Why is // Jupiter capable of destroying the house it and Saturn Protects//

August 30, 2003

Chandrashekhar ji Namaste

>I have said student /king feels disturbed in presence of the Guru,

>him being a displinaranian regarding study and Dharma.

This statement is not clear with the astrological context. In the

non-astrological sense as well why would student feel 'distrubed' in

the presence of Guru? It is ok if student has gone to Guru's place.

i.e. School but when Guru has come to the student house why student

should feel distrubed? I suppose it should be a occasion to

celebrate. Your argument is valid only if student has gone to Gurus

place. When Guru has come to your place student will never think of

anything that his Guru does not like. So there is no question

of 'distrubed' feeling for the student. So when Guru goes to a House

(student) it must get protection from the Guru. The capabilities of

the House should become more expressive with the blessings from the

Guru. So Guru can be 'Anistha' unfavorable( and not harmful) but

certainly not when in your house.When I said all Gurus except

Krishna faild I wanted to say that in all the incidences of

Mahabharat whenever there was a conflict between 'good' and 'bad' in

the presence of the Gurus, 'bad' prevailed. Draupadi vastraharan,

Dyuta-krida, Abhimanyu Vadha, and several other things can be put,

where, in the presence of all learned gurus, these things happened.

Possibly because of their lack of courage or big Ego. Krishna did

not fail because of Gita. He could change Arjunas mind to fight.

As far as Arjunas shoka is concerned, I think there is absolutly

nothing wrong in Arjunas reaction. Krishna never said not to grief

on the death of near and dear ones. Rather in the VAlmiki Ranmayana

Rama himself grieved like a child so much so that Lakshaman had to

say some strong words to Rama. To express grief at the death of near

and dear is a must for every grihastha. The intensity and medium of

expression may vary. when Krishna said "Sukha Dukkha sam krutwa...".

he said with reference to Yudha. If we see the complete shloka then

it would be clear.

SukhaDukhe Same Krutwa Labhalaboo Jayajayoo |

tato Yudhaya Yujuyaswa naivam papamvapyasi ||2.38||

Treating Sukha-Dukha, Labha(Gain)-Hani(loss), Jaya-PArajaya as same

you should be ready for the war.

So when your relatives are ready for the war you should not act as a

klib. you should not feel grief on these relatives. But that does

not mean that Arjuna should not haved greived over the death of his

own son with whom he had no fights. HAd Arjuna expressed any grief

over the death of relatives whom he himelf killed the war then it

could have been failure of Krishna. On the contarary Krishna has

further said

"Niyatam Kuru karma tvam karma jyayo ayhakarmanaH|

shariyatrapi cha te na prasidhyedkarmanaH||"

So I think Krishna has not failed in imparting knowledge to Arjuna

and neither Arjuna failed in implementing it because Krishna (guru)

was with him.

Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

AmolMAndar

vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar Sharma"

<boxdel> wrote:

> Dear Amolmandar,

> You are again missing the point. I have not said that student does

anything

> bad. I have said student /king feels disturbed in presence of the

Guru, him

> being a displinaranian regarding study and Dharma. Thus the house

does not

> express itself fully hence the specific Bharashta while indicating

effect of

> Guru's joining a house. I have already stated that the example is

meant only

> to amplify the concept and the example, though based on

astrological

> concepts is not from an astrological work. Again I do not

understand the

> concept of all Gurus other than Krishna failing in Mahabharata.

Their

> shishyas might have failed as indeed they did including Arjuna.

You know

> that I do not generally enter into debates based on perception of

> scriptures. But let me make it clear what I mean by Arjuna having

failed.

> Read Bhagvadgita and see what te Lord told him to achieve. The

lord asked

> him to be a Yogi and described attributes of Yogi. This

included"Sukha

> Dukkha sam krutwa...". Still he grieved on death of Abhimanyu and

swore

> death to Jayadratha before the Sun sets, a situation out of which

the Lord

> had to retrieve him.And later, on death of his other sons and

those of

> others, at end of the Yuddha when they were slain by Ashwatthama

he grieved

> again.Now would you interprete this to mean that the Lord failed

to impart

> knowledge about the indestructibility of Atman to Arjuna? One has

to

> understand the difference between physical Guru and the Guru

principle

> represented by Jupiter.

> Hope this helps.

> Chandrashekhar.

>

> amolmandar [amolmandar]

> Thursday, August 28, 2003 12:15 PM

> vedic astrology

> [vedic astrology] Re: Why is // Jupiter capable of

destroying the

> house it and Saturn Protects//

>

> Chandrashekharji NAmaste

>

> Yes there was no explicit reference of student/king as bad but

tone

> I thought was implicit towards classifying student/king as bad.

>

> > > something which the Guru forbids being bad.

>

> So even if we now take the last post still I am not clear about

> student/king as house and its youth and bad activity. What is the

> youth of a house? And what bad it performs which Guru being

placed

> their forbids it to do so? Dont you think Guru fails because of

ego

> and lack of courage? MAhabharat is the best example. Every Guru

> except for Shri Krishna, failed in Mahabharat because of either

of

> these qualities . SO when ideal Guru(Shri Krishna) is with you,

you

> are bound to succeed. But the company of semi-guru will create

> problems. Astrology I suppose must be considering Guru as ideal

one.

> That is why I feel,Guru should never fail.

>

> Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

>

> AmolMAndar

> vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar Sharma"

> <boxdel> wrote:

> > Dear Amol Mandar,

> > Read the previous mail carefully again. I have not said that

> Student/King is

> > bad. I have said to see what student / king feel about a

> displinarian Guru

> > living with him, though he understands that the lessons are for

> his own

> > good.

> > Chandrashekhar.

> >

> > amolmandar [amolmandar]

> > Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:42 PM

> > vedic astrology

> > [vedic astrology] Re: Why is // Jupiter capable of

> destroying the

> > house it and Saturn Protects//

> >

> > Chandrashekhar ji Namaste

> >

> > Now some confusion. In the analogy of student/king and

> > teacher/minister why do we consider by default,student or

king

> > as 'bad'? The Susthanas represent good and Guru in that

should

> > protect their good and at least should not spoil the effect.

> > Moreover, why should we asume that everytime in the presence

of

> Guru,

> > student would be interested in doing something bad? A good

> student

> > i.e. good house i.e. Susthana in the presence of Guru should

> enhance

> > its capability. Therefore Guru should enhance Sthanas

capabilty.

> If

> > in Susthanas with consent and in Dusthanas without. As it

would

> fail

> > to make 'bad' student 'good'. At least Guru should have that

much

> > discremination power. Or is it that in the case of Susthanas

i.e.

> > with good student Guru fails because of his elevated ego? In

that

> > case we can say that Guru will always fail. In the company of

> good

> > student because of his big EGO and in the company of bad

student

> > because of his lack of courage. As a matter of fact, if

student

> is

> > really bad then Guru must make him good and in the case of

good

> > student Guru must appriciate student.

> >

> > Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

> >

> > AmolMAndar

> >

> > vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar

Sharma"

> > <boxdel> wrote:

> > > Dear Amolmandar,

> > > I will give you an example outside astrology and

religion.Guru

> > represents

> > > Minister or the teacher . Now teacher tells that which is

> right.

> > Students

> > > many a times feel unconfortable in the presence of the

Teacher

> as he

> > > monitors their behaviour, specially if in their youth they

> want to

> > do

> Simialr is the case with

> > the king

> > > whose ministers forbids him from doing something that is

> against

> > RajDharma.

> > > Now imagine House where Jupiter is posited being the

> student/King

> > and

> > > Jupiter being the Teacher. The results for the house would

be

> clear.

> > > Of course , as I said earlier this is only my way at

looking

> at it

> > in order

> > > to understand why this happens, and the Sages' principles

are

> given

> > to us as

> > > such without the reasons behind them. We have to apply our

> Viveka

> > to fathom

> > > the logic behind it.Other worthies might hold different

views.

> > > Hope this helps understand the concept.

> > > Chandrashekhar.

> > >

> > > amolmandar [amolmandar]

> > > Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:39 PM

> > > vedic astrology

> > > [vedic astrology] Re: Why is // Jupiter capable

of

> > destroying the

> > > house it and Saturn Protects//

> > >

> > > Chandrashekharji Namste

> > >

> > > As usual you explained the things very lucidly but just

> slight

> > doubt.

> > > It is said many times that Guru is Dharma (not religion)

and

> it

> > is as

> > > well said that Guru tries to uphold Dharma but usually

fails.

> > Hence

> > > Dharma fails. But many say Dharma never fails. So Guru

> should also

> > > never fail. Then why it fails with respect to house? Does

> MAYA

> > play

> > > any role in this?

> > >

> > > Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

> > >

> > > AmolMAndar

> > >

> > > Sponsor

> > >

> > > Group info: vedic-

> astrology/info.html

> > >

> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-

> >

> > >

> > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

> > >

> > > Terms

of

> > Service.

> > >

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8/19/03

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>

> Sponsor

>

> Group info: vedic-

astrology/info.html

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-

>

> ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

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> Terms of

Service.

>

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release 8/19/03

August 30, 2003

Dear Amolmandar,

I had already said that the example of Guru/student/king is an aside from

astrology. However I am amazed at your interpretation of Bhagvadgita.Could you

intereprete what is the meaning of "Ashochyananva shochastvam pradnyavadasch

bhaashse, gatasunagatasunscha nanushochanti panditah"? Adhyaya2 Shloka 11 and

the subsequent shlokas 15,28 and so on. It would ,indeed, be interesting to see

the interpretation of these.

I am aware that there are many interpretations of the Holy Gita and that

sometimes people like to distort it to suit their meaning to the circumstances.

However this does not add to knowledge which we seek. I have seen people

claiming someone's being happy on receiving news of death of other as a mark of

yogi per Gita. I do not find the Lord saying this anywhere.

Anyway since you have decided that Jupiter helps the house in which he is

situated, without exception it is your prerogative and I would not like to

comment on it. I had only given what has been stated by Sages.

Hope this helps

Chandrashekhar.

amolmandar [amolmandar ]Sent:

Saturday, August 30, 2003 2:19 PMvedic astrologySubject:

[vedic astrology] Re: Why is // Jupiter capable of destroying the house it and

Saturn Protects//Chandrashekhar ji Namaste>I have said student /king feels

disturbed in presence of the Guru, >him being a displinaranian regarding study

and Dharma.This statement is not clear with the astrological context. In the

non-astrological sense as well why would student feel 'distrubed' in the

presence of Guru? It is ok if student has gone to Guru's place. i.e. School but

when Guru has come to the student house why student should feel distrubed? I

suppose it should be a occasion to celebrate. Your argument is valid only if

student has gone to Gurus place. When Guru has come to your place student will

never think of anything that his Guru does not like. So there is no question of

'distrubed' feeling for the student. So when Guru goes to a House(student) it

must get protection from the Guru. The capabilities of the House should become

more expressive with the blessings from the Guru. So Guru can be 'Anistha'

unfavorable( and not harmful) but certainly not when in your house.When I said

all Gurus except Krishna faild I wanted to say that in all the incidences of

Mahabharat whenever there was a conflict between 'good' and 'bad' in the

presence of the Gurus, 'bad' prevailed. Draupadi vastraharan, Dyuta-krida,

Abhimanyu Vadha, and several other things can be put, where, in the presence of

all learned gurus, these things happened. Possibly because of their lack of

courage or big Ego. Krishna did not fail because of Gita. He could change

Arjunas mind to fight.As far as Arjunas shoka is concerned, I think there is

absolutly nothing wrong in Arjunas reaction. Krishna never said not to grief on

the death of near and dear ones. Rather in the VAlmiki Ranmayana Rama himself

grieved like a child so much so that Lakshaman had to say some strong words to

Rama. To express grief at the death of near and dear is a must for every

grihastha. The intensity and medium of expression may vary. when Krishna said

"Sukha Dukkha sam krutwa...". he said with reference to Yudha. If we see the

complete shloka then it would be clear.SukhaDukhe Same Krutwa Labhalaboo

Jayajayoo |tato Yudhaya Yujuyaswa naivam papamvapyasi ||2.38||Treating

Sukha-Dukha, Labha(Gain)-Hani(loss), Jaya-PArajaya as same you should be ready

for the war. So when your relatives are ready for the war you should not act as

a klib. you should not feel grief on these relatives. But that does not mean

that Arjuna should not haved greived over the death of his own son with whom he

had no fights. HAd Arjuna expressed any grief over the death of relatives whom

he himelf killed the war then it could have been failure of Krishna. On the

contarary Krishna has further said "Niyatam Kuru karma tvam karma jyayo

ayhakarmanaH|shariyatrapi cha te na prasidhyedkarmanaH||"So I think Krishna has

not failed in imparting knowledge to Arjuna and neither Arjuna failed in

implementing it because Krishna (guru) was with him. Thanks a lot for your Time

and Space.AmolMAndarvedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar

Sharma" <boxdel> wrote:> Dear Amolmandar,> You are again missing the

point. I have not said that student does anything> bad. I have said student

/king feels disturbed in presence of the Guru, him> being a displinaranian

regarding study and Dharma. Thus the house does not> express itself fully hence

the specific Bharashta while indicating effect of> Guru's joining a house. I

have already stated that the example is meant only> to amplify the concept and

the example, though based on astrological> concepts is not from an astrological

work. Again I do not understand the> concept of all Gurus other than Krishna

failing in Mahabharata. Their> shishyas might have failed as indeed they did

including Arjuna. You know> that I do not generally enter into debates based on

perception of> scriptures. But let me make it clear what I mean by Arjuna having

failed.> Read Bhagvadgita and see what te Lord told him to achieve. The lord

asked> him to be a Yogi and described attributes of Yogi. This included"Sukha>

Dukkha sam krutwa...". Still he grieved on death of Abhimanyu and swore> death

to Jayadratha before the Sun sets, a situation out of which the Lord> had to

retrieve him.And later, on death of his other sons and those of> others, at end

of the Yuddha when they were slain by Ashwatthama he grieved> again.Now would

you interprete this to mean that the Lord failed to impart> knowledge about the

indestructibility of Atman to Arjuna? One has to> understand the difference

between physical Guru and the Guru principle> represented by Jupiter.> Hope

this helps.> Chandrashekhar.> > amolmandar

[amolmandar]> Thursday, August 28, 2003 12:15 PM> To:

vedic astrology> [vedic astrology] Re: Why is //

Jupiter capable of destroying the> house it and Saturn Protects//> > >

Chandrashekharji NAmaste> > Yes there was no explicit reference of

student/king as bad but tone> I thought was implicit towards classifying

student/king as bad.> > > > something which the Guru forbids being bad.> >

So even if we now take the last post still I am not clear about> student/king

as house and its youth and bad activity. What is the> youth of a house? And

what bad it performs which Guru being placed> their forbids it to do so? Dont

you think Guru fails because of ego> and lack of courage? MAhabharat is the

best example. Every Guru> except for Shri Krishna, failed in Mahabharat

because of either of> these qualities . SO when ideal Guru(Shri Krishna) is

with you, you> are bound to succeed. But the company of semi-guru will

create> problems. Astrology I suppose must be considering Guru as ideal one.>

That is why I feel,Guru should never fail.> > > Thanks a lot for your Time

and Space.> > AmolMAndar> vedic astrology,

"Chandrashekhar Sharma"> <boxdel> wrote:> > Dear Amol Mandar,> >

Read the previous mail carefully again. I have not said that> Student/King

is> > bad. I have said to see what student / king feel about a>

displinarian Guru> > living with him, though he understands that the lessons

are for> his own> > good.> > Chandrashekhar.> >> > -----Original

Message-----> > amolmandar [amolmandar]> > Sent:

Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:42 PM> > vedic astrology>

> [vedic astrology] Re: Why is // Jupiter capable of> destroying

the> > house it and Saturn Protects//> >> >> > Chandrashekhar ji

Namaste> >> > Now some confusion. In the analogy of student/king and>

> teacher/minister why do we consider by default,student or king> > as

'bad'? The Susthanas represent good and Guru in that should> > protect

their good and at least should not spoil the effect.> > Moreover, why

should we asume that everytime in the presence of> Guru,> > student would

be interested in doing something bad? A good> student> > i.e. good house

i.e. Susthana in the presence of Guru should> enhance> > its capability.

Therefore Guru should enhance Sthanas capabilty.> If> > in Susthanas with

consent and in Dusthanas without. As it would> fail> > to make 'bad'

student 'good'. At least Guru should have that much> > discremination

power. Or is it that in the case of Susthanas i.e.> > with good student

Guru fails because of his elevated ego? In that> > case we can say that

Guru will always fail. In the company of> good> > student because of his

big EGO and in the company of bad student> > because of his lack of

courage. As a matter of fact, if student> is> > really bad then Guru

must make him good and in the case of good> > student Guru must appriciate

student.> >> > Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.> >> >

AmolMAndar> >> >> > vedic astrology,

"Chandrashekhar Sharma"> > <boxdel> wrote:> > > Dear Amolmandar,>

> > I will give you an example outside astrology and religion.Guru> >

represents> > > Minister or the teacher . Now teacher tells that which is>

right.> > Students> > > many a times feel unconfortable in the presence

of the Teacher> as he> > > monitors their behaviour, specially if in their

youth they> want to> > do> Simialr is the case with> > the king> >

> whose ministers forbids him from doing something that is> against> >

RajDharma.> > > Now imagine House where Jupiter is posited being the>

student/King> > and> > > Jupiter being the Teacher. The results for the

house would be> clear.> > > Of course , as I said earlier this is only my

way at looking> at it> > in order> > > to understand why this

happens, and the Sages' principles are> given> > to us as> > > such

without the reasons behind them. We have to apply our> Viveka> > to

fathom> > > the logic behind it.Other worthies might hold different views.>

> > Hope this helps understand the concept.> > > Chandrashekhar.> >

> > > > amolmandar

[amolmandar]> > > Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:39 PM> >

> vedic astrology> > > [vedic astrology]

Re: Why is // Jupiter capable of> > destroying the> > > house it and

Saturn Protects//> > >> > >> > > Chandrashekharji Namste> >

>> > > As usual you explained the things very lucidly but just> slight>

> doubt.> > > It is said many times that Guru is Dharma (not religion)

and> it> > is as> > > well said that Guru tries to uphold Dharma but

usually fails.> > Hence> > > Dharma fails. But many say Dharma never

fails. So Guru> should also> > > never fail. Then why it fails with

respect to house? Does> MAYA> > play> > > any role in this?> >

>> > >> > > Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.> > >> > >

AmolMAndar> > >> > >> > > Sponsor> > >

> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Archives:

vedic astrology> > >> > > Group info:

vedic-> astrology/info.html> > >> > >

To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > >

> >> > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......> > >> >

> > > >> > >

Terms of> > Service.>

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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> > > Version:

6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release 8/19/03> >> >> >

Sponsor> > > >> >> >> >> >

Archives: vedic astrology> >> > Group info:

vedic-> astrology/info.html> >> > To

UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > >>

> ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......> >> > || Om Tat Sat

|| Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu ||> >> > Your use of

is subject to the Terms of> Service.> >> > ---> > Outgoing mail

is certified Virus Free.> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system

(http://www.grisoft.com).> > Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release

8/19/03> > > Sponsor> > >

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Blank mail to vedic astrology-> > ....... May

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Terms of Service.> > ---> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> Checked by AVG

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August 30, 2003

Dear Chandrashekhar,

Thank you for this thread. I realize it's not easy to clearly get point accross

in complex issues like this one is- My understanding is- Ju can be both 'papa'

and 'benefic', depending on H.Lordship and aspects. And it's quite a success

that you've lead this thread without falling into black and white trap.

As a result, I also understand better your point, you've consistently

communicated to us, re bravity of shlokas- Ju in 1st for Ta and Ge /for

example/ brings benefits to fifth and seventh house, but not first . It seems

to be easily verifiable.

Thank you for all of this,

Chandrashekhar,

Best Regards,

AnnaChandrashekhar Sharma <boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

Dear Pradeep,

If you remember my posts on various subjects on this list, you will remember

that I have said, it is very easy to ignore that which faces you and

concentrate on only one factor. This leads one to draw wrong conclusions. In

the case of Jupiter in 1st house your question though right, misses out on one

important fact. This is that Jupiter in 1st aspects 5th 7th and 9th. Look at

the names given to these houses and the answer is obvious. I have already said

that Jupiter's aaspect protects whereas Saturn's ( barring exception already

mentioned earlier) harms.

Chandrashekhar.

vijayadas_pradeep

[vijayadas_pradeep ]Saturday, August 30, 2003 2:49 AMTo:

vedic astrologySubject: [vedic astrology] Re: Why is // Jupiter

capable of destroying the house it and Saturn Protects//Dear

ChandrashekarjiThanks for the detailed reply.So i understand jeevaha and

mandaha references are jupiter and saturn respectively.No statement can stand

own its own.What is the circumstance in which this shloka is told by Parashara.

Jupiter placement in first house(in own sign) ofcourse puts one under tremendous

pressure to be just to everyone and react fast to things which one think are not

correct.Thus this placement might help others more, than the self, atleast in

certain aspects(because you have to lose something to balance

the other)But at the same time i should say this gives one great craving for

knowledge and also the blessing named luck.Really helps fifth and ninth

houses.So i feel though there are difficulties due to the strictness,overall it

is a blessing,if in strength plus other factors .The brevity of sanskrit is

amazing.Also your statement ' Guru for Sagittarius' is neutral - keeps me

thinking.Plus Papa for some 6 rashis!Thanks a lotPradeep--- In

vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar Sharma" <boxdel> wrote:>

Dear Pradeep.> It is "Sthana bhrashta karoti jeevaha. sthana rakshati

mandaha.". I have not> said that Jupiter damages all indications of a house.

Astrology is not a> mathematical science, though projected as such by many. The

Astrologer has> to assess the chart as a whole and arrive at the impact the

relative> planetary position will have

on the horoscope as a whole.> > About 2nd house placement of Jupiter , it does

cause problems to 2nd house> unless placed in his own Rasi.About his placement

in 1st house ,as you say> you have own experience.> > I have nowhere said that

nature of Guru is Bhrashtra. I have said that Guru> causes the indication of

the sthana in which he is placed to become> blemished(Bharashtra).I am

emphasising on word Bhrashta, because that is> what the shloka says and its

translation into english is indeed difficult. I> look at astrological

principles from an analytical point of view. I> ,generally, do not try to

associate them with Scriptural stories.> > The reason is that the meaning

depends on one's own interpretation of> scriptures.And believe me they are

capable of different interpretations,> because of brevity of Sanskrit language.

The sanskrit grammar has

undergone> many changes over the thousands of years that it has been in

existence. It> is said " Laksham Vyakaranam Proktam, Chaturlaksham Tu

Jyotisham."> > However some tend to think that the planets have fixed nature (

and they> might have their own experiences to believe such), whereas the

nature> vis-a-vis a Jataka would depend on many factors such as house

ownership,> placement,aspects, Varga positions and so on.> > The theory being

advanced that Jupiter always protects, though attractive> does not explain why

his place ment in 5th in strength is harmful to getting> progeny or 2nd house

placement gives not favourable results. It also tends> to ridicule the Great

parashara who says that Jupiter is said to be "Papa" a> malefic for

Taurus,Gemini,Virgo,Libra,Capricorn and Aquarius.In addition ,> the reason of

his being neutral to his Moola

trikona Rasi Sagitarius as> stated by parashara would be wrong if we accept the

hypothessis of Jupiter> being auscpicious no matter what and where.> > You

could find out whether the principle is right or wrong by applying to> real

life charts. This is the only way to ascertain whether a hypothesis is> correct

or not.> > Hope this helps,> Chandrashekhar.> > > >

vijayadas_pradeep [vijayadas_pradeep]> Friday, August

29, 2003 9:50 PM> vedic astrology> Subject:

[vedic astrology] Re: Why is // Jupiter capable of destroying the> house it and

Saturn Protects//> > > > Dear chandrashekar ji> > Could you kindly quote the

shloka related to guru.This is just out> of curiosity.>

> Then from your mails i have understood that,you are very particular> about

the 'Bhrashta' while speaking about jupiter.> > I believe apart from

understanding the inherent meaning, you might> be having some experience

related to the Guru and Bhrashta,perhaps> with people whom you know well.> >

If you could quote some real life experiences it would become more> useful.>

Because if we consider a person having jupiter in 2nd house - The> person

should have problem related to money> savings,speech,family,and other aspects

reprsntd by 2nd house.How is> this possible for all the aspects?> > I am

totally with you regarding the strictness which guru might> impose on the

houses in which he is placed - at

least regarding> first house (because of own experience,also forming hamsa

yoga).> > But again first house represents ->

physique,appearance,intellect,complexion,happiness etc.But could you> explain

how or why gurus prescence should result in damage of all> these aspects.> >

I dont want to conclude anything for me.I want to wait and> understand what

the sages have said.> > So from your experience and knowledge i am trying to

gain some real> understanding regarding this.> > Also Zoranjis mail was

conveying the message - one should> differentiate the nature of the planets

from other factors.> But i understood from your mails that the very nature of

guru is> resulting in 'Bhrashta'.So how do we relate

this.> > regds & thanks> Pradeep> > --- In

vedic astrology, Zoran Radosavljevic> <ahimsa@N...> wrote:>

> Om Namo Narayanaya,> > Dear Chandrakeshar,> > I see.. I was relying upon a

subject.. This hypotesyse given as> the> > subject " Jupiter capable of

destroying the house it and Saturn> > protects" is highly dubious and should

not be followed...> > Best wishes> > Zoran> >> > Chandrashekhar Sharma

wrote:> >> > > Dear Zoran,> > >> > > You are perhaps misinterpreting

the Sanskrita word Guru with the> word> > > Guru

as planet used in the original post.I was just trying to> clear> > > the

misunderstanding when Guru as in planet was being taken as> Gur as> > > in

the master by explaining the principles from both the> hypothesis.> > >>

> > Regards,> > >> > > Chandrashekhar.> > >> > > -----Original

Message-----> > > Zoran Radosavljevic [ahimsa@N...]> > >

Thursday, August 28, 2003 7:50 AM> > > To:

vedic astrology> > > Re: [vedic astrology] Re:

Why is // Jupiter

capable> of> > > destroying the house it and Saturn Protects//> > >>

> > Om Namo Narayanaya,> > > Dear Chandrakeshar and members,> > >

Sorry for butting in so abrubtly without the following of the> > >

previous mails... It has been experience among my students> and> > >

those who learn Jyotish> > > that some basic confusion is very strong.

One should never> mix> > > the natural tendency of a Graha and

functional role of the> Graha..> >

> Natural benefics as Guru who is the Bhagwan of the chart will> > >

NEVER harm any point but on the contrary will IMPROVE all> points> > >

he touches> > > in the chart by means of his NATURE. However, each graha

has> a> > > role and different states. For instance, such guru may

rule> 8th> > > house which is> > > Randra or the vulnarable

place, the worst house. It is akin> to a> > > good person having a

negative role. E.G> suppose, a good> neigbhour> >

> has to tell you that> > > someone who is dear has passed away... it

will never change> his> > > nature, he will still remain a good

neigbour.. Furthermore,> graha> > > may give bad results even if

benefic if placed in bad> avastas.> > > However, it doesnot again

change its nature.. The malefic> results> > > are given due to graha

bad mood. Thus, if guru gives bad> results, it> > > may give only on

the bases of its rulership of bad houses, or> > > being placed in bad

avastas. It can never change his

natural> > > benefic tendency..> > > Hope this may help> > >

Best wishes> > > Zoran> > >> > > Chandrashekhar Sharma wrote:>

> >> > >> Dear Pradeep,> > >>> > >> The analogy of student/king

is misunderstood. It was an> aside to> > >> the main topic and just to

understand the idea of why the> > >> student's hous e would feel

unconfortable by presence of> Guru.> > >>> >

>> It is well to understand that the results that Jupiter will> give> >

>> in each case would vary depending on his house lordship and> house>

> >> of placement. However the streak of damage(Bhrashta) to the> house>

> >> would remain, though modified.If he house is bad the results> > >>

could actually be good as the bad efects get lessened.> > >>> > >>

Chandrashekhar.> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> -----Original

Message-----> >

>> vijayadas_pradeep [> vijayadas_pradeep ]> > >>

Wednesday, August 27, 2003 2:39 AM> > >> To:

vedic astrology> > >> [vedic astrology] Re:

Why is // Jupiter> capable of> > >> destroying the house it and

Saturn Protects//> > >>> > >> Dear Chandrashekar ji> > >>> > >>

This suggestion is really good.> >

>> I too feel one should learn astrology from the original> textual>

> >> language or its derivatives, after reading your mail.> > >>> >

>> But now after seeing your mail for amol ji,i am still> having> >

>> some> > >> doubts.> > >>> > >> As you have

said, even though your example-regarding> > >> student,guru> >

>> and all cannot be generalised - I am taking that> example to> >

>> clear my> > >> doubts.> > >>> > >> Here i

believe the nature of the students and guru has> to be> > >>

considered - Similarly the king and minister.> > >>> > >> If both

are of the same nature - then no one has to> > >> suffer,'Bhrashta'.>

> >>

1)Similarly if jupiter is placed in a friendly house or> > >> deeptha

or> > >> swakshethra - harmony is not troubled ,under normal> > >>

circumstances.> > >>> > >> 2)But as the lagna or the

individual is subject to> various> > >> influences within the chart

- there can be disharmony.> > >>> > >> Hence do you consider my

point(1) as haaving some> relevance?> >

>> or shld we always give importance only to point (2).> > >>> > >>

Please pardon me from asking questions like this as i> am no> > >>

person> > >> to debate with you - either by knowledge or age.>

> >>> > >> Thanks again> > >> Pradeep> > >>> > >>> >

>>> > >> vedic-> astrology ,

"Chandrashekhar Sharma"> > >> <boxdel> wrote:> > >> >

Dear Pradeep,> > >> > The confusion arises because of the fact that

some> > >> Sanskrita words> > >> loose> > >> >

their import when translated to English. The shloka> does> > >> not

say> > >> Damage or> > >> >

Harm. It says"Bhrashta". The word has different> conotations> > >>

depending on the> > >> > context. Like Sthanabhrashta would be

something like> > >> loosing one's> > >> place> > >>

> whereas Sheelabhrashta would mean one whose moral are> > >>

loose. The> > >> same when> > >> > said to be done by other

would mean harming or>

damaging> > >> other's> > >> modesty.> > >> >

Limitations of the language does sometimes pose a> problem in> > >>

conveyance of> > >> > the corect meaning of sanskrita words. This is

why I> have said> > >> many a times> > >> > that

Astrology is better understood if one learns it> in> > >>

Sanskrit> > >> or Sanskrit> > >> > based Indian languages.>

> >> > Hope this helps,> > >> > Chandrashekhar.> > >>

> > > >> > vijayadas_pradeep [>

vijayadas_pradeep@y ...]> > >> > Tuesday, August 26,

2003 7:38 PM> > >> > To:

vedic astrology> > >> > [vedic astrology]

Re: Why is // Jupiter> capable of> > >> destroying the> > >>

> house it and Saturn Protects//> > >> >> > >> >> > >>

> Dear Chandrashekar ji> > >> >> > >> > I now

understand why Jupiter placement can result in> >

>> difficult> > >> > outcomes.> > >> >> > >>

> Do you mean to say if jupiter is placed in> puthrasthana> > >>

,then the> > >> > individuals can be intelligent but their

children> will> > >> suffer.This is> > >> > just to

make sure, if i have understood your> example.>

> >> >> > >> > But i have one slight difference in opinion>

regarding the> > >> statement -> > >> > 'Jupiter destroys

or harms'.> > >> >> > >> > This statement makes us puzzled

about the meaning> > >> vis-a-vis the> > >> > nature of

Jupiter.> >

>> >> > >> > Because when we say it destroys - it means

jupiter's> > >> action was> > >> > intented towards

destruction.But that is not the> > >> case.Jupiter> > >>

tends> > >> > to stick to principles even during adverse>

situations.This> > >> behaviour> > >>

> makes him unable to protect.But his intention was> never to> > >>

destroy> > >> > nor the behaviour deserves destruction.> > >>

>> > >> > But if you take another example> > >> >

When Ravana abducted Sita ,his behaviour deserved> > >> destruction.>

> >> >> > >> > Though both the

behaviours resulted(ends) in the> > >> destruction of> > >>

> the 'houses',the means are not the same.> > >> >> > >>

> Hence i believe if we say Jupiter is unable to> protect> > >>

the house> > >> in> > >> > which it is placed,during all

circumstances, it> becomes less> > >> ambigue

-> > >> > vis-a-vis its nature,because destruction was never>

intended.> > >> >> > >> > Though the end result is same i

feel there is a> > >> difference in the> > >> > inherent

meaning.> > >> >> > >> > Kindly correct me if i am

wrong.> > >> >> >

>> > Also should one learn something from this lesson -> to> > >>

live in> > >> Kali> > >> > Yuga!> > >> >>

> >> > Thanks and respect> > >> > Pradeep> > >>

>> > >> > vedic-> astrology ,

"Chandrashekhar> > >> Sharma"> > >> > <boxdel>

wrote:> > >> > > Dear Pradeep,> > >> > > Certain

principles are given by the sages and are> found> > >> to be> >

>> true> > >> > in their> > >> > > application.

Having said that, have you observed>

that the> > >> children> > >> > living> > >> >

> with highly intelligent parents rarely suceed?> This is> > >>

what> > >> happens> > >> > with> > >> > >

Jupiter placement in a house. You will also> not ,if one> > >>

wants> >

>> to go> > >> > to> > >> > > Puranas that

Deva's abode was attacked by the> Daanaavas> > >> more> > >>

often> > >> > than> > >> > > other way round, though

Brihaspati resided there.> Devas> > >> invariably> > >>

> got> > >> > > defeated and had to be rescued by Mahadeva,>

Vishnu,> > >> Durga etc.> > >> > Saturn> > >> >

> usually sided with the danavas and his samdharmi> Rahu> > >> was

their> > >> > Senapati.> > >> > > About Saturn being

good in bad houses has to do> with his> >

>> ability to> > >> > protect.> > >> > > He

protects one from bad indications of that> house.> > >> These are>

> >> my> > >> > personal> > >> > > opinions and

other worthies might have different> opinions.> > >> > >

Chandrashekhar.> >

>> > >> > >> > > ----> > >>

> >> > >> > > vedic astrology> > >>

> > Monday, August 25, 2003 08:17:02 PM> > >> > > To:

vedic astrology> > >> > > Subject:

[vedic astrology] Why is // Jupiter> capable of> >

>> destroying> > >> > the house> > >> > > it and

Saturn Protects//> > >> > >> > >> > > Dear Chandrashekar

ji and learned members.> > >> > >> > >> > > I have seen

from the archives ,where you had> > >> participated in> > >>

> > discussions,that Jupiter has the capacity to> destroy> > >>

the bhava> > >> in> > >> > > which> > >> > >

it is placed and Saturn Protects.> > >> > >> > >> > >

Here I have some queries.> > >> > >> > >> > > What is

the reason for a benevolent

planet like> jupiter> > >> to try> > >> and> > >>

> > harm> > >> > > or destroy.> > >> > >> > >>

> > Also i have read that saturn can be good in bad> houses> > >>

(6,8,12> > >> > etc) -> >

>> > > because ,saturn by nature is bad and hence bad> and bad> >

>> > > (negative,negative results in positive) should> bring> >

>> good. But> > >> if> > >> > > saturn> > >>

> > can protect all the houses where it is> placed ,then the> > >>

above> > >> > >

statement> > >> > > loses ist significance.Pls correct if my>

understanding> > >> of this> > >> > > 'negative-negative'

is wrong.> > >> > >> > >> > > When i try to understand

the nature of jupiter -> I feel> > >> it can> > >> test>

> >> > >

the> > >> > > individual always on the path of life,which can be>

> >> painfull and> > >> > hard> > >> > > as>

> >> > > well at times. Why is this? Is it because such an> > >>

individual> > >> can> > >> > > combat> >

>> > > the tests and hardships,as jupiter gives him lots> of> > >>

patience> > >> and> > >> > > other> > >>

> > mental strengths or more concern for others? Am i> right?> > >>

> >> > >> > > But why is it trying to destroy?> > >> >

>> >

>> > > Also doesn't other considerations like> > >>

strength,position etc> > >> come> > >> > > into> > >>

> > play while deciding on this?> > >> > >> > >> >

> If you can explain the inherent nature of> Jupiter, by> > >>

virtue of> >

>> > > which> > >> > > it> > >> > > is trying

to behave like this, it would be> helpful.> > >> > >> > >>

> > Moreover i can give input on my real experiences> (good> > >>

and bad)> > >> > about> > >> > > jupiter placed in

ascendant.> > >> > >> > >> > > Thanks a lot> > >>

> > Pradeep> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >

>> > >> > > Sponsor> > >> > >> > >>

>

>> > >> > >> > >> > > Archives:

vedic-> astrology> > >> > >> > >>

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August 30, 2003

It seems 'age gap' here prevents us from understanding!

People of my age, and older than me, I guess, can easily

see the point in this statement:

'>I have said student /king feels disturbed in presence of the Guru, >him being

a displinaranian regarding study and Dharma."In presence of Guru /master

teacher/ we used to feel a special type of 'discomfort' about what we know and

how much we've learnt, for HE may/is request more. And sure that goes with

pleasure of having HIM with us.

I still feel that 'respect and distance out of respect' for my professors even

though I am no longer 'lower' in my knowledge, at least officially :)I will

stop now,

before I carry this too far,

and say, 'new generations don't have enough respect for anything',

as we all have heard at one time or another!

Regards,

Anna