Guest guest Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 Dear Pradeep, I am Prashant, we are meeting after a long time and now in the group. I saw your postings and I am happy that you have continued the efforts which I left half way through in the group. It is good to strive for truth. You have raised some valid points. I shall advice you to learn by considering the whole string of events which shall reflect classical principles. Narasimha Raoji's reply has only exposed weakness - He hs failed to explain the salient feature of life despite the lucid expression and contrast that chandra hari had provided. I have been associated with Chandra Hari, since the first release of his book Rasichakram in malayalam in 1996. His work has progressed tremendously adding more and more wonderful facts that attest the truth of the Siddha tradition. He has seldom written a line which he cannot defend - all over Kerala his work has got discussed and the acceptance of the ayanamsa is improving. Efforts are also being made by people like Pellissery to release a Panchangam so that the time element in observances can be corrected. We have tried to test his samkrama theory of breath and has found it correct. But official studies that rules out the bias of the individual are awaited by physiologists. Prashant vedic astrology, "vijayadas_pradeep" <vijayadas_pradeep> wrote: > > Dear Narasimha ji > > If i am allowed to intervene.. > > NR: That a planet in Leo cannot give foreign journey is YOUR theory. > > Pradeep:Where did shri Chandrahari say that Leo will not take one to foreign.He said Sani in Leo will take one to forests rather then water as Guru in Karka can. > Dahsa was that of Ketu.Now Ketu should give results of sign lord as well as conjunction.Sign lord is Budha Vidya Karaka in 2nd.Conjnuncted by 9th lord Mars.Ketu is placed in the 4th.Thus Ketu can be related to 4th and 9th matters.Ketu has got the capacity to take one abroad.Do you deny? > > Now as shri Chandra hari has rightly asked why did Tagore travel? Was that an expatriation of a criminal.It was for better education.Antar dasha of exalted Lagna & 10th Lord can better explain, than that of the 12th lord shani in Leo in the 6th.You are prepared to consider Scorpio in D-4 (this i will to come later) taking into account of Jalarashi.But you cannot simple see the nature of Shani in Leo and nature of Guru in Karaka.Is this special oversight a reason for yourself unable to see a point in C.Hari's arguments. > > Now what is this D-4 /'' The CHART OF ''fortune and residence.Prashara never mentioned of any such CHARTS.Those who have not understood what an amsha is can only imagine of such.If it is your understanding and as you are also involved in proliferation of such - you cannot run away from the moral responsiblitiy of explaining or justifying your understanding.Only point you have is - it is working fine for me!!!.Can this be an objective approach from a student of science as well as divine philosophies. > > We have involved in lenghty debates.I have answered all your queries.You have neither classical nor logical points to defend your case.Some months back you were of the opinion that amshas are some mappings into some IMAGINARY Zodiacs.I am glad that you were ready to drop such baseless understandings.But Still you are coming again with hundred percent confidence!!! - D-4 ,4th ,9th,Ketu lording 12th and all.If you are not prepared to accept outcome of debates - why do you want to waste each others time?If you think there was no outcome please reply to my last email. > > In similar lines you are able to counter C.Haris arguments only by bringing in some maraka in navamsha ,7th lord in navamsha etc.What is a navamsha and how do you find 7th lord of a navamsha!!!! Based on our debate can you still turn a blind eye towards Jyotishawisdom. > > It is not a question of rejecting Lahiri and accepting C.Hari Ayanasmha.As Lahiri themselves have expressed concern we have a possibilitiy to experiment with C.Hari Ayanamsha. > > If you have invented a theory that sages have not taught - You HAVE to defend them - either Classically or Logically.(Tarka and Pramana as Chandrashekharji has rightly mentioned).If you want to proliferate them without being able to defend - You may very well - But you are then not doing them within the realms of NEETHI and NYAYA. > > > Thanks > Pradeep > > vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@c...> wrote: > > > > Dear Chandra Hari, > > > > Other discussions can remain private, but I think it is important to have the discussion on Tagore's chart publicly. Some of your followers made Tagore's a chart a big deal in past and projected as though this chart "proves" your ayanamsa. When I finally took a look at all your points, I saw nothing like that. > > > > <<CH: To my mind Saturn is in fixed sign Leo which rules over Hills, Dales and Fore! sts and as such could not have given the sea journey which involved a month long stay over water in ship. You have not answered to the discussion I have given. I have already discussed the Saturn and clarified its demerits and Guru's features etc. I am quoting below for ready reference: And please note that the date was 20th September 1878 and the sub_sub_period of Ketu had begun on 19 September 1878 and prevailed up to 9 October. >> > > > > NR: That a planet in Leo cannot give foreign journey is YOUR theory. You cannot decide these things merely by the nature of signs and without looking at houses and house ownerships. Saturn is the 12th lord aspecting 12th in rasi and 12th lord in 9th in watery Sc in D-4. To you, lagna lord exalted in 5th can give a foreign journey just on account of being in a watery sign. To me, that is unacceptable and 12th lord is 100 times more likely to give a foreign travel, irrespective of whether he is in a watery sign or a fiery sign. Moreover, Saturn IS in watery Sc in D-4. > > > > And, I don't see what problem you have with Ketu's pratyantardasa. In D-4 (the chart of fortune and residence), Ketu is the 12th lord in lagna in a watery sign Pisces. He can certainly keep him on ocean for a month. I fail to see what your problem is with Ketu's pratyantardasa. > > > > <<CH: When BVR ayanamsa is justifying Tagore's life, there is no surprise at all in finding some correlations with Lahiri. Instead of justification are we able to learn something from the discussion we are making? Are we able to realize our mindset that attempts to explain everything by inventing logics?>> > > > > NR: For your kind information, that may be said about YOU too. As I see it, YOU are "inventing logics". To me, planets associated with 9th and 12th give foreign travel and lagna lord in 5th gives patriotism and repatriation. It is absolutely impossible for Jupiter antardasa to take him abroad. You are justifying it because Jupiter is in a watery sign. To me, THAT is "inventing logic". > > > > Saturn giving foreign residence is a clean logic, given all the simple factors I mentioned. > > > > <<CH: I don't think that the astrology that you speak here is that ancient wisdom of the Sages. You are speaking of Arudha of 5th house etc in D10 - as a good friend my advice is to come out of this illusion. Creation of these kinds of techniques and propagation of the same will make astrology a laughing stock! in the eyes of modern critical/scientific minds. I cannot reply to this kind of illusive astrology - please refer to the statistical proof I have given against the double transit theory of Sri KN Rao and I hope you will be able to understand the fallacy of postmortem analysis with multiple significators. >> > > > > NR: Thank you for your "advice". You may be right - I may indeed be in an "illusion" and I may "make astrology a laughing stock". But, by merely claiming so, you are not going to convince me so and lift me out of this "illusion". Unless you clearly show me why I am wrong, I will remain in that "illusion". > > > > Arudha padas WERE defined by Sage Parasara and not by me. The meaning of the term chosen (arudha pada) itself gives a clue as to what it is and how it should be used. Furthermore, several results were given by Parasara and others and they give a clue as to what arudha padas show. I have a coherent understanding of what houses show vs what their arudha padas show, based on what Parasara and other taught. I am happy with my understanding. > > > > If you give any convincing logic against my understanding, I will consider your views. Until then, you just come across as a highly opinionated person who pronounces strong judgments without giving any convincing logic. I have the option of either leaving all my previous studies and experiments and following you or sticking to my ground. I choose the latter. > > > > <<CH: Here you have nothing to say as you have placed marriage in Venus_Sun_Rahu. Now with the ayanamsa I have given the 7th house event is coming in Surya_Rahu as death of wife - afflicted Navamsa_Lagna_LORD and 6th lord. You are justifying Guru without thinking that why such an afflicted 6th lord Sun and Rahu did not cause the tragedy? This is what the wrong ayanamsa has been doing always - good planets were made sinners and then theories were created.>> > > > > NR: What do you mean I have nothing to say. I had something to say and said it: "Jupiter is the 8th lord in 7th, i.e. a maraka, in navamsa. Saturn, OTOH, is the 7th lord and protects wife. It is Jupiter can harm and end the marriage." > > > > The 8th lord in 7th is a maraka (killer). In navamsa, he kills the marriage. In dasamsa, he kills career. In D-24, he kills education. > > > > Sun and Rahu, OTOH, are the 1st and 7th lords together. I don't see them killing marriage, but see them giving marriage. > > > > Regarding "wrong ayanamsa" and "theories" etc, I can say the same thing about your views. If we have to debate productively about a disagreement as two intelligent people, we have to give the benefit of doubt and respect to the other! > > > > To you, your logic is simple and mine is convoluted. To me, it's the other way around. To me, 9th and 12th lords give foreign travel and not the lagna lord in 5th. You say that I am creating theories, but it seems to me like YOU are creating theories to justify the ayanamsa that you created. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > - > > chandra hari > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao > > Monday, November 21, 2005 8:35 AM > > Re: Tagore comments ... > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > My comments are given below in blue. > > > > > > Dear Chandra Hari, > > > > I will continue to communicate wi! th you on other matters privately. But I will cc this one mail to the lists, as the list may be interested in this too. I hope you don't mind. > > > > I will explain the events using the tenets of astrology that *I* know, without stretching things and without being intellectually dishonest. > > > > 1. Voyage: Jupiter is the lagna lord in the 5th house. I absolutely cannot explain Jupiter guiving foreign travel. Saturn is the 12th lord aspecting 12th house. He is in the 9th from Rahu (karaka lagna). > > > > I see D-4 for residence and foreign travel. In D-4, Saturn is the 12th lkord in 9th in watery Scorpio. > > > > Based on the astrology that I know and practice, Saturn ius a clear winner. I am not inventing logic. The 9th house, 12th house, Rahu (karaka) and D-4 being used for foreign travel are basic factors I use always. > > > > To my mind Saturn is in fixed sign Leo which rules over Hills, Dales and Fore! sts and as such could not have given the sea journey which involved a month long stay over water in ship. You have not answered to the discussion I have given. I have already discussed the Saturn and clarified its demerits and Guru's features etc. I am quoting below for ready reference: And please note that the date was 20th September 1878 and the sub_sub_period of Ketu had begun on 19 September 1878 and prevailed up to 9 October. > > > > § What was the purpose of his voyage? For studying - which is more suitable, 10th lord in 5th or 12th lord in 6th in fixed sign? > > § Dasa is of Ketu in the 4th and as such leaving home in the dasa of a planet in Chara_jala rasi is not possible? See the Ketu's Pratyantar dasa What you ha! ve to say about that? See what I have written about Sani below - I have discussed Sani's merits as 12th lord but the nature of the event does not award him the credit and the right bhukti is Ketu dasa_Guru_Ketu. > > > > > > 1. Voyage to Europe - 18th year - September 1878: Ketu (dasa) - Guru (bhukti): Lahiri puts the event in Sani (bhukti) - Which is the right choice, Guru or Sani for the voyage for studies, career, across the seas? > > § Sani of Simha takes one to the hills or to the sea? > > § Guru of Kataka versus Sani of Simha - which one is more appropriate for sea voyage? > > § Event is going abroad, yes, Sani can cause the event by 12th lordship - but contrast the nature of the event and Rasi-seelam. Journe! y is for career and across the sea - life in sea - perhaps it took weeks to reach UK. Which planet could have given such a life in the ship, in the ocean? > > § Guru is in exchange with Chandra - two watery signs influence Guru and Mahayoga - can there be any other candidate to cause a voyage across the sea? Just think over, I have no assertions. > > § If suppose we take Sani as causing this voyage, another query comes - Why the Guru bhukti failed to cause any development in his career des! pite being 10th lord exalted in 5th in exchange with Chandra? > > § Sanjay says, it is improper to travel during Guru, Tagore was in ship - in a moving Home in the ocean. Separation from home is well explained by Dasa lord Ketu in the 4th. > > § Raman's ayanamsa - no comments. Sukra-Sukra, in astrology anything can be justified by inventing logic because a great majority has no scientific thinking and! Upasana. > > > > See, Sri BV Raman's ayanamsa and astrology. His followers will also ! explain the event. > > > > 2.. Venus is karaka in own navamsa, true. But Sun is the lagna lord joining 7th lord Rahu in navamsa. Definitely, Venus-Sun-Rahu pratyantardasa is a good candidate. Yes, Venus-Venus could have given it too. But being karaka isn't enough. The 1st and 7th houses of navamsa are as important as karaka. > > > > You are telling that Sukra_Sukra wa! s not appropriate for marriage and Sukra _ Surya was better. You are undermining 'karaka' and attaching importance here to Navamsa 1st and 7th. Which Navamsa - a Navamsa centered over the 6th house and whose Lagna_lord is in the company of Rahu? 6th house causes or denies marriage? > > > > Again you have not addressed the discussion I have given. What you say I have already discussed in reply to Sanjay Rath's analysis. > > > > > > 2. Marriage 9 December 1883: Sukra (d) - Sukra (b): Kalatrakaraka and own varga in Navamsa are the only factors, I can point out. If Surya could cause marriage by virtue of association with Sukra and Budha by partaking their qualities and duties, why didn't Sukra cause marriage in his own bhukti? We must apply logic fully to churn out the truth. ! > > § Surya could have caused marriage, had there been failure by Sukra - not by virtue of association but because he is lord of Navamsa-Lagna. Of course, affliction of Surya by Rahu was an affliction over his marital life. > > § We must note that the Kalatrakaraka is in own varga in Navamsa and thus favorable to cause marriage. > > § Imagine a situation of 1881 - when an astrologer could have predicted Tagore's marriage - in Sukra-Sukra that is unfolding or could anyone have said: Sukra cannot cause marriage in his bhukti and Surya, the 6th Lord shall cause marriage? > > § If Raman's Venus-Moon is correct, what is Raman's explanation for Venus and Sun not causing marriage in their bhuktis? Raman needed s! uch things as stellar influence to justify his ayanamsa. What for is then Rasi and Vargas? Stellar lordship is above Rasi and Varga? Raman's ayanamsa can be justified only with Raman's astrology. > > > > ! > > 3.. Get the correct date and also tell me if she was the first child or second child, i.e. if there was an abortion first. Then I will look at it. > > > > See my discussion again. Have you replied that? Date, you can also try to get it and that is required for you to prove your ayanamsa. For me that is not required. 5th September 1885 to 7th May 1887 was Moon's period. > > > > When BVR ayanamsa is justifying Tagore's life, there is no surprise at all in finding some correlations with Lahiri. Instead of justification are we able to learn something from the discussion we are making? Are we able to realize our mindset that attempts to explain everything by inventing logics? > > > > 3. 1886 - His daughter Madhuri Lata was born in Sukra-Chandra (b): Whole of 1886 Chandra bhukti prevailed. With Raman marriage in Moon and Child in Rahu - and the chart has the exchange of first lord Guru and 5th lord Chandra? > > a.. Sanjay has to hope for the event before June 1886 to place the birth of daughter in Venus-Moon? Justifies Mars too. Good. > > b.. But while justifying Mars, should we not think as to why Chandra did not give him a daughter during its bhukti despite being lord of 5th in exchange with Guru? Unless, we answer this part, the predictive logic cannot be complete. > > So all the three ayanamsas may be explaining child birth but Lahiri & Raman cannot explain as to why Chandra did not give him a child during its bhukti or why ! Sukra did not cause marriage to Tagore in Sukra bhukti. Only an integrated evaluation can lead us to the truth > > > > 4. The 5th house is abilities and scholarship. While houses show intangible aspects of matters, their arudha padas show the tangible manifestation. Bhava means a a concept or thought or a meaning. Arudha means raised. Pada means a symbol or a word. Padas are to bhavas what words/symbols are to meanings/concepts. Meanings, thoughts and concepts that one has in one's mind are intangible to others, while words used to express them are tangible to others.! > > > > In my approach, I always see tangible aspects of various matters from arudha padas. While the 4th house shows one's happiness from vehicle (intangible), the arudha pada of 4th house shows vehicle itself (a tangible article). While the 5th house may show one's abilities and scholarship, arudha pada of 5th house may show tanginle articles reflecting on it, such as awards, prizes, certificates etc. > > > > Similarly, Shanti Niketan is a tangible thing. I'll see it from the arudha pada of 5th house in dasamsa chart. Of course, I don't buy your Rx10 and will use the standard Parasari dasamsa which I have used in hundreds of charts to make predictions. > > > > In D-10, A5 (arudha pada of 5th house) is in Leo. The 3rd lord (initiative) Rahu is in it and its lord is Sun, who is in lagna. No wonder, Sun-Rahu antardasa gave rise to Shanti Niketan. > > > > I don't think that the astrology that you speak here is that ancient wisdom of the Sages. You are speaking of Arudha of 5th house etc in D10 - as a good friend my advice is to come out of this illusion. Creation of these kinds of techniques and propagation of the same will make astrology a laughing stock! in the eyes of modern critical/scientific minds. I cannot reply to this kind of illusive astrology - please refer to the statistical proof I have given against the double transit theory of Sri KN Rao and I hope you will be able to understand the fallacy of postmortem analysis with multiple significators. > > > > 4.. Jupiter is the 8th lord in 7th, i.e. a maraka, in navamsa. Saturn, OTOH, is the 7th lord and protects wife. It is Jupiter can harm and end the marriage. > > > > Here you have nothing to say as you have placed marriage in Venus_Sun_Rahu. Now with the ayanamsa I have given the 7th house event is coming in Surya_Rahu as death of wife - afflicted Navamsa_Lagna_LORD and 6th lord. You are justifying Guru without thinking that why such an afflicted 6th lord Sun and Rahu did not cause the tragedy? This is what the wrong ayanamsa has been doing always - good planets were made sinners and then theories were created. > > > > Death of Wife - Mrinalini Devi on 23.11.1902: Raman places the event in Sun-Sat. Lahiri has the tragic event in Surya-Guru (b): How can this be explained? > > § Lahiri - How can Surya (d) - Guru (b) kill the wife? > > § Sun - Rahu (b) - I will put the blame on the affliction by Rahu on Navamsa-Lagnapati. Lagna had navamsa in 6th with the lord afflicted by Rahu - this is a very correct principle - afflicted lord of navamsa Lagna affects marital life. > > § Rahu's lordship, I don't use. With my experience of the tradition, I am not aware of a logic like Rahu is 7th lord or similar. > > > > 6-7. I'll leave for now. Want to hurry up and sleep. You don't seem to have the exact dates too. > > > > 8. I agree Mercury AD is better. But the AD change happened in Sept 1913. With a little difference in birthtime, the event can move to Mercury AD even with Lahiri ayanamsa. So let us skip this border case. > > > > 9. We use D-24 for learning matters. In D-24, the 2nd house is occupied by Moon and owned by Ketu. Moon-Ketu can give an advanced degree. > > > > 10. When using Vimsottari dasa as a maraka dasa (as opposed to an ayurdasa), I did not get perf! ect results by sticking to normal Janma Vimsottari dasa. In some charts, Kshema Vimsottari dasa or Adhana Vimsottari dasa work better. In Tagore's case, there are more planets in quadrants from Kshema nakshatra (Krittika) than from Janma nakshatra (Revati). As per this variation, his death occurred in Mercury-Venus-Mercury pratyantardasa. Mercury is the 7th lord and Venus is the 7th lord and both occupy the 2nd house. Based on classic Parasari principles, they are both perfect marakas! > > > > If you try a number of Dasas somewhere you will find correlation. Krishnamurthy Paddhati, Kalachakra dasa in various interpretations and Paramayu shishtam all h! ave received horoscopic substantiation. For those who use right ayanamsa such new techniques are not required. Vimsottari is good enough, marakatva rules are sufficient and so on. With wrong ayanamsa you need wrong techniques like the same wrong ayanamsa. > > > > "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" pvr@c... wrote: > > Dear Chandra Hari, > > > > I will continue to communicate with you on other matters privately. But I will cc this one mail to the lists, as the list may be interested in this too. I hope you don't mind. > > > > > > > > -------------------------------- ------------- > > FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2005 Report Share Posted November 27, 2005 Dear Shri Prashanth Thanks for your mail and comments. Lat us all work towards the understanding of true knowledge.If we are on the right path,then we need not fear at all. We have to apply C.Hari ayanamsha in comparison to Lahiri over numerous horoscopes before arriving at a conclusion.In the mean time vague principles like Varga charts can be challenged with confidence. Thanks Pradeep vedic astrology, "hinduzodiac" <hinduzodiac> wrote: > > > Dear Pradeep, > > I am Prashant, we are meeting after a long time and now in the > group. I saw your postings and I am happy that you have continued > the efforts which I left half way through in the group. It is good > to strive for truth. > > You have raised some valid points. I shall advice you to learn by > considering the whole string of events which shall reflect classical > principles. Narasimha Raoji's reply has only exposed weakness - He > hs failed to explain the salient feature of life despite the lucid > expression and contrast that chandra hari had provided. > > > I have been associated with Chandra Hari, since the first release of > his book Rasichakram in malayalam in 1996. His work has progressed > tremendously adding more and more wonderful facts that attest the > truth of the Siddha tradition. He has seldom written a line which he > cannot defend - all over Kerala his work has got discussed and the > acceptance of the ayanamsa is improving. Efforts are also being made > by people like Pellissery to release a Panchangam so that the time > element in observances can be corrected. > > We have tried to test his samkrama theory of breath and has found it > correct. But official studies that rules out the bias of the > individual are awaited by physiologists. > > Prashant vedic astrology, "vijayadas_pradeep" > <vijayadas_pradeep> wrote: > > > > Dear Narasimha ji > > > > If i am allowed to intervene.. > > > > NR: That a planet in Leo cannot give foreign journey is YOUR > theory. > > > > Pradeep:Where did shri Chandrahari say that Leo will not take one > to foreign.He said Sani in Leo will take one to forests rather then > water as Guru in Karka can. > > Dahsa was that of Ketu.Now Ketu should give results of sign lord > as well as conjunction.Sign lord is Budha Vidya Karaka in > 2nd.Conjnuncted by 9th lord Mars.Ketu is placed in the 4th.Thus Ketu > can be related to 4th and 9th matters.Ketu has got the capacity to > take one abroad.Do you deny? > > > > Now as shri Chandra hari has rightly asked why did Tagore travel? > Was that an expatriation of a criminal.It was for better > education.Antar dasha of exalted Lagna & 10th Lord can better > explain, than that of the 12th lord shani in Leo in the 6th.You are > prepared to consider Scorpio in D-4 (this i will to come later) > taking into account of Jalarashi.But you cannot simple see the > nature of Shani in Leo and nature of Guru in Karaka.Is this special > oversight a reason for yourself unable to see a point in C.Hari's > arguments. > > > > Now what is this D-4 /'' The CHART OF ''fortune and > residence.Prashara never mentioned of any such CHARTS.Those who have > not understood what an amsha is can only imagine of such.If it is > your understanding and as you are also involved in proliferation of > such - you cannot run away from the moral responsiblitiy of > explaining or justifying your understanding.Only point you have is - > it is working fine for me!!!.Can this be an objective approach from > a student of science as well as divine philosophies. > > > > We have involved in lenghty debates.I have answered all your > queries.You have neither classical nor logical points to defend your > case.Some months back you were of the opinion that amshas are some > mappings into some IMAGINARY Zodiacs.I am glad that you were ready > to drop such baseless understandings.But Still you are coming again > with hundred percent confidence!!! - D-4 ,4th ,9th,Ketu lording > 12th and all.If you are not prepared to accept outcome of debates - > why do you want to waste each others time?If you think there was no > outcome please reply to my last email. > > > > In similar lines you are able to counter C.Haris arguments only > by bringing in some maraka in navamsha ,7th lord in navamsha > etc.What is a navamsha and how do you find 7th lord of a navamsha!!!! > Based on our debate can you still turn a blind eye towards > Jyotishawisdom. > > > > It is not a question of rejecting Lahiri and accepting C.Hari > Ayanasmha.As Lahiri themselves have expressed concern we have a > possibilitiy to experiment with C.Hari Ayanamsha. > > > > If you have invented a theory that sages have not taught - You > HAVE to defend them - either Classically or Logically.(Tarka and > Pramana as Chandrashekharji has rightly mentioned).If you want to > proliferate them without being able to defend - You may very well - > But you are then not doing them within the realms of NEETHI and > NYAYA. > > > > > > Thanks > > Pradeep > > > > vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" > <pvr@c...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Chandra Hari, > > > > > > Other discussions can remain private, but I think it is > important to have the discussion on Tagore's chart publicly. Some of > your followers made Tagore's a chart a big deal in past and > projected as though this chart "proves" your ayanamsa. When I > finally took a look at all your points, I saw nothing like that. > > > > > > <<CH: To my mind Saturn is in fixed sign Leo which rules over > Hills, Dales and Fore! sts and as such could not have given the sea > journey which involved a month long stay over water in ship. You > have not answered to the discussion I have given. I have already > discussed the Saturn and clarified its demerits and Guru's features > etc. I am quoting below for ready reference: And please note that > the date was 20th September 1878 and the sub_sub_period of Ketu had > begun on 19 September 1878 and prevailed up to 9 October. >> > > > > > > NR: That a planet in Leo cannot give foreign journey is YOUR > theory. You cannot decide these things merely by the nature of signs > and without looking at houses and house ownerships. Saturn is the > 12th lord aspecting 12th in rasi and 12th lord in 9th in watery Sc > in D-4. To you, lagna lord exalted in 5th can give a foreign journey > just on account of being in a watery sign. To me, that is > unacceptable and 12th lord is 100 times more likely to give a > foreign travel, irrespective of whether he is in a watery sign or a > fiery sign. Moreover, Saturn IS in watery Sc in D-4. > > > > > > And, I don't see what problem you have with Ketu's > pratyantardasa. In D-4 (the chart of fortune and residence), Ketu is > the 12th lord in lagna in a watery sign Pisces. He can certainly > keep him on ocean for a month. I fail to see what your problem is > with Ketu's pratyantardasa. > > > > > > <<CH: When BVR ayanamsa is justifying Tagore's life, there is no > surprise at all in finding some correlations with Lahiri. Instead of > justification are we able to learn something from the discussion we > are making? Are we able to realize our mindset that attempts to > explain everything by inventing logics?>> > > > > > > NR: For your kind information, that may be said about YOU too. > As I see it, YOU are "inventing logics". To me, planets associated > with 9th and 12th give foreign travel and lagna lord in 5th gives > patriotism and repatriation. It is absolutely impossible for Jupiter > antardasa to take him abroad. You are justifying it because Jupiter > is in a watery sign. To me, THAT is "inventing logic". > > > > > > Saturn giving foreign residence is a clean logic, given all the > simple factors I mentioned. > > > > > > <<CH: I don't think that the astrology that you speak here is > that ancient wisdom of the Sages. You are speaking of Arudha of 5th > house etc in D10 - as a good friend my advice is to come out of this > illusion. Creation of these kinds of techniques and propagation of > the same will make astrology a laughing stock! in the eyes of modern > critical/scientific minds. I cannot reply to this kind of illusive > astrology - please refer to the statistical proof I have given > against the double transit theory of Sri KN Rao and I hope you will > be able to understand the fallacy of postmortem analysis with > multiple significators. >> > > > > > > NR: Thank you for your "advice". You may be right - I may indeed > be in an "illusion" and I may "make astrology a laughing stock". > But, by merely claiming so, you are not going to convince me so and > lift me out of this "illusion". Unless you clearly show me why I am > wrong, I will remain in that "illusion". > > > > > > Arudha padas WERE defined by Sage Parasara and not by me. The > meaning of the term chosen (arudha pada) itself gives a clue as to > what it is and how it should be used. Furthermore, several results > were given by Parasara and others and they give a clue as to what > arudha padas show. I have a coherent understanding of what houses > show vs what their arudha padas show, based on what Parasara and > other taught. I am happy with my understanding. > > > > > > If you give any convincing logic against my understanding, I > will consider your views. Until then, you just come across as a > highly opinionated person who pronounces strong judgments without > giving any convincing logic. I have the option of either leaving all > my previous studies and experiments and following you or sticking to > my ground. I choose the latter. > > > > > > <<CH: Here you have nothing to say as you have placed marriage > in Venus_Sun_Rahu. Now with the ayanamsa I have given the 7th house > event is coming in Surya_Rahu as death of wife - afflicted > Navamsa_Lagna_LORD and 6th lord. You are justifying Guru without > thinking that why such an afflicted 6th lord Sun and Rahu did not > cause the tragedy? This is what the wrong ayanamsa has been doing > always - good planets were made sinners and then theories were > created.>> > > > > > > NR: What do you mean I have nothing to say. I had something to > say and said it: "Jupiter is the 8th lord in 7th, i.e. a maraka, in > navamsa. Saturn, OTOH, is the 7th lord and protects wife. It is > Jupiter can harm and end the marriage." > > > > > > The 8th lord in 7th is a maraka (killer). In navamsa, he kills > the marriage. In dasamsa, he kills career. In D-24, he kills > education. > > > > > > Sun and Rahu, OTOH, are the 1st and 7th lords together. I don't > see them killing marriage, but see them giving marriage. > > > > > > Regarding "wrong ayanamsa" and "theories" etc, I can say the > same thing about your views. If we have to debate productively about > a disagreement as two intelligent people, we have to give the > benefit of doubt and respect to the other! > > > > > > To you, your logic is simple and mine is convoluted. To me, it's > the other way around. To me, 9th and 12th lords give foreign travel > and not the lagna lord in 5th. You say that I am creating theories, > but it seems to me like YOU are creating theories to justify the > ayanamsa that you created. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > - > > > chandra hari > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao > > > Monday, November 21, 2005 8:35 AM > > > Re: Tagore comments ... > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > My comments are given below in blue. > > > > > > > > > Dear Chandra Hari, > > > > > > I will continue to communicate wi! th you on other matters > privately. But I will cc this one mail to the lists, as the list may > be interested in this too. I hope you don't mind. > > > > > > I will explain the events using the tenets of astrology that *I* > know, without stretching things and without being intellectually > dishonest. > > > > > > 1. Voyage: Jupiter is the lagna lord in the 5th house. I > absolutely cannot explain Jupiter guiving foreign travel. Saturn is > the 12th lord aspecting 12th house. He is in the 9th from Rahu > (karaka lagna). > > > > > > I see D-4 for residence and foreign travel. In D-4, Saturn is > the 12th lkord in 9th in watery Scorpio. > > > > > > Based on the astrology that I know and practice, Saturn ius a > clear winner. I am not inventing logic. The 9th house, 12th house, > Rahu (karaka) and D-4 being used for foreign travel are basic > factors I use always. > > > > > > To my mind Saturn is in fixed sign Leo which rules over Hills, > Dales and Fore! sts and as such could not have given the sea journey > which involved a month long stay over water in ship. You have not > answered to the discussion I have given. I have already discussed > the Saturn and clarified its demerits and Guru's features etc. I am > quoting below for ready reference: And please note that the date was > 20th September 1878 and the sub_sub_period of Ketu had begun on 19 > September 1878 and prevailed up to 9 October. > > > > > > § What was the purpose of his voyage? For studying - which is > more suitable, 10th lord in 5th or 12th lord in 6th in fixed sign? > > > § Dasa is of Ketu in the 4th and as such leaving home in the > dasa of a planet in Chara_jala rasi is not possible? See the Ketu's > Pratyantar dasa What you ha! ve to say about that? See what I have > written about Sani below - I have discussed Sani's merits as 12th > lord but the nature of the event does not award him the credit and > the right bhukti is Ketu dasa_Guru_Ketu. > > > > > > > > > 1. Voyage to Europe - 18th year - September 1878: Ketu (dasa) - > Guru (bhukti): Lahiri puts the event in Sani (bhukti) - Which is the > right choice, Guru or Sani for the voyage for studies, career, > across the seas? > > > § Sani of Simha takes one to the hills or to the sea? > > > § Guru of Kataka versus Sani of Simha - which one is more > appropriate for sea voyage? > > > § Event is going abroad, yes, Sani can cause the event by 12th > lordship - but contrast the nature of the event and Rasi-seelam. > Journe! y is for career and across the sea - life in sea - perhaps > it took weeks to reach UK. Which planet could have given such a life > in the ship, in the ocean? > > > § Guru is in exchange with Chandra - two watery signs influence > Guru and Mahayoga - can there be any other candidate to cause a > voyage across the sea? Just think over, I have no assertions. > > > § If suppose we take Sani as causing this voyage, another query > comes - Why the Guru bhukti failed to cause any development in his > career des! pite being 10th lord exalted in 5th in exchange with > Chandra? > > > § Sanjay says, it is improper to travel during Guru, Tagore was > in ship - in a moving Home in the ocean. Separation from home is > well explained by Dasa lord Ketu in the 4th. > > > § Raman's ayanamsa - no comments. Sukra-Sukra, in astrology > anything can be justified by inventing logic because a great > majority has no scientific thinking and! Upasana. > > > > > > See, Sri BV Raman's ayanamsa and astrology. His followers will > also ! explain the event. > > > > > > 2.. Venus is karaka in own navamsa, true. But Sun is the lagna > lord joining 7th lord Rahu in navamsa. Definitely, Venus-Sun-Rahu > pratyantardasa is a good candidate. Yes, Venus-Venus could have > given it too. But being karaka isn't enough. The 1st and 7th houses > of navamsa are as important as karaka. > > > > > > You are telling that Sukra_Sukra wa! s not appropriate for > marriage and Sukra _ Surya was better. You are undermining 'karaka' > and attaching importance here to Navamsa 1st and 7th. Which Navamsa - > a Navamsa centered over the 6th house and whose Lagna_lord is in > the company of Rahu? 6th house causes or denies marriage? > > > > > > Again you have not addressed the discussion I have given. What > you say I have already discussed in reply to Sanjay Rath's analysis. > > > > > > > > > 2. Marriage 9 December 1883: Sukra (d) - Sukra (b): > Kalatrakaraka and own varga in Navamsa are the only factors, I can > point out. If Surya could cause marriage by virtue of association > with Sukra and Budha by partaking their qualities and duties, why > didn't Sukra cause marriage in his own bhukti? We must apply logic > fully to churn out the truth. ! > > > § Surya could have caused marriage, had there been failure by > Sukra - not by virtue of association but because he is lord of > Navamsa-Lagna. Of course, affliction of Surya by Rahu was an > affliction over his marital life. > > > § We must note that the Kalatrakaraka is in own varga > in Navamsa and thus favorable to cause marriage. > > > § Imagine a situation of 1881 - when an astrologer could have > predicted Tagore's marriage - in Sukra-Sukra that is unfolding or > could anyone have said: Sukra cannot cause marriage in his bhukti > and Surya, the 6th Lord shall cause marriage? > > > § If Raman's Venus-Moon is correct, what is Raman's explanation > for Venus and Sun not causing marriage in their bhuktis? Raman > needed s! uch things as stellar influence to justify his ayanamsa. > What for is then Rasi and Vargas? Stellar lordship is above Rasi and > Varga? Raman's ayanamsa can be justified only with Raman's > astrology. > > > > > > ! > > > 3.. Get the correct date and also tell me if she was the first > child or second child, i.e. if there was an abortion first. Then I > will look at it. > > > > > > See my discussion again. Have you replied that? Date, you can > also try to get it and that is required for you to prove your > ayanamsa. For me that is not required. 5th September 1885 to 7th May > 1887 was Moon's period. > > > > > > When BVR ayanamsa is justifying Tagore's life, there is no > surprise at all in finding some correlations with Lahiri. Instead of > justification are we able to learn something from the discussion we > are making? Are we able to realize our mindset that attempts to > explain everything by inventing logics? > > > > > > 3. 1886 - His daughter Madhuri Lata was born in Sukra-Chandra > (b): Whole of 1886 Chandra bhukti prevailed. With Raman marriage in > Moon and Child in Rahu - and the chart has the exchange of first > lord Guru and 5th lord Chandra? > > > a.. Sanjay has to hope for the event before June 1886 to place > the birth of daughter in Venus-Moon? Justifies Mars too. Good. > > > b.. But while justifying Mars, should we not think as to why > Chandra did not give him a daughter during its bhukti despite being > lord of 5th in exchange with Guru? Unless, we answer this part, the > predictive logic cannot be complete. > > > So all the three ayanamsas may be explaining child birth but > Lahiri & Raman cannot explain as to why Chandra did not give him a > child during its bhukti or why ! Sukra did not cause marriage to > Tagore in Sukra bhukti. Only an integrated evaluation can lead us to > the truth > > > > > > 4. The 5th house is abilities and scholarship. While houses show > intangible aspects of matters, their arudha padas show the tangible > manifestation. Bhava means a a concept or thought or a meaning. > Arudha means raised. Pada means a symbol or a word. Padas are to > bhavas what words/symbols are to meanings/concepts. Meanings, > thoughts and concepts that one has in one's mind are intangible to > others, while words used to express them are tangible to others.! > > > > > > In my approach, I always see tangible aspects of various matters > from arudha padas. While the 4th house shows one's happiness from > vehicle (intangible), the arudha pada of 4th house shows vehicle > itself (a tangible article). While the 5th house may show one's > abilities and scholarship, arudha pada of 5th house may show > tanginle articles reflecting on it, such as awards, prizes, > certificates etc. > > > > > > Similarly, Shanti Niketan is a tangible thing. I'll see it from > the arudha pada of 5th house in dasamsa chart. Of course, I don't > buy your Rx10 and will use the standard Parasari dasamsa which I > have used in hundreds of charts to make predictions. > > > > > > In D-10, A5 (arudha pada of 5th house) is in Leo. The 3rd lord > (initiative) Rahu is in it and its lord is Sun, who is in lagna. No > wonder, Sun-Rahu antardasa gave rise to Shanti Niketan. > > > > > > I don't think that the astrology that you speak here is that > ancient wisdom of the Sages. You are speaking of Arudha of 5th house > etc in D10 - as a good friend my advice is to come out of this > illusion. Creation of these kinds of techniques and propagation of > the same will make astrology a laughing stock! in the eyes of modern > critical/scientific minds. I cannot reply to this kind of illusive > astrology - please refer to the statistical proof I have given > against the double transit theory of Sri KN Rao and I hope you will > be able to understand the fallacy of postmortem analysis with > multiple significators. > > > > > > 4.. Jupiter is the 8th lord in 7th, i.e. a maraka, in navamsa. > Saturn, OTOH, is the 7th lord and protects wife. It is Jupiter can > harm and end the marriage. > > > > > > Here you have nothing to say as you have placed marriage in > Venus_Sun_Rahu. Now with the ayanamsa I have given the 7th house > event is coming in Surya_Rahu as death of wife - afflicted > Navamsa_Lagna_LORD and 6th lord. You are justifying Guru without > thinking that why such an afflicted 6th lord Sun and Rahu did not > cause the tragedy? This is what the wrong ayanamsa has been doing > always - good planets were made sinners and then theories were > created. > > > > > > Death of Wife - Mrinalini Devi on 23.11.1902: Raman places the > event in Sun-Sat. Lahiri has the tragic event in Surya-Guru (b): How > can this be explained? > > > § Lahiri - How can Surya (d) - Guru (b) kill the wife? > > > § Sun - Rahu (b) - I will put the blame on the affliction by > Rahu on Navamsa-Lagnapati. Lagna had navamsa in 6th with the lord > afflicted by Rahu - this is a very correct principle - afflicted > lord of navamsa Lagna affects marital life. > > > § Rahu's lordship, I don't use. With my experience of the > tradition, I am not aware of a logic like Rahu is 7th lord or > similar. > > > > > > 6-7. I'll leave for now. Want to hurry up and sleep. You don't > seem to have the exact dates too. > > > > > > 8. I agree Mercury AD is better. But the AD change happened in > Sept 1913. With a little difference in birthtime, the event can move > to Mercury AD even with Lahiri ayanamsa. So let us skip this border > case. > > > > > > 9. We use D-24 for learning matters. In D-24, the 2nd house is > occupied by Moon and owned by Ketu. Moon-Ketu can give an advanced > degree. > > > > > > 10. When using Vimsottari dasa as a maraka dasa (as opposed to > an ayurdasa), I did not get perf! ect results by sticking to normal > Janma Vimsottari dasa. In some charts, Kshema Vimsottari dasa or > Adhana Vimsottari dasa work better. In Tagore's case, there are more > planets in quadrants from Kshema nakshatra (Krittika) than from > Janma nakshatra (Revati). As per this variation, his death occurred > in Mercury-Venus-Mercury pratyantardasa. Mercury is the 7th lord and > Venus is the 7th lord and both occupy the 2nd house. Based on > classic Parasari principles, they are both perfect marakas! > > > > > > If you try a number of Dasas somewhere you will find > correlation. Krishnamurthy Paddhati, Kalachakra dasa in various > interpretations and Paramayu shishtam all h! ave received horoscopic > substantiation. For those who use right ayanamsa such new techniques > are not required. Vimsottari is good enough, marakatva rules are > sufficient and so on. With wrong ayanamsa you need wrong techniques > like the same wrong ayanamsa. > > > > > > "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" pvr@c... wrote: > > > Dear Chandra Hari, > > > > > > I will continue to communicate with you on other matters > privately. But I will cc this one mail to the lists, as the list may > be interested in this too. I hope you don't mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------- > ------------- > > > FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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