Subject: 20th mumbai meeting discussions

June 2, 2003

Dear Sanjayji, To my limited knowledge, Chara karaka, Sthira karaka and

Naisargika karakaare used by the Sages to distinguish between the Swabhava of

Native(jataka),Bhavas and Planets. This indicates their knowledge of principle

ofrelativity, when applied to a Horoscope. Chara Karaka indicates basic nature

of the Jataka, his strengths andweaknesses. Sthira Karaka indicates influence

over a Bhava of the planet andNatural Karaka influence of the Bhava over the

planet all of theseinteracting with each other to show the path of prediction.

The reason that Parashara mentioned 7 and 8 planets as also the scheme ofgiving

position to Rahu in different method is the same for which, you didnot brush

away 7 Karaka scheme. The truly knowledgeable understand thatknowledge is

unlimited and never brush away opinion of others equallyknowledgeable,even

though at variance with their own, and give it duerespect, as long as there is

sound logic behind those opinions. This hasbeen Vaidika samskriti from aeons

and even Rishi Charvaka who said "RiNamkrutva ghritam pibet" and propogated

nashwaravaada was never hounded and wasaccorded the respect due to a

Dhnyani.This is why many a times Parasharaalso gives what is the opinion of

narada, Garga, Kashyapa etc., after givinghis own interpretation about a

specific principle of astrology. The trulyknowledgeable knows that quest of

knowledge is never ending. And that everyone, who is a true seeker at,tempts to

reach it by different path. Havingrecognized this they want the seekers that

come after them to have allknowledge available so that further knowledge is

gained and tested on theanvil of Satya through every seeker's personal

experience. I have too little knowledge about what is atma as compared to the

rest onthe list. My understanding of the Atman is One who is

indestructible,unsullied,neitheraffected by Arms,wind, fire or water. Atman

resides in the body withoutgetting attached to it. It has neither fondness nor

hatred towards anybody.It does not get pleased by anybody that praises him nor

is angry with anybody that abuses it. It is amsha of the Parmatman. The Lord

has said"AjaeinTy> zaZvtae=y< pura[ae. n hNyTye hNymane zrIre.20. About the

tripod, I agree that Atma Mana and Sharira form the basic tripodfor leading one

to Dhnyana. However with reference to the Jyotish and jatakaI have always looked

at Dharma, Buddhi and Bhagya as the tripod on whichthe Horoscope rests. If you

feel that I am crossing my limits, kindly tell me. I am merely tryingto put my

view and understanding across, in search of truth. I am notdisputing anybody's

knowledge. With warm regards, Chandrashekhar. ----

vedic astrology Monday, June 02, 2003 01:44:02 PM

vedic astrology RE: [vedic astrology] Re: 20th

mumbai meeting discussions - to Mr.Amol |brihaspatim varenyam| Dear

Chandrasekharji, Can you tell me as to why then do we need a chara karaka

scheme at all? Chapter 32 shloka 8,10,11 and 12 clearly indicate the

pre-eminence of the Atmakaraka (and here the reference is to the chara

atmakaraka and not the naisargika atmakaraka). The pre-eminence is to the chara

atmakraka. Why are there 3 schemes of Chara, Sthira and Naisargika atmakaraka?

Think in terms of the tripod of life. Do you have another explanation? Why does

a sage of the level of Parasara say that both 7 and 8 chara karaka schemes are

used? If he wanted he could have simply dismissed whichever was incorrect,

knowing well that his words would be obeyed without question even five thousand

years later by people like me. To find the ONLY plausible explanation, please

read my articles presented at ACVA which are now in the web http://srath.com

Someone can give exact links. I have also quoted the Gita therein to show the

relevance of the words of Parasara. If I wanted to dismiss the 7 chara karaka

scheme as totally bogus, I could have done that long time back, and got some

*cheap popularity* for dismissing K N Rao. But that would not be right as when

Parasara says both are used, then that is the TRUTH. So, after knowing the

difference between the three karaka schemes, we should also know what is the

difference between the 7 and 8 chara karaka scheme. As promised, I will give

the final proof of the 8 cara karaka scheme in the West Coast conference this

year. Finally, what is the Atma? What is Sva? I have been taught to think in

terms of the tripod of life - Soul, Mind and Body. If you have further inputs,

please give. ~ om tat sat ~ Yours truly, Sanjay Rath

--------------------------- H-5, B.J.B Nagar,

Bhubaneswar 751014, India +91-674-2436871 http://srath.com

--------------------------- -----Original

Message----- Chandrashekhar Sharma [boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk] Sent:

Monday, June 02, 2003 1:26 AM vedic astrology RE:

[vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai meeting discussions - to Mr. Amol Dear

Sanjayji, In continuation of my earlier mail,in BPHS too Chapter 32 shloka

8,10,11 and 12 tell about the Importance f Atmakaraka. Parashara tells

maitreyi" O Brahmana, as the minister cannot go against the king, the other

karakas viz. putrakaraka, amatyakaraka etc. can not predominate over atmakaraka

in the affairs of native. If the atmakaraka is adverse, other karakas cannot

give their benefic effects(fully). Similarly if Atmakaraka is favourable, other

karaka's malefic effects cannot predominate over his." No where is there is a

suggestion of equating Atmakaraka with Atma( whether as Jeevaatma or Atman per

se). On the other hand, as in the case of naisargika Atmakaraka, his

pre-eminence as King is reiterated here. Kindly enlighten. With warm regards,

Chandrashekhar. ----

vedic astrology Sunday, June 01, 2003 04:53:05 PM To:

vedic astrology RE: [vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai

meeting discussions - to Mr. Amol Dear sanjayji, Thank you for an illuminating

discourse on Atmakaraka and Aatma. I think I was not able to convey my meaning.

I was referring to atma as in parmatman. My other mail to Amol is about this. My

proposition is that atmakaraka can lead one to renunciation or final bliss

depending on yogas formed by various factors but is not atma itself, as far as

Jyotish is concerned. I was also trying to tell that merely because atmakaraka

is a malefic planet, one does not necerssarily have a yoga for Moksha or become

a Deeksha Guru, as was being implied. Even otherwise, there are two streams of

thoughts amongst acharyas as to whether there are 7 or 8 Charakarakas.

"AaTmaidk> klaidi_anR _aaeg> sPtanam:qana~va . Again some opine that Rahu

replaces the blank space left when two plabnets get same chara Karakatva,

whereas some go by the order of higher or lesser degrees. Again I wanted to

convey that mere one planet being Atmakaraka by itself does not mean great

renunciates, as the strengths of its house vargas etc. should be considered.

There was also a thread going on that Malefics only can grant the emancipation,

and this is why I said that one should not equate Atmakaraka with Atman. Again

in Shrila Prabhupada's chart Atmakaraka is in Libranavamsha. for which

Adhayaaya 1 Pada 2 sutra 12 says " la_aevai{aJym! ". whereas sutra 69 says "

ketaE kEvLym! ". This would indicate that benefics joining the Karakamsha would

give final emancipation, the goal of all pious men. Therefore what I was trying

to emphasis was that mere presence of one planet as Atmakaraka in one

particular Karakamsha does not mean an elevated one spiritually. If I am wrong

kindly correct me. With warm regards, Chandrashekhar. -------Original

Message------- vedic astrology Sunday, June 01,

2003 10:19:10 AM vedic astrology RE:

[vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai meeting discussions - to Mr. Amol

|brihaspatim varenyam| Dear Chandrasekharji No it is not so. The Atma is like

the Sun but it is not the Sun that is why the Sun is the naisargika Atmakaraka

and for all purposes shall represent the native (self), Father (through whom

the atma comes) as well as the ultimate father (Vishnu)...among Aditya's I am

Vishnu extolls Sri Krishna in the Gita. This is its nature i.e. the nature of

the atman is like that of pure light, a spark is what the rishi's say. Chara

atmakaraka is the representation of the jivatma or what we call the individual

atman. This is also of the nature of pure light and the color of the light

shall be one of the colors of the visible spectrum (7) or darkness (1) and that

is why there are eight chara atmakaraka for animate beings. Imagine there is a

room where two lamps are burning - one of pure white light and the other is say

red. The brighter the red light is, to that extent the white light is suppressed

or ignored. The jivatma is like that red (or some color) light that tends to

*bask in the glory* of its own light and this is ahamkara. The brighter the

light of the individual atma, the lower shall be its focus on the other pure

light in the room. Thus, Rahu does not have any original light as a chara

karaka and is darkness, so such a jivatma is always looking at the pure light

of the paramatma. Now coming to the point about karakamsa, interaction between

the atman (jiva) and the prakriti can only be through the laws of dharma. The

Jiva having evolved from Brahma, is pramarily of Rajas guna and has a lot of

desire as Rajas guna is associated with desire. No individual jivaatman, no

matter how spiritually evolved it maybe, can claim to be Vishnu (paramatma)

because of this. The interaction of such an atma represented by the Atmakaraka

with nature is seen in the signs and divisions it is placed in. We all know the

basic result of such an interaction between two entities, where one is of Rajas

predominantly, shall always be painful. the pain is not due to the nature of

the signs etc but is due to the interaction of the AK with the sign while being

in Rajas guna. Had the guna of the atma changed through severe tapasya or

blessings, then the interaction becomes very beneficial for both the jiva and

nature. Lets say it was the jivatma of Parasara muni, then it has evolved from

the Rajas guna displayed in childhood when Parasara wanted to kill all the

Rakshasa who killed his father to pure satva when he forgave them due to the

blessings of his grandfather Sri Vasistha. To the point about many people with

AK Rahu not being spiritual - About one-eighth portion of the world population

shall have rahu as AK, so this factor alone cannot determine the factum of the

native being spiritual. Spirituality is at many levels and each level has to be

examined from the concerned factors in the chart. Take the same case of Sri

Prabhupada. Here the AK is Rahu, but such a Rahu is (a) well placed in Aquarius

having sthana bala - atma bala is there (b) related to Upapada - renunciation of

spouse will be the key to renunciation and so many other factors. Next is the

physical manifestation. For this look at the Arudha Lagna. Here Mercury and

venus determine strong spiritual inclinations being in the 6th from AL. So, the

physical manifestation will be in the worship of Krishna (Mercury exalted) and

Radha (Venus debilitated with neechabhanga..very crucial). Let us take another

chart. Say Sri Caitanya mahaprabhu. Here AK is Saturn. So can we say that Sri

Caitanya was less spiritual than Prabhupada?!! Definitely not. Here the theme

is "taking sorrow - giving joy". Here the AK Saturn is (a) not very well placed

in Scorpio but is in a Kendra and (b) Not directly linked to the main Arudhas.

So can we say Sri Caitanya was less spiritual? What are we missing out? Look at

the karakamsa and see the merger of the AK and Ista...you will find this in the

chart of Sri Krishna as well. There the AK is Sun in Leo. There is a lot lot

more to this thread, but for all practical purposes, the AK is the

representative of the individual Jivatma in a chart as the Ista (paramatma)

shall also be represented by another planet. It is a difficult job, but then

Jyotish is all about understanding these symbols. ~ om tat sat ~ Yours truly,

Sanjay Rath --------------------------- H-5,

B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India +91-674-2436871 http://srath.com

--------------------------- -----Original

Message----- Chandrashekhar Sharma [boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk] Sent:

Saturday, May 31, 2003 1:18 AM vedic astrology Re:

[vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai meeting discussions - to Mr. Amol Dear Sunil,

Amol mandar and Tanveer, If I may intervene, I think Atmakaraka is just that,

Chara karaka for Atma, as Sun is Natural Atmakaraka. This position is obtained

by a graha by having the highest number of degrees pased in a Rasi. Its results

are to be seen wrt Navamsha position( Karakamsha). Some confusion arises when we

try to associate it with Atman, which is something else. Otherwose why would

Jaimini Sutras-Adhyaaya1 Pada3(Beginning of the results Karakamsha start with

various physical(Mostly) ailments or dangers faced by the Jataka? No dount

astrologers try to attribute Atman to Atmakaraka, but I think this is probably

not the right approach. Chandrashekhar. ----

vedic astrology Friday, May 30, 2003 10:23:01 PM To:

vedic astrology [vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai

meeting discussions - to Mr. Amol Dear Amol, I shouldnt be answering your

question since it requires very high spiritual astrological knowledge as your

question is very imp, also I am just a beginner. Mr Tanvir answered it to u and

let me also try to attempt to answer it so that i can be corrected in the

process of my understanding/misunderstanding. As I understand from personal

experience the teachings of AK need not be painful. the AK planet has a goal in

a way, like for Sun one has to be humble and let go of ego, for Ven it is to let

go of lust - my words might not be apt so dont take me as verbatim. U can refer

to Sanjayji's article on AK for diff planets. Now the goal or desire of the AK

planet is higher learning for the physical to understand the soul purpose, this

can be much debated I feel as different systems have diff understandings. the

physical need not be as some say in tune with the souls higher purpose hence we

have karma, lessons or whatever one calls them to reach the purpose of the soul.

If one doesnt master, realise the purpose of the AK planet / soul then

sufferings can happen. They say that AK planet will give results in dasa and

antar dasa, this is what i understand. Now my AK is Sun, and my Sun is exalted.

Yrs back this dasa came and was the best dasa for me in terms of fame and

acheivements, also during the start of this dasa if i remember correctly I

started learning martial arts under an able master who first taught us to be

humble and never to feel superior of our knowledge. It was daily ingrained in

me so much and that me and my colleagues understood the meaning of it and we

were always humble, it became like second skin. The dasa was very good apart

from a few mishaps which always happens in ones life. Last year the antar was

there of Sun and I was forced to be egoistic (wonder if anyone is forced )and

thereby lost some close friends and business opportunity, which shows that I

totally havent mastered humbleness. so round this off, if one learns the lesson

of the AK planet before hand , one masters it truly then I feel there should be

no pain, since at the end of the day every planet is here to teach us something

that we havent realised. Hope this helps and i stand to be corrected in my

thinking in a nice manner )) Best wishes, Sunil John --- In

vedic astrology, "amolmandar" <amolmandar> wrote: > Dear

Dasguptaji and Other Gurus > > Please excuse me for this silly and unwanted

interruption. I have a > doubt regarding AK. > > You have mentioned here that

"teachings by AK will be very very > painfull." If AK is AtmaKarak,how can it

create pains. It is supposed > to elevate the person on Atamic level,Spiritual

level. So if at all > teaching by AK is destined,should it not be on spiritual

level? > > Thanks a lot for your Time and Space. > > AmolMandar > > > >

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June 3, 2003

Dear Sanjayji,

Thank you for your patience. I am still of the opinion that the word Karaka

means significator and not Atman. That is why Chara Karaka, Nasargika Karaka

and Yoga Karaka are the terms used by Maharshi Parashara.

In the first instance. Saturn being Atmakaraka Lively-hood due to native's

family is indicated says parashara. However, the person is more likely to

turn to spiritualism as Saturn also gives deep philosophical and analytical

thinking. Of course much would depend in Natal house tenanted as well as

Karakamsha occupied by Saturn and the Ascendant(Apex of Dharma Trikona)

Lord.for the reasons I have already put forward i.e. these are interacting.

Sun would always remain as naisargik Karaka so his position in natal

chart and strength as well as house tenanted and ownership of specific bhava

would decide what the results would be for a native. Jaimini also says

"Prasiddhakarma JeevaH Shanau". He is also likely to put himself to trouble on

account of others and would rarely give troubles to others. Mars as Atmakaraka

on the other hand could either steer one to Medicines , preparations dependent

on fire or Arms and would also make him like visual manifestations of whatever

he belives in (Dambha).

I do not mean that Naisargika karaka does not influence bhava, I mean

House ownership of Naisargika karaka and his own placement in house, and its

relation with ascendant would decide the results that he would give. I agree

with you entirely with you that planets and bhavas affect each other. I have

actually said that the sages understood relative effects.

About scheme of 7 or 8 atmakarakas. I was not, talking about the number

of Karrakas but about the number of planets to be considered for Chara Karaka

ownership. Parashara himself indicates that he favours 7 planet scheme in

Adhyaaya32 shloka 1 line 2 when he says"saptaravyaadishanyantaan rvhntaan vaa

STsaMkhyakaan." or at least this is how R. Santanam has translated the shloka.

He also indicates that according to some Rahu replaces next in order when there

is degree similarity between two planets thus making both Karaka of a particular

bhava and further says that some say that Rahu be considered irrespective of

such a state. He then ,quite logically goes on to explain that when degrees are

equal one should go on to minutes and when they are so then to seconds. He also

gives the terms Antyakaraka, Madhya Karaka and Upkheta as the terms for these

variations.He also states that Atmakaraka has principal say in matters of

Native(Jataka).

I think my lack of communication skills made you think that I am disputing

wisdom of Parashara. I do not to the view that one or other scheme

narrated is wrong. I think one should try them out in horoscopes and decide for

oneself which he has been able to decipher better. About whether to use 7 or 8

charakarakas, I think if K.N. Rao says one or other is wrong he has ,may be,

his own logic. I am unable to see logic behind this, The reason is that if

three or more planets merge in to one karakatwa, what is to be done for the

rest karaka bhavas according to him would be interesting to know. The sages say

that in such cases the naisargik Karkas are to be used in vacant places. So

obviously 8 Karaka ownerships would remain, whether 7 or 8 planets are used. Or

at least this is what my Viveka tells me. I rather think that becoming one

charakaraka or other does not deprive any planet of his naisargika karakatwa

and planets are given karakatwas of all 12 bhavas.

Having said that where I differ from others is that, I think the Sage has

clearly indicated that the Charakarakas results for a native are to be

deciphered from their position in navamsha occupied by them and relative

position from karakamsha of other planets wrt Karakamsha, whereas what I find

is that Charakaraktwa is being applied to Natal chart. Either my knowledge is

defficient or I have not come accross any such reference during the course of

my studies.

My own view of interpreting atma of Kalapurusha with reference to Jyotish is

to take the term to mean the Atmbala of the Jataka, this at least for me is

different and distinct from Atman,which is in every living being..The reson for

this thinking is that Sun is said to be atma of Kalapurusha(Sarvatmaa ca

divaanatho), Moon the Mana and so on while describing various organs of the

Kalapurusha. Had that Atman, Sun would not have been attributed rulership over

father and Ketu over Moksha. Sun would also not have been classified as Krura

Graha being Naisargika Atmakaraka. Even according to mythology Sun got the

sunholes when he went to see his Son Saturn, his sarathi got paralysed and

Horses became blind. This therefore could not be the atman within the Jevatma

described by the Lord when he says" Nainan Chndanti shastraaNi, nainan dahati

paavaka...". Atman on the other hand is without attachment so how could karaka

for atma( if it also means Atman) be given the status of Royalty together with

Moon who gets other Royal status. Royalty indicates wish of aquiring by faith.

At least this is the way I see things. I could be wrong.

Again Chara Atmakaraka in Pisces Karakamsha indicates final emancipation and

so if the Lord of Pisces, Jupiter is the Atman there is definitely logic to it.

Jupiter or Guru indicates awastha of Ataman in true sense. A Guru (or the

Gurutatva within the teacher)is neither unhappy nor happy by failures or

achievements of shishya and is a true yogi as defined by the Lord in answer to

Arjuna's query "Sthitapradnyasya kaa bhaasha samadhistha Keshava..."This is the

reason I think that Atman and Atma of kalapurusha are two different entities.

However this my personal opinion.

My comments about tripod reffered to the Dharma Trikona which is the

foundation of horoscope and hence instead of reffering the apex as lagna I said

Dharma i.e the Ascendant, Bhagya the 9th house and Buddhi the 5th house. I

remember my father telling me that one must first analyze these three houses to

understand the psyche of a Jataka and understand his reaction under stress as

well as his concept of Dharma, if an astrologer really wants to help the

jataka. I am sorry my use of different synonym for Ascendant caused you to

dwell on it unnecessarily.

About differentiation of the Karma, I would look at dignities (whether

positive or negative) of Sun the Atmakaraka, Jupiter the Dnyanaadhipati and

Saturn the renunciate. I would also look at Karaka of Mana the Moon and Budha

the converter of perception to stored experience ( Buddhi). I would then give

a heavy weightage in favour of dignities of Jupiter and Saturn to arrive at the

progress of atma of a jataka on the path to moksha. As rightly said by you, the

planets and bhavas do not operate in isolation, and therefore this is the

approach I take. Others may have other approach.

I have visited the links provided by you and have gone throughthe exhaustive

material there. You are doing a wonderful job in presenting Jyotish in its

proper perspective. This has also given me a new direction and thought process

for interpretation of Bhagvadgita . I shall try to corelate what the Lird has

said to the Jyotish and if I find anything of interest from point of view of

Jyotish, I shall attempt to send it to you. I am not very good at sanskrita and

it takes me awhile to get all the nuances of what the Lord intends to convey. I

find new meaning to every shloka every time that I read the Divine shashtra.

I take this opportunity to thank you for your patience and paying me

compliments where none are due. At this stage of my life my only prayer to lord

is that I get to interact and learn from Panditas, the ultimate truth which is

at the feet of Mrutyunjaya.

With warm regards,

Chandrashekhar.

-

Sanjay Rath

vedic astrology

Tuesday, June 03, 2003 10:25 PM

RE: [vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai meeting discussions

|brihaspatim varenyam|

Dear Chandrasekharji

Namaste.

Did you go through the links? I am giving them again

http://srath.com/lesson/gita_extracts.htm

http://srath.com/lesson/atmakaraka.htm

Other comments below

~ om tat sat ~

Yours truly,

Sanjay Rath

---------------------------

H-5, B.J.B Nagar, Bhubaneswar 751014, India

+91-674-2436871 http://srath.com

---------------------------

Chandrashekhar [boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk]Sent:

Tuesday, June 03, 2003 1:43 AMvedic astrologySubject:

[vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai meeting discussions

Dear Sanjayji, To my limited knowledge, Chara karaka, Sthira karaka and

Naisargika karakaare used by the Sages to distinguish between the Swabhava of

Native(jataka),Bhavas and Planets. This indicates their knowledge of principle

ofrelativity, when applied to a Horoscope. [Rath:] Please elaborate. what is

the exact difference if say in a chart Saturn is chara AK and Sun is sthira and

natural AK.

Chara Karaka indicates basic nature of the Jataka, his strengths andweaknesses.

Sthira Karaka indicates influence over a Bhava of the planet andNatural Karaka

influence of the Bhava over the planet all of theseinteracting with each other

to show the path of prediction. [Rath:] Can you give an illustration as this is

getting a bit confusing. So if Rahu is the chara AK, what is the basic nature of

the Jataka? OK maybe Rahu does not feature in the scheme, so if Saturn is AK,

what is the basic nature of the Jataka? What will be the strength and weakness

of a person with say Mars as the AK? Shira karaka influences Bhava whereas

Naisargika karaka is influenced by Bhava - is that what you mean? Does this

also mean that the naisargika karaka cannot influence the bhava!! In fact this

would go against the fundamental rules of Argala where every planet influences

every bhava and vice versa.The reason that Parashara mentioned 7 and 8 planets

as also the scheme ofgiving position to Rahu in different method is the same

for which, you didnot brush away 7 Karaka scheme. The truly knowledgeable

understand thatknowledge is unlimited and never brush away opinion of others

equallyknowledgeable,even though at variance with their own, and give it

duerespect, as long as there is sound logic behind those opinions. [Rath:]

Thank you. The question is what is the logic behind the use of two chara AK

schemes other that for the purpose outlines by Krishna in the Gita? Do you have

any other purpose? If so kindly share them. To my knowledge K N Rao has been

saying that the 8 chara karaka scheme is wrong. He fails to explain the reason

for the specific statement that to derive the 7 chara karaka scheme, the

Matrikaraka and Putra karaka are merged. That means the 7 chara karaka scheme

does not have any putrakaraka. while the 8 chara karaka scheme has putraparaka.

Now see Sri Krishna's teaching -God (He) creates two types - "one are the lesser

creation while the other are the superior creation who enjoy the bounties of the

universe". That means there are 2 types of creation and the ones who enjoy the

bounties are naturally superior as stated. To this add the knowledge that there

are two chara karaka scheme. Now what do you get - One creation, the lessor

cannot procreate as they do not have Chara Putra karaka while the superior

beings can procreate as they have putra karaka. The difference is simple =

animate and inanimate world.

If you or anyone have any idea which is even remotely better than this to

explain the two chara karaka scheme, then I shall be obliged. All that the

astrologers have done till date is say 7 karaka is better as it vibes with 7

houses or others say 8 chara karaka scheme is better because of some original

research. Research is good, but it must be applying the basic models of Jyotish

and should not contradict the statements of the seers.

Has K N Rao or anyone said anything till now about Madhya kheta and antya kheta?

This hasbeen Vaidika samskriti from aeons and even Rishi Charvaka who said

"RiNamkrutva ghritam pibet" and propogated nashwaravaada was never hounded and

wasaccorded the respect due to a Dhnyani.This is why many a times Parasharaalso

gives what is the opinion of narada, Garga, Kashyapa etc., after givinghis own

interpretation about a specific principle of astrology. The trulyknowledgeable

knows that quest of knowledge is never ending. And that everyone, who is a true

seeker at,tempts to reach it by different path. Havingrecognized this they want

the seekers that come after them to have allknowledge available so that further

knowledge is gained and tested on theanvil of Satya through every seeker's

personal experience. I have too little knowledge about what is atma as compared

to the rest onthe list. [Rath:] No you have knowledge. Apply it Chandrasekhar

ji. That is what will benefit the world.

My understanding of the Atman is One who is

indestructible,unsullied,neitheraffected by Arms,wind, fire or water. Atman

resides in the body withoutgetting attached to it. It has neither fondness nor

hatred towards anybody.It does not get pleased by anybody that praises him nor

is angry with anybody that abuses it. It is amsha of the Parmatman. The Lord

has said"AjaeinTy> zaZvtae=y< pura[ae. n hNyTye hNymane zrIre.20. [Rath:] So

what represents the Atma in the kalapurusha and what represents the Jivatma in

the manushya? If Jyotish cannot answer this, then what is it trying to do -

predict house building and cars purchase. This is the real Jyotish. Jyotish is

all baout symbols and representations called significators, natural temporal

and fixed. So what is your view on this?

About the tripod, I agree that Atma Mana and Sharira form the basic tripodfor

leading one to Dhnyana. However with reference to the Jyotish and jatakaI have

always looked at Dharma, Buddhi and Bhagya as the tripod on whichthe Horoscope

rests. [Rath:] Tripod means three points of reference. Dharma and Bhagya are

both in the ninth house while Buddhi is the variable in lagna. what are the

Jyotish symbols for this? Are they not Lagna, Sun and Moon at the most basic

level to represent the Body, soul and Mind respectively.

Now the next intelligent question shall be - if the Sun represents the atma in

all charts then how do we differentiate between one chart and another in terms

of the sin/karma attached? Since the Sun is naisargika AK, it shows that all

jivatma are like the paramatma and are in fact a small or fractional

representation of the paramatma, and this is indicated by the Sun. But how do

we differentiate the karma of one individual with another? And if jyotish did

not have this answer, then why would it be a vedanga. Of course yogas etc are

there to show the karma but I am specifically talking about the symbolism

necessary to differentiate the jivatma from the paramatma. How would you do it

then?

If you feel that I am crossing my limits, kindly tell me. I am merely tryingto

put my view and understanding across, in search of truth. I am notdisputing

anybody's knowledge. With warm regards, Chandrashekhar. [Rath:] No you are

definitely not. This is a serious topic and sometimes we have to be blunt. You

are among the most decent people I have met (in the net). Its fine. Please go

through those links I have given above.

---- vedic astrology Date:

Monday, June 02, 2003 01:44:02 PM vedic astrology Subject:

RE: [vedic astrology] Re: 20th mumbai meeting discussions - to Mr.Amol

|brihaspatim varenyam| Dear Chandrasekharji, Can you tell me as to why then do

we need a chara karaka scheme at all? Chapter 32 shloka 8,10,11 and 12 clearly

indicate the pre-eminence of the Atmakaraka (and here the reference is to the

chara atmakaraka and not the naisargika atmakaraka). The pre-eminence is to the

chara atmakraka. Why are there 3 schemes of Chara, Sthira and Naisargika

atmakaraka? Think in terms of the tripod of life. Do you have another

explanation? Why does a sage of the level of Parasara say that both 7 and 8

chara karaka schemes are used? If he wanted he could have simply dismissed

whichever was incorrect, knowing well that his words would be obeyed without

question even five thousand years later by people like me. To find the ONLY

plausible explanation, please read my articles presented at ACVA which are now

in the web http://srath.com Someone can give exact links. I have also quoted

the Gita therein to show the relevance of the words of Parasara. If I wanted to

dismiss the 7 chara karaka scheme as totally bogus, I could have done that long

time back, and got some *cheap popularity* for dismissing K N Rao. But that

would not be right as when Parasara says both are used, then that is the TRUTH.

So, after knowing the difference between the three karaka schemes, we should

also know what is the difference between the 7 and 8 chara karaka scheme. As

promised, I will give the final proof of the 8 cara karaka scheme in the West

Coast conference this year. Finally, what is the Atma? What is Sva? I have been

taught to think in terms of the tripod of life - Soul, Mind and Body. If you

have further inputs, please give. ~ om tat sat ~ Yours truly, Sanjay Rath