Shiva's teachings (Kalchakra navamsa)

December 3, 2004

Dear Narasimha,

I have not disputed the Dasha order given by Parashara. Neither do I

dispute your knowledge of Kalachakra dasha. I also agree with you that

the Kalachakra dasha have not been understood in depth by Astrologers.

I agree that only Lord Shiva is the authority over Kalachakra, but

would like to point out that nobody has, so far, given the order of

Antardasha given by Lord Shiva to Lady Parvati. This is also the

opinion of many early day astrologers.Certain shlokas by their

inaccuracy, indicate that not all the shlokas attributed to Lord Shiva

emanated from the Lord. So just because some one says that Lord Shiva

said this,while giving a different set of parameters than those given

by Parashara or other Jyotish Pravartakas, those parameter would not

automatically qualify as having come from the Lord himself. You are a

Learned Sanskrit Scholar, and are aware that Sanskrit underwent change

in Grammar, usage and even meter in which shlokas were written through

different Yugas, and perhaps will be able to find from the shlokas

whether they are from ancient Sanskrit or modern Sanskrit. I urge you

to look at this aspect in order to ascertain as to what could have

actually come through Lord Shiva. That precisely is the reason I am

trying to match theories advanced to actual dasha order, since they do

not seem to match. I am certain that the Addya Guru Maheshwar would not

give a particular order unless there is a particular order to it.

Getting back to original thread, You had said that the Dashas relate to

Savya and Apasavya and follow that order. For record, here is what you

said.

"The dasha cycle of Ashwini 2nd pada (i.e.

Taurus Amsa) is Cp, Aq, Pi, Sc, Li, Vi, Cn, Le and Ge, because these

are the Kalachakra Navamshas of the nine Nakshatra Padas in Taurus

(Krittika 2, 3, 4, Rohini 1, 2, 3, 4, Mrigashira 1, 2). The first 3

signs in the dasha cycle go zodiacally, because they are Padas of

Krittika (a Savya Nakshatra). The anti-zodiacal progression starts from

Rohini 1st pada, because Rohini is an Apasavya Nakshatra. Ashwini,

Bharani and Krittika are Savya Nakshatras. Rohini, Mrigashira and Ardra

are Apasavya Nakshatras."

As you can see, you did state that the progression is zodiacal for

Apasavya Nakshatra Padas and anti zodiacal for Apasavya Nakshatra

Padas. Hence the query about change of direction in Apasavya Nakshatra

in its own two Padas.

You have given three shlokas and their contents are also not disputed,

though translation of one does not appear to be correct. But this is

always subjective.

The shloka 2 given by you indicates order of

Aries to Pisces by Lords of the Bhava which are indicative of the

Navamshas alloted to Nakshatra pada and are linear. Though wordings and

sometimes interpretation might differ, all texts say the same thing

covered by all the shlokas cited. For clarity's sake in case of 2nd

shloka, it is:

Sanskrit Names: Bhauma

Shukra Budha Indu Arka Saumya Bhargava

Mantri Shani Manda Guru.

English equivalents: Mars Venus Mercury Moon Sun

Mercury Venus Jupiter Saturn Saturn

Jupiter

Lords of Rasi Aries Taurus Gemini Cancer

Leo Virgo Libra Sagittarius Capricorn

Aquarius Pisces.

Now, I have not disputed this

order of Navamsha as it is same as that in all texts whether given by

Shiva or otherwise. The reference to "Bhavandhipah",

however, clearly tells that what are given are lords of the house/Rasi.Incidentally,

I think the shloka is telling that the Rasi occupied by Nakshtra Pada

fixed in Dwadasha Chakra would be the Navamsha for that pada and no

more.However this is a personal interpretation and let us not dwell on

it. I do not dispute the order given by the sage Parashara,

who tells us that it was given by Lord Shiva to Lady Parvati. Neither

is the point of dispute, I was referring to why the order changes, the

necessity to understand this if one has to understand correct

interpretation of Kalachakra Dasha and seeking an insight into the

dasha order, which does not follow any set pattern across various

Padas. I have not seen, so far a logical repeatable sequence being

explained, barring what has been the order specifically given by sages.

The only uniformity observed, by me, is that

1st pada of Ashwini and Krittika cluster of first Five Savya Nakshatras

each, falling in Aries Amsha and Last Pada of Mrigashira cluster of

Four Apasavya Nakshatras are exactly reverse of each other and this

continues with 2nd of Ashwini and Krittika Savya cluster matching

reverse of 3rd Pada of Mrigashira Cluster.Similarly for 1st pada of

Bharani Cluster Dasha order being exactly reverse of that of last Pada

of Ardra and Rohini Cluster and so on through out the 1st and 3rd

cluster of Ashwini, Krittika Cluster with Mrigashira Cluster and

Bharani Cluster with Ardra and Rohini Cluster. There is no deviation

here. I am therefore certain that there is a specific reason the Dashas

turn in apparent illogical pattern and have not so far seen any logical

explanation for this being offered. This is also the reason I think

that unless one understands the motion of time through Kalachakra, one

would understand the reason of sudden changes and jumps in Kalachakra

dasha orders in only certain Padas whereas dashaas remain linear in

other Padas.

What I am asking is if, as you indicated, the order changes based on

Amshas within the pada Amsha according to whether the Amshas within

Amshas (as proposed by you) belong to Savya or Apasavya Nakshatras,

why within two Padas of a Nakshatra it changes from Apasavya to Savya

and again to Apasavya as in the case of Rohini 4th pada and Mrigashira

1st and 2nd Pada? Krittika 2,3,4 as you said, gives Zodiacal order of

Rasis Cp,Aqu, Pisces. Then Rohini1,2,3 Padas the anti zodiacal order is

seen in Scorpio, Libra, Virgo in 4th pada Mandooki Gati occurs and anti

zodiacal order is maintained to Cancer. No problem so far.Next comes

Mrigashira Nakshatra which also is Apasavya Nakshtra and per the theory

advanced, should be anti zodiacal, but it is not the order changes to

Zodiacal and Dasha 1st Pada of Mrigashira is Leo. Now if for the sake

of hypothesis, with a stretch of imagination, we call the Zodiacal

direction being reverse of Anti zodiacal, the next Dasha being anti

zodical to Gemini with Mandooki Gati does not allow either theories to

hold much water. The Amsha within Amshas followed are also not in the

order indicated by Shiva, that you quoted.

I hope I am not trying your patience, but Kalachakra Dasha does

interest me. If you feel I should stop these queries, do let me know,

as my nature is to go to the bottom of any theory and test it on the

anvil of pure logic and sometimes I may be trying other's patience.

Chandrashekhar.

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

Namaste Chandrashekhar ji,

> I do not find Parashara advising further division of Amsha

allotted to

> Nakshtra Padas in to nine and allotting linear Nakshatra

Padas to them.

Well, Parasara said he was only

teaching the saara (essence) of what Shiva taught Parvati.

Shiva taught Parvati:

"savye to prathamaamso vai deha

ityabhidheeyate

jeevastadvipareetaamso deha

jeevaaviti smritau"

Thus, deha and jeeva are defined as

the FIRST AMSA and LAST AMSA of the sign. Thus, it clear that the dasa

cycle of a sign is nothing but the nine amsas within that sign!

When we say that the dasa cycle of

Aswini 1st pada (Aries navamsa) starts with Ar and ends with Sg, we say

so because Ar and Sg are the first and last amsas of Ar. When we say

that the dasa cycle of Aswini 2nd pada (Taurus navamsa) starts with Cp

and ends with Ge, we say so because Cp and Ge are the first last amsas

of Taurus. It is quite clear from what Shiva taught. The word

"prathamaamsah" is quite unambiguous and it means "first amsa".

> However treating it as a viable theory to solve the order

of dasha order,

> as suggested, even here the explanation offered does not

hold water.

You should read all that I wrote

carefully before declaring that it "does not hold water". It does

hold water and much more.

> For example, why does order of Rohini 1,2,3,4 i.e."Sc, Li, Vi, Cn," not

> remain linear (Apasavya direction) only in the last Pada (3

to4)? Also

> according to what haas been given by Parashara Rohini 4th

pada falls in

> Leo and not Cancer. And continuing the Apasavya theory

further why

> does another Apasavya Nakshatra Mrigashira Pada 1 and 2,

that follow

> according to the theory advanced, turn Savya to Leo and

then Apasavya

> to Gem. in Mandooki gati?

There is no basis for this "linear"

fashion. You are just assuming this linearity. The relevant verses of

Shiva are:

"bhauma sukra budhendvarka saumya

bhrigvaara mantrinah

sarirmando guruschaiva navaamsa

bhavanaadhipaah

aswi punarvasu hasta moola

proshthapadaadishu

trishveshu ganayenmeshaat

praadakshinya kramena tu

rohini makha vaisakha vaishnavaadi

kramena tu

vrischikaadyamsakaanaam apasavya

kramena tu"

These three consecutive verses

clearly lay the foundation for Kalachakra navamsa. The first verse says that the navamsa rulers of

the 12 padas of 3 nakshatras in each group are always Mars, Venus,

Mercury, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Saturn and

Jupiter. This order of lordships of the twelve padas in each group is

the primary criterion in the definition of navamsa and cannot be

broken. This applies to savya and apasavya nakshatra groups.

This verse only gives the rulers of

the amsas and does not specify the signs. In the next two verses, Shiva

clarifies the exact signs also. In groups of 3 nakshatras starting from

Aswini, Punarvasu etc, Parasara says that you start from Aries and go

forward. The basic criterion of course is that the lords defined in the

previous verse should be obtained. Thus, the 4 padas of Aswini, Bharani

and Krittika go into Ar, Ta, Ge, Cn, Le, Vi, Li, Sc, Sg, Cp, Aq and Pi

in navamsa. But this applies only to 15 stars.

The next verse specifies the

navamsas for the remaining 12 stars (apasavya stars). Shiva says that

we star from Scorpio and go backwards for groups of 3 stars starting

from Rohini, Makha etc. Again, he does not specify the entire list of

12 signs, but he expects us to figure it out by using this verse with

verse 1 quoted above. Verse 1 gives the order of lords and verse 3

gives Scorpio as the starting sign. Please note that the lords of 12

navamsas have to be Mars, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus,

Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Saturn and Jupiter, just like in the case of

savya nakshatras. How do we get them if we start from Scorpio and go

backwards? Naturally, this requires jumps around Leo and Cancer.

Otherwise the order given in verse 1 is broken. That is the primary

criterion and cannot be broken. This is the basis of mandooki

and markati gatis.

In fact, when Parasara defined

navamsa, he too basically defined it the same way Shiva did in verse 1

above. We only know the lords of various amsas in each sign and don't

know the exact signs those lords correspond to. For example, the 4th

navamsa of Taurus is ruled by Mars. Whether the corresponding sign is

Aries or Scorpio is not clear. Thus, it is possible to come up with

different navamsa definitions within the basic definition!

The cyclical navamsa is normally

used for seeing marriage, dharma, abilities etc. But it is clear in Shiva's verses that there is

an alternative navamsa. Shiva just called it navamsa. For clarity, I am

calling it Kalachakra navamsa.

A few verses after defining the

navamsa chart in the above three verses, Shiva taught the verse I gave

at the beginning of this mail. That defines deha and jeeva of a sign as

the first and last amsas in it. In verses following it,

Shiva listed the deha rasi, jeeva rasi and individual signs in the dasa

cycle of each sign. One can notice that deha rasi given is indeed the

first amsa of the sign if you use the definition in the three verses

quoted. Similarly, jeeva rasi is indeed the last amsa and the dasa

cycle perfectly corresponds to the nine amsas in the sign. You just

have to use the modified navamsa chart defined by Shiva.

If you

read what I wrote above carefully, you will see that this does hold

water and is based on solid principles. One should give it serious

consideration before rejecting it (which is anyway not my loss). This

is not my own theory. This is a logical deduction from the teachings of

Shiva.

I am indebted to Sreeman Tirumala

Samudrala Venkata Raghavacharya, whose 1930 translation of Shiva's

teachings on Kalachakra dasa were very useful in my researches. I read

many authors, but they did not answer my questions. While Sri

Raghavacharya's translation was intentionally vague at places, the

verses were quite clear. My questions were answered.

Shiva gave the readings of various

antardasas in various mahadasas. He gave 2 results (savya/apasavya) for

108 mahadasa-antardasa combinations. While Sri Ramanarayanan and I get

only those mahadasa-antardasa combinations covered by Shiva, Sri Raman

Suprajarama, Sri Sathiyanarayana Gupta, Sri Manish Pandit, Sri K N Rao,

Sri Sumeet Chugh, Sri Santhanam etc get mahadasa-antardasa combinations

not covered by Shiva. How is it possible? Shiva - and not even Parasara

- is the ultimate authority on Kalachakra dasa.

I am 100% confident that most

scholars have gotten Kalachakra dasa wrong until now. I myself got it

wrong in the past. Even the village priest who criticized my old

version seems to have gotten it wrong. If time has come for Shiva's

true teachings to become widely understood and used, it will happen in

the years to come.

Those who are interested in this

should not miss Sanjay ji's lecture on Kalachakra dasa at Mumbai

conference. It is the fruit of a long research/study. Please give us

your serious consideration, though it is difficult to change one's

long-held views.

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

-----

Original Message -----

Chandrashekhar

To:

Narasimha

P.V.R. Rao

Cc:

vedic astrology

Sent:

Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:07 PM

Subject:

Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Kalchakra navamsa

Dear Narasimha,

I have never said that the dasha tables be taken as if by magic.I am a

bit confused by what you are saying. The theory of the dasha order

changing merely on account of Nakshatras changing from Savya to

Apasavya , does not hold water if one looks at dasha order of

individual Padas minutely.

I do not find Parashara advising further division of Amsha allotted to

Nakshtra Padas in to nine and allotting linear Nakshatra Padas to them.

However treating it as a viable theory to solve the order of dasha

order, as suggested, even here the explanation offered does not hold

water.

For example, why does order of Rohini 1,2,3,4 i.e."Sc, Li, Vi, Cn," not remain

linear (Apasavya

direction) only in the last Pada (3 to4)? Also according to what haas

been given by Parashara Rohini 4th pada falls in Leo and not Cancer.

And continuing the Apasavya theory further why does another Apasavya

Nakshatra Mrigashira Pada 1 and 2, that follow according to the theory

advanced, turn Savya to Leo and then Apasavya to Gem. in Mandooki gati?

Further Mrigashira 1st pada falls in Cancer and 2nd in Gemini, in

linear fashion. Parashara has specifically given how the Rasi Padas are

to be allotted to Dwadasha Rasi Chakra.

If my memory does not fail me, Parashara specifically states that the

Rasi that is occupied by a Nakshatra pada is to be treated as its

Navamsha.

Please correct me if I have not understood how Nakshatra Padas are to

be allotted to Dwadasha Rasi Chakra as indicated by Parashara.

Chandrashekhar.

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

Namaste Chandrashakhar ji,

> There is much that is not

understood in the Kalachakra Dasha as given in

> Astrological texts. The primary being, why in certain Nakshatra

Padas,

> the dasha progresses in linear order and why in some it jumps back

and

> forth ? Unless this is understood, I feel it is difficult to

understand

> the logic and principles behind application of Kalachakra Dasha.

This is what I have been saying

all along. As long as you treat the dasa cycle tables as some magic,

you have not understood Kalachakra dasa and you can make a mistake or

two. The key is to understand the logic behind the tables.

I tried to address this in some

of my previous mails.

The dasa cycle of Aswini 1st

pada (i.e. Aries amsa) is Ar, Ta, Ge, Cn, Le, Vi, Li, Sc and Sg,

because there are the kalachakra navamsas (or just navamsas) of the

nine nakshatra padas in Aries (Aswini 1, 2, 3, 4, Bharani 1, 2, 3, 4,

Krittika 1).

The dasa cycle of Aswini 2nd

pada (i.e. Taurus amsa) is Cp, Aq, Pi, Sc, Li, Vi, Cn, Le and Ge,

because these are the kalachakra navamsas of the nine nakshatra padas

in Taurus (Krittika 2, 3, 4, Rohini 1, 2, 3, 4, Mrigasira 1, 2). The

first 3 signs in the dasa cycle go zodiacally, because they are padas

of Krittika (a savya nakshatra). The anti-zodiacal progression starts

from Rohini 1st pada, because Rohini is an apasavya nakshatra. Aswini,

Bharani and Krittika are savya nakshatras. Rohini, Mrigasira and Ardra

are apasavya nakshatras.

Kalachakra navamsa is a

variation of navamsa. When defining navamsa, Parasara only said that

the lords of the 9 equal parts of Aries are Mars, Venus, Mercury, Moon,

Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter; the lords of the 9 equal parts

of Taurus are Saturn, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Sun

and Mercury, etc. He did not specify the signs. The signs we normally

take result in a cyclical navamsa. Kalachakra navamsa is composed of

two cycles - one zodiacal for savya nakshatra padas and the other

anti-zodiacal for apasavya nakshatra padas. This kalachakra navamsa

also fits the basic navamsa definition given by Parasara. So I consider

that it is very much granted by Parasara.

Kalachakra dasa is based on

these kalachakra navamsas.

So Pi in the dasa cycle of

Aswini 2nd pada is clearly Krittika 4th pada and Sc coming after it in

the dasa cycle is clearly Rohini 1st pada.

If you extend this approach to

the entire Kalachakra dasa table, you will see that there is a clear

structure and it is nor arbitrary. You will also realize that mahadas

themselves correspond to various nakshatra padas.

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

December 3, 2004

Namaste Chandrashekhar ji,

Let me fill in on the table of navamsas given by Lord Shiva. Because he

explicitly mentioned starting from Aries and Scorpio, there is no ambiguity.

Sanskrit Names: Bhauma Shukra Budha Indu Arka Saumya Bhrigu Ara

Mantri Shani Manda GuruEnglish names: Mars Venus

Mercury Moon Sun Mercury Venus Mars Jupiter Saturn

Saturn Jupiter Rasi owned: Aries Taurus Gemini Cancer Leo

Virgo Libra Scorpio Sagittarius Capricorn Aquarius PiscesOther rasi

owned: Scorpio Libra Virgo Cancer Leo Gemini Taurus Aries

Pisces Aquarius Capricorn Sagittarius

Navamsa of: Nk1 P1 Nk1 P2 Nk1 P3 Nk1 P4 Nk2 P1 Nk2 P2 Nk2 P3 Nk2

P4 Nk3 P1 Nk2 P2 Nk2 P3 Nk2 P4

(Nk1, Nk2, Nk3 are 3 nakshtras in each savya/apasavya trio, P1, P2, P3 and P4

are the four padas)

The first set of rasis is taken for savya nakshatras (organized in groups of 3

stars). The second set of rasis is taken for apasavya nakshatras (organized in

groups of 3 stars).

Both groups have the lords in the same order as given in Shiva's verse 1 quoted

by me yesterday. The second and third verses say that the signs start from

Aries and Scorpio in savya and apasavya nakshatra groups. The two rasi lists

given above implement that dictum. So the list above implements the dictum in

the 3 verses quoted yesterday and shows how Kalachakra navamsa chart is cast.

Parasara also mentioned this chart. This chart is the basis of Kalachakra dasa.

You are not trying my patience, but I am running out of time. So I will not

engage in a full-fledged discussion with you on Simhavalokana gati, other

gatis, Kalachakra navamsa etc. Hopefully, we will meet in person oneday and it

is always so much easier to discuss in person!

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

-

Chandrashekhar

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

Cc: vedic astrology

Friday, December 03, 2004 5:04 PM

Re: Shiva's teachings (Re: Kalchakra navamsa)

Dear Narasimha,I have not disputed the Dasha order given by Parashara. Neither

do I dispute your knowledge of Kalachakra dasha. I also agree with you that the

Kalachakra dasha have not been understood in depth by Astrologers. I agree that

only Lord Shiva is the authority over Kalachakra, but would like to point out

that nobody has, so far, given the order of Antardasha given by Lord Shiva to

Lady Parvati. This is also the opinion of many early day astrologers.Certain

shlokas by their inaccuracy, indicate that not all the shlokas attributed to

Lord Shiva emanated from the Lord. So just because some one says that Lord

Shiva said this,while giving a different set of parameters than those given by

Parashara or other Jyotish Pravartakas, those parameter would not automatically

qualify as having come from the Lord himself. You are a Learned Sanskrit

Scholar, and are aware that Sanskrit underwent change in Grammar, usage and

even meter in which shlokas were written through different Yugas, and perhaps

will be able to find from the shlokas whether they are from ancient Sanskrit or

modern Sanskrit. I urge you to look at this aspect in order to ascertain as to

what could have actually come through Lord Shiva. That precisely is the reason

I am trying to match theories advanced to actual dasha order, since they do not

seem to match. I am certain that the Addya Guru Maheshwar would not give a

particular order unless there is a particular order to it.Getting back to

original thread, You had said that the Dashas relate to Savya and Apasavya and

follow that order. For record, here is what you said."The dasha cycle of

Ashwini 2nd pada (i.e. Taurus Amsa) is Cp, Aq, Pi, Sc, Li, Vi, Cn, Le and Ge,

because these are the Kalachakra Navamshas of the nine Nakshatra Padas in

Taurus (Krittika 2, 3, 4, Rohini 1, 2, 3, 4, Mrigashira 1, 2). The first 3

signs in the dasha cycle go zodiacally, because they are Padas of Krittika (a

Savya Nakshatra). The anti-zodiacal progression starts from Rohini 1st pada,

because Rohini is an Apasavya Nakshatra. Ashwini, Bharani and Krittika are

Savya Nakshatras. Rohini, Mrigashira and Ardra are Apasavya Nakshatras."As you

can see, you did state that the progression is zodiacal for Apasavya Nakshatra

Padas and anti zodiacal for Apasavya Nakshatra Padas. Hence the query about

change of direction in Apasavya Nakshatra in its own two Padas.You have given

three shlokas and their contents are also not disputed, though translation of

one does not appear to be correct. But this is always subjective.The shloka 2

given by you indicates order of Aries to Pisces by Lords of the Bhava which are

indicative of the Navamshas alloted to Nakshatra pada and are linear. Though

wordings and sometimes interpretation might differ, all texts say the same

thing covered by all the shlokas cited. For clarity's sake in case of 2nd

shloka, it is:Sanskrit Names: Bhauma Shukra Budha Indu

Arka Saumya Bhargava Mantri Shani Manda

Guru.English equivalents: Mars Venus Mercury Moon Sun

Mercury Venus Jupiter Saturn Saturn

JupiterLords of Rasi Aries Taurus Gemini Cancer Leo

Virgo Libra Sagittarius Capricorn Aquarius

Pisces.Now, I have not disputed this order of Navamsha as it is same as that in

all texts whether given by Shiva or otherwise. The reference to "Bhavandhipah",

however, clearly tells that what are given are lords of the

house/Rasi.Incidentally, I think the shloka is telling that the Rasi occupied

by Nakshtra Pada fixed in Dwadasha Chakra would be the Navamsha for that pada

and no more.However this is a personal interpretation and let us not dwell on

it. I do not dispute the order given by the sage Parashara, who tells us that

it was given by Lord Shiva to Lady Parvati. Neither is the point of dispute, I

was referring to why the order changes, the necessity to understand this if one

has to understand correct interpretation of Kalachakra Dasha and seeking an

insight into the dasha order, which does not follow any set pattern across

various Padas. I have not seen, so far a logical repeatable sequence being

explained, barring what has been the order specifically given by sages.The only

uniformity observed, by me, is that 1st pada of Ashwini and Krittika cluster of

first Five Savya Nakshatras each, falling in Aries Amsha and Last Pada of

Mrigashira cluster of Four Apasavya Nakshatras are exactly reverse of each

other and this continues with 2nd of Ashwini and Krittika Savya cluster

matching reverse of 3rd Pada of Mrigashira Cluster.Similarly for 1st pada of

Bharani Cluster Dasha order being exactly reverse of that of last Pada of

Ardra and Rohini Cluster and so on through out the 1st and 3rd cluster of

Ashwini, Krittika Cluster with Mrigashira Cluster and Bharani Cluster with

Ardra and Rohini Cluster. There is no deviation here. I am therefore certain

that there is a specific reason the Dashas turn in apparent illogical pattern

and have not so far seen any logical explanation for this being offered. This

is also the reason I think that unless one understands the motion of time

through Kalachakra, one would understand the reason of sudden changes and jumps

in Kalachakra dasha orders in only certain Padas whereas dashaas remain linear

in other Padas.What I am asking is if, as you indicated, the order changes

based on Amshas within the pada Amsha according to whether the Amshas within

Amshas (as proposed by you) belong to Savya or Apasavya Nakshatras, why within

two Padas of a Nakshatra it changes from Apasavya to Savya and again to Apasavya

as in the case of Rohini 4th pada and Mrigashira 1st and 2nd Pada? Krittika

2,3,4 as you said, gives Zodiacal order of Rasis Cp,Aqu, Pisces. Then

Rohini1,2,3 Padas the anti zodiacal order is seen in Scorpio, Libra, Virgo in

4th pada Mandooki Gati occurs and anti zodiacal order is maintained to Cancer.

No problem so far.Next comes Mrigashira Nakshatra which also is Apasavya

Nakshtra and per the theory advanced, should be anti zodiacal, but it is not

the order changes to Zodiacal and Dasha 1st Pada of Mrigashira is Leo. Now if

for the sake of hypothesis, with a stretch of imagination, we call the Zodiacal

direction being reverse of Anti zodiacal, the next Dasha being anti zodical to

Gemini with Mandooki Gati does not allow either theories to hold much water.

The Amsha within Amshas followed are also not in the order indicated by Shiva,

that you quoted.I hope I am not trying your patience, but Kalachakra Dasha does

interest me. If you feel I should stop these queries, do let me know, as my

nature is to go to the bottom of any theory and test it on the anvil of pure

logic and sometimes I may be trying other's patience.Chandrashekhar.Narasimha

P.V.R. Rao wrote:

Namaste Chandrashekhar ji,

> I do not find Parashara advising further division of Amsha allotted to

> Nakshtra Padas in to nine and allotting linear Nakshatra Padas to them.

Well, Parasara said he was only teaching the saara (essence) of what Shiva taught Parvati.

Shiva taught Parvati:

"savye to prathamaamso vai deha ityabhidheeyate

jeevastadvipareetaamso deha jeevaaviti smritau"

Thus, deha and jeeva are defined as the FIRST AMSA and LAST AMSA of the sign.

Thus, it clear that the dasa cycle of a sign is nothing but the nine amsas

within that sign!

When we say that the dasa cycle of Aswini 1st pada (Aries navamsa) starts with

Ar and ends with Sg, we say so because Ar and Sg are the first and last amsas

of Ar. When we say that the dasa cycle of Aswini 2nd pada (Taurus navamsa)

starts with Cp and ends with Ge, we say so because Cp and Ge are the first last

amsas of Taurus. It is quite clear from what Shiva taught. The word

"prathamaamsah" is quite unambiguous and it means "first amsa".

> However treating it as a viable theory to solve the order of dasha order,

> as suggested, even here the explanation offered does not hold water.

You should read all that I wrote carefully before declaring that it "does not

hold water". It does hold water and much more.

> For example, why does order of Rohini 1,2,3,4 i.e."Sc, Li, Vi, Cn," not

> remain linear (Apasavya direction) only in the last Pada (3 to4)? Also

> according to what haas been given by Parashara Rohini 4th pada falls in

> Leo and not Cancer. And continuing the Apasavya theory further why

> does another Apasavya Nakshatra Mrigashira Pada 1 and 2, that follow

> according to the theory advanced, turn Savya to Leo and then Apasavya

> to Gem. in Mandooki gati?

There is no basis for this "linear" fashion. You are just assuming this

linearity. The relevant verses of Shiva are:

"bhauma sukra budhendvarka saumya bhrigvaara mantrinah

sarirmando guruschaiva navaamsa bhavanaadhipaah

aswi punarvasu hasta moola proshthapadaadishu

trishveshu ganayenmeshaat praadakshinya kramena tu

rohini makha vaisakha vaishnavaadi kramena tu

vrischikaadyamsakaanaam apasavya kramena tu"

These three consecutive verses clearly lay the foundation for Kalachakra

navamsa. The first verse says that the navamsa rulers of the 12 padas of 3

nakshatras in each group are always Mars, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Sun, Mercury,

Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Saturn and Jupiter. This order of lordships of

the twelve padas in each group is the primary criterion in the definition of

navamsa and cannot be broken. This applies to savya and apasavya nakshatra

groups.

This verse only gives the rulers of the amsas and does not specify the signs. In

the next two verses, Shiva clarifies the exact signs also. In groups of 3

nakshatras starting from Aswini, Punarvasu etc, Parasara says that you start

from Aries and go forward. The basic criterion of course is that the lords

defined in the previous verse should be obtained. Thus, the 4 padas of Aswini,

Bharani and Krittika go into Ar, Ta, Ge, Cn, Le, Vi, Li, Sc, Sg, Cp, Aq and Pi

in navamsa. But this applies only to 15 stars.

The next verse specifies the navamsas for the remaining 12 stars (apasavya

stars). Shiva says that we star from Scorpio and go backwards for groups of 3

stars starting from Rohini, Makha etc. Again, he does not specify the entire

list of 12 signs, but he expects us to figure it out by using this verse with

verse 1 quoted above. Verse 1 gives the order of lords and verse 3 gives

Scorpio as the starting sign. Please note that the lords of 12 navamsas have to

be Mars, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn,

Saturn and Jupiter, just like in the case of savya nakshatras. How do we get

them if we start from Scorpio and go backwards? Naturally, this requires jumps

around Leo and Cancer. Otherwise the order given in verse 1 is broken. That is

the primary criterion and cannot be broken. This is the basis of mandooki and

markati gatis.

In fact, when Parasara defined navamsa, he too basically defined it the same way

Shiva did in verse 1 above. We only know the lords of various amsas in each sign

and don't know the exact signs those lords correspond to. For example, the 4th

navamsa of Taurus is ruled by Mars. Whether the corresponding sign is Aries or

Scorpio is not clear. Thus, it is possible to come up with different navamsa

definitions within the basic definition!

The cyclical navamsa is normally used for seeing marriage, dharma, abilities

etc. But it is clear in Shiva's verses that there is an alternative navamsa.

Shiva just called it navamsa. For clarity, I am calling it Kalachakra navamsa.

A few verses after defining the navamsa chart in the above three verses, Shiva

taught the verse I gave at the beginning of this mail. That defines deha and

jeeva of a sign as the first and last amsas in it. In verses following it,

Shiva listed the deha rasi, jeeva rasi and individual signs in the dasa cycle

of each sign. One can notice that deha rasi given is indeed the first amsa of

the sign if you use the definition in the three verses quoted. Similarly, jeeva

rasi is indeed the last amsa and the dasa cycle perfectly corresponds to the

nine amsas in the sign. You just have to use the modified navamsa chart defined

by Shiva.

If you read what I wrote above carefully, you will see that this does hold water

and is based on solid principles. One should give it serious consideration

before rejecting it (which is anyway not my loss). This is not my own theory.

This is a logical deduction from the teachings of Shiva.

I am indebted to Sreeman Tirumala Samudrala Venkata Raghavacharya, whose 1930

translation of Shiva's teachings on Kalachakra dasa were very useful in my

researches. I read many authors, but they did not answer my questions. While

Sri Raghavacharya's translation was intentionally vague at places, the verses

were quite clear. My questions were answered.

Shiva gave the readings of various antardasas in various mahadasas. He gave 2

results (savya/apasavya) for 108 mahadasa-antardasa combinations. While Sri

Ramanarayanan and I get only those mahadasa-antardasa combinations covered by

Shiva, Sri Raman Suprajarama, Sri Sathiyanarayana Gupta, Sri Manish Pandit, Sri

K N Rao, Sri Sumeet Chugh, Sri Santhanam etc get mahadasa-antardasa combinations

not covered by Shiva. How is it possible? Shiva - and not even Parasara - is the

ultimate authority on Kalachakra dasa.

I am 100% confident that most scholars have gotten Kalachakra dasa wrong until

now. I myself got it wrong in the past. Even the village priest who criticized

my old version seems to have gotten it wrong. If time has come for Shiva's true

teachings to become widely understood and used, it will happen in the years to

come.

Those who are interested in this should not miss Sanjay ji's lecture on

Kalachakra dasa at Mumbai conference. It is the fruit of a long research/study.

Please give us your serious consideration, though it is difficult to change

one's long-held views.

May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha

-

Chandrashekhar

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

Cc: vedic astrology

Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:07 PM

Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Kalchakra navamsa

Dear Narasimha,I have never said that the dasha tables be taken as if by magic.I

am a bit confused by what you are saying. The theory of the dasha order changing

merely on account of Nakshatras changing from Savya to Apasavya , does not hold

water if one looks at dasha order of individual Padas minutely. I do not find

Parashara advising further division of Amsha allotted to Nakshtra Padas in to

nine and allotting linear Nakshatra Padas to them. However treating it as a

viable theory to solve the order of dasha order, as suggested, even here the

explanation offered does not hold water.For example, why does order of Rohini

1,2,3,4 i.e."Sc, Li, Vi, Cn," not remain linear (Apasavya direction) only in

the last Pada (3 to4)? Also according to what haas been given by Parashara

Rohini 4th pada falls in Leo and not Cancer. And continuing the Apasavya theory

further why does another Apasavya Nakshatra Mrigashira Pada 1 and 2, that follow

according to the theory advanced, turn Savya to Leo and then Apasavya to Gem. in

Mandooki gati? Further Mrigashira 1st pada falls in Cancer and 2nd in Gemini, in

linear fashion. Parashara has specifically given how the Rasi Padas are to be

allotted to Dwadasha Rasi Chakra.If my memory does not fail me, Parashara

specifically states that the Rasi that is occupied by a Nakshatra pada is to be

treated as its Navamsha.Please correct me if I have not understood how Nakshatra

Padas are to be allotted to Dwadasha Rasi Chakra as indicated by

Parashara.Chandrashekhar.Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

Namaste Chandrashakhar ji,

> There is much that is not understood in the Kalachakra Dasha as given in >

Astrological texts. The primary being, why in certain Nakshatra Padas, > the

dasha progresses in linear order and why in some it jumps back and > forth ?

Unless this is understood, I feel it is difficult to understand > the logic and

principles behind application of Kalachakra Dasha.

This is what I have been saying all along. As long as you treat the dasa cycle

tables as some magic, you have not understood Kalachakra dasa and you can make

a mistake or two. The key is to understand the logic behind the tables.

I tried to address this in some of my previous mails.

The dasa cycle of Aswini 1st pada (i.e. Aries amsa) is Ar, Ta, Ge, Cn, Le, Vi,

Li, Sc and Sg, because there are the kalachakra navamsas (or just navamsas) of

the nine nakshatra padas in Aries (Aswini 1, 2, 3, 4, Bharani 1, 2, 3, 4,

Krittika 1).

The dasa cycle of Aswini 2nd pada (i.e. Taurus amsa) is Cp, Aq, Pi, Sc, Li, Vi,

Cn, Le and Ge, because these are the kalachakra navamsas of the nine nakshatra

padas in Taurus (Krittika 2, 3, 4, Rohini 1, 2, 3, 4, Mrigasira 1, 2). The

first 3 signs in the dasa cycle go zodiacally, because they are padas of

Krittika (a savya nakshatra). The anti-zodiacal progression starts from Rohini

1st pada, because Rohini is an apasavya nakshatra. Aswini, Bharani and Krittika

are savya nakshatras. Rohini, Mrigasira and Ardra are apasavya nakshatras.

Kalachakra navamsa is a variation of navamsa. When defining navamsa, Parasara

only said that the lords of the 9 equal parts of Aries are Mars, Venus,

Mercury, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter; the lords of the 9 equal

parts of Taurus are Saturn, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Sun

and Mercury, etc. He did not specify the signs. The signs we normally take

result in a cyclical navamsa. Kalachakra navamsa is composed of two cycles -

one zodiacal for savya nakshatra padas and the other anti-zodiacal for apasavya

nakshatra padas. This kalachakra navamsa also fits the basic navamsa definition

given by Parasara. So I consider that it is very much granted by Parasara.

Kalachakra dasa is based on these kalachakra navamsas.

So Pi in the dasa cycle of Aswini 2nd pada is clearly Krittika 4th pada and Sc

coming after it in the dasa cycle is clearly Rohini 1st pada.

If you extend this approach to the entire Kalachakra dasa table, you will see

that there is a clear structure and it is nor arbitrary. You will also realize

that mahadas themselves correspond to various nakshatra padas.

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

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December 4, 2004

Dear Narasimha,

I did not hint in any ambiguity about Amshas of Nakshatra Padas.The

Navamsha details sent appear to be out of format. If this means 1st

Pada of Ashwini,Punarvasu, Hasta, Moola and P.Bhadra owning Aries

Navamsha, their second pada owning Taurus Navamsha and so on, with 1st

pada of Rohini,Magha, Vishakha, Shravana owning Scorpio, their second

Pada owning Libra onwards in Apasavya direction, we are on same

wavelength on that account. The shlokas quoted by you are same as those

given in BPHS in content if words are different.

I wish you had replied to the question regarding sum of Antardasha Ayu

equaling the Mahadasha Ayu indicated for the concerned Pada or

Mahadasha Rasi year, or not on the basis of both streams of thought.

Same for the reason dasha order of Apasavya Nakshatras changing to

Savya direction, only for some of the Padas.

Perhaps, as you said, when ever we meet this should be discussed in

person. I still think the answer is not as straight forward as is being

proposed and one needs to understand movement of time through

Kalachakra proper to understand the reason for this. But I am from a

different generation and have a different approach to interpretation. I

could also be completely off the mark, but do not think that is the

case. I will try to contact some Buddhist lamas, if I can to understand

their definition of Kalachakra. I was curious about language used in

the shlokas attributed to Shiva, from sources other than the classics.

Let Us wait for the moment we meet, as you suggest.

Chandrashekhar.

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

Namaste Chandrashekhar ji,

Let me fill in on the table of

navamsas given by Lord Shiva. Because he explicitly mentioned starting

from Aries and Scorpio, there is no ambiguity.

Sanskrit

Names: Bhauma

Shukra Budha Indu Arka Saumya Bhrigu Ara Mantri

Shani Manda Guru

English names: Mars Venus Mercury Moon Sun

Mercury Venus Mars Jupiter Saturn Saturn Jupiter

Rasi owned: Aries Taurus Gemini Cancer Leo

Virgo Libra Scorpio Sagittarius Capricorn Aquarius Pisces

Other rasi owned: Scorpio Libra Virgo Cancer Leo

Gemini Taurus Aries Pisces Aquarius Capricorn Sagittarius

Navamsa

of: Nk1 P1 Nk1 P2 Nk1 P3 Nk1 P4 Nk2 P1 Nk2 P2 Nk2 P3 Nk2

P4 Nk3 P1 Nk2 P2 Nk2 P3 Nk2 P4

(Nk1,

Nk2, Nk3 are 3 nakshtras in each savya/apasavya trio, P1, P2, P3 and P4

are the four padas)

The first set of rasis is taken

for savya nakshatras (organized in groups of 3 stars). The second set

of rasis is taken for apasavya nakshatras (organized in groups of 3

stars).

Both groups have

the lords in the same order as given in Shiva's verse 1 quoted by me

yesterday. The second and third verses say that the signs start from

Aries and Scorpio in savya and apasavya nakshatra groups. The two rasi

lists given above implement that dictum. So the list above implements

the dictum in the 3 verses quoted yesterday and shows how Kalachakra

navamsa chart is cast. Parasara also mentioned this chart. This chart

is the basis of Kalachakra dasa.

You are not

trying my patience, but I am running out of time. So I will not engage

in a full-fledged discussion with you on Simhavalokana gati, other

gatis, Kalachakra navamsa etc. Hopefully, we will meet in person oneday

and it is always so much easier to discuss in person!

May Jupiter's

light shine on us,