RE: RE: Cn and Le Riddle ((Multiple replies) RE: New method...)

[Guest guest]

Dear Raman,

I think I was not able to convey the Parivrittidwaya concept, as

understood by me, properly. It would be 1st hora of Aries being Aries,

2nd being Taurus. 1st hora of Taurus being Gemini second being Cancer

and so on till 1st hora of Virgo becomes Aquarius and second Pisces.

same pattern would repeat from Libra onwards with first hora of Libra

being Aries and so on.

If I mistake not, the day and night sign mapping is followed in Somnath

drekkana too. So it is not that I am opposed to that concept as such.

Only that for Cancer and Leo rasis mapping to day and night signs would

have to be imaginative but not, necessarily, logical.

As to N. T. Ramarao's hora chart per Lahiri Ayanamsha (as I am

comfortable with that), we do get Lord of the 5th in 1st, Lord of 1st

in 10th and Lord of 9th and 10th in 5th. This coupled with Sun in

Ascendant (his dispositor being in 10th, in friend's rasi) could

certainly give Political career. My personal opinion is that a strong

Saturn is also likely to give rise to a Political career and good

following Saturn being considered a planet of democracy. The fact of

Lord of the 4th in Lagna also indicates wealth as there is a

combination of trine and square Lord in Lagna.

Again look at the 2nd house holding Mars the planet for Dambha. If I

remember right, and my memory could be faulty, NTR used to play

mythological characters, and even used that analogy for Popular

support. Again His Film career was certainly interlinked to his rise in

politics as shown by linkage of Saturn, Venus and Mercury. Venus is

also lord of the 6th and his Political career was certainly put rest by

his relatives. Moon being in Papakartari, his emotional decisions were

also cause of his downfall.

Of course, there are many ways of interpreting charts and the above is

if one looks at it as a stand alone chart. If we go by strict Parashara

instructions to look at strength of planets on the basis of their being

in exaltation, own, friend's house as well as being in trine or square,

even then we come to same conclusion that the chart is indicative of

good wealth. The fact that the Ascendant is Saumya rasi also seems to

have a bearing he tackled the issue when challenged.

I agree that generally the Savyaa and Apasavya rule is applied for

analysis and not calculations. But this is not an empirical rule.

Jaimini follow Savyaa and Apasavya in Hora Lagna determination, in Kala

chakra dasha, again for calculations. So is 9th house considered in

Stree Jataka for progeny, though one may say that is for analysis.

I would like to get your views on this please.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Raman Suprajarama wrote:

Dear Sri Chandrashekhar,

I would rather go with Parivrittidwaya Hora as there is at least some

uniformity in how Vargas are drawn.

Both the Hora variation that I have come up with and Kashinatha Hora

have

uniformity in them. In my humble opinion, the explanation you have given

that is Aries maps to Aries and Taurus, Taurus maps to Taurus and

Gemini and

so on does not use the significance of the Sun and the Moon rulership.

Parashara and other authorities have been clear in saying that the

differentiation is based on Sun and the Moon.

The mapping to odd or even sign is possible in Trimshamsha chart as Sun

and

Moon do not rule over any Trimshamsha, and the chart, apparently,

relates to

balance or imbalance of Pancha Tatwas in human body.

I agree. Mapping to odd and even signs is one of the variations of

Trimshamsa chart. I will write more about this on a later date. I will

restrict this mail only to Hora.

Having said that, I have certain thoughts on the issue, which I would

like

to share with you. If we extend the logic of Hora Lagna having to do

with

wealth then, perhaps, the 11th rasi for Vishama rasi should be counted

in

regular direction and for Sama rasi in reverse direction , this will

mean

the 3rd Rasi in regular order. This would give us a more logical reason

of

why 11th rasi is called the second hora by the respected Acharyas of the

day. Vishama rasi is said to be Krura and would not need valor which it

has

a plenty, hence it is the 11th that is the Labha or Aya Sthana that

would be

involved in accumulation of wealth. In case of Sama rasi, being Saumya,

perhaps Parakrama is more the requisite for the Jataka to accumulate

wealth.

Applying this logic, I get the following planetary positions for the

chart

of NT Rama Rao:

Aries – Rahu

Taurus – Ascendant, Sun, Moon and Jupiter

Gemini – Mars

Cancer – Mercury and Ketu

Virgo – Saturn

Aquarius – Venus

The 10th house has Venus indicating show business. The 10th lord is

Saturn,

well placed in the 5th. But to have a good success rate and fan

following,

Saturn and Venus should have influence on each other which is not

present.

Also, Sun is not influencing the 10th house. He was also into politics.

Using Lahiri Ayanamsa, the planetary positions are as follows:

Aries – Rahu

Taurus – Ascendant, Sun, Moon, Mercury and Jupiter

Gemini – Mars

Cancer – Ketu

Virgo – Saturn

Aquarius – Venus

In my experience, I have found that the clockwise and anti-clockwise

rule is

to be followed in analysis and not during calculations. Hence, I would

respectfully disagree with this thought.

I look forward to hear you views on the chart.

Om Tat Sat,

Raman Suprajarama

 

 

[] On

Behalf Of Chandrashekhar

Monday, August 22, 2005 1:59 AM

 

Re: RE: Cn and Le Riddle (Re: (Multiple

replies) RE:

New method...)

Dear Raman,

I have given the Sanskrit shlokas and the source. From the first line

please format alternate line with Sanskrit 99 fonts and the Sanskrit

verse will become clear to read.

I have clearly given both Bhattotpala's interpretation of what Varaha

Mihira says and have tried to correlate that to what Varaha Mihira says

by "Kechittu" etc. I entirely agree with your revered grandfather that

Varaha Mihira gave that shloka not as a passing reference but because

it

was the opinion of great astrologers of his time. It also perhaps

indicates that Varaha Mihira was himself not comfortable with Horas

falling in either Leo or cancer. I, too, do not accept that Horas fall

either in Cancer or Leo. I would rather go with Parivrittidwaya Hora as

there is at least some uniformity in how Vargas are drawn.

At the same time I am not trying to map Hora to day or night signs. If

that be done how would one map, say, second hora of Cancer to the day

sign of Moon? Or the second hora of Sun to night sign of Sun? Both of

them do not own such signs. The mapping to odd or even sign is possible

in Trimshamsha chart as Sun and Moon do not rule over any Trimshamsha,

and the chart, apparently, relates to balance or imbalance of Pancha

Tatwas in human body.

Thus I think, and I may be wrong, that the first shloka of Varaha

Mihira

refers to Krura or Saumya nature of Vishama of Sama rasi hora. this is

in line with Vishama rasi being considered Krura and Sama rasi Saumya.

This also matches with what Parashara says, though some interpret his

shloka in a different way. Now if we also accept the second shloka this

becomes logical. Sama rasi will have both hora belonging to Sama rasi

and so will Vishama Rasi have both hora belonging to Vishama rasi.

Having said that, I have certain thoughts on the issue, which I would

like to share with you. If we extend the logic of Hora Lagna having to

do with wealth then, perhaps, the 11th rasi for Vishama rasi should be

counted in regular direction and for Sama rasi in reverse direction ,

this will mean the 3rd Rasi in regular order. This would give us a more

logical reason of why 11th rasi is called the second hora by the

respected Acharyas of the day. Vishama rasi is said to be Krura and

would not need valor which it has a plenty, hence it is the 11th that

is

the Labha or Aya Sthana that would be involved in accumulation of

wealth. In case of Sama rasi, being Saumya, perhaps Parakrama is more

the requisite for the Jataka to accumulate wealth.

If you could draw charts of N T Ramarao and of your revered grandfather

in this way and then apply the thumb rules given in your article, it

would be easy to confirm whether the logic holds true.

In the current state of Hora that you have proposed, in N T Ramarao's

Hora chart, the thumb rules do not show the financial position of Rao

neither his profession (2nd from Hora Asc. belongs to Mercury and not

Venus).

I could construct the chart proposed by me myself, but then there would

be the tendency to justify my theories and therefore I would like you

to

do this and let me know what is your opinion, as regards the promise in

terms of wealth of the Jatakas.

Please let me know if I am imposing on you.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Raman Suprajarama wrote:

> Dear Sri Chandrashekar,

>

>

>

> Would you care to explain the source for mapping them to Surya or

>

> Chandra and then on to day or night rasis, which I presume is being

>

> discussed. Or are you talking about some different shloka?

>

>

>

> Narasimha Rao has already given the source. Brihat Jataka is one

of

> the best

> classics available. Grandfather always told me that Brihat Jataka

needs to

> be mastered for its hidden meaning and not for its direct meaning.

>

>

>

> BJ 1-9 states "Dreshkaanahora

> Navabhagasangnaashrimshaamshakadwadashasanghitasha kshtetram cha

> yadyasa sa

> thasya vargo" indicating that a planet is said to be in Varga if

it is in

> its Drekkanna, Hora, Navamsa, Trimshamsa, Dwadasamsa and Rasi.

>

>

>

> Let us consider the planet Mars. Mars can be in its own sign in

Drekkanna,

> Navamsa, Trimshamsa, Dwadasamsa and Rasi. If we were to consider

the

> Standard Hora chart, Mars falls into either Cancer or Leo. So it

cannot be

> in Varga. The same is for other planets except Sun and Moon. For

Sun and

> Moon, the standard Hora chart works fine. But they don't have any

place in

> Trimshamsa. From this we can conclude that no planet can be in its

> Varga, if

> we were to follow the standard ways of constructing the Hora chart.

>

>

>

> Perhaps, Varahamihira indicated that there are many variations of

the Hora

> chart (and Trimshamsa) in this verse.

>

>

>

> In the following verses he cleverly indicates about Night strong

signs and

> Day strong Signs. In addition to this, he also indicates

Prushtodaya,

> Ubhayodaya and Sirsodaya Rasis, Masculine and Feminine signs,

Fixed,

> Common

> and Movable signs. He has actually indicated how the different

> variations of

> charts can be constructed.

>

>

>

> For the Hora chart, we need to consider Day and Night strong signs

and for

> Trimshamsa, we need to apply a different rule. I will write about

this

> variation of Trimshamsa at a later stage.

>

>

>

> In verse 12, he uses the word Kaychittu. Prof. Rao in his notes has

> mentioned that the idea could have been included as they were

given by men

> of "great reputation".

>

>

>

> Om Tat Sat,

>

>

>

> Raman Suprajarama

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [] On

> Behalf Of Chandrashekhar

> Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:32 PM

>

> Re: [vedic astrology] Cn and Le Riddle (Re:

> (Multiple replies) RE: New method...)

>

>

>

> Dear Raman, Narasimha,

>

>

>

> If I remember right Raman had referred to Varahamihira's

Brihajjatakam

>

> as a source or inspiration for the Hora chart he proposed. If I am

>

> right, Varahamihira says:

>

>

>

> keicÄu haera< àwma< ÉpSy vaÁDiNt laÉaixpteiÖRtIyam!,

>

>

>

> kecittu horäà prathamäà bhapasya väïchanti läbhädhipaterdvitéyäm|

>

>

>

> Ôe:ka[s<}amip v[RyiNt SvÖadzEkadzraizpanam!.12.

>

>

>

> dreñkäëasaïjïämapi varëayanti svadvädaçaikädaçaräçipänäm||12||

>

>

>

> Here no reference to first Hora of Sun or Moon is mentioned, if my

>

> understanding is correct, he talks about first Hora being of the

Lord of

>

> the rasi and second of the 11th lord. Or rather Varahamihira says

that

>

> some Acharyas hold that opinion.

>

>

>

> Then there is a reference in a Vriddha Karika that:

>

>

>

> razerx¡ ÉveÏaera ta> ctuiv¡zit> Sm&ta>,

>

>

>

> räçerardhaà bhaveddhorä täù caturviàçatiù småtäù|

>

>

>

> me;aid tasa< haera[a< pirv&iÄÖy< Évet!.

>

>

>

> meñädi täsäà horäëäà parivåttidvayaà bhavet||

>

>

>

>

>

> This means that first Hora is of Mesha in Mesha rasi second Hora of

>

> Mesha rasi is Vrishabha and so on twice round the rasi chakra. In

both

>

> cases, the talk is about Rasi Hora and not about Surya or Chandra

Hora.

>

> Therefore the reference to day or night rasi representing Surya or

>

> Chandra is something that I am not able to follow.

>

>

>

> Would you care to explain the source for mapping them to Surya or

>

> Chandra and then on to day or night rasis, which I presume is being

>

> discussed. Or are you talking about some different shloka?

>

> Regards,

>

> Chandrashekhar.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> pvr108 wrote:

>

>

>

> > Dear Raman,

>

> >

>

> > > For Sun and Moon, there are no day signs and night

signs. Hence we

>

> > consider

>

> > > Cancer for Moon and Leo for Sun. This ensures

consistency.

>

> >

>

> > I argue that this does not ensure consistency, but makes

things

>

> > highly inconsistent. You are mapping both the halves of Vi to

night

>

> > signs (Ge and Cn) and both the halves of Li to day signs (Li

and

>

> > Le). This is a total collapse of the paradigm of each sign

mapped to

>

> > one day sign and one night sign. If the only reason for

breaking the

>

> > paradigm is that Sun and Moon have only sign, why can't we

combine

>

> > them so that there are two signs now?

>

> >

>

> > The dichotomy of day/night is created by Sun and Moon and the

zodiac

>

> > is divided into two halves. Each planet except Sun and Moon

own one

>

> > day sign and one night sign each. The irony of this whole

thing is

>

> > that Sun and Moon created this whole dichotomy, but they need

to

>

> > combine into ONE entity in order to take part in this

dichotomy!

>

> >

>

> > In JHora, I will give Raman Hora the way you defined it now.

After

>

> > all, it is your research. But I will also give a variation

based on

>

> > the Cn/Le change I am suggesting. Ironically, you too had it

the way

>

> > I like it in your original rough draft that was uploaded!

>

> >

>

> > Despite my strong reservation about your treatment of Cn and

Le, I

>

> > think the whole idea of combining two seemingly disjoint

statements

>

> > of Varahamihira into one coherent teaching is quite brilliant

and I

>

> > look forward to more contributions from you to the knowledge

pool of

>

> > Jyotisha!

>

> >

>

> > May Jupiter's light shine on us,

>

> > Narasimha

>

> >

-------------------------------

>

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

>

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

>

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

> >

-------------------------------

>

> >

>

> > vedic astrology, "Raman Suprajarama"

>

> > <cru115@n...> wrote:

>

> > > Dear Narasimha Rao,

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > The idea behind hora charts is quite clear. Sun and Moon

are

>

> > considered as

>

> > > different entities and that is the reason we have Day

signs and

>

> > Night signs.

>

> > > If we were to consider Sun and Moon as same, then the

Hora charts

>

> > would have

>

> > > been based on a different concept altogether.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > For Sun and Moon, there are no day signs and night

signs. Hence we

>

> > consider

>

> > > Cancer for Moon and Leo for Sun. This ensures

consistency. We can

>

> > ofcourse

>

> > > argue that we get two Day signs and two Night signs.

But, of the

>

> > two

>

> > > options, what I have written is more consistent with the

original

>

> > idea.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Shiva and Parvathi, in the true sense, are actually one.

But we

>

> > live in a

>

> > > mortal world, where we clearly differentiate everything,

thanks to

>

> > our ego.

>

> > > The aspects seen in the Hora chart are actually those

which

>

> > strengthen the

>

> > > desire/ego. Finance, family, etc are strong "bond

creating"

>

> > entities. No

>

> > > wonder there is a differentiation between the Sun and

the Moon!

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Om Tat Sat,

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Raman Suprajarama

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > vedic astrology

>

> > > [vedic astrology] On Behalf Of

pvr108

>

> > > Wednesday, August 17, 2005 8:00 PM

>

> > > vedic astrology

>

> > > [vedic astrology] Cn and Le Riddle (Re:

(Multiple

>

> > replies) RE: New

>

> > > method...)

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Dear Raman,

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > > Virgo Gemini Cancer

>

> > >

>

> > > >

>

> > >

>

> > > > Libra Libra Leo

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Thank you for correcting these two rows in the table (in

addition

>

> > to

>

> > >

>

> > > the Scorpio row with a typo). However, I like the

original entries

>

> > >

>

> > > given in the PDF file better than your corrected entries

above!

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > The whole idea was that one half of the sign said to be

Sun's hora

>

> > >

>

> > > would be a day sign and the other half of the sign said

to be

>

> > Moon's

>

> > >

>

> > > hora would be a night sign. Above, you are mapping the

halves of

>

> > Vi

>

> > >

>

> > > to Ge and Cn, BOTH NIGHT signs. Also, you are mapping

the halves

>

> > of

>

> > >

>

> > > Li to Li and Le, BOTH DAY signs. The whole paradigm has

been

>

> > broken!

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > According to the teachings of Parasara and Varahamihira,

clearly

>

> > the

>

> > >

>

> > > second half of even sign Vi should be in Sun's hora

(i.e. a day

>

> > >

>

> > > sign). It can't be Cn. Similarly, the second half of odd

sign Li

>

> > >

>

> > > should be in Moon's hora (i.e. a night sign). It can't

be Le.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > If you switch Cn and Le in the above rows (i.e. go back

to how

>

> > they

>

> > >

>

> > > were in the table in the PDF file), it would adhere to

the

>

> > paradigm.

>

> > >

>

> > > I find it more logical.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > As Sun and Moon own only one sign, finding a day/night

sign owned

>

> > by

>

> > >

>

> > > them is a problem unlike other planets. Considering

Shiva and

>

> > >

>

> > > Parvati to be one is the only way out. This issue is

encountered

>

> > so

>

> > >

>

> > > many times in Jyotisha (e.g. Kalachakra dasa).

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Warm regards,

>

> > >

>

> > > Narasimha

 

 

 

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