Guest guest Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 Namaste, all Thank you very much for going into my doubts about negation. I am a layman and do not have much knowledge on the subject. I would be grateful if I can get responses to the following. I am not trying to make any comments etc. Shri Yajvan writes: ========================================================== <<<There remains "something" after everything has been discarded. That something is the real Self. My teacher calls it "vaccuum", but it does not matter how you call it, he says, it is only different names for the same thing>> ======================================================= What is the container for that “vacuum”? Where does this vacuum exist? If all the Sadhanas lead one to only a vacuum, what is the use of that Sadhana? Shri Sankarraman writes: ======================================================= <<< and lookiphenomenamething at the end>>> <<< conclding thereby thconcludinglf is an object of experience>>> <<< irreovcable experienirrevocableelf>>> <<< animating constantlyiences>>>> <<<< drik also is not the subject of anything.>>>> <<< One has to only look for the source of all phenomena, which is not paying attention to any phenomena, but to see the source>>> <<< only when one understands through self-enquiry that there is no all, nor is an idam, the understanding of there being nothing to be negated would arise. The idam and all are only upadhis>>>> ========================================================= Pardon me, but I am quite confused by the above statements particularly, some words such as Lookiphenomenamething, Thconcludinglf, Experienirrevocableelf, Constantlyiences, which I have never come across. It seems there are some typographical errors, but I cannot make out what exactly is conveyed through these words. Shri Sreenivasa Murthy writes =========================================== <<< The questioner, the doubter, the seeker will disappear completely>>> ======================================================= If the seeker disappears on getting enlightened, I doubt how many will dare to seek or go for enlightenment, although I can understand “The question of "WHO" and "HOW" will never remain when once you understand the commentaries of Sri Shankara on the above two Mantras” If what is meant is “seeking disappears” one can understand. I feel using difficult words and such statements take one, at least me, no where. Sri Purushottam Gupta writes: ==================================================== <<CAN THE DREAMER KNOW THE DREAM AS A DREAM IN THE DREAM. The scorching of the sun is true, the gnawing of the hunger is true ,the swelling of the head after some glimpse into Vedanta is true, true, true, and no negation is going to practically help out until the intoxication lasts...until mis identification lasts. Just wake up from 'you can't negate anything' into'there is nothing to negate'>> ================================================================ Thank you for sharing your knowledge in a lucid manner. I think the “intoxication” in the waking state is because of ignorance about Self, the World, and Ishvara. I may also be permitted, (also kindly correct me,) to say that what disappears, or what gets “negated”, is one’s knowledge, rather notions, about himself i.e. his self and the world and also Ishvara, because all such knowledge, notions, are subject to change, and they do change from time to time, and that is why there are so many interpretations/theories (?) regarding atma, creation, Isvara (god) etc. The Upanishads remove one’s ignorance about his own self, the world and Ishvara, and unfold the absolute knowledge which never changes as against the mithya-gnana we have about one’s self, the world and Ishvara. I may be wrong, the mithya-gnana, which we have because of ignorance about our own self, disappears and other than that, there is no other disappearance and this makes us to recognize and appreciate that there is ONLY GOD. What is there to negate and not to negate when there is only God? If at all one wants to “negate” let him negate his notions and once knowledge about self takes place the notions (ignorance) gets automatically negated. Everything is Divine once this recognition takes place, before also, but one starts appreciating this fact. The result is one with such knowledge and the wisdom as unfolded by the Upanishads crosses all sorrows (tarathi shokam), as he knows for certain sorrows and pleasures are all passing shows. With warm regards, Mani R. S. Mani New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 namaskaram to all, Shri Mani has asked question on an important subject. fundamentally, my feeling- i may be totally wrong- is that " negation" is a method used in teaching, and in school days when they were teaching geometry, they used to follow this method. when i came across this process of " neti" neti" in VEDANTA...i was thrilled to see that such a modern method is used in teaching even at that time...and we have no correct info about the period .... even in our medical professionl, when they arrive at a conclusion about a disease, the process they adopt is this " negation" ....the same in a way is followed in interviews when they select a person for a job or study or...etc. In the teaching of Vedanata also, this process is adopted very widely and i am afraid that one cannot point out or state that this negation is stated only in one case or other... it starts with a GURU...telling a student " in this universe, there are so many glalxies, and in one galaxy, there are so many stars ... each star may be with so many planets around it and one among those millions of stars in our small sun.. and around our small sun, there are so many planets and one of the planet is this small earth.. if we try to draw a picture of this even the sun will be a dot and our earth becomes a dot of a dot.. and on this dot earth, there is 2/3rd water and one third land and in this one third land, there are 5 continents and in one continent there is this sub continent called India, and in this small India, there are so many states and in one state, in one district, in one town, in one street, in one house , in one room...within this many sq ft...this I am sitting or sleeping ...when I am here, I am not there, etc... so where am I...can I be visible??? what am I... and sure the student now feels how insignificant he is.. and then the negation starts... so also in the process of teaching, we understand about the Ishta Devata, one, many, with form, and later without form... this process is very beautiful and needs time and inclination, . and positively a step by step learning.. I am sure we can get enough number of books written by Sw Chinmayanand, Sw Dayananda, Sw Paramarthananda, listening to Shri Sudhanshu Maharaj and so many of them on TV, if more interested reading articles by Dr Gopalakrishnan of Indian Institute of Cultural Heritage - Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani > wrote: ========================================================== ======================================================= Shri Sankarraman writes: ======================================================= <<< and lookiphenomenamething at the end>>> <<< conclding thereby thconcludinglf is an object of experience>>> <<< irreovcable experienirrevocableelf>>> <<< animating constantlyiences>>>> <<<< drik also is not the subject of anything.>>>> <<< One has to only look for the source of all phenomena, which is not paying attention to any phenomena, but to see the source>>> <<< only when one understands through self-enquiry that there is no all, nor is an idam, the understanding of there being nothing to be negated would arise. The idam and all are only upadhis>>>> ========================================================= Pardon me, but I am quite confused by the above statements particularly, some words such as Lookiphenomenamething, Thconcludinglf, Experienirrevocableelf, Constantlyiences, which I have never come across. It seems there are some typographical errors, but I cannot make out what exactly is conveyed through these words. Dear Mr Mani, Sorry for the balderdash in my writing. That is on account of constant erroneous signal that I am getting in my key-board. How it happens after even I verify the contents, I don't know. I wrote about this to the group sending a revised message. But somehow it has not appeared. My connection is also bad. Sorry for this inconvenience. Please bear with this. This is unintentional. I feel embarrassed about it. I think I should type in the word, save it, and then send it. The spell check facility does this havoc. May the memebers excuse me. which was not cast. I request the moderators to approve the revised message sent by me. with warm regards Sankarraman Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani > wrote: Namaste, all =================================================================================================================== Dear Sir, The dissolving of the drisya in the drik, as per the process of neti, neti, does not involve an intellectual analysis, negating the objective pheonmena, looking for something still objective at the end.. This, according to Ramana, is only a kosa-vichara and not the atmavichara. Bhaghavan clearly says that the mind that negates everything will not negate itself, conclding thereby that the Self is also an object of experience by the unreal mind. The quest, on the other hand, consists in turning back all drishya in the drik till even the relative drik, the individual subject creating the subject-object dichotomy, also vanishes, and there is no experience of any kind- any vision,sound, etc. Bhaghavan says that prior to the irreovcable awareness of the Self taking place -experience is a misnomer, but one has to use that word perforce- there is the awakening of sphurana, the one awareness that lights up experiences that are devoid of being, and the sphurana also dies, ultimately there being no residual being left to contemplate, know anything. Drig-drisya viveka consists in understanding the position that drisya has no reality independent of the drik, and the drik also is not the subject of anything. There is nothing to be negated. This will result in anavastha dhosa, infinite regress. One has to only look for the source of all phenomena, which is not paying attention to any phenomena, but to see the source. This is not a logical, intellectual, process. Logic is only a tool of the unreal mind, which cannot be relied upon in knowing the first principles of life. In the mantra, 'Sarvam Khalu Idam Brahma,' only when one understands through self-enquiry that there is no all, nor is an idam, the understanding of there being nothing to be negated would arise. The, ' idam' and 'all' are only upadhis. yours ever in Bhaghavan Ramana, Sankarraman Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 Dear Sri Sankarraman: There is no one possible source for your errors. But let provide one of the possibilities: When the connection is bad, what you type will not appear immediately on the screen (what you see on the screen is what has been transmitted to the internet). Since you are not aware, you seem to be typing repeated strokes which creates unexpected errors. The best solution for you is to prepare what you want to post using a wordprocessor or Notepad for which is independent of the quality of your internet connection. After completing your enter message, just cut and paste on the "Post Message" screen. This will ensure reducing your unexpected errors. Please consult your neighbor or friend with some computer expertise and get better clarification for your problem. With my warmest regards, Harih Om! Ram Chandran advaitin, Ganesan Sankarraman <shnkaran> wrote: > > Dear Mr Mani, > Sorry for the balderdash in my writing. That is on account of constant erroneous signal that I am getting in my key-board. How it happens after even I verify the contents, I don't know. I wrote about this to the group sending a revised message. But somehow it has not appeared. My connection is also bad. Sorry for this inconvenience. Please bear with this. This is unintentional. I feel embarrassed about it. I think I should type in the word, save it, and then send it. The spell check facility does this havoc. May the memebers excuse me. which was not cast. I request the moderators to approve the revised message sent by me. > with warm regards > Sankarraman > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote: > > > Namaste, all > I hope, the learned members of the group will kindly help in clearing my doubts with regard to "neti neti" which involves negating something to "arrive" at Brahman or Self, or to logically appreciate Brahman or Self as the the one and the only substratum of all known and unknown. > What exactly is to be negated? > Is the negator, being mithya, also need to be negated, and in that case who will be the second negator? > The Upanishad says: > "Sarvam Khalu Idam Brahma" > i.e. all (are) indeed Brahman. > What is the exact meaning of "Idam" in this context? > In the context of this Mantra, is it necessary to negate any thing? > Is it necessary to do any negation at all to "experience" the Self? If it is necessary, who is the negator, and who is going to experience the Self? > Warm regards > Mani > > > R. S. Mani Nameste Sri Mani, I don't think that I can answer all of your questions, but I would like to attempt to answer a few (if I can). Let's take the last question first. Is it necessary to do any negation to experience the Self? I would say definitely not. You are already experiencing the Self. The Self is its own experience, and when you say the word `I,' that word labels the Self, which you are, which is its own Self-experience right now. And it is the Self-experience that every single person is having. So there is no one behind that Self to experience it. Just as it is not necessary to bring in another sun to light up the sun. The sun is already lit. The Self is already experienced. Another question along similar lines might be, is it necessary to do any negation to recognize that the Self experience which I am already having is Brahman? The answer to that question IMO is a definite "yes." You asked about the practice of `neti neti,' or negation. It is my understanding that the process of `neti, neti,' in the teachings of Vedanta is considered incomplete without what is called the `positive assertion.' The pointing to That which you in fact are. So how is all of that done? First it is pointed out that everything which your mind has previously taken your Self to be one with and a product of, is changing. Your mind is changing, your body is changing, your thoughts, moods and emotions are changing. Whatever changes is not `me.' So that is the process of 'neti, neti,' of negation. Then what is the positive assertion? What is that? It is pointed out that while everything which your mind has previously taken yourself to be changes, there is something about you which does not. What does not? What is there about `me' which does not change? If you examine your experience carefully you can see that while everything having to do with the body/mind/sense organs changes, 'I' do not. I am present to every changing, thought, mood, emotion and bodily sensation. I am always here. I never go anywhere. While everything else comes and goes which the mind had taken to be me, I do not. So these two, `neti, neti,' and `positive assertion' need to be taught together. It is the mind which performs the function of negation and positive assertion. And along the way, the mind as being `who I am' is negated in this process. In the end that which cannot be negated, that which does not change, is seen to be `me.' (Who I am) And since `I' am experientially here, I exist, I don't go anywhere, I do not change, and I am present to all changing experience, that `I' can be pointed out by the teacher as that which always exists without change. That `I' is here and experienced right now. That 'I' had previously been taken by the mind to be one with and a product of the body/mind/sense organs. But it can clearly be seen that everything to do with the body/mind comes and goes, while `I' do not. Then it is pointed out that this `I' which does not come and go is Brahman. This `I' which in fact, the mind has always known as who I am, is Brahman. So when the mind directly recognizes that fact. That `I' exist, but `I' am in no way dependent upon anything which can be negated, anything having to do with the body/mind/sense organs, anything which is time bound or limited, then that is moksha, or jnanam. If there are mistakes in the above, they reflect the limit of my understanding, which is by no means complete. I am very much a student. Pranams, Durga Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin Homepage at: Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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