RE: // Jupiter capable of destroying the house it and Saturn Protects//

August 30, 2003

Thank you for this thread. I realize it's not easy to clearly get point accross

in complex issues like this one is- My understanding is- Ju can be both 'papa'

and 'benefic', depending on H.Lordship and aspects. And it's quite a success

that you've lead this thread without falling into black and white trap.

As a result, I also understand better your point, you've consistently

communicated to us, re bravity of shlokas- Ju in 1st for Ta and Ge /for

example/ brings benefits to fifth and seventh house, but not first . It seems

to be easily verifiable.

Thank you for all of this,

Chandrashekhar,

Best Regards,

AnnaChandrashekhar Sharma <boxdel (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

Dear Pradeep,

If you remember my posts on various subjects on this list, you will remember

that I have said, it is very easy to ignore that which faces you and

concentrate on only one factor. This leads one to draw wrong conclusions. In

the case of Jupiter in 1st house your question though right, misses out on one

important fact. This is that Jupiter in 1st aspects 5th 7th and 9th. Look at

the names given to these houses and the answer is obvious. I have already said

that Jupiter's aaspect protects whereas Saturn's ( barring exception already

mentioned earlier) harms.

Chandrashekhar.

vijayadas_pradeep

[vijayadas_pradeep ]Saturday, August 30, 2003 2:49 AMTo:

vedic astrologySubject: [vedic astrology] Re: Why is // Jupiter

capable of destroying the house it and Saturn Protects//Dear

ChandrashekarjiThanks for the detailed reply.So i understand jeevaha and

mandaha references are jupiter and saturn respectively.No statement can stand

own its own.What is the circumstance in which this shloka is told by Parashara.

Jupiter placement in first house(in own sign) ofcourse puts one under tremendous

pressure to be just to everyone and react fast to things which one think are not

correct.Thus this placement might help others more, than the self, atleast in

certain aspects(because you have to lose something to balance

the other)But at the same time i should say this gives one great craving for

knowledge and also the blessing named luck.Really helps fifth and ninth

houses.So i feel though there are difficulties due to the strictness,overall it

is a blessing,if in strength plus other factors .The brevity of sanskrit is

amazing.Also your statement ' Guru for Sagittarius' is neutral - keeps me

thinking.Plus Papa for some 6 rashis!Thanks a lotPradeep--- In

vedic astrology, "Chandrashekhar Sharma" <boxdel> wrote:>

Dear Pradeep.> It is "Sthana bhrashta karoti jeevaha. sthana rakshati

mandaha.". I have not> said that Jupiter damages all indications of a house.

Astrology is not a> mathematical science, though projected as such by many. The

Astrologer has> to assess the chart as a whole and arrive at the impact the

relative> planetary position will have

on the horoscope as a whole.> > About 2nd house placement of Jupiter , it does

cause problems to 2nd house> unless placed in his own Rasi.About his placement

in 1st house ,as you say> you have own experience.> > I have nowhere said that

nature of Guru is Bhrashtra. I have said that Guru> causes the indication of

the sthana in which he is placed to become> blemished(Bharashtra).I am

emphasising on word Bhrashta, because that is> what the shloka says and its

translation into english is indeed difficult. I> look at astrological

principles from an analytical point of view. I> ,generally, do not try to

associate them with Scriptural stories.> > The reason is that the meaning

depends on one's own interpretation of> scriptures.And believe me they are

capable of different interpretations,> because of brevity of Sanskrit language.

The sanskrit grammar has

undergone> many changes over the thousands of years that it has been in

existence. It> is said " Laksham Vyakaranam Proktam, Chaturlaksham Tu

Jyotisham."> > However some tend to think that the planets have fixed nature (

and they> might have their own experiences to believe such), whereas the

nature> vis-a-vis a Jataka would depend on many factors such as house

ownership,> placement,aspects, Varga positions and so on.> > The theory being

advanced that Jupiter always protects, though attractive> does not explain why

his place ment in 5th in strength is harmful to getting> progeny or 2nd house

placement gives not favourable results. It also tends> to ridicule the Great

parashara who says that Jupiter is said to be "Papa" a> malefic for

Taurus,Gemini,Virgo,Libra,Capricorn and Aquarius.In addition ,> the reason of

his being neutral to his Moola

trikona Rasi Sagitarius as> stated by parashara would be wrong if we accept the

hypothessis of Jupiter> being auscpicious no matter what and where.> > You

could find out whether the principle is right or wrong by applying to> real

life charts. This is the only way to ascertain whether a hypothesis is> correct

or not.> > Hope this helps,> Chandrashekhar.> > > >

vijayadas_pradeep [vijayadas_pradeep]> Friday, August

29, 2003 9:50 PM> vedic astrology> Subject:

[vedic astrology] Re: Why is // Jupiter capable of destroying the> house it and

Saturn Protects//> > > > Dear chandrashekar ji> > Could you kindly quote the

shloka related to guru.This is just out> of curiosity.>

> Then from your mails i have understood that,you are very particular> about

the 'Bhrashta' while speaking about jupiter.> > I believe apart from

understanding the inherent meaning, you might> be having some experience

related to the Guru and Bhrashta,perhaps> with people whom you know well.> >

If you could quote some real life experiences it would become more> useful.>

Because if we consider a person having jupiter in 2nd house - The> person

should have problem related to money> savings,speech,family,and other aspects

reprsntd by 2nd house.How is> this possible for all the aspects?> > I am

totally with you regarding the strictness which guru might> impose on the

houses in which he is placed - at

least regarding> first house (because of own experience,also forming hamsa

yoga).> > But again first house represents ->

physique,appearance,intellect,complexion,happiness etc.But could you> explain

how or why gurus prescence should result in damage of all> these aspects.> >

I dont want to conclude anything for me.I want to wait and> understand what

the sages have said.> > So from your experience and knowledge i am trying to

gain some real> understanding regarding this.> > Also Zoranjis mail was

conveying the message - one should> differentiate the nature of the planets

from other factors.> But i understood from your mails that the very nature of

guru is> resulting in 'Bhrashta'.So how do we relate

this.> > regds & thanks> Pradeep> > --- In

vedic astrology, Zoran Radosavljevic> <ahimsa@N...> wrote:>

> Om Namo Narayanaya,> > Dear Chandrakeshar,> > I see.. I was relying upon a

subject.. This hypotesyse given as> the> > subject " Jupiter capable of

destroying the house it and Saturn> > protects" is highly dubious and should

not be followed...> > Best wishes> > Zoran> >> > Chandrashekhar Sharma

wrote:> >> > > Dear Zoran,> > >> > > You are perhaps misinterpreting

the Sanskrita word Guru with the> word> > > Guru

as planet used in the original post.I was just trying to> clear> > > the

misunderstanding when Guru as in planet was being taken as> Gur as> > > in

the master by explaining the principles from both the> hypothesis.> > >>

> > Regards,> > >> > > Chandrashekhar.> > >> > > -----Original

Message-----> > > Zoran Radosavljevic [ahimsa@N...]> > >

Thursday, August 28, 2003 7:50 AM> > > To:

vedic astrology> > > Re: [vedic astrology] Re:

Why is // Jupiter

capable> of> > > destroying the house it and Saturn Protects//> > >>

> > Om Namo Narayanaya,> > > Dear Chandrakeshar and members,> > >

Sorry for butting in so abrubtly without the following of the> > >

previous mails... It has been experience among my students> and> > >

those who learn Jyotish> > > that some basic confusion is very strong.

One should never> mix> > > the natural tendency of a Graha and

functional role of the> Graha..> >

> Natural benefics as Guru who is the Bhagwan of the chart will> > >

NEVER harm any point but on the contrary will IMPROVE all> points> > >

he touches> > > in the chart by means of his NATURE. However, each graha

has> a> > > role and different states. For instance, such guru may

rule> 8th> > > house which is> > > Randra or the vulnarable

place, the worst house. It is akin> to a> > > good person having a

negative role. E.G> suppose, a good> neigbhour> >

> has to tell you that> > > someone who is dear has passed away... it

will never change> his> > > nature, he will still remain a good

neigbour.. Furthermore,> graha> > > may give bad results even if

benefic if placed in bad> avastas.> > > However, it doesnot again

change its nature.. The malefic> results> > > are given due to graha

bad mood. Thus, if guru gives bad> results, it> > > may give only on

the bases of its rulership of bad houses, or> > > being placed in bad

avastas. It can never change his

natural> > > benefic tendency..> > > Hope this may help> > >

Best wishes> > > Zoran> > >> > > Chandrashekhar Sharma wrote:>

> >> > >> Dear Pradeep,> > >>> > >> The analogy of student/king

is misunderstood. It was an> aside to> > >> the main topic and just to

understand the idea of why the> > >> student's hous e would feel

unconfortable by presence of> Guru.> > >>> >

>> It is well to understand that the results that Jupiter will> give> >

>> in each case would vary depending on his house lordship and> house>

> >> of placement. However the streak of damage(Bhrashta) to the> house>

> >> would remain, though modified.If he house is bad the results> > >>

could actually be good as the bad efects get lessened.> > >>> > >>

Chandrashekhar.> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> -----Original

Message-----> >

>> vijayadas_pradeep [> vijayadas_pradeep ]> > >>

Wednesday, August 27, 2003 2:39 AM> > >> To:

vedic astrology> > >> [vedic astrology] Re:

Why is // Jupiter> capable of> > >> destroying the house it and

Saturn Protects//> > >>> > >> Dear Chandrashekar ji> > >>> > >>

This suggestion is really good.> >

>> I too feel one should learn astrology from the original> textual>

> >> language or its derivatives, after reading your mail.> > >>> >

>> But now after seeing your mail for amol ji,i am still> having> >

>> some> > >> doubts.> > >>> > >> As you have

said, even though your example-regarding> > >> student,guru> >

>> and all cannot be generalised - I am taking that> example to> >

>> clear my> > >> doubts.> > >>> > >> Here i

believe the nature of the students and guru has> to be> > >>

considered - Similarly the king and minister.> > >>> > >> If both

are of the same nature - then no one has to> > >> suffer,'Bhrashta'.>

> >>

1)Similarly if jupiter is placed in a friendly house or> > >> deeptha

or> > >> swakshethra - harmony is not troubled ,under normal> > >>

circumstances.> > >>> > >> 2)But as the lagna or the

individual is subject to> various> > >> influences within the chart

- there can be disharmony.> > >>> > >> Hence do you consider my

point(1) as haaving some> relevance?> >

>> or shld we always give importance only to point (2).> > >>> > >>

Please pardon me from asking questions like this as i> am no> > >>

person> > >> to debate with you - either by knowledge or age.>

> >>> > >> Thanks again> > >> Pradeep> > >>> > >>> >

>>> > >> vedic-> astrology ,

"Chandrashekhar Sharma"> > >> <boxdel> wrote:> > >> >

Dear Pradeep,> > >> > The confusion arises because of the fact that

some> > >> Sanskrita words> > >> loose> > >> >

their import when translated to English. The shloka> does> > >> not

say> > >> Damage or> > >> >

Harm. It says"Bhrashta". The word has different> conotations> > >>

depending on the> > >> > context. Like Sthanabhrashta would be

something like> > >> loosing one's> > >> place> > >>

> whereas Sheelabhrashta would mean one whose moral are> > >>

loose. The> > >> same when> > >> > said to be done by other

would mean harming or>

damaging> > >> other's> > >> modesty.> > >> >

Limitations of the language does sometimes pose a> problem in> > >>

conveyance of> > >> > the corect meaning of sanskrita words. This is

why I> have said> > >> many a times> > >> > that

Astrology is better understood if one learns it> in> > >>

Sanskrit> > >> or Sanskrit> > >> > based Indian languages.>

> >> > Hope this helps,> > >> > Chandrashekhar.> > >>

> > > >> > vijayadas_pradeep [>

vijayadas_pradeep@y ...]> > >> > Tuesday, August 26,

2003 7:38 PM> > >> > To:

vedic astrology> > >> > [vedic astrology]

Re: Why is // Jupiter> capable of> > >> destroying the> > >>

> house it and Saturn Protects//> > >> >> > >> >> > >>

> Dear Chandrashekar ji> > >> >> > >> > I now

understand why Jupiter placement can result in> >

>> difficult> > >> > outcomes.> > >> >> > >>

> Do you mean to say if jupiter is placed in> puthrasthana> > >>

,then the> > >> > individuals can be intelligent but their

children> will> > >> suffer.This is> > >> > just to

make sure, if i have understood your> example.>

> >> >> > >> > But i have one slight difference in opinion>

regarding the> > >> statement -> > >> > 'Jupiter destroys

or harms'.> > >> >> > >> > This statement makes us puzzled

about the meaning> > >> vis-a-vis the> > >> > nature of

Jupiter.> >

>> >> > >> > Because when we say it destroys - it means

jupiter's> > >> action was> > >> > intented towards

destruction.But that is not the> > >> case.Jupiter> > >>

tends> > >> > to stick to principles even during adverse>

situations.This> > >> behaviour> > >>

> makes him unable to protect.But his intention was> never to> > >>

destroy> > >> > nor the behaviour deserves destruction.> > >>

>> > >> > But if you take another example> > >> >

When Ravana abducted Sita ,his behaviour deserved> > >> destruction.>

> >> >> > >> > Though both the

behaviours resulted(ends) in the> > >> destruction of> > >>

> the 'houses',the means are not the same.> > >> >> > >>

> Hence i believe if we say Jupiter is unable to> protect> > >>

the house> > >> in> > >> > which it is placed,during all

circumstances, it> becomes less> > >> ambigue

-> > >> > vis-a-vis its nature,because destruction was never>

intended.> > >> >> > >> > Though the end result is same i

feel there is a> > >> difference in the> > >> > inherent

meaning.> > >> >> > >> > Kindly correct me if i am

wrong.> > >> >> >

>> > Also should one learn something from this lesson -> to> > >>

live in> > >> Kali> > >> > Yuga!> > >> >>

> >> > Thanks and respect> > >> > Pradeep> > >>

>> > >> > vedic-> astrology ,

"Chandrashekhar> > >> Sharma"> > >> > <boxdel>

wrote:> > >> > > Dear Pradeep,> > >> > > Certain

principles are given by the sages and are> found> > >> to be> >

>> true> > >> > in their> > >> > > application.

Having said that, have you observed>

that the> > >> children> > >> > living> > >> >

> with highly intelligent parents rarely suceed?> This is> > >>

what> > >> happens> > >> > with> > >> > >

Jupiter placement in a house. You will also> not ,if one> > >>

wants> >

>> to go> > >> > to> > >> > > Puranas that

Deva's abode was attacked by the> Daanaavas> > >> more> > >>

often> > >> > than> > >> > > other way round, though

Brihaspati resided there.> Devas> > >> invariably> > >>

> got> > >> > > defeated and had to be rescued by Mahadeva,>

Vishnu,> > >> Durga etc.> > >> > Saturn> > >> >

> usually sided with the danavas and his samdharmi> Rahu> > >> was

their> > >> > Senapati.> > >> > > About Saturn being

good in bad houses has to do> with his> >

>> ability to> > >> > protect.> > >> > > He

protects one from bad indications of that> house.> > >> These are>

> >> my> > >> > personal> > >> > > opinions and

other worthies might have different> opinions.> > >> > >

Chandrashekhar.> >

>> > >> > >> > > ----> > >>

> >> > >> > > vedic astrology> > >>

> > Monday, August 25, 2003 08:17:02 PM> > >> > > To:

vedic astrology> > >> > > Subject:

[vedic astrology] Why is // Jupiter> capable of> >

>> destroying> > >> > the house> > >> > > it and

Saturn Protects//> > >> > >> > >> > > Dear Chandrashekar

ji and learned members.> > >> > >> > >> > > I have seen

from the archives ,where you had> > >> participated in> > >>

> > discussions,that Jupiter has the capacity to> destroy> > >>

the bhava> > >> in> > >> > > which> > >> > >

it is placed and Saturn Protects.> > >> > >> > >> > >

Here I have some queries.> > >> > >> > >> > > What is

the reason for a benevolent

planet like> jupiter> > >> to try> > >> and> > >>

> > harm> > >> > > or destroy.> > >> > >> > >>

> > Also i have read that saturn can be good in bad> houses> > >>

(6,8,12> > >> > etc) -> >

>> > > because ,saturn by nature is bad and hence bad> and bad> >

>> > > (negative,negative results in positive) should> bring> >

>> good. But> > >> if> > >> > > saturn> > >>

> > can protect all the houses where it is> placed ,then the> > >>

above> > >> > >

statement> > >> > > loses ist significance.Pls correct if my>

understanding> > >> of this> > >> > > 'negative-negative'

is wrong.> > >> > >> > >> > > When i try to understand

the nature of jupiter -> I feel> > >> it can> > >> test>

> >> > >

the> > >> > > individual always on the path of life,which can be>

> >> painfull and> > >> > hard> > >> > > as>

> >> > > well at times. Why is this? Is it because such an> > >>

individual> > >> can> > >> > > combat> >

>> > > the tests and hardships,as jupiter gives him lots> of> > >>

patience> > >> and> > >> > > other> > >>

> > mental strengths or more concern for others? Am i> right?> > >>

> >> > >> > > But why is it trying to destroy?> > >> >

>> >

>> > > Also doesn't other considerations like> > >>

strength,position etc> > >> come> > >> > > into> > >>

> > play while deciding on this?> > >> > >> > >> >

> If you can explain the inherent nature of> Jupiter, by> > >>

virtue of> >

>> > > which> > >> > > it> > >> > > is trying

to behave like this, it would be> helpful.> > >> > >> > >>

> > Moreover i can give input on my real experiences> (good> > >>

and bad)> > >> > about> > >> > > jupiter placed in

ascendant.> > >> > >> > >> > > Thanks a lot> > >>

> > Pradeep> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >

>> > >> > > Sponsor> > >> > >> > >>

>

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vedic-> astrology> > >> > >> > >>

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Sunday, August 31, 2003 10:45 AM

RE: [vedic astrology]// Jupiter capable of destroying the house it and Saturn Protects//

Dear Chandrashekhar,