Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Dear All, This is a mail previously posted by me on this forum. I am requesting 'those who are against the existence of Nirayana astrology in Vedic period' to read it again. This mail was written as a reply to krishnan koul for his postings. Love Sree Dear jyotirved and Krishen Kaul, I have read several of your previous mails on this forum. What you should straightly say is that you follow the sayana system and you ask us to follow the same. I am not interested, as I well understand that any system that finds its base in Yuga system is a Nirayana system. Suryasidhantha (by Maya) calculations uses the Yuga rationale and thus propose a Nirayana System. We need a fixed (constant) framework to note the movements in sky and except the Nirayana system none gives it. In that sense it is much advanced and systematic than Sayana system, which bases itself on a moving framework and which has got 2 points of equal importance vis Vernal and Autumnal Equinox. I know that the Vedas says mostly about the Sayana system and only rearly gives indications about the existence of a Nirayana system in those days. But the Vedic or Non-Vedic foundation (or origin) of the Nirayana system is not enough to keep me away from a system that is more scientific and systematic. (Even if Nirayana system is Vedic, Non-Vedic or Tantric I will follow that system as its beauty captures my attention). Just think, even the word Nakshatra (used in Vedas) refer to the fixed areas in sky. In Vedas you cannot see a single use of the word Nakshatra to refer to other constellations/stars other than the fixed stellar divisions. This is ample proof for the fact that Nirayana Predictive astrology existed in Vedic period. Don't just simply argue that only Sayana astrology is mentioned in Vedas. [before trying to make fun of the word 'Vedic' used in the name of this forum, please consider such arguments] Even though little out of context one thing I would like to mention is that the best person you can argue with in such matters is Chandrahari, who has done an elaborate study of the subject. Dear Krishnan Kaul if you are the person who wrote the article 'Predictive astrology is not Vedic at all' in the 1999 ephemeris, your intentions are pretty clear. I heard that you escaped an argument with Chandrahari even when he was ready to supply the relevant material (The incident is well discussed with details in Hari's book Hindu Zodiac). Let me quote 2 or 3 para 'Hindu Zodiac', which could be considered as a reply to Kaul. After discussing the mathematical foundations of Nirayana System in detail, he says- "What made Kaul to drift from Citrapaksa to the Sayana Rasichakra is the lack of any physical rationale behind the Citrapaksa Rasichakra and the allusions that we see in the Vedic and Puranic literature of a Zodiac pivoted on the cardinal points. As we have seen already no scientific mind can accept the irrational proposition of an arbitrary choice of the initial point such as the point opposite Citra or that of Ravathi to define the rasi naksatra substratum employed in astrology. Equally disastrous is the sayana conception of a regressing zero point or a Rasichakra having rasis and naksatras undergoing perpetual modification of their limits due to the precession of the equinoxes. Notwithstanding certain silly comments made by Kaul on the supposed fixity of the sidereal zodiac, I am to uphold that the sidereal zodiac I have presented - the Muladhara Rahu-Sikhi Cakra - is eternally fixed and even if it is proven that Mula is having a proper motion of one second or two second over a millennium, it is of no consequence here in view of the occult and physical principles over which the fiducial star is based (as already outlined in the preceding section of the book Hindu Zodiac). In contrast to the Tantric zodiac, the sayana seasonal or calendar zodiac has no locus standee in astrology in view of the two equinoxes and two solstices, which equally qualify as the zero point." "Since time immemorial the zodiac has been sidereal as is evident from the 12 Rasis and 27 Nakshatras having fixed limits and shapes. Equinoxes and Solstices traversing the symbolic stellar background inspired the Vedic seers to record them in mythological descriptions. They have no permanent association with the solar ingress into Mesha, Tula, Karkataka, and Makara. Confusion prevailing is the result of Sidhantic texts that assumed zero ayanamsa or coincidence of the sidereal and tropical zodiacs at their respective epochs". "It is absurd to speak of the naksatras beginning with vernal equinox whether it is Asvini or Krittika>>>>If Krittika was the appellation given to the naksatra of vernal equinox, how can be identify the naksatra?" If nakshatra division starts with the vernal equinox how can we say that the vernal equinox *traverse* through Nakshatras and Rasis? The plenty evidence in favor of the movement of vernal equinox through Nakshatras, point to the existence of well developed and systematic Nirayana (sidereal) system in Vedic period. Otherwise how can it be said that once the vernal equinox was in Mrigasira and then in Krittika? If stellar divisions start with vernal equinox and if the counting is started from Krittika or Aswani, the Vernal equinox will be always in that Nakshatra only!! Dear Kaul how can you propose such an absurd system? You are making fun of the intelligence of the Vedic Seers!! There is no possibility that apart from the Nirayana system the Sayana system proposed by the Vedic seers is the same as the one proposed by you. [Please consider this point as well, before trying to make fun of the word 'Vedic' used in the name of this forum] Another point is that, it is impossible for you to convince me or many in this forum, because we are getting accurate results using the Nirayana system while predicting. "Jyothisha phalamadesa, Phalardhamarambhanam bhavathi loke". Astrologers should predict accurately. None will work on a system, if it is fruitless. i.e. if he is unable to get correct results by using that system. The whole effort of astrology is in this direction. I should state that Nirayana system is capable of giving accurate results, which we know from our daily experience. As I know that both Sayana and Nirayana predictive system existed in Vedic period, I will not say that by using Sayana system you can not get the same. Any point in a circle can serve the purpose of a zero point and an intelligent person can develop a system based on any of those points. Such system may give accurate results for a short period. But if one wants to have a system that gives accurate results for long, i.e. even generation after generations, he should depend on a point that has got some special importance. Only the Nirayana Zero point and the Vernal/Autumnal equinoxes of the Sayana system qualify for this. And that is why only these two systems existed in Vedic period. As the Nirayana system gives only one point of unique importance and gives us a fixed framework to assess the movements upon, it should be better for predicting destiny than the sayana system. Of course (as proved by evidences from Vedic literature) Sayana system is better to be used for the purpose of Agriculture calendar, Climate studies and fixing of Yaga timings and festivals that are related to agriculture and climatic changes. Therefore truly we appreciate and praise the Sayana system as well. But you should realize that most of the astrological classics (used to analyze destiny and deals with predictive astrology) are written keeping Nirayana system in mind. There are ample proofs for this in astrological classics. (Of course there might be some books like Manasagari or the like which by giving jenma phala for abhijit star and the like indicate that they followed Sayana system, or rather confused about what system to follow). As far as this forum is concerned most of us use JHora software developed by PVR, which gives us complete freedom in selecting either Sayana or Nirayana calculations. I don't think that the originators or moderators of this forum are against Sayana System. Any body is free to follow the method they find good, acceptable, and gives correct results. It is you people who are *against* the Nirayana system. Therefore it is your trouble, and we are not at all worried. We respect those who follow the Sayana system and Nirayana system equally. (I am stating this not on behalf of this forum, but on behalf of the thousands who follow the Nirayana system). Still I think that most of the scholars participating in discussion of this forum are the followers of Nirayana system. With warm regards, Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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