the following website http://www.gosai.com/krishna-talk/how-great-prabhupada.html> > I hang my head in utter shame, humiliation and embarrassment > for doing so. As it is the commentary of someone else and not > of Srila Prabhupada. > So I went away in personal disgrace to enquire from the beautiful > Srimad Bhagvatam that Srila Prabhupada has given the whole world. There is no need to hang your head in shame. Everybody makes mistakes. Don't be embarrassed. I questioned you because I did not find any word close to "cheater" in the original text when I saw the original Sanskrit text. I am glad to see that the translation given by Srila Prabhupada (as quoted by you) does not refer to Vyasa as a cheater. It is indeed beautiful. It was a very interesting and useful discussion and thank you for your contribution! May god give you more wisdom and knowledge, so that we all can benefit from it. Take care, Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Dear Narashimha, You are a great soul. And a gentleman at that. I must thank you for inspiring me to approach and spend time with Srimad Bhagvatam. Although we respectfully agree to disagree overall I hope we can both see the divine in each other. My bestest wishes Kasim vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@c...> wrote: > Dear Kasim, > > > Then Narada Muni said, "Actually you are a cheater. You have > > cheated the people of the world and you have done a very > > wrong thing." > > > > I quoted this from the following website http://www.gosai.com/krishna-talk/how-great-prabhupada.html > > > > I hang my head in utter shame, humiliation and embarrassment > > for doing so. As it is the commentary of someone else and not > > of Srila Prabhupada. > > > So I went away in personal disgrace to enquire from the beautiful > > Srimad Bhagvatam that Srila Prabhupada has given the whole world. > > There is no need to hang your head in shame. Everybody makes mistakes. Don't be embarrassed. > > I questioned you because I did not find any word close to "cheater" in the original text when I saw the original Sanskrit text. > > I am glad to see that the translation given by Srila Prabhupada (as quoted by you) does not refer to Vyasa as a cheater. It is indeed beautiful. > > It was a very interesting and useful discussion and thank you for your contribution! May god give you more wisdom and knowledge, so that we all can benefit from it. > > Take care, > Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Dear Narasimha Thanks for for helping to understand the truth and your balanced views. The Rig veda said 'Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti'. The same truth is amplified later on in the Upanishads. The same thing is emphasized in the Bhagavad Gita also. However these great works and the thinkers that followed in these footsteps recognized the limitations of the average human mind and its emotional needs, so various texts and methods were propounded to suit the different tastes and needs of the people. There are different paths to reach the same ultimate goal and every path has its merits. One's call to follow any path depends on his inclinations and taste. When we compare one with another, contradictions arise. Remember, HE is beyond our limits to comprehend so different perceptions arise naturally. We are sometimes stuck with symbols and images and try to prove which is higher or lower but never go deep into the meanings of purana or other texts. "I have realized the great Purusha, who is effulgent and beyond darkness. Knowing this truth alone can one escape from the jaws of death, there is no other way" (Sveta.Upanishad) To know the truth wisdom is required, God gives the wisdom to those who earnestly desire to know the truth. "The self existent lord created the outgoing senses therefore one sees the outer things with them and not the inner Self. A rare, discriminating man, desiring immortality turns his eyes away and then sees the indwelling Self." (Kathopanishad) "O Cudakesha, I am the Self residing in the hearts of all beings"(B Gita) "This Self is truly imperishable" (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad) HE is the sweetness that is to be experienced(Raso vai sah) not to be experimented. If we are unable to experience the taste, because we are sick then the sickness is the "I" within us. The same sweetness is in all different forms and shapes of sweets. The sweetness cannot be explained, it is understood only by tasting. What the moon is like must be seen with one's own eyes. How can others do it for you? God is infinite. How can we divide the infinite? By saying one is better than the other we are fooling ourselves. A same person can be a father, brother, son etc. The person is the same, so all the compliments and abuses to one aspect reaches the same person. It's inseparable like the moon and moonlight. Never be contaminated with notions of me or mine. Instead of saying God is mine, say I belong to God. Let the divine love remove the hatred and distinctions. Transcending all differences and ego takes us to the path of true knowledge. Try to see the truth shown in the light of the lamp rather than experimenting with the lamp itself. Let the Madhu (Raaga) and Kaitabha (Dwesha) not allow fighting with our Self, the chetana of Nara, the antaryamin. Let the Ra (the light) in Ma (me) destroy the Ravana (ahamkar). God is the All-Seer who generates, permeates, sustains and destroys the universe. He is Siva, He is Vishnu, He is Brahman etc. He is the One whom the different sects call their own. Just as waves, foam, whirlpool and bubbles are all in reality just water. It's my humble view, pardon me if i am wrong Lokah Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu Om Shanti Shanti Shanti thridesh vedic astrology, "Kasim" <kasim_c@h...> wrote: > Dear Narashimha, > > You are a great soul. And a gentleman at that. > > I must thank you for inspiring me to approach and spend time with > Srimad Bhagvatam. > > Although we respectfully agree to disagree overall I hope we can both > see the divine in each other. > > My bestest wishes > > Kasim > > > vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" > <pvr@c...> wrote: > > Dear Kasim, > > > > > Then Narada Muni said, "Actually you are a cheater. You have > > > cheated the people of the world and you have done a very > > > wrong thing." > > > > > > I quoted this from the following website > http://www.gosai.com/krishna-talk/how-great-prabhupada.html > > > > > > I hang my head in utter shame, humiliation and embarrassment > > > for doing so. As it is the commentary of someone else and not > > > of Srila Prabhupada. > > > > > So I went away in personal disgrace to enquire from the beautiful > > > Srimad Bhagvatam that Srila Prabhupada has given the whole world. > > > > There is no need to hang your head in shame. Everybody makes > mistakes. Don't be embarrassed. > > > > I questioned you because I did not find any word close to "cheater" > in the original text when I saw the original Sanskrit text. > > > > I am glad to see that the translation given by Srila Prabhupada (as > quoted by you) does not refer to Vyasa as a cheater. It is indeed > beautiful. > > > > It was a very interesting and useful discussion and thank you for > your contribution! May god give you more wisdom and knowledge, so > that we all can benefit from it. > > > > Take care, > > Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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