Astrology is it Vedic ????????????

September 6, 2003

Dear Rajeev NAmaste

It is good that we agree on number of AVedas and their names. Now

lets move ahead by building confidance.

I wrote previous mail to avoid unnecesary debate afterwards. Let it

be clear that I have some references but the problem may arise that

on hindsight you may put it as astronomy and I may not agree to it.

This may cause us to loose the point. So lets be clear what

reference will be Astronomy and what will be Astrology. In other

words, if you fix up domain of Astronomy it will be good for me to

examine myself and then to decide to put them as proof or not.

As far as as Jyotish is concerned,it is shastra of Jyotish. Jyoti is

obtained from celestial bodies.The branch of Jyotish in which we

study physical nature,such as its redius,color,its distance from sun

or earth and its speed of rotation is Astronomy.(right?)

And the branch of jyotish in which its effect is express and

accordingly prayer is given then it is not Astronmy and hence can be

Astrology. Do you agree? Many say that basic of Astrology is that

Celestial Bodies Affect Our Life(CBAOL). If this(CBAOL) is

acknowledge in Vedas then it can be said that vedas have reference

of Astrology. Do you agree with this?

Lets first fix up line of demarcation between Astronomy and

Astrology and then move ahead. But be assured that I do have some

references of Astrology based on CBAOL, in Vedas.

Thanks alot for your Time and Space.

AmolMAndar

vedic astrology, Rajeev Kumar <satpath1>

wrote:

> Namaste Amolmandar Ji,

>

> Yes I also agree with you that there are 4 vedas and these are

Rig,Yajur,Sam and Atharva. I have already told that we have

references to astronomy in Vedas. Please give the references and

after analysis of the same I will get back to you.

>

> Regards

>

> Rajeev

>

> amolmandar <amolmandar> wrote:

> Dear Rajeev Namaste

>

> Before we get into Good or Bad work and its relation to God,I will

> try to show some reference of Jyotish and Astrology in the Vedas.

> For that let me just know will you accept a sukta or Shloka

> describing that the bodies present in the Brahmanda do affect our

> life and we should pray for good effects from them, as proof for

> reference of astrology in any of the four Vedas. Why I am asking

> this is that I have some shlokas from Vedas describing this. The

> reference of NAvagraha directly or indirectly in the Veda will be

> acceptred by you as proof of Astrology in Vedas or not? So if a

> shloka says that we should pray these hevenly bodies and these

> bodies should give us Sukha and Shanti then that should be more

than

> enough as proof or not. Or you want all shlokas present in

> Astrological Granthas to be present in Vedas? Let me know this

first

> and then I will produce for you more than one proof of Jyotish

i.e.

> astrological and not astromonical reference in Vedas.

>

> One last thing be very clear that Vedas means 1)Rigveda 2)

Yajurveda

> 3)SamaVeda 4) Atharvaveda.

>

> If you agree on this, please let me know.

>

> Thanks a lot for your Time and Sapce.

>

> AmolMAndar

>

> vedic astrology, Rajeev Kumar

> wrote:

> > Namaste AmolMAndar Ji,

> >

> > If every work is work of God then are adulteration, telling

lies ,

> doing fraud with somebody etc. are also work of God. If we accept

> this then God becomes an adulterator, lier etc.

> >

> > Vedic God does not expect the help of anybody in doing his work

> because he is all powerful , omniscient. The God which expects

help

> from anybody is not God but a humanbeing or a fraud.

> >

> > Regards

> >

> > Rajeev

> >

> > amolmandar <amolmandar> wrote:

> > Dear Rajeev Namaste

> >

> > Thanks for the wonderful link.

> >

> > >But here the Astrologers have taken the work of God in their

> hand,

> > >is it not against Vedas and Gita ????

> >

> > Dont you feel that every work is 'work' of God. Why to single

out

> > Astrologers? Moreover, what is wrong in helping God?

> >

> > Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

> >

> > AmolMAndar

> >

> > vedic astrology, Rajeev Kumar

> <satpath1>

> > wrote:

> > > Namaste,

> > >

> > > Astrology is it Vedic ? or we are using the name Vedas just to

> > brand it as a Vedic science.

> > >

> > > I am of the view that Astrology is not supported by Vedas . In

> > ManuSmriti it is written that whoever disobeys/disregard Vedas

is

> an

> > athiest. So those books which are not in accordance with Vedas

are

> > anti Vedic.

> > >

> > > I am sure that all people on this forum are not blind and it

> is

> > for them only I am raising this question.

> > >

> > > I have following point to support my views

> > >

> > > Vedas , Gita talk at length about the philosophy of KARMA

> (Action)

> > and says that you have right to do the action only and result is

> in

> > my(God) hand. But here the Astrologers have taken the work of

God

> in

> > their hand, is it not against Vedas and Gita ????

> > >

> > > In Vedas and other authoritative scriptures of ancient Vedic

> > Rishis no where it is written that sun moon planets etc do the

> acts

> > that astrologers generally talk about.

> > >

> > > Offcourse Vedas and other vedic scriptures support all the

true

> > sciences like Astronomy but not even a single word we have found

> on

> > Astrology. If you came across any then please give the reference.

> > >

> > > Moreover by applying tests of truth the truthfulness of

> Astrology

> > is not proved. The tests of truth are as follows. I am making a

> copy

> > and paste from the following site about the ' Tests of truth '

> > > http://www.vjsingh.com/chapterthree.html#8

> > >

> > > THE FIVE TESTS OF TRUTH

> > >

> > > The truth of every thing that is learnt or taught should be

> > carefully examined by the following five tests:-

> > >

> > > The Veda and nature of God - All that conforms to the

> teachings

> > of the Vedas, nature, attributes and characteristics of God is

> > right, the reverse is wrong.

> > > Laws of Nature - All that tallies with laws of nature is

> true,

> > the reverse untrue; e.g., the statement that a child is born

> without

> > the sexual union of its parents, being opposed to the laws of

> nature

> > can never be true.

> > > The practice and teachings of A'ptaas, -i.e., pious,

> truthful,

> > unprejudiced, honest, and learned men. All that is unopposed to

> > their practice and teachings is acceptable and the reverse is

> > unacceptable.

> > > The purity and conviction of one's own soul. - What is good

> for

> > you is good for the world. What is painful to you is painful to

> > others. This ought to be the guiding principle of one's conduct

> > towards others.

> > > Eight kinds of evidence

> > >

> > > Direct Cognizance.

> > > Inference.

> > > Analogy.

> > > Testimony.

> > > History.

> > > Deduction.

> > > Possibility.

> > > Non-existence or Negation.

> > >

> > > Direct Cognizance (Praatyaksha) is that kind of knowledge,

> > which is the result of direct contact of the five senses with

> their

> > objects,* of the mind (faculty or organ of attention) with the

> > senses, and of the soul with mind. NYAAYA Shaastraa 1: i, 4.

> > > But this knowledge must not be that of the relation of

> words

> > with the things signified, as of the word "water" with the fluid

> > called "water", For example, you ask your servant to bring you

> some

> > water. He brings water, puts it before you, and says : 'Here is

> > water, Sir.' Now, what you and your servant see is not the

> > word "water" but the object signified by it. So ou have the

direct

> > knowledge of the object called water. But the knowledge

> > >

> > > This knowledge must not be of temporary or transient

> > character, i.e., not the product of observation under

unfavourable

> > circumstances; for example, a person saw something at night and

> took

> > it for a man , but when it was daylight he found out his mistake

> and

> > knew that it was not a man, but a pillar. Now, his first

> impression

> > of the thing was of a temporary or transient nature, which gave

> > place to permanent knowledge later on, when the true nature of

the

> > thing was revealed in the light.

> > > It should be free from all elements of doubt, and be

> certain

> > in character. For example, you see a river from a distance and

> > say: "Is it water there or white clothes spread out to dry?" Or

> take

> > another example, you see a man from a distance and say: Is it

Deva

> > Datta standing there or Yajna Datta?" Now, as long as you are in

> > doubt and consequently not sure about a thing you observe, your

> > knowledge cannot be called Pratyaksha (Direct Cognizance). To be

> > that the element of doubt must be absolutely eliminated from it.

> > > Briefly therefore, that knowledge alone is said to be Direct

> > Cognizance, which is not the outcome of the relation of name

with

> > the object signified by it, nor gained under circumstances

> > unfavourable for observation or experiment (Hence transient in

> > character) nor into which any element of doubt enters

> > >

> > > Anumaana - inference - Literally it means that which follows

> > direct cognizance. Two things have been observed to exist

together

> > at some time and place, when on some other occasion, one of the

> woe

> > is observed, the other, i.e., the unknown can be inferred.* For

> > instance, you see a child and you at once infer that he must

have

> > had parents. Again, seeing the smoke issuing from behind a hill

> you

> > infer the existence of fire. You infer the previous incarnation

of

> > the soul form observing unequal joy and sorrow in this world at

> the

> > present moment.

> > > Inference is of three kinds:-

> > >

> > > Purvavat - is one , in which you reason from cause to

effect,

> > e.g., the inference of coming rain form the sight of clouds; or,

> > again, you see a wedding and naturally infer that some day the

> > wedded couple will have children. Or, again, you see students

> > engaged in the pursuit of knowledge and you infer that some day

> they

> > will become men of learning.

> > >

> > > Sheshavat - inference is one, in which you reason from effects

> to

> > causes. Examples:- You see a flood in the river, and infer that

it

> > must have rained on the mountain from which the river issues.

> Again,

> > you see a child and at once infer that the child must have had a

> > father. Again, you see this world and infer the existence of the

> > Spiritual cause - the Creator, as well as of a Material cause -

> the

> > elementary matter. Or, again, take another example. When you se

a

> > man in pleasure and pain, you at once infer that he must have

done

> a

> > virtuous or sinful deed before, since you have noticed that the

> > consequence of a sinful act is pain, and that of a virtuous

deed,

> > pleasure.

> > >

> > > Aaamaanyatodrishata - is that kind of inference, in which

there

> is

> > no relation of cause and effect between the known datum and the

> > thing to be inferred, but there is some kind of similarity

between

> > the two. For example, you know that no one can get another place

> > without moving from the first, and hence, if you find a person

at

> a

> > certain place, you can easily infer that he must have come to

the

> > latter place by moving from the first.

> > >

> > > Upamaana - Analogy - is the knowledge of a thing from its

> likeness

> > to another. The thing which is required to be known is called

> > Saadhya, and tha which becomes the means of this knowledge from

> some

> > kind of likeness between the two is called Saadhana

> > > Examples: - a man says to his servant : "Go and fetch Vishnu

> > Mittra." The latter answers that he does not know him, as he has

> > never seen him before. Thereupon the master says :- You know

Deva

> > Datta, don't you?" Upon the servant's answering in the

> affirmative,

> > his master continues: "Well, Vishnu Mittra is just like Deva

> Datta."

> > So the servant went out to find Vishnu Mittra. As he was passing

> > through a street, he saw a man very much like Deva Datta, and

> > thought that, thta man must be Vishnu Mittra, and forthwith

> brought

> > him to his master.

> > > Or, take another example. You want to know what a Yak is.

Well,

> > some one tells you, it is just like an ox. Next time you go to a

> > jungle and happen to see an animal very much like an ox, you at

> once

> > know that it is the Yak you asked your friend about. Now this

kind

> > of knowledge, i.e., knowledge of Vishnu Mittra from his likeness

> to

> > Deva Datta and of a Yak from its likeness to an ox is

> calledUpamaana

> > or knowledge by analogy. The words Vishnu Mittra and Yak are

> called

> > Saadhya, whilst Deva Datta and ox are called Saadhana, in the

> above

> > two instances.

> > >

> > > Shabda - Testimony (literally, word) - "The word of an A'pt

> > (altruistic teacher) is called Shabda." NYAAYA Shaastra 1:,i, 7.

> > > An A'pt is a person who is a thorough scholar, we versed in

all

> > the sciences and philosophies, physical and spiritual, is

> virtuous,

> > truthful, active, free from passions and desires, imbued with

love

> > for others, and who is an altruistic teacher of humanity solely

> > actuated with the desire of benefiting the world by his

knowledge,

> > experience and convictions. God being the truest and greatest of

> all

> > A'ptas, HIs word the Veda is also included in shabda

(Testimony).

> > >

> > > Itihaas - History - is that which tells us that such and such

a

> > person was so and so, he did such and such a thing. In other

> words,

> > Itihaas is the history of a country or the biography of a

person.

> > NYAAYA Shaastra 2: 2,1.[The experience of the past recorded in

> > history can be applied to solve many a difficult question of the

> > day. - Tr.

> > >

> > > Arthaapatti - Conclusion or deduction. - It is a conclusion

> which

> > naturally follows from the statement of a fact; for instance,

one

> > says to another: "Rain falls from clouds" or " and effect flows

> from

> > a cause." The natural conclusion that can be drawn from the

above

> > statement is: "There can be no rain when there are no clouds,"

> > or "no effects follow when a cause does not exist."

> > >

> > > Sambhava - possibility. - When you hear a thing, the first

thing

> > that enters your mind is whether such and such a thing is

> possible.

> > Anything that runs counter to the laws of nature is not

possible,

> > and hence it can never be true; for example, if you are told

that

> a

> > child was born without parents, such and such a person raised

the

> > dead to life again, or made stones float on the sea, lifted

> > mountains, broke the moon into pieces, was God incarnate, or saw

> > horns on the head of a man, or solemnized the marriage of a

couple

> > born of sterile mother. You could at once know that it could not

> > have possibly happened, being opposed to the laws of Nature.

That

> > alone is possible which is in conformity with the laws of

nature.

> > >

> > > Abhaava - Absence or Negation.- You infer the existence of a

> thing

> > in some other place from its absence from the place where you

were

> > told you find it; for instance, a gentleman said to his man: "Go

> and

> > bring the elephant from the elephant-house." He went there but

> found

> > that the elephant was not there. He naturally conclude that he

> must

> > be somewhere near about. So he went out and looked about for the

> > elephant and found him not very far from its proper place and

> > brought him to his master.

> > >

> > > These eight kinds of evidence have been briefly described.

Their

> > number can be reduced to four fi History be included under

> > Testimony, and Deduction, Possibility, and Negation under

> > Inference.*

> > > It is only by means of these five criteria that a man can

> > ascertain what is right or wrong and not otherwise

> > >

> > > If you test Astrology against these tests it proves to be a

> fraud.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> > > Rajeev

> > >

> >

> > Sponsor

> >

> > Group info: vedic-

astrology/info.html

> >

> > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-

>

> >

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> >

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> >

>

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>

September 6, 2003

Respected Members,

After reading so many emails on this topic yesterday night, here are

my humble ideas and thoughts (it took me a long time to reach these

conclusions. In short there is nothing called perfect and logical….

its all a matter of your beliefs only)

1. Palentological evidence indicates that life started as bacteria

type organisms, some 4.2 billion years ago and another billion years

life existed in deep sea bottoms only in the form of ancient sea

plants and ancient fish. It took another billion years before the

fish evolved into amphibians and reptiles. Eventually after more than

3.5 billion years of evolution, Crocodiles and Dinosaurs came some

240 million years ago. The age of dinosaurs was from 225 million

years ago to 65 million years ago. Crocodiles came before dinosaurs

and they are still here. There is no sign of man until some 10

million years ago when the Cro-Magnon man came and the modern man

(homo sapiens) has come just a million years ago only. So more than 4

billion years have passed, yet there was no sign of man on this

earth. There is not a single species of man on earth when the huge

gigantic dinosaurs ruled the continents, which were all fused

together and ultimately drifted apart due to various forces working

underneath the earth's surface. The history of written language in

ancient civilization shows that they started around 6000 years ago or

say 6000 BC. So it would appear very illogical that the God handed

the Vedas to the First Man at the beginning of the Creation. Its all

a matter of one's belief only. Palentological evidence has shown

existence of huge dinosaur bones, skeletons and body structures, yet

we are still struggling to find the lost palaces and temples of Great

Lord Rama's era, which supposedly happened in tretayuga some 2

million years ago! So how come we can find dinosaur structures almost

on daily basis around the world thesedays, yet not able to locate our

great ancient civilizations which are of more recent history. Yet

everyone has acknowledged the physical evidence of Mahabharata war

and Lord Krishna's existence has been verified beyond doubt since it

happened just 5000 years ago!

2. Linking Everything: So if you link the handing over of Vedas by

God to the First Man at the beginning of civilization and yet history

of written languages is just 6000 to 8000 years old, then it would

appear that God handed over Vedas to Man(when the first man came)

about one million years. At the same time the ancient man is just

learning how to grow crops, develop animal farms, build houses etc.,

He has no idea about languages and here God gives him the great Vedas

in a complicated language called Sanskrit: So what is the man

supposed to do (All this appears so humorous and illogical).. Stop

all his work and start learning Sanskrit grammar or start developing

sanskrit grammar, when he has no idea what languages are . His

primary concern is to get next meal for himself and his dependents.

Heavy Rains, hot sun and other types of offensive climatic changes

are affecting this man and yet he is supposed to study these

documents from God. I doubt if such a thing happened and even if

there was one in 40 million chance of such a thing happening, then

that man would have thrown away those papers on one corner and

continue with his usual work as if nothing had happened. In nutshell

it's all a matter of belief only.

3. The Vedas are the Great Truth in their own regard and

palentological evidence exists undeniably as another great truth. So

these two great streams do not mix at all. Obviously the various

developments of Satayuga and Tretayuga (Hinduism) either did not

happen at all or they happened on another earth which might have been

identical to this earth. Then all such developments were recorded in

Sanskrit by great ancient rishis, including Vedas, and brought to

this earth , when man (on this earth) was intelligent enough to

understand and acknowledge them. So Devas and Asuras are/were another

men from another earth/planet. So basically when we pray to

God/Devatas/Devi we are praying to great powerful men and women who

do not reside on this earth. Again this is one more logic, which you

may like very much or may not agree at all.. when we chant the

mantras for various Devatas/Devis, we have tremendous confidence and

belief that our voices are reaching the heavenly abodes of those

powerful forces, who exist billions of miles above earth, when in

reality our voices cannot be heard by people who are just few feet

away from us. Yet we belief that fire god and/or the mantras connect

us to those great gods and goddesses somehow. So its all a matter of

faith and we do not like to even have a single doubt about this

phenomenon of chanting mantras and their effects. Also for all the

greatness of Vedas, various western world analysts consider them as

perfect literature type work only and they have so many websites

dedicated to explaining and translating Vedas and some even think

they are identical to bible and other scriptures. So its their belief

and cannot be altered by us.

4. So obviously God allowed the evolution of life to continue on this

earth for 4 billion years and he did not bother much about dinosaurs

etc., until man come and then God decided to send the great knowledge

of Vedas to this earth. Or you can conveniently say that some

mysterious developments happened after dinosaurs left earth 65

million years ago to the time when modern man came, some one million

years ago. And we do not have the exact sequence of those mysterious

developments. All we know is that Mahabharata happened 5000 years ago

and that India was a slave nation for almost 2000 years until 1947

(and the harassed and the few proud hindus struggled to keep

important documents form invading forces for such a long time and now

only some great books have been published in last 100 years). So

there is very little that we know about our own civilization(which is

supported by history), not to talk about what happened at the

beginning of creation.

So if you belief that astrology does not exist in Vedas, then you are

right since its your strong belief. But if others strongly believe

that Parsara and Jamini were great Rishis and founders of astrology

and that astrology is a great science then they are also right since

its their strong belief. After all whenever we pray to the Divine

forces we strongly belief that they are great and can help us. We all

take a small / gigantic leap of faith everyday, in every sphere of

life.

Also this is my first and probably last email on this topic…you may

agree with the contents or may not agree at all..its up to your

beliefs…

Thanks and Regards.

RMK.

September 7, 2003

Belief is based upon evidences, whereas faith is blind and require no evidence.

If we go by what you say and start believing that sand is sweet and eat a

spoonful of sand , then is it going to appear sweet in taste? if not then your

statement is wrong, if yes then how long you can keep on eating sand as sugar.

I know only one thing that whether you eat poison knowingly or unknowingly its

going to have bad effect on your body.

Now coming over to origin of Vedas. I said that Vedas are there from the very

begining of mankind. I have following points to support this.

Had God not given Vedas nobody could have become learned. You may say that

humans have instinctive knowledge and could become knowledgable on their

own.Now I say that had it been possible then why still in different parts of

even India as well as world we see uncivilized people who remain nude, they

live and act like animals only.Had god not given these people the instinctive

knowledge?

So what it proves , it proves that instinctive knowledge cannot be increased or

decreased, instead the knowledge that is acquired from somebody more civilized

makes the uncivilized civilized.

God gave the Vedas in the begining based upon which you , me and the whole world become civilized.

More on this issue can be read from.

www.vjsingh.com/books.html

Think over it twice before making any assumption.

Regards

Rajeev

Rajesh Mohan Kumaria <rajeshkumaria2000 > wrote:

Respected Members, After reading so many emails on this topic yesterday night,

here are my humble ideas and thoughts (it took me a long time to reach these

conclusions. In short there is nothing called perfect and logical…. its all a

matter of your beliefs only)1. Palentological evidence indicates that life

started as bacteria type organisms, some 4.2 billion years ago and another

billion years life existed in deep sea bottoms only in the form of ancient sea

plants and ancient fish. It took another billion years before the fish evolved

into amphibians and reptiles. Eventually after more than 3.5 billion years of

evolution, Crocodiles and Dinosaurs came some 240 million years ago. The age of

dinosaurs was from 225 million years ago to 65 million years ago. Crocodiles

came before dinosaurs and they are still here. There

is no sign of man until some 10 million years ago when the Cro-Magnon man came

and the modern man(homo sapiens) has come just a million years ago only. So

more than 4 billion years have passed, yet there was no sign of man on this

earth. There is not a single species of man on earth when the huge gigantic

dinosaurs ruled the continents, which were all fused together and ultimately

drifted apart due to various forces working underneath the earth's surface. The

history of written language in ancient civilization shows that they started

around 6000 years ago or say 6000 BC. So it would appear very illogical that

the God handed the Vedas to the First Man at the beginning of the Creation. Its

all a matter of one's belief only. Palentological evidence has shown existence

of huge dinosaur bones, skeletons and body structures, yet we are still

struggling to find the lost palaces and temples of Great Lord Rama's era, which

supposedly

happened in tretayuga some 2 million years ago! So how come we can find dinosaur

structures almost on daily basis around the world thesedays, yet not able to

locate our great ancient civilizations which are of more recent history. Yet

everyone has acknowledged the physical evidence of Mahabharata war and Lord

Krishna's existence has been verified beyond doubt since it happened just 5000

years ago! 2. Linking Everything: So if you link the handing over of Vedas by

God to the First Man at the beginning of civilization and yet history of

written languages is just 6000 to 8000 years old, then it would appear that God

handed over Vedas to Man(when the first man came) about one million years. At

the same time the ancient man is just learning how to grow crops, develop

animal farms, build houses etc., He has no idea about languages and here God

gives him the great Vedas in a complicated language called Sanskrit: So what is

the man supposed to do (All this appears so humorous and illogical).. Stop all

his work and start learning Sanskrit grammar or start developing sanskrit

grammar, when he has no idea what languages are . His primary concern is to get

next meal for himself and his dependents. Heavy Rains, hot sun and other types

of offensive climatic changes are affecting this man and yet he is supposed to

study these documents from God. I doubt if such a thing happened and even if

there was one in 40 million chance of such a thing happening, then that man

would have thrown away those papers on one corner and continue with his usual

work as if nothing had happened. In nutshell it's all a matter of belief only.

3. The Vedas are the Great Truth in their own regard and palentological

evidence exists undeniably as another great truth. So these two great streams

do not mix at all. Obviously the various

developments of Satayuga and Tretayuga (Hinduism) either did not happen at all

or they happened on another earth which might have been identical to this

earth. Then all such developments were recorded in Sanskrit by great ancient

rishis, including Vedas, and brought to this earth , when man (on this earth)

was intelligent enough to understand and acknowledge them. So Devas and Asuras

are/were another men from another earth/planet. So basically when we pray to

God/Devatas/Devi we are praying to great powerful men and women who do not

reside on this earth. Again this is one more logic, which you may like very

much or may not agree at all.. when we chant the mantras for various

Devatas/Devis, we have tremendous confidence and belief that our voices are

reaching the heavenly abodes of those powerful forces, who exist billions of

miles above earth, when in reality our voices cannot be heard by people who are

just few feet

away from us. Yet we belief that fire god and/or the mantras connect us to those

great gods and goddesses somehow. So its all a matter of faith and we do not

like to even have a single doubt about this phenomenon of chanting mantras and

their effects. Also for all the greatness of Vedas, various western world

analysts consider them as perfect literature type work only and they have so

many websites dedicated to explaining and translating Vedas and some even think

they are identical to bible and other scriptures. So its their belief and cannot

be altered by us. 4. So obviously God allowed the evolution of life to continue

on this earth for 4 billion years and he did not bother much about dinosaurs

etc., until man come and then God decided to send the great knowledge of Vedas

to this earth. Or you can conveniently say that some mysterious developments

happened after dinosaurs left earth 65 million years ago

to the time when modern man came, some one million years ago. And we do not have

the exact sequence of those mysterious developments. All we know is that

Mahabharata happened 5000 years ago and that India was a slave nation for

almost 2000 years until 1947(and the harassed and the few proud hindus

struggled to keep important documents form invading forces for such a long time

and now only some great books have been published in last 100 years). So there

is very little that we know about our own civilization(which is supported by

history), not to talk about what happened at the beginning of creation. So if

you belief that astrology does not exist in Vedas, then you are right since its

your strong belief. But if others strongly believe that Parsara and Jamini were

great Rishis and founders of astrology and that astrology is a great science

then they are also right since its their strong belief. After all whenever

we pray to the Divine forces we strongly belief that they are great and can help

us. We all take a small / gigantic leap of faith everyday, in every sphere of

life.Also this is my first and probably last email on this topic…you may agree

with the contents or may not agree at all..its up to your beliefs…Thanks and

Regards. RMK.Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info:

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September 7, 2003

Dear Rajeev ji

Whenever one asks questions and sticks to his/her beliefs which are

based upon evidence or not, one opens the doors for cross questions

from others also. In your case you are so adamant upon the fact that

God gave Vedas in the beginning of the creation to ancient rishis in

Sanskrit and that Vedas helped man to become civilized. So I am not

directly challenging you since this is your belief(based upon

evidence or not, it does not matter). Actually I do not understand

your agenda, is it to spread the knowledge of Vedas or just criticize

genuine hindu astrology, juts for the sake of criticism only. We all

know that there are lots of fraud astrologers who have given a bad

name to Jyotish and Swami Dayanand did a tremendous amount of work to

stop all such frauds and spread the real knowledge. But the real

hindu astrology is another truth and not everything is fraud.

Now here are some of the challenging questions, arising from your

stand that Vedas helped the man become civilized and that they came

at the beginning of creation(perhaps you did not read my email

seriously): Where are the structures and evidences of the existence

of Satayuga and Tretayuga today? Show me the evidence. Why does God

allow the earth to be ruled by huge creatures like dinosaurs and why

is there no sign of man for more that four billion years after the

earth has been created? Why does god not interfere in the process of

evolution and start everything systematically form the beginning ,

with intelligent men and women… why do the human beings have to live

in forests as cave man for centuries and why are they deprived of

such ancient genuine knowledge of Vedas for such a long time? When

extensive industrialization and infrastructure development has

happened in the western world (and then followed by identical

development in the eastern world), without Vedas reaching them, then

how can we claim that the Vedas helped them?

Some say Lord Rama existed while others debate that this is yet

another perfect literature type work by RIshi Balmiki and ironically

others insist that Sage VedVyasa wrote the Mahabharata story in

Sanskrit to motivate and direct the people towards a better moral

life..but we all have evidence of the existence of Lord Krishna and

hence we do not challenge Bhagavad Gita or The MahaBharata . For all

your contentions, Vedas can be just perfect literature work of

ancient rishis, who acquired this knowledge by tapasaya and only

after they had invented the Sanskrit grammar. There is no other

logic here. Why will god discriminate against other civilizations and

give this knowledge to hindus only?

Also everything written in Sanskrit is not sacred and it can be work

of fiction also. The proof of astrological shlokas wriiten in

Sanskrit lies in real life developments, since astrology is really

based upon astronomy and the predictions are based upon knowledge

acquired by the great rishis by their tapasayas. If you want to learn

astrology, you may get proofs /real evidence in the form of actual

real life developments. Ofcourse Karma is required for every real

life development and astrology merely indicates the shape of things

to come in the future(likely futuristic developments…I have seen

rajyogas and daridara yogas happening in my life

simultaneously /alternately and it took me 16 long years to really

believe in it… I also did not use to believe in astrology just like

yourself..also astrology is not meant to be taken as fatalistic in

nature nor every rajyoga automatically guaranteed.. some effort has

to be made in all cases)

How come ancient roman, greek and egyptian civilizations continued to

exist for centuries without the Vedas reaching them? The ancient

civilizations continued to build houses, irrigation structures,

agriculture and cattle farms…you may say vedic civilization was in

existence in India but what about other civilizations which developed

such identical framing techniques using their intelligence , without

the knowledge of Vedas? you see even anyone can criticize any stand

endlessly and you will no be able to produce any concrete evidence,

except referring to books, websites and works of great Swamis.

Ultimately it will be your word against ours and we may both choose

to agree on nothing forever… So let us finish the debate here, since

I really do not know your real agenda. What's your real point here?

If you want to create an anti-jyotish group, then you are free to do

so, why use this platform to spread your views?

All the best and Namaskar, RMK.

vedic astrology, Rajeev Kumar <satpath1>

wrote:

> Namaste Rajesh Mohan Ji,

>

> Belief is based upon evidences, whereas faith is blind and require

no evidence.

>

> If we go by what you say and start believing that sand is sweet

and eat a spoonful of sand , then is it going to appear sweet in

taste? if not then your statement is wrong, if yes then how long you

can keep on eating sand as sugar. I know only one thing that whether

you eat poison knowingly or unknowingly its going to have bad effect

on your body.

>

> Now coming over to origin of Vedas. I said that Vedas are there

from the very begining of mankind. I have following points to support

this.

>

> Had God not given Vedas nobody could have become learned. You may

say that humans have instinctive knowledge and could become

knowledgable on their own.Now I say that had it been possible then

why still in different parts of even India as well as world we see

uncivilized people who remain nude, they live and act like animals

only.Had god not given these people the instinctive knowledge?

>

> So what it proves , it proves that instinctive knowledge cannot be

increased or decreased, instead the knowledge that is acquired from

somebody more civilized makes the uncivilized civilized.

>

> God gave the Vedas in the begining based upon which you , me and

the whole world become civilized.

>

> More on this issue can be read from.

>

> www.vjsingh.com/books.html

>

> Think over it twice before making any assumption.

>

> Regards

>

> Rajeev

>

September 7, 2003

My belief on Vedas as word of God is supported by following evidences

1) All Vedic Rishis (Altruistic teacher)are of this view.

2) Vedas are in Sanskrit language , which is a universal language and does not

belong to any country. Moreover it is in the root of all languages of the world.

3) When God has given us all the material elements(like fruits,vegatables,water

etc.) then I ask you is there anything more blissful than true knowledge. So

God gave us knowledge in the form of Vedas and this justifies the reason of

giving us the brain, mind and other knowledge senses.

4) Vedas are always up to date. There is not even a single mantra in Vedas which

is not a universal truth. There are no historical evidence of any kind or of any

race in Vedas.Because history is written afterthe execution of events, it proves

that bible, koran ,Gita,ramayana etc are no more than history books.

5) God gave it in the begining because had he given it after few thousand years

then those humans who were born during this time would had remain uneducated

and uncivilized and the Gods justice will come into question.

What it proves is that Vedas are there right from the begining of mankind.

6) Moreover Vedas are also regarded as oldest books in human library(regarded as

more than 4000yrs old by so called historians), you said that man was evolving

then how it is possible for the man of those times to create books of such

great repute in those times ?????

more on this can be read from Light of Truth by Swami Dayananda at

www.vjsingh.com/books.html

Regards

RajeevRajesh Mohan Kumaria <rajeshkumaria2000 > wrote:

Dear Rajeev jiWhenever one asks questions and sticks to his/her beliefs which

are based upon evidence or not, one opens the doors for cross questions from

others also. In your case you are so adamant upon the fact that God gave Vedas

in the beginning of the creation to ancient rishis in Sanskrit and that Vedas

helped man to become civilized. So I am not directly challenging you since this

is your belief(based upon evidence or not, it does not matter). Actually I do

not understand your agenda, is it to spread the knowledge of Vedas or just

criticize genuine hindu astrology, juts for the sake of criticism only. We all

know that there are lots of fraud astrologers who have given a bad name to

Jyotish and Swami Dayanand did a tremendous amount of work to stop all such

frauds and spread the real knowledge. But the real hindu astrology

is another truth and not everything is fraud. Now here are some of the

challenging questions, arising from your stand that Vedas helped the man become

civilized and that they came at the beginning of creation(perhaps you did not

read my email seriously): Where are the structures and evidences of the

existence of Satayuga and Tretayuga today? Show me the evidence. Why does God

allow the earth to be ruled by huge creatures like dinosaurs and why is there

no sign of man for more that four billion years after the earth has been

created? Why does god not interfere in the process of evolution and start

everything systematically form the beginning , with intelligent men and women…

why do the human beings have to live in forests as cave man for centuries and

why are they deprived of such ancient genuine knowledge of Vedas for such a

long time? When extensive industrialization and infrastructure development has

happened in the western world (and then followed by identical development in the

eastern world), without Vedas reaching them, then how can we claim that the

Vedas helped them? Some say Lord Rama existed while others debate that this is

yet another perfect literature type work by RIshi Balmiki and ironically

others insist that Sage VedVyasa wrote the Mahabharata story in Sanskrit to

motivate and direct the people towards a better moral life..but we all have

evidence of the existence of Lord Krishna and hence we do not challenge

Bhagavad Gita or The MahaBharata . For all your contentions, Vedas can be just

perfect literature work of ancient rishis, who acquired this knowledge by

tapasaya and only after they had invented the Sanskrit grammar. There is no

other logic here. Why will god discriminate against other civilizations and

give this knowledge to hindus only? Also everything written

in Sanskrit is not sacred and it can be work of fiction also. The proof of

astrological shlokas wriiten in Sanskrit lies in real life developments, since

astrology is really based upon astronomy and the predictions are based upon

knowledge acquired by the great rishis by their tapasayas. If you want to learn

astrology, you may get proofs /real evidence in the form of actual real life

developments. Ofcourse Karma is required for every real life development and

astrology merely indicates the shape of things to come in the future(likely

futuristic developments…I have seen rajyogas and daridara yogas happening in my

life simultaneously /alternately and it took me 16 long years to really believe

in it… I also did not use to believe in astrology just like yourself..also

astrology is not meant to be taken as fatalistic in nature nor every rajyoga

automatically guaranteed.. some effort has to be made in all

cases)How come ancient roman, greek and egyptian civilizations continued to

exist for centuries without the Vedas reaching them? The ancient civilizations

continued to build houses, irrigation structures, agriculture and cattle

farms…you may say vedic civilization was in existence in India but what about

other civilizations which developed such identical framing techniques using

their intelligence , without the knowledge of Vedas? you see even anyone can

criticize any stand endlessly and you will no be able to produce any concrete

evidence, except referring to books, websites and works of great Swamis.

Ultimately it will be your word against ours and we may both choose to agree on

nothing forever… So let us finish the debate here, since I really do not know

your real agenda. What's your real point here? If you want to create an

anti-jyotish group, then you are free to do so, why use this platform to spread

your

views?All the best and Namaskar, RMK.vedic astrology,

Rajeev Kumar <satpath1> wrote:> Namaste Rajesh Mohan Ji,> > > Belief is

based upon evidences, whereas faith is blind and require no evidence.> > If we

go by what you say and start believing that sand is sweet and eat a spoonful of

sand , then is it going to appear sweet in taste? if not then your statement is

wrong, if yes then how long you can keep on eating sand as sugar. I know only

one thing that whether you eat poison knowingly or unknowingly its going to

have bad effect on your body.> > Now coming over to origin of Vedas. I said

that Vedas are there from the very begining of mankind. I have following points

to support this.> > Had God not given Vedas nobody could have become learned.

You may say that humans have

instinctive knowledge and could become knowledgable on their own.Now I say that

had it been possible then why still in different parts of even India as well as

world we see uncivilized people who remain nude, they live and act like animals

only.Had god not given these people the instinctive knowledge?> > So what it

proves , it proves that instinctive knowledge cannot be increased or decreased,

instead the knowledge that is acquired from somebody more civilized makes the

uncivilized civilized.> > God gave the Vedas in the begining based upon which

you , me and the whole world become civilized.> > More on this issue can be

read from.> > www.vjsingh.com/books.html> > Think over it twice before making

any assumption.> > Regards> > Rajeev> >Archives:

vedic astrologyGroup info:

vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light

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September 8, 2003

JyothiSaikumar <astrossk (AT) coolgoose (DOT) com> wrote:

Dear Rajiv,

Sorry for putting this bluntly.

What are you trying to prove?

What if Vedas do not support Astrology. We still want to learn it, and as we

know, we are all in the right forum to learn the divine science.

If your idea is to distract people by creating non-existent controversies, you

better find some other group.

If you find some people on this list buying your arguement and want to argue

with you, I think you are better of arguing off the list, instead of flooding

the list with your junk mail.

If the Gurus think it is pertinent material for learning Vedic Astrology they

would share with us anyway.

Hope you understand my point. It is plain and simple --> If you are not

contributing to increase the knowledge of Astrology(Vedic or non-Vedic

-according to you), we are not happy reading your mails here.

I request Guru Narasimha to moderate more closely and try to restrict people who

are trying to distract the attention of the students.

Sorry if I have hurt anyone's feelings with my mail.

Regards,

Sai

Rajeev Kumar <satpath1 >Date:

2003/09/04 22:36:00vedic astrologyCc: Re:

[vedic astrology] Re: Astrology is it Vedic ????????????

Namaste Hari Ji,

Let's first resolve the main issue that whether Astrology( As a concept of fate

) has references in Vedas or not ?

Other issues will be resolved later.

Yes Karma /Dharma, atman, god are vedic concepts.

Regards

Rajeev

onlyhari <onlyhari > wrote:

||Om Brihaspataye Namah||Dear Rajeev,Your position is that Jyotish refers to

astronomy and not astrology. That is a point to be considered.However I am

interested in knowing how did you prove that Astrology fails the tests of truth

given in your email. You have just stated the same without proof. Since you have

read or trying to understand the Vedas, I request you to state if atman,

birth/rebirth, karma, dharma are vedic concepts or not.May I pose a practical

question to you: Based on the vedas, what is the most appropriate time for

performing a marriage? By time is meant which period of time shall you choose

to perform the ceremony? Please dont give the answer in terms of the age of the

individuals who are to be married. Your answer should be in accordance with the

principles stated in the Ve! das.

Broadly speaking, is there any vedic concept such as quality of time (ie., a

good time or a bad time)and how is this quality determined?regardsHariPS: I

think Chandrasekar made a typo and probably meant "...opinion ON vedas..." and

not "...opinion AS vedas...". vedic astrology, Rajeev

Kumar <satpath1> wrote:> Namaste Chandrashekhar Ji,> > My prime question

is whether there is refernece to Astrology(as concept of fate) in Vedas. If you

say yes then please quote the references.> > You also said that you respect

Swami Dayananda as Veda(Learned, Knowledge) then what's the problem in quoting

his opinion ?.> > And who can deny the tests of truth I gave in my last mail.>

> Jyotish means knowledge of light etymologically. It is used to> refer to the

science of astronomy. It DOES NOT actuall! y mean

astrology even though due to our ignorance we beleive Jyoti sh to mean

astrology.> Infact there has been no word in Sanskrit for astrology as the

concept of fate being decided by planets was non-existent till very recent

times (a few thousand years ago).> > Those who claim to be masters of vedic

astrology are just making false claims since there is not even a remote

reference to astrology in Vedas.> Thus, you will find that in none of these

books on vedic astrology or vedaang jyotish is any shloka or sukta given from

vedas.> > > > Regards> > Rajeev> Archives:

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