Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Dear Shri Saurav You have made a fallacious allegation against me- '' I am trying to impose my views on others''. Think again - who is making this on whom? Did I impose any view ,which parashara has not advised?. On the other hand taking liberty of Parasharas statement to use ''intelligence'' -You have gone a long way(or followed the way shown by some other members)by even considering bhavas, aaroodhas, Ghatika Lagnas for vargamshas. Parashara has explained everything in a clear, logical and sequential order. Imagine that - you have bought some furniture, but has to be assembled. Take the assembling sheet you have got. Will it not - with the help of numbers - explain all individual parts, before explaining how to assemble and how to use it? So did Parashara. He explained everything including the divisions before doing bhava analysis. Why ? - He plans to explain later on how to analyze results for various bhavas and lords based on the divisions they fall, including the first division called Kshethra. continued Pradeep vedic astrology, "Sourav Chowdhury" <sourav12@h...> wrote: > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > || Om Gurave Namah || > > Dear Pradeep-ji, > Namaskar. As per your request, I have reread the > postions of the BPHS which is relevent to your and my arguments once > more so that I am confident in giving this reply. I wish not to > write any more in this subject as it is useless to argue against ill > formed hypotheses, some of which is in your reply. > > You wrote: > > "You should also carefully read all my mails before commenting.Every > varga defined by sage parashara is important - i am only against > varga ''charts''." > > My argument: I will only use BPHS in my argument. > > 1. Maharshi Parasara (and the rishis of his era and later eras) > wrote in clear, unequivocal but also pithy form so save space but to > deliver the message clearly. So each word is very relevant and > important.Now let us see the arrangement of chapters in the BPHS. > > C.1 - The Creation > C.2 - Great Incarnations of the Lord > C.3 - Planetary Characters and Description > C.4 - Zodiacal Signs > C.5 - Finding Planetary Positions > C.6 - Special Ascendants > C.7 - The Sixteen Divisions of a Sign > C.8 - Divisional Consideration > C.9 - Aspects of the Signs > C.10- Surroundings at the Time of Birth > C.11- Evils at Birth > C.12- Antidotes for Evil > C.13- Judgement of Houses > C.14- Effects of the 1st House > C.15- Effects of the 2nd House > (etc.) > > From the scheme of things, it is very clear that Vargas are of prime > importance. Explanations are given for Rasi Chakra Analysis **only > after** defining in details all the sixteen divisions of a sign, the > formulation of these vargas and the presiding deities. This is > significant. > > You again said: > > "If you read those chapters with caution and fresh mind all your > doubts will be cleared. How to analyse Vargas has been clearly > explained.Read vimshopaka strength in BPHS." > > Are you implying the Parasara went into all the trouble of details > of vargas and presiding deities just to give us a clue for > Vimshopaka Bala of planets ?? This is a completely mistaken argument. > I will tell you why. > > BPHS C.7.2-3 > > Kshetram hora cha dreskaanasturyamsah saptamamsaka | > Navamso dasaamamsascha suryamsah shodasamsaka || > Vimsamso vedavamso bhamsatrimsamsakastatah | > khavedamshokhsabedamsah sasthiamsascha tatah param || > > "These vargas are: Griha (rasi or sign), Hora, Drekkana, > Chaturthamsa, Saptamamsa, Navamamsa, Dasamamsa, Dwadasamamsa, > Shodasamamsa, Vimsamsa, Chaturvimsamsa, Saptavimsamsa, Trimsamsa, > Khavedamsa, Akshavedamsa and Sasthiamsa." > > Rasi (see the words Kshetram hora cha ..) is clearly clubbed > together with other vargas. Hence if we treat rasi's as bhavas and > perform bhava analysis, why shouldn't we do the same with other > vargas which are only higher divisions of the zodiac just as rasi > also is ?!? Thus Rasi Chart is definitely a divisional chart (called > D-1) and the way it is going to be analysed (from C.13 onwards) will > show us the way other varga charts should be analysed. > > I will give you one more indication of the above conclusion: > > BPHS C.8.16 (last line) > > Trimsamsake vichintyayevamatrapi grihabat smritam || > > Here the Sage gives clear instruction that Chaturthamsa, Navamamsa, > Trimsamsa etc. vargas chakras will be studies **like the 12 houses** > in the birth chart (rasi chakra). > > Thus it is doubtless that Maharshi indicated that all 16 vargas are > to be analysed as individual "charts" just like the most popular of > them i.e. the rasi varga chart. I hope this expunges all doubt. > > 2. Your next argument is trying to show that varga charts cannot > exist because it becomes difficult to apply bhava significances in > varga charts. > > You stated: > > "In bhava analysis - Parashara advises 9th house for father and 4th > for mother - This is for rashi chakra not for vargas. Can you pls > tell me what is 4th and 9th houses in Hora?Hora is a division not a > chart- so are other vargas.After seeing 2nd house matters,one has to > see the planets Hora placement.BPHS explains the strength of planets > in Hora." > > BPHS C.8.37-38 > > Tanurdhanam cha sahaje bandhuputrarayastatha | > Yuvatirandhradharmashakarmalabhabyayah kramat || > Sanshepenaitaduditamanyad budhyayanusaaratah | > Kinchivishesam vakshyami yatha brahmamukhaachhrutam || > > " Tanu, Dhana, Sahaja, Bandhu, Putra, Ari, Yuvati, Randhra, Dharma, > Karma, Laabha and Vyaya are in order the names of the 12 houses. > Other things than these should be understood according to one's own > intelligence. Now I will try to tell you some new things which I > heard from the speech of Lord Brahma" > > Carefully read this part ** Other things than these should be > understood according to one's own intelligence ** Thus in each > divisional chart each house can potentially mean different things > depending on the particular varga chart in question !! > > This responds to your second argument. Refer to Message # 55218 by > Guru Narasimha-ji for further understanding what house can mean what > in a particular Varga. Parasari Hora Chart has two houses only. > Infact this is an exceptional chart in that sense and thus you > cannot really ask for the significance for the 4H or 9H as they dont > exist in this particular chart!! In case of other kinds of Hora > charts like Kashinatha Hora, 4H can mean sukha regarding wealth and > 9H can mean fortune regarding wealth, the dharma followed in earning > wealth or the guidence (or mis-guidence) received in earning wealth > of things of sustenance etc. > > As per Parasara, you should intelligently ask and assign the > significance of a particular house in a Varga Chakra. Note that > Lagna in that Chakra represents the native in the particular aspect > of life this Varga Chakra is Drawn. Ex. D-10 is a career Varga > chakra and La in D-10 shows the native himself in the field of > career. 9H here will show the nature of guidence and relationship > with the guide (read 'boss' or 'authority') in the career field. > I ask you to exercise your intelligence and derive the significance > of each divisional chart. It will help you immensely and show you > how deep the above quoted statement of Maharsi truely is !! > > 3. I will end my prolonged monologue by answering your last argument. > > You said: > > "So is [sic, 'in'] shastyamsha - the bhava whose lord in benefic > shstyamsha willflourish - where is this bhava found? In Rashi chakra > or shastyamsha? Ask this last question and you will not have anymore > doubts." > > The referred statement in BPHS is C.8.6 If you see the context of > what Maharshi was talking about in that portion you will see that he > was speaking about what various vargas signify. In the end he says > this statement. Your translation of the statement is misleading. I > will take what Sri G. C. Sharma has given "There is no doubt in the > destruction of the house whose lord is in a malefic Sashtiamsa" This > clearly means that no matter what divisional chart you consider, if > any house lord in any such chart is in a bad Sashtiamsa (read ruled > by a malefic deity), that house in that varga chart is definitely > going to suffer. He didnt say if it is Rasi chart, thereby > indicating any divisional chart. > > Hope this discussion helps. It doesn't matter if I am new to this > discussion. I need not read all your previous e-mails. You seem to > be too attached to your own line of thinking and shutting away > others. It's best to challenge your own self in understanding rather > than jump up and challange other's understandings especially of > the learned and experienced like Guru Narasimha-ji. > > Regards, > > Sourav > =================================================================== > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "vijayadas_pradeep" > <vijayadas_pradeep> wrote: > > > > Dear shri Saurav > > > > You can address me without a ji. > > > > I think you are new to this series of discussion on vargas.It has > been > > going on since long.More than a year.Shri Narasimha knows what i am > > saying.Also this thread started when shri Narasimha had analysed > new > > popes chart without giving importance to Rashi chart. > > > > You should also carefully read all my mails before commenting.Every > > varga defined by sage parashara is important - i am only against > varga > > ''charts''.If you read those chapters with caution and fresh mind - > > all your doubts will be cleared. > > How to analyse Vargas has been clearly explained.Read vimshopaka > > strength in BPHS. > > > > In bhava analysis - Parashara advises 9th house for father and 4th > for > > mother - This is for rashi chakra not for vargas. Can you pls tell > me > > what is 4th and 9th houses in Hora?Hora is a division not a chart- > so > > are other vargas.After seeing 2nd house matters,one has to see the > > planets Hora placement.BPHS explains the strength of planets in > Hora. > > > > So is shastyamsha - the bhava whose lord in benefic shstyamsha will > > flourish - where is this bhava found? In Rashi chakra or > shastyamsha? > > Ask this last question and you will not have anymore doubts. > > > > Thanks > > Pradeep > > > > > > vedic astrology, "Sourav Chowdhury" > > <sourav12@h...> wrote: > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > > > Dear Pradeep-ji, > > > Namaskar. Your arguments are ill founded and you > > > haven't carefully read Guru Narasimha-ji's comments. > > > > > > 1. He never undermined the need to analyse rasi chart. Infact he > > > always say in this mp3 lessons that if Rasi chart doesn't allow > an > > > event, it will not happen even if indications are there in the > > > higher divisional chart. If you have read BPHS, Maharshi Parasara > > > has first described 16 divisions of signs (i.e. effectively > defining > > > the varga charts) and then went on into bhava analysis. Why so > much > > > importance to varga charts by the Sage himself ?!? > > > > > > 2. Rasi chart's houses have so many significances, the same 4H > shows > > > motherly relationship, house, heart, vehicles happiness and so > on. > > > If you try to get all predictions done by rasi chart and then go > > > into vargas for a secondary check, you might be mislead. The > ideal > > > is to mix and match both of them. > > > > > > 3. There is the beautiful example of twins who are born very > close > > > in time to each other and have completely different capabilities > and > > > personalities. You can read the details that Guru Narasimha-ji > has > > > posted in his website www.vedicastrologer.com . Kindly read it > > > before making further comments. > > > > > > I like to see many schools of thought. It is beneficial to > learning. > > > But when arguments are made to a Guru's remark for the same of > > > argument, I think it doesn't stand good for the purpose of > learning. > > > I hope I will be taken based on what I wrote and meant and not > > > merely as blind defender of faith in my Guru. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sourav > > > > ===================================================================== > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "vijayadas_pradeep" > > > <vijayadas_pradeep> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimha ji > > > > > > > > You are very right in pointing the imperfections.Now you have > said > > > > Rashi chakra is very simple - Atleast not for me.I have not > even > > > > understood 10 % of the basics on how to analyse rashi chakra > > > > properly.It will take many years to master.Also on one hand > you > > > say > > > > combination of Rashi chakra with Vargas and on the other hand - > > > > > there is no Main chart.If rashi chakra is not the main why do > you > > > > want to use them in combination with Vargas?. > > > > Also if Rashi chakra is not the main why do you give so many > yogas > > > > in your software based on Rashi chakra - pertaining to all > > > > aspects.If Rashi chakra is just for physique - how will we see > the > > > > qualities of Mahapurusha from the Rashi chakra? How will we > see > > > > Saraswati yoga - the yoga for learning.If 10 th house and 10th > > > lord > > > > in Rashi chakra is physical ,what is 10th ''house'' and lord > in > > > > dashamsha. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Pradeep > > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" > > > > <pvr@c...> wrote: > > > > > Namaste friends, > > > > > > > > > > I will quickly try to respond to multiple mails on multiple > > > lists. > > > > These days I've been really busy and cannot give a more > detailed > > > > reply. I may not actually be able to give any further replies > on > > > > this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > Can you explain why you have given TZ 2 for Marktl, > > > Germany? > > > > At 12 degrees > > > > > > East from Greenwich it is in TZ 1. > > > > > > > > > > Gordon, I may be wrong. If the timezone should be 1:00, > please > > > > change the birthtime to 6:33:40 am to 5:33:40 am. > > > > > > > > > > Bottomline is: I did not know the time and rectified lagna > in > > > rasi > > > > and various divisions by retro-fitting. > > > > > > > > > > > You wrote: > > > > > > Interestingly, it is now Mars antardasa in Venus mahadasa! > > > > > > Please check, it is Sat Mahadasa and Moon Antardasa. > > > > > > > > > > Praveen, you are right. There is a bug in my software in the > > > > second cycle of Shashtihayani dasa. Thanks for pointing this > out. > > > > I'll fix this. > > > > > > > > > > Technically, BTW, whether we can use Shashtihayani dasa > after > > > the > > > > age of 60 has passed is debatable. The same holds for other > dasas. > > > > > > > > > > > It has been observed that the Rashi chakra was not given > due > > > > respect > > > > > > during your analysis.Results were decided on the basis of > > > varga - > > > > > > which is derived from Rashi chakra. > > > > > > > > > > > > As thousands of students are observing this analysis - Pls > > > make > > > > it > > > > > > clear is it possible to deduce results from varga of a > > > > planet/lagna > > > > > > alone.When Panditji had questioned a similar analysis on > > > > saptamsha - > > > > > > One could find Ms.Sarbani Sarkar rushing in and > correcting - > > > > > > Significance of Rashi chakra.I would be pleased to know if > you > > > > hold a > > > > > > different position. > > > > > > > > > > Pradeep, because you asked, I will clarify MY position. > > > > > > > > > > For perfection, multiple divisional charts should be judged > > > > together. We are often doing imperfect astrology for the sake > of > > > > simplicity and look at only one chart. The best answer is not > any > > > > single chart, but a combination of charts. > > > > > > > > > > But, if I have to choose a single chart, I'll choose the > > > > applicable varga (e.g. D-10 for career, D-24 for education > etc) > > > > rather than the rasi chart. Though imperfect, it works way > better > > > > for me than rasi chart alone. > > > > > > > > > > While combining rasi with divisions leads to better results, > it > > > is > > > > still away from perfection. Perfection can come only when > > > > shashtyamsa (D-60) is understood correctly and used. > > > > > > > > > > When Parasara defined the matters seen in various divisions > > > (e.g. > > > > physical matters in rasi, financial matters in D-2, > professional > > > > matters in D-10), he said that "everything" is seen in D-60. > Also > > > in > > > > vimsopaka bala computation of dasa varga, D-60 gets a higher > > > > weightage than rasi and navamsa combined! > > > > > > > > > > I am fully convinced that the Jyotish is an imperfect > subject > > > and > > > > just an art as long as one ignores D-60, which was given so > much > > > > importance by Parasara. Jyotish can be established as a > science > > > only > > > > when we master D-60. > > > > > > > > > > > Kalyan verma states - one who is not considering the > vargas > > > > cannot > > > > > > make good predictions.What does this mean? Doesn't it mean > > > that > > > > there > > > > > > is someother place - (other than vargas) - to read the > > > results? > > > > Which > > > > > > is this other MAIN place? Is it not the Rashi chakra? > Division > > > by > > > > > > meaning should have a main to get divided.So which is this > > > main? > > > > If we > > > > > > consider Rashi chakra as the first division - then where > is > > > the > > > > main? > > > > > > > > > > Rasi is a divisional chart too. It is one of the vargas > > > according > > > > to Parasara. > > > > > > > > > > There is nothing called main and secondary. If you ask me to > > > pick > > > > the most important divisional chart, I'll pick D-60. As I > > > mentioned > > > > above, Parasara said everything can be seen in D-60 and gave > it > > > more > > > > weightage than rasi and navamsa combined, when defining dasa > varga > > > > vimsopaka bala. > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pradeep, > > > > > > Correct ! If we apply common sense, we can see Vargas > repeating > > > > > > with lagna as it is a few hours before. Only the Moon > changes > > > its > > > > > > > > > > Vargas do not exactly repeat. Different divisions have > different > > > > patterns. The navamsa, dasamsa, vimsamsa, chaturvimsamsa and > > > > shashtyamsa combination I identified in Aries rasi lagna does > not > > > > repeat in Pisces rasi or Taurus rasi. > > > > > > > > > > > position fast. Then, touchstone of any predictive > principle is > > > > advance > > > > > > predictions, which they always elude. Veteran astrologers > of > > > > Jyotish > > > > > > Group like Shri K.N.Rao and Satya Prakash ji too advised > them, > > > > but > > > > > > of no avail. A whole generation is being misguided. Most > > > > unfortunate ! > > > > > > But then, as Shri K.N.Rao says, it is the will of the God. > > > > > > > > > > It is quite presumptuous of some to believe that "a whole > > > > generation is being misguided". Whether a generation is being > > > > misguided or guided in the correct direction to fully discover > the > > > > teachings of maharshis and establish astrology as a science is > > > > something that the coming generations will judge. Neither I > nor > > > you > > > > are in a position to pre-judge it. > > > > > > > > > > Let me do my work and you do your work. There is no need to > talk > > > > about misguided generations. > > > > > > > > > > > [Visti] Parasara states that if eighth lord is well placed > or > > > > even exalted, > > > > > > then longevity will be long - This is also applied in the > > > method > > > > of three > > > > > > pairs. You may argue that the eighth lord when strong will > > > cause > > > > problems, > > > > > > but Harihara states in Prasna Marga, that when the planets > are > > > > strong they > > > > > > will give their auspicious results - he states that this > > > applies > > > > to both > > > > > > natal and prasna charts. Further being Vara lord and in > the > > > > fifth house, it > > > > > > means the digestive fire is excellent and excellent health > is > > > > promised. This > > > > > > is not the problem. > > > > > > > > > > Visti, I do not look at only the placement of vaaresha but > also > > > > the ownership of the vaaresha. If the weekday lord in a > muhurta > > > > happens to be randhresha, I do not consider it auspicious. > This is > > > > just my view and not explicitly granted by classics. If you > have a > > > > different view, I can respect it. > > > > > > > > > > > [Visti] What is your current view on the use of the > arudha > > > > lagna in the > > > > > > calculation of vaisheshikamsa? > > > > > > > > > > Hmm, I don't have any view. I spent so much time mulling > over > > > > Parasara's vaiseshikamsa clause "swaaroodhaat kendra > naathaanaam > > > > vargaah graahyaah sudheemataa", but could not come to a > conclusion. > > > > > > > > > > When I wrote that Sun is in Brahmalokamsa in Pope Benedict > XVI's > > > > chart, I did not use the "swaaroodhaat" criterion. I used only > the > > > > standard definition and ignoring the additional clause. > > > > > > > > > > When Lord Dakshinamurthy blesses me, I will understand this > > > clause > > > > correctly. When I do, I will share my understanding with all. > For > > > > now, I have no view. > > > > > > > > > > > [Visti] In concur with your choice for the popes chart - > good > > > > rectification. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much Visti. I am glad a Jyotish scholar of > your > > > > knowledge and abilities has concurred with my rectification. > > > > > > > > > > May Jupiter's light shine on us, > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > -------------------------- -- > --- > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): > http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): > http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > > > > SJC website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > -------------------------- -- > --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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