Twin Problem

November 23, 2003

Dear Nrsma

It is probably nothing personal . The jyotish-list list is notoriously hard to get on an off .

Excellent post . I will certainly file and keep

Nicholas

,

The following mails are from a different list and were forwarded to me. I wanted

to to that list and post the following response, as the question

raised was very important. However, to my surprise, my subscription was not

approved in three days. Nor was I informed why. It is not that I am dying to

to that list and I anyway don't have much time to contribute to that

list or to any list for that matter.

Nevertheless, I am dismayed that some list owners want to shut off people whose

views differ from theirs. It's a shame, a total disgrace.

November 23, 2003

Dear Narasimha,

This is very enlightening. Thank you for your valuable insignts.

Robben

"Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" wrote:

Namaste

friends, The following

mails are from a different list and were forwarded to me. I wanted to

to that list and post the following response, as the question raised was

very important. However, to my surprise, my subscription was not approved

in three days. Nor was I informed why. It is not that I am dying to

to that list and I anyway don't have much time to contribute to that list

or to any list for that matter. Nevertheless,

I am dismayed that some list owners want to shut off people whose views

differ from theirs. It's a shame, a total disgrace. Anyway,

I am posting the reply I wanted to post there here instead. It is not my

loss if I am not allowed to join a particular list. May

Jupiter's light shine on us,Narasimha--------------------------------Namaste

Ranjan, > Unless you

are already aware of it, this is dealt in an article>

by PVR Narasimha Rao in an issue in the Astrological>

Magazine and in his text book. Thank

you for referring to me. But what I have addressed in my articles and book

is one aspect and what Praveen ji mentioned is quite another. Praveen ji

asked a profound question and I'll attempt to answer. You

can read a small article by me on the charts of Gaur twins mentioned by

Praveen ji at: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/050200.htm Incidentally,

this article was dedicated to Sri K.N. Rao, who seems to be active on this

list. In this article, I showed how differences in some divisional charts

made them significantly different in some areas of life. *

* * However,

the other question raised by Praveen ji is very interesting. He wrote: >

But, how to explain their parents' life, which is same for both>

of them, through different Navamsas and Dwadasamsas ? He

noted that the twins have a different lagna in dwadasamsa (D-12) and wondered

why it is so, given that both have the same parents. In

fact, we can have a similar problem with non-twin siblings too. My D-12,

my sister's D-12 and my brother's D-12 are significantly different (not

just lagna, but the whole charts!). How come we have the same parents then? The

answer, to me, is quite simple. One's D-12 does _not_ show everything about

one's parents. It is not the chart of one's parents. It is still the _native's_

chart. It simply shows the _parental environment_ supporting one's existence.

Rasi chart shows one's physical existence and various divisional charts

show various environments that surround and support one's existence. For

example, hora chart (D-2) shows one's financial environment. Dasamsa (D-10)

chart shows one's professional environment. Vimsamsa (D-20) chart shows

one's spiritual environment. Siddhamsa (D-24) chart shows one's learning

environment. And so on. Similarly,

dwadasamsa (D-12) shows one's parental environment. If parents are physically

the same for two people, it does not mean their "parental environment"

is the same. Their relationships with parents can be different and their

perspectives on their parents can be different. That is what "parental

environment" is all about and that is what D-12 shows. The physical existence

of parents, on the other hand, is shown by the rasi charts of parents. The

same thing holds in the case of saptamsa (D-7), which shows one's children

according to Parasara. A child's mother and father may have different indications

regarding that same child, in their respective D-7's. It is perfectly fine.

A father and a mother may have different perspectives on (and different

relations with) the same child. Thus,

just because two people have the same parents or the same children, you

cannot expect their D-12 or D-7 to be the same or even similar. *

* * When

we explain the differences between twins, or, for that matter, when we

explain any chart, one very important factor that most of us almost always

ignore is shashtyamsa (D-60). I know twins who have all the divisional

charts upto D-60 being the same, with only D-60 being different out of

shodasa vargas (16 divisions). But they have totally varying fortunes and

different lives! Clearly, D-60 is indispensable, if one were to be rational

and scientific. In

fact, Parasara also evidently felt the same. Parasara explained that the

rasi chart shows physical existence, hora chart shows the financial environment

under which one leads one's existence, dasamsa chart shows the professional

environment under which one leads one's existence and so on. When he came

to D-60, Parasara simply said: "shashtyamsekhilameekshayet" (everything

be seen in D-60). He did not say that even regarding the rasi chart! If

D-60 is a chart in which everything is seen, clearly it is an important

chart. In fact, the

importance of D-60 was brought out by Parasara clearly again, when he discussed

vimsopaka bala. In dasa varga scheme (which is the most important in normal

human births - shat, sapta and shodasa vargas are more important in mundane,

electional and royal horoscopy), Parasara gave a weightage of 5 to D-60,

3 to rasi and 1.5 to navamsa. Thus, D-60 is more important than rasi and

navamsa put together! Even in shodasa varga (important in royal horoscopy),

D-60 gets a higher weightage in vimsopaka bala than rasi as well as navamsa.

Clearly, Parasara gave indications in multiple places that D-60 is a very

key chart. I was taught

that the D-60 chart shows the exact karma that is to be experienced in

one's lifetime, as a result of one's accumulated past karma. Rasi chart

showing the physical existence and various divisional charts showing various

environments merely show the *medium* through which this karma has to be

experienced!! The karma to be experienced is seen clearly from D-60 alone.

As long as we ignore D-60, we cannot hope to have a consistent, logical

and rational set of principles. *

* * I

will give an example of D-60 analysis. Let

us take the D-60 chart of Sri K.N. Rao. The chart is as follows: Lagna

in Ar; Venus in Ta; Jupiter & Ketu in Le; Sun & Mars in Li; Saturn

in Sg; Mercury in Cp; Rahu in Aq; Moon in Pi. Ketu

is in the 5th house with Jupiter (just like in my D-60 chart). Ketu's Moola

dasa during 1963-1968 must've given excellent scholarship and experiences

in spiritual subjects and astrology. The 6th (service) lord Mercury is

in 10th (career). His Moola dasa ran during 1953-1958. His career may have

started then. Venus is in own sign in the 2nd house of astrology. He became

a famous astrologer in Venus Moola dasa (1992-2004). Thus,

D-60 shows "everything" as Parasara said and shows some karma that _must_

be experienced. It can be used in conjunction with other divisional charts

and rasi chart, which show the medium (physical existence and various environments)

through which this karma is experienced. Moola dasa taught by Varahamihira

and Kalyana Verma is excellent for seeing when each karma shown by D-60

fructifies. Moola means "root" and moola dasa shows the root cause of whatever

happens in one's life, viz the accumulated karma behind each event. May

Jupiter's light shine on us,PVR

Narasimha Rao >

Praveen Kumar

> Thursday, November

20, 2003 9:33 AM

> Twin Problem

>

> Dear Members,

> Problem of twins perplexes

many in astrology. I too couldn't resolve it many times. Here is a case

study of two brothers Satyam and Shivam born two minutes apart (picked

from other source) :

>

> Time

of Birth : 4:06 pm (Satyam), 4:08 pm (Sivam) ; DOB: 04.11.1970 ; POB :

76E53, 30N44

> (1) Satyam has a solid

health. Sivam has a poor health and has several problems including some

kidney problems (stones in kidneys).

> (2) Satyam is easy-going,

optimistic, friendly and jovial. Sivam is a gloomy and serious person without

trust in others. Sivam is a skeptic with no trust in subjects like astrology.

> (3) Satyam was a brilliant

student. He was good at commerce and accounting. Sivam was a mediocre student

except in Maths.

>

> Here lagna in Navamsa,

Dwadasamsa and some other vargas change to the next one. Thus difference

in their destiny can be explained well. But, how to explain their parents'

life, which is same for both of them, through different Navamsas and Dwadasamsas

? Destinies are interlinked and we can peep into parents life, atleast

to some extent, through their children's horoscopes. Similar other problems

are often observed in twins' cases which is, I consider, acid-test for

astrology and astrologers.

>

> Learned members are

requested to comment upon.

>

> Praveen Kumar (Mumbai,

India)

|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri

Krishnaarpanamastu ||

Terms of Service.

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November 23, 2003

Dear Naraasimharaoji,

I understand your feelings. But it is not everyone who is willing to accept the

truth that Knowledge has no boundaries. Some are even scared of any discussions

at variance with their own theories. It is said one is fit to be called Dhnyani

when he is able to accept that there might be things that he is yet to

understand at depth. You must have seen posts questioning knowledge of a person

on the basis of his age or length of his study, those these have not much

relevance in acquiring knowledge. Such is life.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

[pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net]Sunday, November 23, 2003 11:44 AMTo:

vedic astrologyCc: chunnu2001 (AT) vsnl (DOT) net; rrgb (AT) sprint (DOT) caSubject:

[vedic astrology] Re: Twin Problem

Namaste friends,

The following mails are from a different list and were forwarded to me. I wanted

to to that list and post the following response, as the question

raised was very important. However, to my surprise, my subscription was not

approved in three days. Nor was I informed why. It is not that I am dying to

to that list and I anyway don't have much time to contribute to that

list or to any list for that matter.

Nevertheless, I am dismayed that some list owners want to shut off people whose

views differ from theirs. It's a shame, a total disgrace.

Anyway, I am posting the reply I wanted to post there here instead. It is not my

loss if I am not allowed to join a particular list.

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

--------------------------------

Namaste Ranjan,

> Unless you are already aware of it, this is dealt in an article

> by PVR Narasimha Rao in an issue in the Astrological

> Magazine and in his text book.

Thank you for referring to me. But what I have addressed in my articles and book

is one aspect and what Praveen ji mentioned is quite another. Praveen ji asked a

profound question and I'll attempt to answer.

You can read a small article by me on the charts of Gaur twins mentioned by Praveen ji at:

http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/050200.htm

Incidentally, this article was dedicated to Sri K.N. Rao, who seems to be active

on this list. In this article, I showed how differences in some divisional

charts made them significantly different in some areas of life.

* * *

However, the other question raised by Praveen ji is very interesting. He wrote:

> But, how to explain their parents' life, which is same for both

> of them, through different Navamsas and Dwadasamsas ?

He noted that the twins have a different lagna in dwadasamsa (D-12) and wondered

why it is so, given that both have the same parents.

In fact, we can have a similar problem with non-twin siblings too. My D-12, my

sister's D-12 and my brother's D-12 are significantly different (not just

lagna, but the whole charts!). How come we have the same parents then?

The answer, to me, is quite simple. One's D-12 does _not_ show everything about

one's parents. It is not the chart of one's parents. It is still the _native's_

chart. It simply shows the _parental environment_ supporting one's existence.

Rasi chart shows one's physical existence and various divisional charts show

various environments that surround and support one's existence. For example,

hora chart (D-2) shows one's financial environment. Dasamsa (D-10) chart shows

one's professional environment. Vimsamsa (D-20) chart shows one's spiritual

environment. Siddhamsa (D-24) chart shows one's learning environment. And so

on.

Similarly, dwadasamsa (D-12) shows one's parental environment. If parents are

physically the same for two people, it does not mean their "parental

environment" is the same. Their relationships with parents can be different and

their perspectives on their parents can be different. That is what "parental

environment" is all about and that is what D-12 shows. The physical existence

of parents, on the other hand, is shown by the rasi charts of parents.

The same thing holds in the case of saptamsa (D-7), which shows one's children

according to Parasara. A child's mother and father may have different

indications regarding that same child, in their respective D-7's. It is

perfectly fine. A father and a mother may have different perspectives on (and

different relations with) the same child.

Thus, just because two people have the same parents or the same children, you

cannot expect their D-12 or D-7 to be the same or even similar.

* * *

When we explain the differences between twins, or, for that matter, when we

explain any chart, one very important factor that most of us almost always

ignore is shashtyamsa (D-60). I know twins who have all the divisional charts

upto D-60 being the same, with only D-60 being different out of shodasa vargas

(16 divisions). But they have totally varying fortunes and different lives!

Clearly, D-60 is indispensable, if one were to be rational and scientific.

In fact, Parasara also evidently felt the same. Parasara explained that the rasi

chart shows physical existence, hora chart shows the financial environment under

which one leads one's existence, dasamsa chart shows the professional

environment under which one leads one's existence and so on. When he came to

D-60, Parasara simply said: "shashtyamsekhilameekshayet" (everything be seen in

D-60). He did not say that even regarding the rasi chart! If D-60 is a chart in

which everything is seen, clearly it is an important chart.

In fact, the importance of D-60 was brought out by Parasara clearly again, when

he discussed vimsopaka bala. In dasa varga scheme (which is the most important

in normal human births - shat, sapta and shodasa vargas are more important in

mundane, electional and royal horoscopy), Parasara gave a weightage of 5 to

D-60, 3 to rasi and 1.5 to navamsa. Thus, D-60 is more important than rasi and

navamsa put together! Even in shodasa varga (important in royal horoscopy),

D-60 gets a higher weightage in vimsopaka bala than rasi as well as navamsa.

Clearly, Parasara gave indications in multiple places that D-60 is a very key

chart.

I was taught that the D-60 chart shows the exact karma that is to be experienced

in one's lifetime, as a result of one's accumulated past karma. Rasi chart

showing the physical existence and various divisional charts showing various

environments merely show the *medium* through which this karma has to be

experienced!! The karma to be experienced is seen clearly from D-60 alone. As

long as we ignore D-60, we cannot hope to have a consistent, logical and

rational set of principles.

* * *

I will give an example of D-60 analysis.

Let us take the D-60 chart of Sri K.N. Rao. The chart is as follows:

Lagna in Ar; Venus in Ta; Jupiter & Ketu in Le; Sun & Mars in Li; Saturn in Sg;

Mercury in Cp; Rahu in Aq; Moon in Pi.

Ketu is in the 5th house with Jupiter (just like in my D-60 chart). Ketu's Moola

dasa during 1963-1968 must've given excellent scholarship and experiences in

spiritual subjects and astrology. The 6th (service) lord Mercury is in 10th

(career). His Moola dasa ran during 1953-1958. His career may have started

then. Venus is in own sign in the 2nd house of astrology. He became a famous

astrologer in Venus Moola dasa (1992-2004).

Thus, D-60 shows "everything" as Parasara said and shows some karma that _must_

be experienced. It can be used in conjunction with other divisional charts and

rasi chart, which show the medium (physical existence and various environments)

through which this karma is experienced. Moola dasa taught by Varahamihira and

Kalyana Verma is excellent for seeing when each karma shown by D-60 fructifies.

Moola means "root" and moola dasa shows the root cause of whatever happens in

one's life, viz the accumulated karma behind each event.

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

PVR Narasimha Rao

> Praveen Kumar > Thursday, November 20, 2003 9:33 AM>

Twin Problem> > Dear Members,> Problem of twins perplexes many in

astrology. I too couldn't resolve it many times. Here is a case study of two

brothers Satyam and Shivam born two minutes apart (picked from other source) :>

> Time of Birth : 4:06 pm (Satyam), 4:08 pm (Sivam) ; DOB: 04.11.1970 ; POB

: 76E53, 30N44 > (1) Satyam has a solid health. Sivam has a poor health and

has several problems including some kidney problems (stones in kidneys). >

(2) Satyam is easy-going, optimistic, friendly and jovial. Sivam is a gloomy

and serious person without trust in others. Sivam is a skeptic with no trust in

subjects like astrology. > (3) Satyam was a brilliant student. He was good at

commerce and accounting. Sivam was a mediocre student except in Maths.> >

Here lagna in Navamsa, Dwadasamsa and some other vargas change to the next one.

Thus difference in their destiny can be explained well. But, how to explain

their parents' life, which is same for both of them, through different Navamsas

and Dwadasamsas ? Destinies are interlinked and we can peep into parents life,

atleast to some extent, through their children's horoscopes. Similar other

problems are often observed in twins' cases which is, I consider, acid-test for

astrology and astrologers.> > Learned members are requested to comment upon.>

> Praveen Kumar (Mumbai, India)

Archives: vedic astrologyGroup info:

vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light

shine on us .......

November 23, 2003

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Narasimha Ji,

Thanks for this special mail.Now I also checked both the charts and if we use

Lahiri's Ayanamsha,then only Navamsha and Dwadashamsha Lagna change but if you

use KP Ayanamsha,only D-60 Lagna changes but all other Varga Lagna does not

change at all.So in that D-12 Lagna also remains the same in both charts and

the parental environment does not change at all.From 1985, I am using KP

Ayanamsha and normally I used to get good results.Anyhow it depends on each

person which Ayanamsha to use.

Anyhow this is for your information.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao."Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net> wrote: