What does Maharshi Aurobindo says on Fate&Free-will

[Guest guest]

Respected Sirs,

 

 

I thank all the members who are actively participating in the

discussion on my query. It seems very interesting. While pondering

over the opinions I came to read a book on Maharshi Arobindo in which

there there was an article – Fate & Karma in which Maharshi has

given his opinion on the topic. I would like to share what I have

read with all the members. If it enlightens you in any way I am so

happy.

 

I am copying the question answer session as such here. Questions were

framed by a devotee and answers to them were taken by him from the

writings of Sri Aurobindo.

 

Q: Is it possible to predict future events? Is there such a thing as

destiny?

 

Ans: What is evident is that in the course of events there is an

element of the predictable, predictable accurately in detail as well

as in large points. But it is not true that all is predictable or

that destiny is the sole governing factor of existence. Neither is it

true that there is a complete free will. The popular belief that all

is destiny or else all is free will is quite summary and inconclusive.

 

 

Q: Is human will entirely helpless before Fate or Destiny?

Ans: The astrologers themselves say that there are two forces, daiva

and purusaakara, Fate and individual energy, and individual energy

can modify and even frustrate Fate. Even what is determined by Fate

has to be worked out, actually is worked out by a play of forces and

in this play there is no absolute rigidity discoverable. Personal

will or endeavour is one of those forces. Napolean when asked why he

believed in Fate , yet was always planning and acting,

answered, "Because it is fated that I should act and plan"; In other

words, his planning and acting were part of Fate, contributed to the

results Fate had in view.

 

Q: What is the explanation of Fate?

Ans: The Indian explanation of Fate is Karma. We ourselves are our

own Fate through our actions, but the Fate created by us binds us,

for what we have sown we must reap in this life or another.

 

Q: Whatever may have been our past actions, cannot our present will

determine to some extent the course of future happenings?

Ans: Certainly it can, because we are creating our Fate for the

future even while undergoing old Fate, from the past in the present.

That gives a meaning to our will and action and does not, as European

critics wrongly believe, constitute a rigid and sterilizing fatalism.

 

It is not impossible that our present will and action can annul or

modify the past Karma; it is only certain strong effects

called "utkata karma" that are non-modifiable. The achievement of

spiritual consciousness, for example, can annul or give the power to

annul past Karma; for then we enter into union with the cosmic or

transcendent Divine will which has the power to annul what it had

created, break the narrow fixed lines of Karma and make a more

plastic freedom and wideness. Neither Karma nor Astrology therefore

points to a rigid and forever immutable Fate.

 

Here is another quotation by Aurobindo:

"All is free-will or else all is destiny – it is not so simple as

that. This question of free-will or determination is the most knotty

of all metaphysical questions and nobody has been able to solve it-

for a good reason that both destiny and will exist and even a free-

will exists somewhere; the difficulty is only how to get at it and

make it effective. " –Aurobindo.

 

 

Any comments?

[Guest guest]

Excellent Jyothi. Fate and/or Freewill - this has been a vexed question through

ages. Fate is linked with Karma. But are we free to do Karma ? Perhaps not. Dr.

B.V.Raman talks of only semi-independent Karma. Veteran astrologer Shri K.N.Rao

too has written much about it. He gives a reference saying," ...which is Karma

and which is not Karma, even rishis find difficult to decide..".

 

Praveen Kumar (Mumbai)

-

jyothi_lakshmi_b

vedic astrology

13, 03, 2005 8:33 PM

[vedic astrology] What does Maharshi Aurobindo says on Fate&Free-will

Respected Sirs, I thank all the members who are actively participating in the

discussion on my query. It seems very interesting. While pondering over the

opinions I came to read a book on Maharshi Arobindo in which there there was an

article – Fate & Karma in which Maharshi has given his opinion on the

topic. I would like to share what I have read with all the members. If it

enlightens you in any way I am so happy.I am copying the question answer

session as such here. Questions were framed by a devotee and answers to them

were taken by him from the writings of Sri Aurobindo.Q: Is it possible to

predict future events? Is there such a thing as destiny?Ans: What is evident is

that in the course of events there is an element of the predictable, predictable

accurately in detail as well as in large points. But it is not true that all is

predictable or that destiny is the sole governing factor of existence. Neither

is it true that there is a complete free will. The popular belief that all is

destiny or else all is free will is quite summary and inconclusive.Q: Is human

will entirely helpless before Fate or Destiny?Ans: The astrologers themselves

say that there are two forces, daiva and purusaakara, Fate and individual

energy, and individual energy can modify and even frustrate Fate. Even what is

determined by Fate has to be worked out, actually is worked out by a play of

forces and in this play there is no absolute rigidity discoverable. Personal

will or endeavour is one of those forces. Napolean when asked why he believed

in Fate , yet was always planning and acting, answered, "Because it is fated

that I should act and plan"; In other words, his planning and acting were part

of Fate, contributed to the results Fate had in view.Q: What is the explanation

of Fate?Ans: The Indian explanation of Fate is Karma. We ourselves are our own

Fate through our actions, but the Fate created by us binds us, for what we have

sown we must reap in this life or another.Q: Whatever may have been our past

actions, cannot our present will determine to some extent the course of future

happenings?Ans: Certainly it can, because we are creating our Fate for the

future even while undergoing old Fate, from the past in the present. That gives

a meaning to our will and action and does not, as European critics wrongly

believe, constitute a rigid and sterilizing fatalism.It is not impossible that

our present will and action can annul or modify the past Karma; it is only

certain strong effects called "utkata karma" that are non-modifiable. The

achievement of spiritual consciousness, for example, can annul or give the

power to annul past Karma; for then we enter into union with the cosmic or

transcendent Divine will which has the power to annul what it had created,

break the narrow fixed lines of Karma and make a more plastic freedom and

wideness. Neither Karma nor Astrology therefore points to a rigid and forever

immutable Fate.Here is another quotation by Aurobindo:"All is free-will or else

all is destiny – it is not so simple as that. This question of free-will

or determination is the most knotty of all metaphysical questions and nobody

has been able to solve it- for a good reason that both destiny and will exist

and even a free-will exists somewhere; the difficulty is only how to get at it

and make it effective. " –Aurobindo.Any comments?Archives:

vedic astrologyGroup info:

vedic astrology/info.htmlTo UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank

mail to vedic astrology-....... May Jupiter's light

shine on us .......

[Guest guest]

Well karma I'd say as is sid in Gita the duties of the destiny that

must be fulfilled , the destiny that one is born with into this world.

Freewill will allow you only enough flexiblity to perform that duty

full and adequately, thereby negating the need for a rebirth to

complete the learning objective of the destiny you are born with or

on the other hand ignore partly or fully that duty, therby

necessitating rebirth, and hence suffering and also thereby

prolonging the fulfillment of the ultimate aim of the Soul's

existence namely attaining oneness with the cosmic conciousness.

Anand(Bangalore)

vedic astrology, Praveen Kumar

<chunnu2001@v...> wrote:

> Excellent Jyothi. Fate and/or Freewill - this has been a vexed

question through ages. Fate is linked with Karma. But are we free to

do Karma ? Perhaps not. Dr. B.V.Raman talks of only semi-independent

Karma. Veteran astrologer Shri K.N.Rao too has written much about it.

He gives a reference saying," ...which is Karma and which is not

Karma, even rishis find difficult to decide..".

>

> Praveen Kumar (Mumbai)

> -

> jyothi_lakshmi_b

> vedic astrology

> 13, 03, 2005 8:33 PM

> [vedic astrology] What does Maharshi Aurobindo says on

Fate&Free-will

>

>

>

> Respected Sirs,

>

>

> I thank all the members who are actively participating in the

> discussion on my query. It seems very interesting. While

pondering

> over the opinions I came to read a book on Maharshi Arobindo in

which

> there there was an article - Fate & Karma in which Maharshi has

> given his opinion on the topic. I would like to share what I have

> read with all the members. If it enlightens you in any way I am

so

> happy.

>

> I am copying the question answer session as such here. Questions

were

> framed by a devotee and answers to them were taken by him from

the

> writings of Sri Aurobindo.

>

> Q: Is it possible to predict future events? Is there such a thing

as

> destiny?

>

> Ans: What is evident is that in the course of events there is an

> element of the predictable, predictable accurately in detail as

well

> as in large points. But it is not true that all is predictable or

> that destiny is the sole governing factor of existence. Neither

is it

> true that there is a complete free will. The popular belief that

all

> is destiny or else all is free will is quite summary and

inconclusive.

>

>

> Q: Is human will entirely helpless before Fate or Destiny?

> Ans: The astrologers themselves say that there are two forces,

daiva

> and purusaakara, Fate and individual energy, and individual

energy

> can modify and even frustrate Fate. Even what is determined by

Fate

> has to be worked out, actually is worked out by a play of forces

and

> in this play there is no absolute rigidity discoverable. Personal

> will or endeavour is one of those forces. Napolean when asked why

he

> believed in Fate , yet was always planning and acting,

> answered, "Because it is fated that I should act and plan"; In

other

> words, his planning and acting were part of Fate, contributed to

the

> results Fate had in view.

>

> Q: What is the explanation of Fate?

> Ans: The Indian explanation of Fate is Karma. We ourselves are

our

> own Fate through our actions, but the Fate created by us binds

us,

> for what we have sown we must reap in this life or another.

>

> Q: Whatever may have been our past actions, cannot our present

will

> determine to some extent the course of future happenings?

> Ans: Certainly it can, because we are creating our Fate for the

> future even while undergoing old Fate, from the past in the

present.

> That gives a meaning to our will and action and does not, as

European

> critics wrongly believe, constitute a rigid and sterilizing

fatalism.

>

> It is not impossible that our present will and action can annul

or

> modify the past Karma; it is only certain strong effects

> called "utkata karma" that are non-modifiable. The achievement of

> spiritual consciousness, for example, can annul or give the power

to

> annul past Karma; for then we enter into union with the cosmic or

> transcendent Divine will which has the power to annul what it had

> created, break the narrow fixed lines of Karma and make a more

> plastic freedom and wideness. Neither Karma nor Astrology

therefore

> points to a rigid and forever immutable Fate.

>

> Here is another quotation by Aurobindo:

> "All is free-will or else all is destiny - it is not so simple as

> that. This question of free-will or determination is the most

knotty

> of all metaphysical questions and nobody has been able to solve

it-

> for a good reason that both destiny and will exist and even a

free-

> will exists somewhere; the difficulty is only how to get at it

and

> make it effective. " -Aurobindo.

>

>

> Any comments?

>

>

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology-

 

>

> ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us .......

>

>

>

>

> Sponsor

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --

----------

> Links

>

>

> vedic astrology/

>

> b..

> vedic astrology

>

> c.. Terms of

Service.

[Guest guest]

My take is karma, fate, destiny, free-will and divine intervention..

all these fundamental concepts need to be very well rooted in

individuals (more so amongst astrologers or wannabe astrologers) to

be able to understand and appreciate their own abilities and

obstacles and read the astrological indications in the true spirit.

 

For a very lucid presentation, read the following Q&A kind article by

His Holiness Shri Chandrashekhara Bharati Swami [His Holiness was the

Sringeri Mathadhipati from 1912-1954. He was considered a Jivan

Muktha in his times.]

 

www.advaita-vedanta.org/articles/The_Riddle_of_Fate_and_Free.htm

 

If the page doesn't load well, youc an read the full article pasted

below

 

<b>The Riddle of Fate and Free-Will Solved<b>

 

H.H. : I hope you are pursuing your studies in the Vedanta as usual?

 

D. : Though not regularly, I do make some occasional study.

 

H.H. : In the course of your studies, you may have come across many

doubts.

 

D. : Yes, one doubt repeatedly comes up to my mind.

 

H.H. : What is it?

 

D. : It is the problem of the eternal conflict between fate and

free-will. What are their respective provinces and how can the

conflict be avoided?

 

H.H. : If presented in the way you have done it, the problem would

baffle even the highest of thinkers.

 

D. : What is wrong with my presentation? I only stated the problem

and did not even explain how I find it to be a difficult one.

 

H.H. : Your difficulty arises in the very statement of the problem.

 

D. : How?

 

H.H. : A conflict arises only if there are two things. There can be

no conflict if there is only one thing.

 

D. : But here there are two things, fate and free-will.

 

H.H. : Exacly. It is this assumption of yours that is responsible for

your problem.

 

D. : It is not my assumption at all. How can I ignore the fact that

the two things exist as independent factors, whether I grant their

existence or not?

 

H.H. : That is where you are wrong again.

 

D. : How?

 

H.H. : As a follower of our Sanatana Dharma, you must know that fate

is nothing extraneous to yourself, but only the sum total of the

results of your past actions. As God is but the dispenser of the

fruits of actions, fate, representing those fruits, is not his

creation but only yours. Fre-will is what you exercise when you act

now.

 

D. : Still I do not see how they are not two distinct things.

 

H.H. : Have it this way. Fate is past karma; free-will is present

karma. Both are really one, that is, karma, though they may differ in

the matter of time. There can be no conflict when they are really

one.

 

D. : But the difference in time is a vital difference which we

cannot possibly overlook.

 

H.H. : I do not want you to overlook it, but only to study it more

deeply. The present is before you and, by the exercise of free-will,

you can attempt to shape it. The past is past and is therefore beyond

your vision and is rightly called adrishta, the unseen. You cannot

reasonably attempt to find out the relative strength of two things

unless both of them are before you. But, by our very definition, free-

will, the present karma, alone is before you and fate, the past

karma, is invisible. Even if you see two wrestlers right in front of

you, you cannot decide about their relative strength. For, one may

have weight, the other agility; one muscles and the other tenacity;

one the benefit of practice and the other coolness of judgment and so

on. We can go on building arguments on arguments to conclude that a

particular wrestler will be the winner. But experience shows that

each of these qualifications may fail at any time or may prove to be

a disqualification. The only practical method of determining their

relative strength will be to make them wrestle. While this is so, how

do you expect to find by means of arguments a solution to the problem

of the relative value of fate and free-will when the former by its

very nature is unseen!

 

D. : Is there no way then of solving this problem?

 

H.H. : There is this way. The wrestlers must fight with each other

and prove which of them is the stronger.

 

D. : In other words, the problem of conflict will get solved only

at the end of the conflict. But at that time the problem will have

ceased to have any practical significance.

 

H.H. : Not only so, it will cease to exist.

 

D. : That is, before the conflict begins, the problem is incapable

of solution; and, after the conflict ends, it is no longer necessary

to find a solution.

 

H.H. : Just so. In either case, it is profitless to embark on the

enquiry as to the relative stregth of fate and free-will.

 

 

D. : Does Yor Holiness then mean to say that we must resign

ourselves to fate?

 

H.H. : Certainly not. On the other hand, you must devote yourself to

free-will.

 

D. : How can that be?

 

H.H. : Fate, as I told you, is the resultant of the past exercise of

your free-will. By exercising your free-will in the past, you brought

on the resultant fate. By exercising your free-will in the present, I

want you to wipe out your past record if it hurts you, or to add to

it if you find it enjoyable. I any case. whether for acquiring more

happiness or for reducing misery. you have to exercise your free-will

in the present.

 

D. : But the exercise of free-will however well-directed, very

often fails to secure the desired result, as fate steps in and

nullifies the action of free-will.

 

H.H. : You are again ignoring our definition of fate. It is not an

extraneous and a new thing which steps in to nullify your free-will.

On the other hand, it is already in yourself.

 

D. : It may be so, but its existence is felt only when it comes

into conflict with free-will. How can we possibly wipe out the past

record when we do not know nor have the means of knowing what it is?

 

H.H. : Except to a very few highly advanced souls, the past certainly

remains unknown. But even our ignorance of it is very often an

advantage to us. For, if we happen to know all the results we have

accumulated by our actions in this and our past lives, we will be so

much shocked as to give up in despair any attempt to overcome or

mitigate them. Even in this life, forgetfulnes is a boon which the

merciful God has been pleased to bestow on us, so that we may not be

burdened at any moment with a recollection of all that has happened

in the past. Similarly, the divine spark in us is ever bright with

hope and makes it possible for us to confidently exercise our free-

will. It is not for us to belittle the significance of these two

boons-forgetfulness of the past and hope for the future.

 

D. : Our ignorance of the past may be useful in not deterring the

exercise of the free-will, and hope may stimulate that exercise. All

the same, it cannot be denied that fate very often does present a

formidable obstacle in the way of such exercise.

 

H.H. : It is not quite correct to say that fate places obstacles in

the way of free-will. On the other hand, by seeming to oppose our

efforts, it tells us what is the extent of free-will that is

necessary now to bear fruit. Ordinarily for the purpose of securing a

single benefit, a particular activity is prescribed; but we do not

know how intensively or how repeatedly that activity has to be

pursued or pesisted in. If we do not succed at the very first

attempt, we can easily deduce that in the past we have exercised our

free-will just in the opposite direction, that the resultant of that

past activity has first to be eliminated and that our present effort

must be proportionate to that past activity. Thus, the obstacle which

fate seems to offer is just the gauge by which we have to guide our

present activities.

 

D. : The obstacle is seen only after the exercise of our free-will;

how can that help us to guide our activities at the start?

 

H.H. : It need not guide us at the start. At the start, you must not

be obsessed at all with the idea that there will be any obstacle in

your way. Start with boundless hope and with the rpesumption that

there is nothing in the way of your exercising the free-will. If you

do not succeed, tell yourself then that there has been in the past a

counter-influence brought on by yourself by exercising your free-will

in the other direction and, therefore, you must now exercise your

free-will with re-doubled vogor and persistence to achieve your

object. Tell yourself that, inasmuch as the seeming obstacle is of

your own making, it is certainly within your competence to overcome

it. If you do not succeed even after this renewed effort, there can

be absolutely no justification for despair, for fate being but a

creature of your free-will can never be stronger than your free-will.

Your failure only means that your present exercise of free-will is

not sufficient to counteract the result of the past exercise of it.

In other words, there is no question of a relative proportion

between fate and free-will as distinct factors in life. The relative

proportion is only as between the intensity of our past action and

the intensity of our present action.

 

D. : But even so, the relative intensity can be realised only at

the end of our present effort in a particular direction.

 

H.H. : It is always so in the case of everything which is adrishta or

unseen. Take, for example, a nail driven into a wooden pillar. When

you see it for the first time, you actually see, say, an inch of it

projecting out of the pillar. The rest of it has gone into the wood

and you cannot now see what exact length of the nail is imbedded in

the wood. That length, therefore, is unseen or adrishta, so far as

you are concerned. Beautifully varnished as the pillar is, you do not

know what is the composition of the wood in which the nail is driven.

That also is unseen or adrishta. Now, suppose you want to pull that

nail out, can you tell me how many pulls will be necessary and how

powerful each pull has to be?

 

D. : How can I? The number and the intensity of the pulls will

depend upon the length which has gone into the wood.

 

H.H. : Certainly so. And the length which has gone into the wood is

not arbitrary, but depended upon the number of strokes which drove it

in and the intensity of each of such strokes and the resistance which

the wood offered to them.

 

D. : It is so.

 

H.H. : The number and intensity of the pulls needed to take out the

nail depend therefore upon the number and intensity of the strokes

which drove it in.

 

D. : Yes.

 

H.H. : But the strokes that drove in the nail are now unseen and

unseeable. They relate to the past and are adrishta.

 

D. : Yes.

 

H.H. : Do we stop from pulling out the nail simply because we happen

to be ignorant of the length of the nail in the wood or of the number

and intensity of the strokes which drove it in? Or, do we persist in

pulling it out by increasing our effort?

 

D. : Certainly, as practical men we adopt the latter course.

 

H.H. : Adopt the same course in every effort of yours. Exert yourself

as much as you can. Your will must succeed in the end.

 

 

D. : But there certainly are many things which are impossible to

attain even after the utmost exertion.

 

H.H. : There you are mistaken. There is nothing which is really

unattainable. A thing, however, may be unattainable to us at the

particular stage at which we are, or with the qualifications that we

possess. The attainability or otherwise of a particular thing is thus

not an absolute characteristic of that thing but is relative and

proportionate to our capacity to attain it.

 

D. : The success or failure of an effort can be known definitely

only at the end. How are we then to know beforehand whether with our

present capacity we may or may not exert ourselves to attain a

particular object, and whether it is the right kind of exertion for

the attainment of that object?

 

H.H. : Your question is certainly a pertinent one. The whole aim of

our Dharma Shastras is to give a detailed answer to your question.

Religion does not fetter man's free-will. It leaves him quite free to

act, but tells him at the same time what is good for him and what is

not. The resposibility is entirely and solely his. He cannot escape

it by blaming fate, for fate is of his own making, nor by blaming

God, for he is but the dispenser of fruits in accordance with the

merits of actions. You are the master of your own destiny. It is for

you to make it, to better it or to mar it. This is your privilege.

This is your responsibility.

 

D. : I quite realise this. But often it so happens that I am not

really master of myself. I know, for instance, quite well that a

particular act is wrong; at the same time, I feel impelled to do it.

Similarly, I know that another act is right; at the same time,

however, I feel powerless to do it. It seems that there is some power

which is able to control or defy my free-will. So long as that power

is potent, how can I be called the master of my own destiny? What is

that power but fate?

 

H.H. : You are evidently confusing together two distinct things. Fate

is a thing quite different from the other one which you call a power.

Suppose you handle an instrument for the first time. You will do it

very clumsily and with great effort. The next time, however, you use

it, you will do so less clumsily and with less effort. With repeated

uses, you will have learnt to use it easily and without any effort.

That is, the facility and ease with which you use a particular thing

increase with the number of times you use it. The first time a man

steals, he does so with great effort and much fear; the next time

both his effort and fear are much less. As opportunities increase,

stealing will become a normal habit with him and will require no

effort at all. This habit will generate in him a tendency to steal

even when there is no necessity to steal. It is this tendency which

goes by the name vasana. The power which makes you act as if against

your will is only the vasana which itself is of your own making. This

is not fate. The punishment or reward, in the shape of pain or

pleasure, which is the inevitable consequence of an act, good or bad,

is alone the province of fate or destiny. The vasana which the doing

of an act leaves behind in the mind in the shape of a taste, a

greater facility or a greater tendency for doing the same act once

again, is quite a different thing. It may be that the punishment or

the reward of the past act is, in ordinary circumstances,

unavoidable, if there is no counter-effort; but the vasana can be

easily handled if only we exercise our free-will correctly.

 

D. : But the number of vasanas or tendencies that rule our hearts

are endless. How can we possibly control them?

 

H.H. : The essential nature of a vasana is to seek expression in

outward acts. This characteristic is common to all vasanas, good and

bad. The stream of vasanas, the vasana sarit, as it is called, has

two currents, the good and the bad. If you try to dam up the entire

stream, there mey be danger. The Shastras, therefore, do not ask you

to attempt that. On the other hand, they ask you to submit yourself

to be led by the good vasana current and to resist being led away by

the bad vasana current. When you know that a particular vasana is

rising up in your mind, you cannot possibly say that you are at its

mercy. You have your wits about you and the responsibility of

deciding whether you will encourage it or not is entirely yours. The

Shastras ennciate in detail what vasanas are good and have to be

encouraged and what vasanas are bad and have to be overcome. When, by

dint of practice, you have made all your vasanas good and practically

eliminated the charge of any bad vasanas leading you astray, the

Shastras take upon themselves the function of teaching you how to

free your free-will even from the need of being led by good vasanas.

You will gradually be led on to a stage when your free-will be

entirely free from any sort of coloring due to any vasanas. At that

stage, your mind will be pure as crystal and all motive for

particular action will cease to be. Freedom from the results of

particular actions is an inevitable consequence. Both fate and vasana

disappear. There is freedom for ever more and that freedom is called

Moksha.