Swami Narayana and Sai Baba Questions

[Shivam]

Does Swami Narayana believe himself to be Lord Visnu Bhagawan?

 

Does Sai Baba believe himself to be Lord Siva Bhagawan?

 

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

swaminarayan said to worship Krishna alone! Swaminarayan is Guru, not God! But some false make false claims of godhood! Don't believe!

[Shivam]

Oh! I was walking on Kissena Blvd in Flushing near to the Swami Narayana temple chanting Hare Krsna. A Swami Narayana devotee shortly after saw me and told me to go inside his temple and that Swami Narayana is God!

 

I was very confused after hearing this.

[Guest guest]

 

A Swami Narayana devotee shortly after saw me and told me to go inside his temple and that Swami Narayana is God!

 

Swaminarayan devotees believe Swami Narayana is God. Members of other Vaishnava sects will of course disagree.

 

Sai Baba devotees believe Sai Baba is God. But as I understand, Sai Baba teaches that everyone is God: and he is one who realizes who he is. So Sai Baba theology is a bit different than Swaminarayan theology.

[akshar]

Swaminarayan is god not guru as he said himself in shikshapatri. Read verse 108 it clearly states krishna is supreme parmatma. As you'd all be confused ill explain. When swaminarayan was going to be named he had a few names but two of them were krishna and ghanshyam so in the shikshapatri he as reffering to himself. BAPS is the true swaminarayan organisation. Akshardham, a 100 acre complex was built in 5 years! Normally this would take 50 years but through satpurush guru Pramukh wami Maharaj it has been accomplished. He didn't say to worship krsna alone as in BAPS mandirs have murtis of all gods (according to what we can fit in) Swaminarayan isn't vishnu but he is parmatma, along with his companion akshar. Akshar is the dwelling place of purshottam (parmatma) also nows as akshardham. Akshardham is the highest of all heavens and isn't in golukh vrindavan as these other people say. As you say it's true many other sects will disagree after some many changes from ISCKON to BAPS, which isn't a bad thing as they come from the 2 personalities. Akshar is responsible for all incarnations except swaminarayans becaue parmatma himself came down to our planet and sanctified it. The devotee who chanted hare krsna must have een part of the vadtal sect of swaminarayan which isn't exzactly so pure compared to BAPS. As for you Shivam, the bit about that devotee saying swaminarayan is god you must've made up. ALWAYS REMEMBER IT IS SPELT SWAMINARAYAN NOT SWAMI NARAYAN. Come one have some respect. The second post as i could have guessed in my sleep was against swaminarayan. When will you learn that wasn't a mere mortal, only the avatari. If you disagree do so, but don't badmouth swaminarayan and heir devotees.

 

JAY SWAMINARAYAN

[Shivam]

 

As for you Shivam, the bit about that devotee saying swaminarayan is god you must've made up. ALWAYS REMEMBER IT IS SPELT SWAMINARAYAN NOT SWAMI NARAYAN. Come one have some respect. The second post as i could have guessed in my sleep was against swaminarayan. When will you learn that wasn't a mere mortal, only the avatari. If you disagree do so, but don't badmouth swaminarayan and heir devotees.

 

JAY SWAMINARAYAN

 

His exact words when I asked him who is Swaminarayan were "Swaminarayan is like God."

Why would I make up such a thing?

I dont mean to be offensive, I'm only sparking up discussion Prabhuji.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

 

the bit about that devotee saying swaminarayan is god you must've made up.

 

Huh? isn't that exactly what Swaminarayan devotees believe?! so why would Shivam make that up? That's what Swaminarayan devotees do say, even on this forum.

[Guest guest]

Swaminarayan devotees believe he is Parabrahman, supreme GOD!

[Guest guest]

 

Swaminarayan devotees believe he is Parabrahman, supreme GOD!

 

Yeah thats because He is.He is Shri Krishna and Shri Krishna is He!

 

Jay Swaminarayan

[Guest guest]

 

Yeah thats because He is.He is Shri Krishna and Shri Krishna is He!

 

Jay Swaminarayan

 

Is there any evidence of this in any of VedaVyas' literary works to point that Swaminarayan is God? If so, has any verses been cross referenced with verses from other works by Vedavyas? for example verses from the Bhagavad Puran point to vedas and other puranas like Matsya etc? Has he been mentioned more than once in Veda Vyas' work?

 

Are there any verses that are not ambiguous?

 

And if Swaminarayan wanted to say he is God in the Shikshapatri, then he would have said it out and out like Lord Sri Krishna did in Bhagavad Gita, why hid the fact that he is God?

 

Please if you could answer these questions, and I know its a habit to get into a ego struggle as its been done in other threads, but I am not attacking anyone, just simple questions. Please if you could address?

 

Thanks,

 

JHCal

[passionate-freak]

Why people seem to entangled in worthless arguments talkig whether that person is God or not ??? Just don't if anyone is claming to be a God or else because we humans are sent to this earth for some specific reason. If self proclaimed Gods are irritating you why don't you try walking the path they might have traded on ??? It is simple to assume that if someone is claiming to be the God he must be with some powers... and it's obvious when there's somethig awesome people bow down.

 

What I'm trying to say is, stop all these arguments and let's expereince the truth ourselves. They are humans, as we are with the physical body.

What they can do, we can do too. But the path is like walking on the edge of a sword, we gotta be dare-devil !!!

 

Lastly, both of them are not God, Swami Narayan is with the super consciousness or the enlightenment and Sai Baba is still walking on the path to reach it, not with the enlightenment so far, though he is the real son of the GOD fulfilling God's wishes, I guess so.I dunno much because I'm not on that position to judge anyone, first we gotta be on the firm ground ourself ... and I'm walking to the truth... ... ...

People like Swami Narayan may claim to be God with the consciousness of the God...with the Godly state within themselves.

 

Forget about all... U too can be the GOD !!!

[passionate-freak]

 

Swaminarayan devotees believe he is Parabrahman, supreme GOD!

 

Apparent... anyone with the awakened Kundalini, Sahashrar Jagarana, can relate oneself to Parabramha...we become Prabramha... it's what Great Sankara talked about,,,,, I myself is the Bramh... AHAM BRAMHASI...

But it's not the fact that all are the incarnation of God as been told by Shree Krishna.

 

If anyone is so keen knowing what exactly foretolds the incarnation of the God according to Bhagvat Gita... then find a book i guess " Purna Madaha: Purna Midam" by Pundit Pitambar Dutt Shastri of Banaras. It is based on a handwritten script by Sandipan Gurudev, the Guru of Shree Krishna. And you can find out the Janma Kundali of Rama, Krishana, Buddha and ... match it to the people's who are known as the God. It will spread a LIGHT...sure there had been a person exactly told by Sandipana Gurudev ...

but ours is the corpse worshiper society...

 

The day is reaching... when there'll be the streams of Tears on the shameless eyes of so called rational humans.

 

regards

[Guest guest]

 

Apparent... anyone with the awakened Kundalini, Sahashrar Jagarana, can relate oneself to Parabramha...we become Prabramha... it's what Great Sankara talked about,,,,, I myself is the Bramh... AHAM BRAMHASI...

But it's not the fact that all are the incarnation of God as been told by Shree Krishna.

 

If anyone is so keen knowing what exactly foretolds the incarnation of the God according to Bhagvat Gita... then find a book i guess " Purna Madaha: Purna Midam" by Pundit Pitambar Dutt Shastri of Banaras. It is based on a handwritten script by Sandipan Gurudev, the Guru of Shree Krishna. And you can find out the Janma Kundali of Rama, Krishana, Buddha and ... match it to the people's who are known as the God. It will spread a LIGHT...sure there had been a person exactly told by Sandipana Gurudev ...

but ours is the corpse worshiper society...

 

The day is reaching... when there'll be the streams of Tears on the shameless eyes of so called rational humans.

 

regards

 

I am sorry to say but this didnt answer my question. And this discussion is heading towards an ego clash, so lets just forget I asked.

 

JHCal

[Guest guest]

The scriptures are the word of God,He must know our mentality of thinking that full realisation means becoming God, therefore He has stated all His incarnations. To be in firm grounds is to study God's words as they are His innstructions and divine. We should go by His words, not what we think is right etc. If we are God in our perfected being, then why did we become imperfectly put in this world, as Lord Buddha says, this world is full of suffering, and we also do many mistakes here, We have to suffer in this world too. So saying we are God in realised state really doesnt answer this question. The topic is on Swaminarayan and he himself comes from the school of Srimad Ramanuj Acharya who destroyed the concept of "We are God in our realised stage". So please let us stick to the topic. We can open another thread for what you say.

[Guest guest]

If you read the Vachnamrut which is like the Gita of Bhagwan Shri Krishna. Here Swaminarayan Bhagwan States over and over again about His greatness. There is absolute truth in Swaminarayan being God supreme. There is only one god. First of all God Shree Krishna states in the Bhagvat Geeta that whenever there is unrighteousness and evil prevailing the earth he will either come himself or send his saints down to earth to get rid of the sinners and once again establish the path of righteousness.

 

It is stated in the Padma puran (one of the 18 purans of our religion as directed by god supreme):

 

II Datatrayam krutyuge,

tretayaam raghunandana,

dvapare vasudevaha,

kalou swami vrushatmaja II

 

This means that in satyug I (god) will be born as datatray, in tretayug as raam son of the raghu clan, in dwapar yug I will come as Krishna son of vasudev and in kaliyug I will come named Swami son of Dharm (Dharmadev).

 

It also states in Vishnu dharmottar:

 

II Pakhandbahuleloke swami namna hari swayam,

papank nimagnam tajuddhaaryishyati II

 

II Mahadharmanvye punye,

naamna paapvinashke,

hariprasad vivrasya,

swami namna hari svayam II

 

This means that in kaliyug where evil triumphs, I purna purushotam will arrive on the earth named hari. I will redeem many souls and increase their punya (good deeds). I named as Swami will be born to Hari (Hariprasad, orginal name of Dharmadev).

 

Many doubts are raised, and rightly so, as to how Sahajanand Swami can be considered Bhagwan or God. It is extremely rare to find anyone who has anything but praise for Bhagwan Shree Swaminarayan and His achievements and accomplishments. However, questions are raised as to His status.

 

Such concerns surface from the fact that there are many self-styled Gods prevalent in and outside India and it becomes necessary to question their authenticity.

 

For the moment, we shall not enter in to discussion about His supremacy. It is first vital to establish that He was Bhagwan, or at least an incarnation of Bhagwan.

 

God did not need to come down on the Earth just because he was cursed; in fact, this was his will. It was planned by him that it was time to come down and the incident of the curse was therefore used by Lord Nar Narayan (Swaminarayan). Just like when Dev Rishi Narad cursed Laxmi Narayan and therefore God had to be born as Ram and Sita. These incidents also prove to teach a moral lesson as well therefore the Lord also chooses to use them as a reason.

 

The original divine form of God that resides in Akshardham is not like what we see with our eyes. His original sound is not like what we hear with our ears, his touch is not like what we feel with our skin. His smell is not like what we smell with our nose. He is beyond our description by any words. He is not even like what we imagine him to be like with our limited capacity of mind.

 

The lord could easily stay in his abode and do all this from above or even come down as himself without changing his form. Nevertheless, God does not control our minds and our Karmas (actions) even though he can. We as independent souls control these. Therefore the lord would not just stay in his abode and do it all from there. How would we as people find love for him in this way as well? How would we realise his magnificence from mere scriptures alone? It would be impossible. There would not be any belief at all.

 

If God wished to come down on the Earth in his original divine form, a person would not feel comfortable. Just like Arjun did not after seeing the full form of the Lord on the battlefield. He was scared out of his wits.

That is why God withdraws his grandeur with himself and appears before people in a human form. Therefore, people can touch him, hear him and worship him lovingly in all nine ways of worship. A human being can only love another human being in the correct manner therefore the lord comes on the Earth as a human by withdrawing his divine qualities within himself.

Even if he appears before people on Earth in this human form, he is still there in Akshardham with his full form.

 

Brahma is not supreme God. He himself worships the Lord. Brahmaji is just a creation of God used for the creation of this universe. How can Brahma be supreme God if he is affected by the attributes of Maya? What nonsense. He was created from the navel of Vairat Narayan who himself worships the Lord. Brahma Vishnu and Shiv were created for their reasons from the body of Vairat Narayan. However, in order to get to Akshardham they can be worshipped as well.

 

In the Shikshapatri Shlok 108 Sahajanand Swami (Swaminarayan Bhagvan) writes

 

Quote:

“sa sri krshnaha param brahma bhagvaan purushotamaha

upasya ishtadevo naha sarvaavirbhaav kaaranam”

 

 

Quote:

"That isvara is Shree Krshna who is PraBrahma Bhagwan Purushottam

and our most cherished deity (istadeva).

He is worthy of being worshipped by us all (upasya). He is the cause of all

manifestations and incarnations"

 

 

As an elaboration to this shlok, Sadguru Shree Shatanand Muni writes in Artha Dipika (Shikshapatri Bhashya)

 

Quote:

"yaha saakshaat bhagvaan ksharakhara paraha krshnaha

sa eva svayam bhaktau dharmat aas, bhoori krupaya sri svaminarayanaha

maanushyam bhuvi naatayannijjan acharyatvadharme sthitaha

krshnam praha parokshavann tu tatonyaha sosti yatsa svayam”

 

 

Quote:

“That live (saakshat) God (bhagvan) Krshna who is above kshar and akshar, appeared from Bhakti through Dharma as Swaminarayan; assumed a human body on the earth like a dramatist (natta).

That Krshna whilst observing the (human’s) dharmas of an Acharya speaks in third person (parokshavann) but that Krshna is none other than Himself”

 

 

i.e. that Krshna, who Swaminarayan Bhagwan speaks of is none other than Himself, however Krshna is referred to by Swaminarayan Bhagwan in third person form (parokshavann) because Swaminarayan Bhagwan is writing the Shikshapatri in the capacity of an Acharya or Guru (acharyatvadharme).

 

This forms the fundamental basis of this discussion. Swaminarayan Bhagwan was indeed a Guru, Sadhu, Acharya, Teacher and even a devotee of Krshna. But this does not contradict His status as God. He was definite God!

For if this were the case then Lord Rama was a King and fulfilled His role as the ruler of Ayodhya. Lord Krishna was a cowherd and later the King of Dwarika. Also, Lord Nar Narayana were brahmchari-rishis performing tappascharya in Badrik Ashram. Does this imply that a they were not God just because they were kings, a cowherd or rishis? Of course not. Similarly, Swaminarayan Bhagwan was a devotee of Krishna, a Sadhu, an Acharya a Teacher as well as being Lord Himself.

 

The shastras openly proclaim that God manifests Himself numerous times whenever and wherever He seems fit. Srimad Bhagwad Geeta:

 

Quote:

“yada-yada hi dharmasya galnir bhavati bharata

abhyutthanam adharmasya tada 'tmanam srjanmy aham

paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam

dharmasamsthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge-yuge "

 

 

Quote:

“O Bharta (Arjuna), whenever there is a decline of righteousness

and a rise of unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself

For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the

wicked and for establishing righteouseness, I come into being from age to age” Chapter 4 verses 7 and 8

 

 

 

and Srimad Bhagwatam:

 

Quote:

" I also assume other bodies to protect religion

and to end irreligion whenever it

flourishes in the course of time."

10th Skandha, 50th Adhyay 10th Shlok

 

 

Also:

Quote:

"yada hy adharmena tamo-dhiyo nrpa jivanti

tatraisa hi sattvatah kila dhatte bhagam satyam

rtam dayam yaso bhavaya rupani dadhad yuge yuge"

 

“Whenever there are kings and administrators

living like animals in the lowest modes of existence,

the Lord in His transcendental form manifests His supreme power,

the Truth Positive, shows special mercy to the faithful,

performs wonderful activities and manifests various transcendental forms as is

necessary in different periods and ages.”

1st Skandha, 10th Adhyay, 25th Shlok

 

 

 

In Mahabharata, Van Parva Shree Krishna vows to Markandey Muni

 

Quote:

"daitya hinsanuraktashcha, hyavadhya sur sattamaihi

raakshasaaschapi lokesmi-nyadotpdhati darunaha

tadaham sampradaysangyami, gruheshu shubh karmanam

pravishto manusham deham, sarvam prasahmayamyaham"

 

"When the evil, indulgent in vices such as violence, emerges than

I manifest to those who have virtuous deeds (shubh karma).

I assume human bodies and destroy all those"

 

 

More specific references to the arrival of Sahajanand Swami, referring to His accomplishments during His time as human on earth, exist in Srimad Bhagwat where Vyas writes:

 

Quote:

"keerat hunandhra pulind pushkasa,

aabhir kanka yavanaha khasaadayaha

ye-nye cha papa yadupashrayashraya

shuddhyanti tasmey prabhvishnave namaha” 2nd Skandha, 4th Adhyay, 18th Shlok

 

"Kirata, Huna, Andhra, Pulinda, Pulkasa, Abhira, Sumbha,

Yavana, members of the Khasa races and even others addicted to sinful acts

will be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord,

due to His being the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful

obeisance unto Him who is to appear"

 

 

 

In addition, Padma Puran, Brahmand Puran, Vishvaksen Samhita, Vishnu Dharmottar Puran also forecast the coming of Swaminarayan Bhagwan referring to "name of Sahajanandson of Dharmadevknown as Swami" etc.

 

As an additional comment, the Samudrik Shastras state that God and God only has the 16 marks and symbols on His feet. In the Padma Puran Brahmaa tells Narad that He has witnessed sixteen sybols/marks on the Lord of all incarnations' feet. The very sixteen symbols/marks can be found on the lotus feet of Sahajanand Swami.

 

 

The arrival of an avatar is accompanied by a purpose. The purpose of Krishna avatar is well discussed by Krishna Himself. In the Srimad Bhagavatam, Krishna declares His intentions of coming on this earth as well as His intention to return.

Quote:

"haniñyämi balaà hy etad

bhuvi bhäraà samähitam

mägadhena samänétaà

vaçyänäà sarva-bhübhujäm

akñauhiëébhiù saìkhyätaà

bhaöäçva-ratha-kuïjaraiù

mägadhas tu na hantavyo

bhüyaù kartä balodyamam"

10th Skandha 50th Adhyay Shlok 7 and 8

 

“Since it is such a burden on the earth, I will destroy Jarasandha’s army, consisting of akñauhiëés of foot soldiers, horses, chariots and elephants, which the King of Magadha has assembled from all subservient kings and brought together here. But Jarasandha himself should not be killed, since in the future he will certainly assemble another army”

 

 

 

 

Quote:

"etad-artho ’vatäro ’yaà

bhü-bhära-haraëäya me

saàrakñaëäya sädhünäà

kåto ’nyeñäà vadhäya ca"

shloka 9

 

“This is the purpose of My present incarnation—to relieve the earth of its burden,

protect the pious and kill the impious”

 

 

Quote:

“anyopi dharma-rakshayaii

deha sambhriyate maya

viramayapy adharmasya

kale prabhavatau kvacit”

shlok 10

 

"I also assume other bodies to protect religion and to end

irreligion whenever it flourishes in the course of time"

 

 

It can be concluded that the evil people will return, many of them as rulers and kings indulging in vices - and for the removal of such adharma the Lord will assume other forms.

 

Turning to the Vasudev Mahatmya (Skandha Puran, Vishnu Khand) it clearly states that the vow by Lord Krishna is indeed further verified in more detail:

 

Quote:

 

dharmadevAttadA bhaktAdahaM nArAyaNo muniH |

janiSye kozale deze bhUmau hi sAmago dvijaH || 2.9.18 adhyay.43-44 shlok |

 

"Then from the devotee Dharmadeva I, nArAyana muni shall certainly be born on the earth in the land of Kozala as a twice-born singer of the hymns of the sAma veda."

 

 

 

The Lord clearly defines how He will return to destroy that evil He spoke of earlier. He will be born to Dharmadev and Bhaktidevi (as did Swaminarayan Bhagwan), to a Samvedi Brahmin family (as was Swaminarayan Bhagwan). The incident of the sabha in Badrik Ashram and Duravasa Rishi's curse is also mentioned here.

 

Thus it is clear that God returned to establish ekantik dharma against the evil elements that had returned from the time of Vasudev Shree Krshna.

 

It is true that Swaminarayan Bhagwan advocated the worship of Radha-Krishna, but this was to appease the Vaishnavas who were most prevalent in West India. A glimpses of His underlying intention can be found in the Shikshapatri shlok 209:

Quote:

"vakra bhaavetu pujaiv, karya-spaha prativasaram

madroopam iti madvani, manyeyam paramaadarat"

 

"When there is none (who can read out the Shikshapatri) it shall be worshipped daily

as you should be assured with respect that My words are My concrete and manifest form"

 

 

Bhagwan Shree Swaminarayan is addressing His illiterate followers, instructing them to worship the Shikshapatri as if it were Swaminarayan Himself, thereby revealing that He was to be worshipped.

 

When interpreting the Shikshapatri, Bhagwan Shree Swaminarayan has instructed us to refer to the Sampraday' shastras in Shlok 203

 

Quote:

"eeti sankshepto dharmaha, sarvesham likhita maya

sampradayik granthebhyo, gney eshamtu vistaraha"

 

"I have enclosed a summary of the dharmas for all (in this Shikshapatri).

For a detailed elaboration(vistaraha) (of this Shikshapatri) refer

to the shastras of My Sampraday"

 

 

These shastras have been defined to include Vachanamrut, Srimad SatsangiJeevan, Shree Hari Digvijay, Bhaktachintamani and Desh Vibhag no Lekh in particular.

 

When referring to those Shastras we find Bhagwan Shree Swaminarayan often praising Lord Shree Krishna and at times referring to Himself as the Supreme. This is due to the audience which He is addressing where just as in the Shikshapatri, Swaminarayan Bhagwan makes a clear attempt to make it appealing to all virtuous people whether they believe in Swaminarayan as God or not.

 

If He were to openly declare " I, as God, am writing this Shikshapatri.." it would rejected and even ridiculed by those outside the Sampraday and this would hinder His objective of redeeming countless souls.

 

Further in Artha Dipika – Shikshapatri Bhasya we find the following statement

 

Quote:

“nanvastan sri krshnasya parabrahmatvam moolpurushsya bhagavatastu krshnashabda vachyatvam na ghatate. Dvaaparante devaki vasudevabhyam avirbhavantaram krshnam prvrtti siddheriti chettann. Vasudev gruh aavirbhaavatpragev bhagavataha krshnakhyatve sakalam brahmvaivarta puran mev pramanam”.

As a commentary to Shikshapatri Shlok 29.

 

 

The eternal Krshna though is the Parabrahma but the name does not suit MoolPurush (original causal personality) because the God (as Mool Purush) manifested at the end of Dwapara to Devaki and Vasudev and then Gargacharya named Him ‘Krshna’. Note, that after the birth of God to Dharmadev and Bhaktidevi, Markandey Rushi named Him Krshna (as well as Hari and HariKrshna). Therefore whoever says that the name ‘Krshna’ became prevalent after His arrival (in Mathura at the end of Dwapara to Vasudev and Devaki) is not right in doing so, because God's eternal name is Krshna (all attractive) and even before manifesting to Vasudev and Devaki Brahmvaivarta Puran uses the term Krshna many times over.

The Srimad Bhagavatam in 1st Skandha, 3rd Adhyay, 28th Shloka therefore declares after listing 24 avatars including Vasudev Krishna that

“ete chamsh kalaha pumsaha, krshnastu bhagavan svayam”

 

i.e. all these (i.e.24 listed including Vasudev Krshna) are various portions of the Supreme. Bhagavat refers to this same ‘eternal’ Krshna, that Artha Dipika speaks of, as Bhagwan Himself.

 

Just as in the Shikshapatri, in the Vachanamrut Lord Swaminarayan addresses the audience in a manner which appeals to them, at times referring to Himself as a great bhakta (who can be worshipped alongside Lord Shree Krishna) and often revealing Himself as the Supreme Reality.

It is worthy to note, that wherever in the Vachanamrut where Swaminarayan Bhagwan does indeed reveal Himself, the tone and atmosphere set in the beginning of the Prakaran is of a serious nature.

At times, He even discloses His hesitance in imparting these facts for the fear that certain followers' faith will be affected.

 

A few Vachanamrut where Swaminarayan Bhagwan suggests He is a bhakta and/or Guru are: Gadhada Pratham 44; Gadhada Pratham 48; Gadhada Madhyam 28 and Vadtal 18.

 

In many Vachanamruts, Swaminarayan Bhagwan reveals His true identity. Such Prakarans include: Loya 7 and 11; Gadhada Madhya 13; Amdavad (Ahmedabad) 6 and 7 as well as Gadhada Antya 38.

 

Finally, when Swaminarayan Bhagwan decided to establish mandirs He declared that He will install His own images. Moreover, He even installed His present image as Hari Krshna Maharaj in mandirs such as Vadtal.

 

The grandeur of the Swaminarayan Sampraday lies in its ability to accommodate a variety of schools of belief, namely accept Swaminarayan only as a Guru; accept Swaminarayan as an incarnation or accept Swaminarayan as the Incarnator Supreme.

 

Either way, a follower would be obliged to adhere to the precepts laid down in the sarva-jiv-hitavaha Holy Shikshapatri thereby attaining maha-sukh - the ultimate happiness in this world and beyond.

[Guest guest]

Dear Guest,

 

Thank you so much for such a wonderful and informative treasure that you shared with us! This actually shows you are not a blind follower, you have firm faith and moreover you dont like to get into fanaticism or sentimentalism.

 

For the purpose of me first accepting scriptures like the the Vachnamrt and Sikshapatri, I would first need to accept Swaminarayan to be God, so it would be an idea to investigate first from Vedavyas' works, not to say the scriptures you mentioned are not bonafide, I am sure they are divine, but for the purpose of the questions raised, I would like to strictly refer to Vedvyas scriptures for now, I hope you dont mind. We can then refer to the scriptures you mentioned as we go one once the premise of Swami Narayan being God is established. I am sure you would agree in any debate or discussion one's work cannot be given credibility if the premise is to establish onself as credible.

 

 

 

 

It is stated in the Padma puran (one of the 18 purans of our religion as directed by god supreme):

 

II Datatrayam krutyuge,

tretayaam raghunandana,

dvapare vasudevaha,

kalou swami vrushatmaja II

 

This means that in satyug I (god) will be born as datatray, in tretayug as raam son of the raghu clan, in dwapar yug I will come as Krishna son of vasudev and in kaliyug I will come named Swami son of Dharm (Dharmadev).

 

 

 

What is the exact meaning of the words kalou swami vrushatmaja? Does it mean Dharmadeva?

 

Who wrote the Vishnu dharmottar?

 

 

The rest of the verses from the Bhagavad Gita, Mahabharat, Puranas you refered to could only imply Vishnu is God, doesnt substantiate the fact Swaminarayan is God.

 

 

 

In addition, Padma Puran, Brahmand Puran, Vishvaksen Samhita, Vishnu Dharmottar Puran also forecast the coming of Swaminarayan Bhagwan referring to "name of Sahajanandson of Dharmadevknown as Swami" etc.

 

 

Please if you could qoute the exact verses, chapter and book and their transliteration, I am very interested in these.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

"etad-artho ’vatäro ’yaà

bhü-bhära-haraëäya me

saàrakñaëäya sädhünäà

kåto ’nyeñäà vadhäya ca"

shloka 9

 

“This is the purpose of My present incarnation—to relieve the earth of its burden,

protect the pious and kill the impious”

 

 

 

 

If Swaminarayan was God, then why was he only effective in India and not rest of the earth as the above verse says "relieve the earth of its burden" to me that says complete wipe out the impious but during the reign of him, irreligion was growing day by day in the western world.

 

 

 

 

 

Turning to the Vasudev Mahatmya (Skandha Puran, Vishnu Khand) it clearly states that the vow by Lord Krishna is indeed further verified in more detail:

 

Quote:

 

dharmadevAttadA bhaktAdahaM nArAyaNo muniH |

janiSye kozale deze bhUmau hi sAmago dvijaH || 2.9.18 adhyay.43-44 shlok |

 

"Then from the devotee Dharmadeva I, nArAyana muni shall certainly be born on the earth in the land of Kozala as a twice-born singer of the hymns of the sAma veda."

 

 

 

Nar-Narayan Rishi also had a father by the name of Dharmadeva at the land of Kozala as a twice born singer of the hymns of the sama veda. And Nara-Narayan Rishi has been mentioned more than a few times across other scriptures too.

 

 

Please forgive me if I sound offensive, I am really interested in shastric evidence that come from Veda Vyas, this is where authorititive scriptures come from. Please if you could provide any unambiguous, clearn and concrete evidence that Swami Narayan was God.

 

 

Thanks,

 

JHCal

[Guest guest]

 

Dear Guest,

 

Thank you so much for such a wonderful and informative treasure that you shared with us! This actually shows you are not a blind follower, you have firm faith and moreover you dont like to get into fanaticism or sentimentalism.

 

For the purpose of me first accepting scriptures like the the Vachnamrt and Sikshapatri, I would first need to accept Swaminarayan to be God, so it would be an idea to investigate first from Vedavyas' works, not to say the scriptures you mentioned are not bonafide, I am sure they are divine, but for the purpose of the questions raised, I would like to strictly refer to Vedvyas scriptures for now, I hope you dont mind. We can then refer to the scriptures you mentioned as we go one once the premise of Swami Narayan being God is established. I am sure you would agree in any debate or discussion one's work cannot be given credibility if the premise is to establish onself as credible.

 

 

 

 

What is the exact meaning of the words kalou swami vrushatmaja? Does it mean Dharmadeva?

 

Who wrote the Vishnu dharmottar?

 

 

The rest of the verses from the Bhagavad Gita, Mahabharat, Puranas you refered to could only imply Vishnu is God, doesnt substantiate the fact Swaminarayan is God.

 

 

 

 

Please if you could qoute the exact verses, chapter and book and their transliteration, I am very interested in these.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If Swaminarayan was God, then why was he only effective in India and not rest of the earth as the above verse says "relieve the earth of its burden" to me that says complete wipe out the impious but during the reign of him, irreligion was growing day by day in the western world.

 

 

 

 

 

Nar-Narayan Rishi also had a father by the name of Dharmadeva at the land of Kozala as a twice born singer of the hymns of the sama veda. And Nara-Narayan Rishi has been mentioned more than a few times across other scriptures too.

 

 

Please forgive me if I sound offensive, I am really interested in shastric evidence that come from Veda Vyas, this is where authorititive scriptures come from. Please if you could provide any unambiguous, clearn and concrete evidence that Swami Narayan was God.

 

 

Thanks,

 

JHCal

 

I clearly understand where you are coming from. As even Bhagwan Swaminarayan stated Himself in the Vachnamrut that He only regards Bhagwan Veda Vyas’s works as acceptable.

 

I will get the references as soon as possible. The yare all their in teh Satsangi Jivan. Also i forgot to mention the Viswaksen Samitah actually mentions the name Sahajanand. I will get that refernce too as soon as.

 

 

 

 

Kalou Swami Vrushatmaja = in Kaliyug I will come by the name of Swami the son of Dharmdev

 

Vishnu Dharmottar Puran is written by Veda Vyaas

 

“This is the purpose of My present incarnation—to relieve the earth of its burden,

protect the pious and kill the impious”

 

If you look at the Ramayan as well, Tulsidas and Valmiki on number of occasions describe of Bhagwan Shri Krishna rid Bhumi Mata of trouble. So you can say the same for that too then!!

 

Also if you look at the Skand Puran and the Vasudev Mahatmyam therein, and read the Shlokas for yourself you can see that the Avtaars mentioned along with their purpose are in chronological order. Now Nar Narayan were much earlier than Buddha and Kalki.

 

Yet the Shlok you refer to is in between Buddha Avtaar and Kalki avatar. Also Nar Narayan Dev were not born through a curse by a Muni. This muni was non other than Durvasa Muni in Badrik Ashram.

 

As that Shloka states such. Nor were they born in the Koshal Desh. They were born on the banks of Sabarmati River in Karnavati also known as Shrinagar or Ahmadabad in Gujarat. This is the reason why Bhagwan Swaminarayan created the temple of Nar Narayan Bhagwan and gave Nar Narayan avatar importance in Ahmadabad in Gujarat.

[Guest guest]

"Brahma is not supreme God. He himself worships the Lord. Brahmaji is just a creation of God used for the creation of this universe. How can Brahma be supreme God if he is affected by the attributes of Maya? What nonsense. He was created from the navel of Vairat Narayan who himself worships the Lord. Brahma Vishnu and Shiv were created for their reasons from the body of Vairat Narayan. However, in order to get to Akshardham they can be worshipped as well."

 

 

 

 

Yeah sure Bramha is not the supreme God. He is just a tiny part of the original creator.

 

I guess Passionate was trying to say Bramh not Bramha-the four headed God.And I heard that anyone with the Tapashya could bring self to such position to be a Bramha himself.

 

so many things to know.... we are still a tiniest drop... creation n the universe n the God... well a huge mystery. I don't think we could ever reach out for the slightest truth !!!

 

peace

[Guest guest]

Bramha is the supreme God.

[passionate-freak]

 

Bramha is the supreme God.

 

 

Dear Guest,

 

Bramha is not the Supreme God. According to the Shastras, Parabramh is the supreme one, not that four-headed God. You can get into anything to find the truth out. Just don't speak up anything of your mind rather you should go for the scriptures.

There's a nice anecdote regarding this. Bramha used to have five heads earlier but later the Bhairava hacked one head which spoke the evil of Lord Shiva and later realized his fault and started new journey. I forgot the whole plot so I'm sorry.

 

I mean no offence.

 

regards

[Guest guest]

Yeah this is true. Parbrahm Purshottam is supreme. The cuase of all. Sarva karan karanam. Brahmaji lives in Satyaloka within this universe. He is the father of the universe. But not God supreme. As he too seeks moksh.