Guest guest Posted June 7, 2003 Report Share Posted June 7, 2003 Dear members, I have read all the emails on this subject and am hesitant to say anything because I can see where both sides are coming from and respect their views. However, realistically, how is a sincere, good Jyotishi to support himself? If he has to work a typical 10 hour day (or longer), wants to spend at least some time with his family and gets only two to three weeks vacation a year...when is there time to study scriptures, do research, attend conferences, etc. and then be able to give good counsel to people who come to consult him? A minister or priest is supported by the congregation and the church and given a home. There is no such organization to provide support for Jyotishis. Jyotish is a divine science, but, on earth, like ministers and priests, Jyotishis need to still pay bills and eat. I would very much like to see more high quality, dedicated Jyotishis in the U.S., but this would be hopeless if they could not charge a fee. The spiritual counsel someone like me can receive from a Jyotishi is, frankly, invaluable, priceless, but I would be very troubled if I could not offer some standardized fee in gratitude. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I didn't mean to. Sincerely, Laurie Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2003 Report Share Posted June 7, 2003 Hi Ramadas, Back from the weekend, I must confess to feeling a little disappointed at reading your and the other responses to my reply on this thread. The point is, I think you missed my point ) How can what I wrote be purported to be an endorsement of charging fees? I was having a sideswipe at whoever it was that suggested fees. My retro Merc always (nearly) gives a weird meaning to the one reading, I suppose But the profundity of what you wrote was unmistakable, doubtless. Warm regards, Ramapriya hubli (AT) vsnl (DOT) com - Ramadas Rao vedic astrology Friday, June 06, 2003 11:34 AM Re: [vedic astrology] A thought on Astrology and the Science SRI RAGHAVENDRAYA NAMAH OM AKSHARAYA NAMAH Dear Ramapriya, I object about charging for Astrological consultations.In Prashna Margam,it says the person who wants to know about his future must go to a well qualified Daivajna ( Jyotisha ) with fruits,flowers,coconut and Dakshina and keep them in front of the Astrologer and then ask the question.But now in this modern world all our old traditions are slowly vanishing except in villages of South India ( I have no idea about North Indian villages ) still this tradition is prevalent.Now Dakshina means not charging the fees and it is a amount which the qurent gives to an Astrologer so that whatever the Astrologer says would become correct and auspicious results to be available to him and his family. Here in Kuwait many people who come to me after completing of consultation,they ask me what is your charges.So I have told everybody who visited me that this Jyotishya is a Divine science and the predictions come from the daily prayers and the Vak Siddhi of a true Astrologer and if GOD gives you any intution in your mind to offer me as a Dakshina,I will take that amount but I will not tell them what is my fees.Ofcourse,I am still following the old tradition.( Shani my Lagna lord in 9th aspected by Guru from Meena Rasi with Budha and Surya.and Shani is considered as very old like great grand father. I know many of the listed members may not agree this but this is my principle in my life. I hope this helps you. With best regards, Ramadas Rao.Ramapriya D <hubli (AT) hotpop (DOT) com> wrote: You're right. Astrologers should especially charge. There's otherwise littleor no chance of getting sued or ruined by a client.Ramapriyahubli (AT) vsnl (DOT) com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2003 Report Share Posted June 7, 2003 Dear Ramapriya, Please get cooled.I have not told anything for you.I just wrote your name in the beginning of the letter and dont feel bad.If you are really hurt ,I ask your pardon because you are one of my best friends.I have given a general idea of mine to the list and not for you especially. I think now you will really smile. ( Hahaha !!! ) With best regards, Ramadas Rao.Ramapriya D <hubli (AT) hotpop (DOT) com> wrote: Hi Ramadas, Back from the weekend, I must confess to feeling a little disappointed at reading your and the other responses to my reply on this thread. The point is, I think you missed my point ) How can what I wrote be purported to be an endorsement of charging fees? I was having a sideswipe at whoever it was that suggested fees. My retro Merc always (nearly) gives a weird meaning to the one reading, I suppose But the profundity of what you wrote was unmistakable, doubtless. Warm regards, Ramapriya hubli (AT) vsnl (DOT) com - Ramadas Rao vedic astrology Friday, June 06, 2003 11:34 AM Re: [vedic astrology] A thought on Astrology and the Science SRI RAGHAVENDRAYA NAMAH OM AKSHARAYA NAMAH Dear Ramapriya, I object about charging for Astrological consultations.In Prashna Margam,it says the person who wants to know about his future must go to a well qualified Daivajna ( Jyotisha ) with fruits,flowers,coconut and Dakshina and keep them in front of the Astrologer and then ask the question.But now in this modern world all our old traditions are slowly vanishing except in villages of South India ( I have no idea about North Indian villages ) still this tradition is prevalent.Now Dakshina means not charging the fees and it is a amount which the qurent gives to an Astrologer so that whatever the Astrologer says would become correct and auspicious results to be available to him and his family. Here in Kuwait many people who come to me after completing of consultation,they ask me what is your charges.So I have told everybody who visited me that this Jyotishya is a Divine science and the predictions come from the daily prayers and the Vak Siddhi of a true Astrologer and if GOD gives you any intution in your mind to offer me as a Dakshina,I will take that amount but I will not tell them what is my fees.Ofcourse,I am still following the old tradition.( Shani my Lagna lord in 9th aspected by Guru from Meena Rasi with Budha and Surya.and Shani is considered as very old like great grand father. I know many of the listed members may not agree this but this is my principle in my life. I hope this helps you. With best regards, Ramadas Rao.Ramapriya D <hubli (AT) hotpop (DOT) com> wrote: You're right. Astrologers should especially charge. There's otherwise littleor no chance of getting sued or ruined by a client.Ramapriyahubli (AT) vsnl (DOT) comArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Catch all the cricket action. Download Score tracker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2003 Report Share Posted June 7, 2003 Dear Laurie, I had given the principles laid down in our ancient classics.But in your country the life style is different and you can follow the rules and principles of the country you reside.But when you are charging please take care to see that your charges are a burden to them. With best regards, Ramadas Rao.Laurie Harbour <alsharbour > wrote: Dear members, I have read all the emails on this subject and am hesitant to say anything because I can see where both sides are coming from and respect their views. However, realistically, how is a sincere, good Jyotishi to support himself? If he has to work a typical 10 hour day (or longer), wants to spend at least some time with his family and gets only two to three weeks vacation a year...when is there time to study scriptures, do research, attend conferences, etc. and then be able to give good counsel to people who come to consult him? A minister or priest is supported by the congregation and the church and given a home. There is no such organization to provide support for Jyotishis. Jyotish is a divine science, but, on earth, like ministers and priests, Jyotishis need to still pay bills and eat. I would very much like to see more high quality, dedicated Jyotishis in the U.S., but this would be hopeless if they could not charge a fee. The spiritual counsel someone like me can receive from a Jyotishi is, frankly, invaluable, priceless, but I would be very troubled if I could not offer some standardized fee in gratitude. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I didn't mean to. Sincerely, Laurie Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Catch all the cricket action. Download Score tracker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2003 Report Share Posted June 7, 2003 Thanks for the response. I have read your views and see that you are indeed yourself following the old tradition in a noble fashion, for which I have the utmost respect. I genuinely wish it could be that way in the U.S. However, it is not. I wonder if it can really be that way for most Jyotishis even if modern India...but about this I don't really know, so I won't venture to say anything further. I also wanted to clarify something it sounds like you may have misunderstood - I am not a Jyotishi and, thus, have no plans of ever charging fees. I am only a student, but I have a profound respect and admiration for this Divine Science. I also agree with you completely that the fees should never be burdensome. Sincerely, LaurieRamadas Rao <ramadasrao (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: SRI RAGHAVENDRAYA NAMAH OM PURUSHOTTAMAYA NAMAH Dear Laurie, I had given the principles laid down in our ancient classics.But in your country the life style is different and you can follow the rules and principles of the country you reside.But when you are charging please take care to see that your charges are a burden to them. With best regards, Ramadas Rao.Laurie Harbour <alsharbour > wrote: Dear members, I have read all the emails on this subject and am hesitant to say anything because I can see where both sides are coming from and respect their views. However, realistically, how is a sincere, good Jyotishi to support himself? If he has to work a typical 10 hour day (or longer), wants to spend at least some time with his family and gets only two to three weeks vacation a year...when is there time to study scriptures, do research, attend conferences, etc. and then be able to give good counsel to people who come to consult him? A minister or priest is supported by the congregation and the church and given a home. There is no such organization to provide support for Jyotishis. Jyotish is a divine science, but, on earth, like ministers and priests, Jyotishis need to still pay bills and eat. I would very much like to see more high quality, dedicated Jyotishis in the U.S., but this would be hopeless if they could not charge a fee. The spiritual counsel someone like me can receive from a Jyotishi is, frankly, invaluable, priceless, but I would be very troubled if I could not offer some standardized fee in gratitude. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I didn't mean to. Sincerely, Laurie Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Catch all the cricket action. Download Score tracker Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2003 Report Share Posted June 7, 2003 Dear Mr.Laurie, Thanks for the comments and sorry for my misunderstanding. With best regards, Ramadas Rao.Laurie Harbour <alsharbour > wrote: Dear Mr. Rao, Thanks for the response. I have read your views and see that you are indeed yourself following the old tradition in a noble fashion, for which I have the utmost respect. I genuinely wish it could be that way in the U.S. However, it is not. I wonder if it can really be that way for most Jyotishis even if modern India...but about this I don't really know, so I won't venture to say anything further. I also wanted to clarify something it sounds like you may have misunderstood - I am not a Jyotishi and, thus, have no plans of ever charging fees. I am only a student, but I have a profound respect and admiration for this Divine Science. I also agree with you completely that the fees should never be burdensome. Sincerely, LaurieRamadas Rao <ramadasrao (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: SRI RAGHAVENDRAYA NAMAH OM PURUSHOTTAMAYA NAMAH Dear Laurie, I had given the principles laid down in our ancient classics.But in your country the life style is different and you can follow the rules and principles of the country you reside.But when you are charging please take care to see that your charges are a burden to them. With best regards, Ramadas Rao.Laurie Harbour <alsharbour > wrote: Dear members, I have read all the emails on this subject and am hesitant to say anything because I can see where both sides are coming from and respect their views. However, realistically, how is a sincere, good Jyotishi to support himself? If he has to work a typical 10 hour day (or longer), wants to spend at least some time with his family and gets only two to three weeks vacation a year...when is there time to study scriptures, do research, attend conferences, etc. and then be able to give good counsel to people who come to consult him? A minister or priest is supported by the congregation and the church and given a home. There is no such organization to provide support for Jyotishis. Jyotish is a divine science, but, on earth, like ministers and priests, Jyotishis need to still pay bills and eat. I would very much like to see more high quality, dedicated Jyotishis in the U.S., but this would be hopeless if they could not charge a fee. The spiritual counsel someone like me can receive from a Jyotishi is, frankly, invaluable, priceless, but I would be very troubled if I could not offer some standardized fee in gratitude. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I didn't mean to. Sincerely, Laurie Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Catch all the cricket action. Download Score tracker Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Catch all the cricket action. Download Score tracker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2003 Report Share Posted June 7, 2003 Dear Youry, Thanks for the comments and I have given the principles followed during those times and I am following now also. With best regards, Ramadas Rao.khmelevsky_y (AT) usp (DOT) ac.fj wrote: Om Hoom Ram Chaitanyayai Namah Dear Ramadas Ji,Thank you very much for your excellent answer! All are in hands of Supreme GOD! If we do our job properly, we will have money, and as a rule, not from our services. If somebody desire to have big money from Jyotish services, teaching and science, treatment, that is very big mistake. We can have some money from that, but that should be as gratitude from others.In other way, it's better to find any other services to get money for the given service. Youry ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Fri, 6 Jun 2003 08:34:05 +0100 (BST) Ramadas Rao <ramadasrao (AT) (DOT) co.in>Subject: Re: A thought on Astrology and the ScienceSRI RAGHAVENDRAYA NAMAH OM AKSHARAYA NAMAHDear Ramapriya,I object about charging for Astrological consultations.In Prashna Margam,it says the person who wants to know about his future must go to a well qualified Daivajna ( Jyotisha ) with fruits,flowers,coconut and Dakshina and keep them in front of the Astrologer and then ask the question.But now in this modern world all our old traditions are slowly vanishing except in villages of South India ( I have no idea about North Indian villages ) still this tradition is prevalent.Now Dakshina means not charging the fees and it is a amount which the qurent gives to an Astrologer so that whatever the Astrologer says would become correct and auspicious results to be available to him and his family.Here in Kuwait many people who come to me after completing of consultation,they ask me what is your charges.So I have told everybody who visited me that this Jyotishya is a Divine science and the predictions come from the daily prayers and the Vak Siddhi of a true Astrologer and if GOD gives you any intution in your mind to offer me as a Dakshina,I will take that amount but I will not tell them what is my fees.Ofcourse,I am still following the old tradition.( Shani my Lagna lord in 9th aspected by Guru from Meena Rasi with Budha and Surya.and Shani is considered as very old like great grand father.I know many of the listed members may not agree this but this is my principle in my life.I hope this helps you.With best regards,Ramadas Rao.Ramapriya D <hubli (AT) hotpop (DOT) com> wrote:You're right. Astrologers should especially charge. There's otherwise littleor no chance of getting sued or ruined by a client.Ramapriyahubli (AT) vsnl (DOT) comArchives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Catch all the cricket action. Download Score tracker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2003 Report Share Posted June 7, 2003 Dear UMS, As already explained , personally I do not charge money as I too think like you that the shashtra is meant to help people being Vedanga. Having said that, is it no true about all the professions specially the medical one? Again the duty is cast both on the astrologer and the jataka. The ancient texts do not prohibit receipt of Dakshina. Exploitation is of course a taboo. Coming to rest of your mails, Nostradamus's predictions are not scriptures. Most of the quatrains are indecpherable. People try to corelate the quatrains to any major events. There is a library of Nostradamus and its curator had one informed that most of the predictions linked to him were not made by him at all. Times of India had carried the story about the time of Gulf war. So let us not bring Nostradamus in Vedic astrology. Verdic astrology does not allow one to get inebrieted for making predicions. If we talk about sprituality and religion vis-a-vis religion, then you will many cults of ,sadly, Hinduism doing precisely that. There are fees for deeksha and fees for Kundalini Jagran and what not. So let us steer clear of the subject as some get sensitive about this. What I am going to say now might draw me some flak, but do not confuse spirituality with Astrology, though , now a days it is fasionable to claim spiritual experiences to prove oneself to be a good astrologer. The reason is precisely the commercialisation of spiritualism under the garb of religiosity. If you read Gita read what Lord has said about how many of the seekers really understand His true nature you will know that the mumber is miniscule. Spirituality, at least in Hindu religion, as I understand it, is a quest of the Atman within and the partman and is a highly personal experience, neither to be advertised nor anything to boast about. If you reach Him there would be no desirtes left and hence desire to project yourself as a spiritual person would also disappear. Do anot confuse spiritualism with rituals and external and over fprms of worship. Dear Rajindersinghji's concern is right. But have you not found people taking Sanyas and staying in one place for more than three days? How many people have returned to Grihasthashram afer taking Sanyas and still claim to be Sanyasis? Or Kirtankaaras posing as Gurus? There are good and bad people in every field, it is the seeker of blessings who has to be on his guard. About your example about engineering, have you heard of Space shuttle disintegrating recently ? Do you think NASA scientists blasted off, though engineering theroies indicated that it will disintegrate, and put the risks of aastronaughts at risk deliberately? I think not. Every science has an element of error built into it and more so in case of predictive science. Most of the Astrology books are sold, with your logic they should be given free and those who wrote them should be declared non spiritual or not practicing astrology of Vedas. This is not the case. They are providing knowledge to many who would like to get it without going through the rigours of going to Gurukul and serving the Master( though few Girikulas are to be found now). It is always easy to tell others not to expect any returns for the time and knowledge that he puts up on behalf of others, but difficult to do it one self. All sciences are meant to help people and in ancient India payments were not accepted. However students used to pay in kind, by means of doing work of Guru or through various donations to the upkeep of the Ashram. We even offer something to God. So please do not link spiritualism to charging of money. O hope you and others on the list take this in right spirit. If I have hurt any body's sentiments I seek their pardon in advance. Chandrashekhar. - planck12 vedic astrology Friday, June 06, 2003 11:01 AM [vedic astrology] Re: A thought on Astrology and the Science Dear Chandrashekharji and Rajendraji, Its nice to know that you dont charge money for the good deed of predicting and helping. The way I tend to reason out along very simple lines. Times have no doubt changed and people infact have also changed. But the thing is if an astrologer holds and abides by the rules of sprituality and religion then his rules will stay afast and would not change with time. I mean only then can we say that an astrologer is different. I mean the science of astrology rest very much with intuition too. There are many rules in astrology and if one was to merely follow rules and leave intuition behind then one would achieve say about 40 to 60% accuray or perhaps less. But when one integrates pure intuition with astrological principles now thats where true astrology comes to play its part. The old Nostradamn Scirptuers say that he had to get intoxicated using drugs such as morphine to bring his sixth sense to life. It isbecause it is believed that some drugs calm the concious mind and bring to life the unconcious mind. which becomes hypnosis in todays world. Neways that getting out of the topic. But if an astrolger charges someone on grounds of predicting his or her destiney then the idea of self respect and intuition goes out the window. Because Astrology becomes more of a proffession, as much as it hurts to see the present state of education in India or the world where proffessors are paid money and all they come to earn at school is money (ofcourwe with the exception of few good profs) and have no clue about what they are teaching as long as the hours are fullfiled in class and they get their salary. They do not really care about a students future. Because they regard and pay more weightage to money. Similary if as Dear Rajendraji mentioned, if we begin to regard astrology as a proffession we would be doing great unjust to it. I think astrology is an art that many like to see work, few like to understand and a very few like to be obessed with and dwell truly into its true nature. We attach so much interlinking of astrology with dieties and gods but yet we at the other hand weigh its value in money and maya. Something this is totally against the rules. A spritual person who wants to praise God cannot be materaliztic and vice versa. So how then can a spritiual tool such as astrology become materaliztic and turn it into a proffession. On the concept of faith. We have faith in God inspite of we being unable to see. We have faith in Him because we turn to him durring difficult times. In a smiliar fashion someone who is distressed has faith in a good astrologer and turns to him to seek advice. God guides us without money or without any element of materalisum and so I feel a good astrologer can also do the same without the element of money. Because if we start to link money with astrology then astrology loses all its essennce and becomes like any other proffession. The only difference is other proffessions show results as in a physical law holding good in one case of engineering will definately hold good under simliar parameters in other places say I test an alloy at 1400 C and it breaks at such a such force then rest assured if that alloy is test in spain or japan or india it will yield the same results. But with astrology its not the case. It yields results to ur likings especially on the heavier issues of life like death and birth. All opinions are welcome on how the influence of money has made astrology from spritual to a materalistic money making element that sometime tends to play on peoples emotions and some astrologers taking needful people on a ride for money. Also when I come to think of it true knowledge holds good only when it is not sold or has a market value. The great maharishi gave down and passed knoweldge by solely seeing the person and then accepting him as their student rather than seeing how much money he could afford or perhaps at that time how much land he had or was he the son of a king or of the aritocracy class. regardsUms--- In vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar" <boxdel> wrote:> Dear UMS,> Though I do not charge anything for predictions, I do not think that there is anything wrong if somebody does this. The reason is that not all the Jatakas follow what they should do while advising Astrologers to follow their duties. I have seen persons wanting a particular answer from astrologer pestering him to give that answer. Even on this list you will see many mails from persons cribbing about their problems, instead of seeking advice after putting up their own analysis, as this is a list for study of astrology. If somebody wants to waste his own and the astrologer's time, then there is nothing wrong if the astrologer charges him for his time.> The shastras enjoin one to help only those who approach with humility, have faith and are in disstress. You should see the language used in some of the mails. I would of course not side by an astrologer if he is trying to exploit Jataka by playing on his fears.> Chandrashekhar.> - > planck12 > vedic astrology > Thursday, June 05, 2003 9:28 PM> [vedic astrology] Re: A thought on Astrology and the Science> > > Dear Rageshwariji, > Interesting insight. What Im wondering though is astrology is a science having its roots in tradition and religion. I wonder what it would be like if we got charged to go into temples? I wonder wot it would be like if we got charged to pray to God? > > An astrologer is a mortal being which is very true, but the tool that he tends to be working is rather more immortal then mortal. If an astrologer has to suppor this kids and family then I think he/she should hold a full time job a job that is inline with the working world dont u think. And astrology should be something he uses to help people. As Ive come to see most of the astologers today are holding a full time job and pracitce and supplement astrology as a partime venture. After all we have to agree that the world have become very materalistic and everyone wants money. > > Has it occured that mostly people who are upset and face difficuitles in life tend to turn to astrology, it hardly the other way people who are well off turning to astrology never happens. So obvisouly people who are in trouble or pain might or might not have money. People who have money perhaps should give it in terms of donation, but what happens to people who do not have money to pay such huge sums and who are still in problem and would like to seek help what about them? > > It becomes simliar to the case of medicince a Dr not operating or helping a patient who has no money or who cannot afford. Which directly contradicts the principles of medical ethics but people still do it because of money. > > As a humanly gesture it is very inappropriate for a Dr to do that, so I think it would be inappropriate for an astrologer like wise. Especially if astrologer more so rests on the fundamentals of religion and God. Just like one of our other memebers mentioned. I see these astrologers who charge a lot of money they usually tend to predict thigns wrong why!! because its made astrology a trade and people tend to poke jokes at it when one goes to an astrologer solely because of the high sums the clients pay and nothing or perhaps only 10-20% get accurate. > > Secondly Ive observed some villiage astrologers who ask for donation or dont charge money at all make highly accurate predicitons. > > Since I believe if astrology is a divine science then the divine and the immortal force will definately though magic bring about this ability that a person who helps others without bais will provide better predictions than a person who tries to help himself first at the expence of another using a tool like astrology> > Opinions would be much appreciated> > regards> Ums> > > > > --- In vedic astrology, "rageshwari75" <rageshwari75> wrote:> > Dear Nareshji,> > > > +1.> > > > In my opinion, an astrologer should charge money. Reason is, > > astrologer is a mortal being and he needs to put his kids through > > college education and plan for retirement. In ancient times, people > > used to respect astrologers and they used to give them dakshina > > without astrologers having to ask for it. In those days, it made > > sense for astrologers not to demand for money. But these days, people > > have not remain the same and so neither should astrologers. Besides, > > I believe astrology being science, needs a lot of research and time > > and energy. And research has its own costs right? For instance, an > > astrologer would want to attend the conferences, buy books, etc. > > Where would he/she bring money to sustain this kind of research, if > > they don't make money? So for a lot of practical purposes astrologers > > charging money makes great sense.> > > > But then we come to the concept of service and quality. If > > astrologers think they are giving some kind of service and should > > charge money for it, they need to guarantee quality of their service. > > Hence, if a prediction/remedy fails, astrologer MUST return the money > > back and update his/her knowledge.> > > > Namaste.> > > > Rageshwari.> > > > --- In vedic astrology, "nareshcg" <nareshcg> > > wrote:> > > I have consulted quite a few astrologers till date and paid money > > > it. Almost all of them have made wrong predictions. If astrology is > > > a service being charged for, there should be a pay back/ penalty > > for > > > the wrong advice/ medication.> > > > > > --- In vedic astrology, "planck12" <planck12> > > > wrote:> > > > Hello everyone, > > > > Im just wondering amongest the following who would be better > > > placed in the books of God since we consider astrology a divine > > > science. > > > > > > > > 1.An astrologer who charges money to predict things and for > > > everything he/she says he/she charges money making astrology a > > > business > > > > > > > > 2. An astrologer who wants some kind of donation who will say > > that > > > all donations are accepted again brining the aspect of money into > > > the art religion and the science of astrology > > > > > > > > 3.An astrologer who predicts without any money in return, who > > > predicits with the sole intention of helping and with the sole > > > intention of making the world a better place a guided place and a > > > more infomed place. > > > > > > > > What do the classic books say about people who would start to > > > charge money and make the science and art of astrology a business > > > like any other trade in the kali yuga?> > > > > > > > regards> > > > Ums> > > Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > Archives: vedic astrology> > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html> > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......> > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of is subject to the > > > ---> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> Version: 6.0.486 / Virus Database: 284 - Release 5/29/03 Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.486 / Virus Database: 284 - Release Date: 5/30/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 I am sure there is a typo in your reply .Ramadas Rao <ramadasrao (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: SRI RAGHAVENDRAYA NAMAH OM PURUSHOTTAMAYA NAMAH Dear Laurie, I had given the principles laid down in our ancient classics.But in your country the life style is different and you can follow the rules and principles of the country you reside.But when you are charging please take care to see that your charges are a burden to them. With best regards, Ramadas Rao.Laurie Harbour <alsharbour > wrote: Dear members, I have read all the emails on this subject and am hesitant to say anything because I can see where both sides are coming from and respect their views. However, realistically, how is a sincere, good Jyotishi to support himself? If he has to work a typical 10 hour day (or longer), wants to spend at least some time with his family and gets only two to three weeks vacation a year...when is there time to study scriptures, do research, attend conferences, etc. and then be able to give good counsel to people who come to consult him? A minister or priest is supported by the congregation and the church and given a home. There is no such organization to provide support for Jyotishis. Jyotish is a divine science, but, on earth, like ministers and priests, Jyotishis need to still pay bills and eat. I would very much like to see more high quality, dedicated Jyotishis in the U.S., but this would be hopeless if they could not charge a fee. The spiritual counsel someone like me can receive from a Jyotishi is, frankly, invaluable, priceless, but I would be very troubled if I could not offer some standardized fee in gratitude. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I didn't mean to. Sincerely, Laurie Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Catch all the cricket action. Download Score tracker Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Dear Sridharji, Thanks for correcting.It should be " charges are not burden to them." With best regards, Ramadas Rao.sridhar k <kopparsa > wrote: Dear Ramdas Rao I am sure there is a typo in your reply .Ramadas Rao <ramadasrao (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: SRI RAGHAVENDRAYA NAMAH OM PURUSHOTTAMAYA NAMAH Dear Laurie, I had given the principles laid down in our ancient classics.But in your country the life style is different and you can follow the rules and principles of the country you reside.But when you are charging please take care to see that your charges are a burden to them. With best regards, Ramadas Rao.Laurie Harbour <alsharbour > wrote: Dear members, I have read all the emails on this subject and am hesitant to say anything because I can see where both sides are coming from and respect their views. However, realistically, how is a sincere, good Jyotishi to support himself? If he has to work a typical 10 hour day (or longer), wants to spend at least some time with his family and gets only two to three weeks vacation a year...when is there time to study scriptures, do research, attend conferences, etc. and then be able to give good counsel to people who come to consult him? A minister or priest is supported by the congregation and the church and given a home. There is no such organization to provide support for Jyotishis. Jyotish is a divine science, but, on earth, like ministers and priests, Jyotishis need to still pay bills and eat. I would very much like to see more high quality, dedicated Jyotishis in the U.S., but this would be hopeless if they could not charge a fee. The spiritual counsel someone like me can receive from a Jyotishi is, frankly, invaluable, priceless, but I would be very troubled if I could not offer some standardized fee in gratitude. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I didn't mean to. Sincerely, Laurie Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Catch all the cricket action. Download Score tracker Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... Catch all the cricket action. Download Score tracker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 Dear Chandrashekharji, Yes. I understood and also agree with what you said. Especially, I think one of your statements - More so in case of astrology as the Jataka has also to follow his dharma for the fruits to come through. - makes it very clear that guarantee cannot come in Jyotish predictions. Namaste. Rageshwari. vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar" <boxdel> wrote: > Dear Rageshwari, > If you noticed, I explained at the beginning of my mail that I personally do not charge. Having said that, I remember that once my father told me that you get the correct answers in proportion to the sincerity of questions you ask. > There are hypocondriacs in every field of life and if they choose to avail of any service, they should expect to pay. I remember there is a method of how to approach an astrologer given in "Prashna Tantra" Ch1Stanza 3and also elswhere; where it is said that jataka should worship the Daivagnya and offer him dakshina. As a matter of fact it says"Kusumaratnaphalaagrahasta", which means Flowers, Fruits and Gems. So how many of those who want to quote scriptures or tomes on astrology have done so in their life? > Again, in a predictive science guarantee is a word that is a misfit. More so in case of astrology as the Jataka has also to follow his dharma for the fruits to come through. This is something that the astrologer would, obviously, have no control over. > Have you noticed how many people address a query with a flipant "Hi" and do not even sign their names even on a study list? > I hope you get my meaning. > Chandrashekhar. > - > rageshwari75 > vedic astrology > Friday, June 06, 2003 3:03 AM > [vedic astrology] Re: A thought on Astrology and the Science > > > Dear Chandrashekharji, > > You bring a good point too. > > So then I suppose a charge/no-charge decision should be made based on > how much in distress the Jataka is i.e. how badly the jataka needs > help. > > But then if Jataka is asking for input on not so life-threatening > time-critical factors such as whether my 7 year old son would go to > Harvard, an astrologer might ask for fees. But again, I sincerely > believe that in this case astrologer must guarantee the quality of > prediction. > > But when in comes to remedies, I believe they should be kept free. > Why? Because our Vedas and Vedaangas are there to help people in > need; to provide fodder to folks who seek evolution of their soul. > Then why to deprieve these people of wonderful and effective remedies > for the sake of money? And besides, I believe that by suggesting > remedies without any material expectations is a way for an Astrologer > to earn good karma. > > Namaste. > > Rageshwari. > > vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar" > <boxdel> wrote: > > Dear UMS, > > Though I do not charge anything for predictions, I do not think > that there is anything wrong if somebody does this. The reason is > that not all the Jatakas follow what they should do while advising > Astrologers to follow their duties. I have seen persons wanting a > particular answer from astrologer pestering him to give that answer. > Even on this list you will see many mails from persons cribbing about > their problems, instead of seeking advice after putting up their own > analysis, as this is a list for study of astrology. If somebody wants > to waste his own and the astrologer's time, then there is nothing > wrong if the astrologer charges him for his time. > > The shastras enjoin one to help only those who approach with > humility, have faith and are in disstress. You should see the > language used in some of the mails. I would of course not side by an > astrologer if he is trying to exploit Jataka by playing on his fears. > > Chandrashekhar. > > - > > planck12 > > vedic astrology > > Thursday, June 05, 2003 9:28 PM > > [vedic astrology] Re: A thought on Astrology and the > Science > > > > > > Dear Rageshwariji, > > Interesting insight. What Im wondering though is astrology is a > science having its roots in tradition and religion. I wonder what it > would be like if we got charged to go into temples? I wonder wot it > would be like if we got charged to pray to God? > > > > An astrologer is a mortal being which is very true, but the tool > that he tends to be working is rather more immortal then mortal. If > an astrologer has to suppor this kids and family then I think he/she > should hold a full time job a job that is inline with the working > world dont u think. And astrology should be something he uses to help > people. As Ive come to see most of the astologers today are holding a > full time job and pracitce and supplement astrology as a partime > venture. After all we have to agree that the world have become very > materalistic and everyone wants money. > > > > Has it occured that mostly people who are upset and face > difficuitles in life tend to turn to astrology, it hardly the other > way people who are well off turning to astrology never happens. So > obvisouly people who are in trouble or pain might or might not have > money. People who have money perhaps should give it in terms of > donation, but what happens to people who do not have money to pay > such huge sums and who are still in problem and would like to seek > help what about them? > > > > It becomes simliar to the case of medicince a Dr not operating or > helping a patient who has no money or who cannot afford. Which > directly contradicts the principles of medical ethics but people > still do it because of money. > > > > As a humanly gesture it is very inappropriate for a Dr to do > that, so I think it would be inappropriate for an astrologer like > wise. Especially if astrologer more so rests on the fundamentals of > religion and God. Just like one of our other memebers mentioned. I > see these astrologers who charge a lot of money they usually tend to > predict thigns wrong why!! because its made astrology a trade and > people tend to poke jokes at it when one goes to an astrologer solely > because of the high sums the clients pay and nothing or perhaps only > 10-20% get accurate. > > > > Secondly Ive observed some villiage astrologers who ask for > donation or dont charge money at all make highly accurate > predicitons. > > > > Since I believe if astrology is a divine science then the divine > and the immortal force will definately though magic bring about this > ability that a person who helps others without bais will provide > better predictions than a person who tries to help himself first at > the expence of another using a tool like astrology > > > > Opinions would be much appreciated > > > > regards > > Ums > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "rageshwari75" > <rageshwari75> wrote: > > > Dear Nareshji, > > > > > > +1. > > > > > > In my opinion, an astrologer should charge money. Reason is, > > > astrologer is a mortal being and he needs to put his kids > through > > > college education and plan for retirement. In ancient times, > people > > > used to respect astrologers and they used to give them dakshina > > > without astrologers having to ask for it. In those days, it > made > > > sense for astrologers not to demand for money. But these days, > people > > > have not remain the same and so neither should astrologers. > Besides, > > > I believe astrology being science, needs a lot of research and > time > > > and energy. And research has its own costs right? For instance, > an > > > astrologer would want to attend the conferences, buy books, > etc. > > > Where would he/she bring money to sustain this kind of > research, if > > > they don't make money? So for a lot of practical purposes > astrologers > > > charging money makes great sense. > > > > > > But then we come to the concept of service and quality. If > > > astrologers think they are giving some kind of service and > should > > > charge money for it, they need to guarantee quality of their > service. > > > Hence, if a prediction/remedy fails, astrologer MUST return the > money > > > back and update his/her knowledge. > > > > > > Namaste. > > > > > > Rageshwari. > > > > > > vedic astrology, "nareshcg" > <nareshcg> > > > wrote: > > > > I have consulted quite a few astrologers till date and paid > money > > > > it. Almost all of them have made wrong predictions. If > astrology is > > > > a service being charged for, there should be a pay back/ > penalty > > > for > > > > the wrong advice/ medication. > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "planck12" > <planck12> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > Im just wondering amongest the following who would be > better > > > > placed in the books of God since we consider astrology a > divine > > > > science. > > > > > > > > > > 1.An astrologer who charges money to predict things and for > > > > everything he/she says he/she charges money making astrology > a > > > > business > > > > > > > > > > 2. An astrologer who wants some kind of donation who will > say > > > that > > > > all donations are accepted again brining the aspect of money > into > > > > the art religion and the science of astrology > > > > > > > > > > 3.An astrologer who predicts without any money in return, > who > > > > predicits with the sole intention of helping and with the > sole > > > > intention of making the world a better place a guided place > and a > > > > more infomed place. > > > > > > > > > > What do the classic books say about people who would start > to > > > > charge money and make the science and art of astrology a > business > > > > like any other trade in the kali yuga? > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > Ums > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Group info: vedic- astrology/info.html > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.486 / Virus Database: 284 - Release 5/29/03 > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > Terms of Service. > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.486 / Virus Database: 284 - Release 5/29/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 Dear Rageshwari, I am happy that you have understood what I meant. Chandrashekhar. - rageshwari75 vedic astrology Monday, June 09, 2003 7:41 PM [vedic astrology] Re: A thought on Astrology and the Science Dear Chandrashekharji,Yes. I understood and also agree with what you said. Especially, I think one of your statements - More so in case of astrology as the Jataka has also to follow his dharma for the fruits to come through. -makes it very clear that guarantee cannot come in Jyotish predictions.Namaste.Rageshwari.vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar" <boxdel> wrote:> Dear Rageshwari,> If you noticed, I explained at the beginning of my mail that I personally do not charge. Having said that, I remember that once my father told me that you get the correct answers in proportion to the sincerity of questions you ask.> There are hypocondriacs in every field of life and if they choose to avail of any service, they should expect to pay. I remember there is a method of how to approach an astrologer given in "Prashna Tantra" Ch1Stanza 3and also elswhere; where it is said that jataka should worship the Daivagnya and offer him dakshina. As a matter of fact it says"Kusumaratnaphalaagrahasta", which means Flowers, Fruits and Gems. So how many of those who want to quote scriptures or tomes on astrology have done so in their life?> Again, in a predictive science guarantee is a word that is a misfit. More so in case of astrology as the Jataka has also to follow his dharma for the fruits to come through. This is something that the astrologer would, obviously, have no control over.> Have you noticed how many people address a query with a flipant "Hi" and do not even sign their names even on a study list?> I hope you get my meaning.> Chandrashekhar.> - > rageshwari75 > To: vedic astrology > Friday, June 06, 2003 3:03 AM> [vedic astrology] Re: A thought on Astrology and the Science> > > Dear Chandrashekharji,> > You bring a good point too.> > So then I suppose a charge/no-charge decision should be made based on > how much in distress the Jataka is i.e. how badly the jataka needs > help. > > But then if Jataka is asking for input on not so life-threatening > time-critical factors such as whether my 7 year old son would go to > Harvard, an astrologer might ask for fees. But again, I sincerely > believe that in this case astrologer must guarantee the quality of > prediction.> > But when in comes to remedies, I believe they should be kept free. > Why? Because our Vedas and Vedaangas are there to help people in > need; to provide fodder to folks who seek evolution of their soul. > Then why to deprieve these people of wonderful and effective remedies > for the sake of money? And besides, I believe that by suggesting > remedies without any material expectations is a way for an Astrologer > to earn good karma.> > Namaste.> > Rageshwari.> > vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar" > <boxdel> wrote:> > Dear UMS,> > Though I do not charge anything for predictions, I do not think > that there is anything wrong if somebody does this. The reason is > that not all the Jatakas follow what they should do while advising > Astrologers to follow their duties. I have seen persons wanting a > particular answer from astrologer pestering him to give that answer. > Even on this list you will see many mails from persons cribbing about > their problems, instead of seeking advice after putting up their own > analysis, as this is a list for study of astrology. If somebody wants > to waste his own and the astrologer's time, then there is nothing > wrong if the astrologer charges him for his time.> > The shastras enjoin one to help only those who approach with > humility, have faith and are in disstress. You should see the > language used in some of the mails. I would of course not side by an > astrologer if he is trying to exploit Jataka by playing on his fears.> > Chandrashekhar.> > - > > planck12 > > vedic astrology > > Thursday, June 05, 2003 9:28 PM> > [vedic astrology] Re: A thought on Astrology and the > Science> > > > > > Dear Rageshwariji, > > Interesting insight. What Im wondering though is astrology is a > science having its roots in tradition and religion. I wonder what it > would be like if we got charged to go into temples? I wonder wot it > would be like if we got charged to pray to God? > > > > An astrologer is a mortal being which is very true, but the tool > that he tends to be working is rather more immortal then mortal. If > an astrologer has to suppor this kids and family then I think he/she > should hold a full time job a job that is inline with the working > world dont u think. And astrology should be something he uses to help > people. As Ive come to see most of the astologers today are holding a > full time job and pracitce and supplement astrology as a partime > venture. After all we have to agree that the world have become very > materalistic and everyone wants money. > > > > Has it occured that mostly people who are upset and face > difficuitles in life tend to turn to astrology, it hardly the other > way people who are well off turning to astrology never happens. So > obvisouly people who are in trouble or pain might or might not have > money. People who have money perhaps should give it in terms of > donation, but what happens to people who do not have money to pay > such huge sums and who are still in problem and would like to seek > help what about them? > > > > It becomes simliar to the case of medicince a Dr not operating or > helping a patient who has no money or who cannot afford. Which > directly contradicts the principles of medical ethics but people > still do it because of money. > > > > As a humanly gesture it is very inappropriate for a Dr to do > that, so I think it would be inappropriate for an astrologer like > wise. Especially if astrologer more so rests on the fundamentals of > religion and God. Just like one of our other memebers mentioned. I > see these astrologers who charge a lot of money they usually tend to > predict thigns wrong why!! because its made astrology a trade and > people tend to poke jokes at it when one goes to an astrologer solely > because of the high sums the clients pay and nothing or perhaps only > 10-20% get accurate. > > > > Secondly Ive observed some villiage astrologers who ask for > donation or dont charge money at all make highly accurate > predicitons. > > > > Since I believe if astrology is a divine science then the divine > and the immortal force will definately though magic bring about this > ability that a person who helps others without bais will provide > better predictions than a person who tries to help himself first at > the expence of another using a tool like astrology> > > > Opinions would be much appreciated> > > > regards> > Ums> > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "rageshwari75" > <rageshwari75> wrote:> > > Dear Nareshji,> > > > > > +1.> > > > > > In my opinion, an astrologer should charge money. Reason is, > > > astrologer is a mortal being and he needs to put his kids > through > > > college education and plan for retirement. In ancient times, > people > > > used to respect astrologers and they used to give them dakshina > > > without astrologers having to ask for it. In those days, it > made > > > sense for astrologers not to demand for money. But these days, > people > > > have not remain the same and so neither should astrologers. > Besides, > > > I believe astrology being science, needs a lot of research and > time > > > and energy. And research has its own costs right? For instance, > an > > > astrologer would want to attend the conferences, buy books, > etc. > > > Where would he/she bring money to sustain this kind of > research, if > > > they don't make money? So for a lot of practical purposes > astrologers > > > charging money makes great sense.> > > > > > But then we come to the concept of service and quality. If > > > astrologers think they are giving some kind of service and > should > > > charge money for it, they need to guarantee quality of their > service. > > > Hence, if a prediction/remedy fails, astrologer MUST return the > money > > > back and update his/her knowledge.> > > > > > Namaste.> > > > > > Rageshwari.> > > > > > vedic astrology, "nareshcg" > <nareshcg> > > > wrote:> > > > I have consulted quite a few astrologers till date and paid > money > > > > it. Almost all of them have made wrong predictions. If > astrology is > > > > a service being charged for, there should be a pay back/ > penalty > > > for > > > > the wrong advice/ medication.> > > > > > > > --- In vedic astrology, "planck12" > <planck12> > > > > wrote:> > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > Im just wondering amongest the following who would be > better > > > > placed in the books of God since we consider astrology a > divine > > > > science. > > > > > > > > > > 1.An astrologer who charges money to predict things and for > > > > everything he/she says he/she charges money making astrology > a > > > > business > > > > > > > > > > 2. An astrologer who wants some kind of donation who will > say > > > that > > > > all donations are accepted again brining the aspect of money > into > > > > the art religion and the science of astrology > > > > > > > > > > 3.An astrologer who predicts without any money in return, > who > > > > predicits with the sole intention of helping and with the > sole > > > > intention of making the world a better place a guided place > and a > > > > more infomed place. > > > > > > > > > > What do the classic books say about people who would start > to > > > > charge money and make the science and art of astrology a > business > > > > like any other trade in the kali yuga?> > > > > > > > > > regards> > > > > Ums> > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Archives: vedic astrology> > > > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......> > > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > > > Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms of > Service. > > > > > > ---> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> > Version: 6.0.486 / Virus Database: 284 - Release 5/29/03> > > Sponsor > > > > > > > Archives: vedic astrology> > Group info: vedic astrology/info.html> > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......> > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > Your use of is subject to the > > > ---> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> Version: 6.0.486 / Virus Database: 284 - Release 5/29/03 Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info: vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.486 / Virus Database: 284 - Release Date: 5/30/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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