Ritvik Misconception

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Yes, you may be right there, but I am 100% sure about my previous post inwhich HH Radha Govinda Swami was told by Srila Prabhupada that to initiate (diksa). I heard this when he was giving lecture.

Someone's own statement that they were told something isn't a valid evidence in their own defense, especially when it isn't documented anywhere. I have heard this same claim from multiple gurus. It may or may not be true, but it isn't a valid evidence for obvious reasons.

[aashish108]

 

Someone's own statement that they were told something isn't a valid evidence in their own defense, especially when it isn't documented anywhere. I have heard this same claim by multiple people. It may or may not be true, but it isn't a valid evidence for obvious reasons.

 

true, I guess if devotees would want to get initiation from an "authorised" person (if people don't know who to trust Rtviks or any other ISKCON gurus or anything else) can themselves follow up this claim! I think that both parties (Rtviks & advocates of ISKCON Guru system) can find solace in this if it is true.....

[aashish108]

 

I have heard this same claim from multiple gurus [regarding Prabhupada allowing them to give out Diksa]. It may or may not be true....

 

Damn! If only it were in the Vedabase and fully documented, then maybe things would be different..............

[theist]

 

Damn! If only it were in the Vedabase and fully documented, then maybe things would be different..............

 

The vedabase can be manipulated just as Prabhupada's books can. There must be a deeper way of knowing and confirmation available to us, don't you think?

[aashish108]

 

The vedabase can be manipulated just as Prabhupada's books can. There must be a deeper way of knowing and confirmation available to us, don't you think?

 

I agree, but why can't the Ritviks try that with the advanced ISKCON Gurus!?? It would save many pages of arguments and counter arguments etc etc

[theist]

 

I agree, but why can't the Ritviks try that with the advanced ISKCON Gurus!?? It would save many pages of arguments and counter arguments etc etc

 

Sorry. Not sure of your question exactly. What qualifies the "Ritviks" or "advanced ISKCON gurus" to sort it all out? They see the exact same evidence and come to different conclusions. And frankly why should anyone trust either their motives or their understanding?

 

Time is short for us all as individuals. This controversy has drug on for years and it will go on for years more. For me at least I find the best thing is to ignore it. At any moment I will forced out of my body, ready or not, and whatever state my consciousness is in will determine my future. I am afraid to face death in my current state of consciousness. I don't want to die in my present situation. So how can this controversy help me out of my present dilemna? I see no way. Therefore it is irrelevant to me.

 

Of course to be pleasing to Guru and Krsna we must want to see these present conflicts resolved and the truth established for the continuation of this flow of Divine Knowledge. But I don't see that coming by GBC resolution or Ritvik consensus. I believe both positions to be in error.

 

I feel that the best thing for us may be to ignore their squabbles and pray to the Lord in the heart to please give us the ears to hear the message that Srila Prabhupada came to impart to us. That includes leading us to the teachings of Srila Prabhupada's students and disciples that have correctly understood his message. We always can find help and wisdom by hearing from those more experienced and advanced and they do exist. I just find too much confusion from the forementioned groups. I already have plenty of my own confusion so why seek more? I need clarity.

 

At every stage of our search for Godhead we must pray to the Lord to be led correctly by Him personally.

[Guest guest]

 

Someone's own statement that they were told something isn't a valid evidence in their own defense, especially when it isn't documented anywhere. I have heard this same claim from multiple gurus. It may or may not be true, but it isn't a valid evidence for obvious reasons.

 

Very good point. Thank you, Prabhu. One thing that I DID hear directly from Tribhuvanatha's lips a number of times was the following: "Give 'em enough rope and they'll hang themselves." But still, it's not my position to say just who he was talking about at the time. After all he's not here to defend himself or his statements. So as you say, it must be documented. Very important because as time goes by, any damn thing can be said to be said by anyone. Then we're in real trouble.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Regarding the claim by Radha Govinda Maharaja, we can look at it from a statistical view to see what are the probabilities it occured (though this won't really prove it one way or another).

 

First lets analyse these points:

 

1) At what year did Radha Govinda Maharaja become a leader in ISKCON (pre Prabhupada samadhi or post-samadhi)

 

2) At what year did Radha Govinda Maharaja become a sannyasi

(pre Prabhupada samadhi or post-samadhi)

 

3) How many letters did Prabhupada write to him (i.e. establishing that there was regular communication between Prabhupada and him)

 

4) How many times is he talking with Prabhupada in conversations in the Vedabase (same as point 3).

 

I really don't know him so can't answer, but my quick look shows that the answers appear to be (I may be wrong here) 1) post, 2) post, 3) 0 4) 0.

 

Again I could be wrong, as I don't know who he is in detail. But if the answers are as I think, then I would say there is little chance at all that such a secret undocumented conversation took place. Add to this the fact that Prabhupada oddly didn't include his name in any of the discussions about the Ritviks who would represent him while he was sick. Thus I would get the impression that he only came to priominence post-samadhi and had little contact with Prabhupada while he was present.

 

Again I may be wrong, but these are just my views based on common statistics, which could always be inaccurate (but likely aren't).

 

The most compelling evidence against this is Prabhupada's own words, where he writes in a letter "So many people are saying Prabhupada said, but unless you see it in writing from Me do not believe these." So when in doubt of an undocumented secret conversation, do not believe it as evidence.

[Guest guest]

 

Very good point. Thank you, Prabhu. One thing that I DID hear directly from Tribhuvanatha's lips a number of times was the following: "Give 'em enough rope and they'll hang themselves." But still, it's not my position to say just who he was talking about at the time. After all he's not here to defend himself or his statements. So as you say, it must be documented. Very important because as time goes by, any damn thing can be said to be said by anyone. Then we're in real trouble.

 

Another point that I learned frorm Tribuvanatha Prabhu is that he sometimes said differenet things to different people according to time, place and cicumstance. Some would say that was being dupicitious, but actually, he was just being careful to nurture a person's bhakti and was aware that some people could hear some things and others were completely new and couldn't handle hearing certain things at all, depending on their personal situations, level of advancement, and who they associated with. Discretion is the better part of valor. His goal was to alway encourage the seed of bhakti in everyone's heart - so I'd be careful in taking his statements out of context. Everything has its place and context, so please keep that in mind when quoting others. Thanks, and hope that makes sense.

[Kulapavana]

Srila Prabhupada:

When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru parampara.

 

Indian man:

Did it...

 

Srila Prabhupada:

Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.

(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)

[theist]

 

in what way this order to become guru happened in case of Srila Prabhupada? was it a letter? conversation? if so, is there a record of it? or was it internal?

 

if it was internal, than SP can certainly give such an order to his disciples.

 

"if it was internal, than SP can certainly give such an order to his disciples"

 

I believe this to be the case and so very very important to this whole discussion.

[Guest guest]

 

Have you ever preached about Krsna Consciousness by distributing Books, as Srila Prabhupada insisted time and time again rather than distributing political stuff like Back to Prabhupada?

 

Perhaps you should remind the Iskcon gurus that THEY should be distributing Srila Prabhupada's books, not set up their OWN competing book ministries. Judging by the massive positive feedback, BTP really is bringing people BACK to Prabhupada - and HIS books.

[Guest guest]

 

Well I heard something completely different from Tribhuvanatha Prabhu on this issue, so unless it's in writing, I don't think that we should quote him (or anyone) like this. Anyone can say "so-and-so" said this or that.

 

CORRECT.

 

"Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said."

(Letter to: Omkara -- Vrindaban 2 September, 1975)

 

"...just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: "Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that."

(Letter to: Krsnadasa -- Vrindaban 7 November, 1972)

 

Prabhupada: Yes, preaching, preaching, you will become perfect preacher. Preach only what you have heard from Krsna and guru, that's all. Don't add and subtract. Then you are secure. And if you add some concoction just like somebody says that "I may do whatever I like independently. If I chant, then everything is all right," this is nonsense addition. It is not the fact. That is the danger. Some inexperienced man, he introduces some concoction. Sometimes they say, "Prabhupada said it." More misleading. Yes.

(Morning Walk -- February 3, 1975, Hawaii)

 

 

Prabhupada: So, when you change, then the authority is lost. Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say, "Prabhupada said." (laughter) They are doing that. We know that. It is deteriorated like that. Therefore Krsna said, sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastah kaunteya: "And in due course of time, this yoga was lost. Therefore I am repeating the same thing, old philosophy to you." So it requires like that.

(Room Conversation with Carol Cameron -- May 9, 1975, Perth)

 

 

The only thing we have in writing from Srila Prabhupada re initiations in ISKCON for after his departure is the July 9th letter, as well as his Last Will and Testament. In other words, RITVIK is what SP ordered in WRITING. The rest is up to us to obey or not.

[Kulapavana]

'Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy.'

(Letter to Tusta Krsna, 2 Dec 75)

 

what is so hard to understand, you ritviks?

[Kulapavana]

 

"if it was internal, than SP can certainly give such an order to his disciples"

 

I believe this to be the case and so very very important to this whole discussion.

 

I agree. It WAS internal

[aashish108]

There is no point in arguing against the Rtviks, as they have attained the stage of Nistha - steadiness in their philosophy!

[Guest guest]

Don't you ritviks have any intelligence at all? The GBC publish their own books, so you want to focus all your energies in publishing nonsense like back to Prabhupada to counter it?

 

The guest asked a good question ... why can't you sell Prabhupada books and distribute Krishna Consciuosness to the world instead of using all your energy and resources to publish useless literature and blaspheme other Vaisnavas?

 

 

Perhaps you should remind the Iskcon gurus that THEY should be distributing Srila Prabhupada's books, not set up their OWN competing book ministries. Judging by the massive positive feedback, BTP really is bringing people BACK to Prabhupada - and HIS books.

[theist]

In fairness I think the ritviks have some very good points like on the continued presence of Srila Prabhupada. I disagree with their denial of Srila Prabhupada's disciples to take their own disciples when ordered by Guru. They seem to accept that Srila Prabhupada can initiate still but deny that he can also order his disciple to be Guru. They point to the July 9th letter as his last word on the issue. That makes no sense.

 

Also there is a young gentlemen here in Berkeley that I have run into over the last couple of years. He is ritvik and always selling Srila Prabhupada's books. I have never heard him criticize anyone.

 

Wholesale condemnation is wrong and dangerous. Same with Iskcon or anyone of us for that matter.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

The guest asked a good question ... why can't you sell Prabhupada books and distribute Krishna Consciuosness to the world instead of using all your energy and resources to publish useless literature and blaspheme other Vaisnavas?

 

As has been pointed out previously in this thread, the Bangalore ISKCON temple (Ritvik) distributes 1/3 of all ISKCON books in the world. That means if you take all the 200 or so temples together and total all of their book distribution scores, the ISKCON Bangalore temple accounts for 1/3 of the entire worldwide book distribution (these figures were from 2001-2002, as I haven't seen a recent report, but it is likely the same). Again this shows that these accusations are just sentimental, not based on any research or fact.

[bija]

quote jndasa: As has been pointed out previously in this thread, the Bangalore ISKCON temple (Ritvik) distributes 1/3 of all ISKCON books in the world. That means if you take all the 200 or so temples together and total all of their book distribution scores, the ISKCON Bangalore temple accounts for 1/3 of the entire worldwide book distribution (these figures were from 2001-2002, as I haven't seen a recent report, but it is likely the same). Again this shows that these accusations are just sentimental, not based on any research or fact.

This is a huge amount of books considering the numbers. What do you think are some reasons for this? Is it that they have an ignited fervor for Srila Prabhupada?

[Guest guest]

Are 1/3 of all ritviks also in the Bangalore temple? You could have a 1000 ritviks in the world but only 100 in the Bangalore temple. What are the rest doing? It's obvious that a large temple such as the one in Bangalore would sell many books.

 

As long as some group continues to publish nonsense like Back to Prabhupada, they don't have any credibility. Read that magazine and then read Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's views on blasphemy of Vaisnava devotees of the Lord.

 

 

As has been pointed out previously in this thread, the Bangalore ISKCON temple (Ritvik) distributes 1/3 of all ISKCON books in the world. That means if you take all the 200 or so temples together and total all of their book distribution scores, the ISKCON Bangalore temple accounts for 1/3 of the entire worldwide book distribution (these figures were from 2001-2002, as I haven't seen a recent report, but it is likely the same). Again this shows that these accusations are just sentimental, not based on any research or fact.

[Guest guest]

Hey, this is a free world and they can do what they 'think' is right! Doesn't make them right though. Please read the post directly above this one. There is no excuse for the tremendous aparadha that these fools commit.

 

 

In fairness I think the ritviks have some very good points like on the continued presence of Srila Prabhupada. I disagree with their denial of Srila Prabhupada's disciples to take their own disciples when ordered by Guru. They seem to accept that Srila Prabhupada can initiate still but deny that he can also order his disciple to be Guru. They point to the July 9th letter as his last word on the issue. That makes no sense.

 

Also there is a young gentlemen here in Berkeley that I have run into over the last couple of years. He is ritvik and always selling Srila Prabhupada's books. I have never heard him criticize anyone.

 

Wholesale condemnation is wrong and dangerous. Same with Iskcon or anyone of us for that matter.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

This is a huge amount of books considering the numbers. What do you think are some reasons for this? Is it that they have an ignited fervor for Srila Prabhupada?

 

Their fervor for Srila Prabhupada is likely one of the contributing factors. In addition to that, it is the best managed temple in ISKCON. Everything is very intelligently laid out and managed perfectly. And they have come up with very innovative ways of distributing books, such as a children's Krishna book course, where 30,000-50,000 school children at a time sign up for a course on Lord Krishna's pastimes, in which the text book is Prabhupada's Krishna book. These children actually pay to join this course, and the payment covers the cost of the text book, which they seriously study and then attend an exam. Like this they have come up with many very intelligent methods of preaching and distributing books.

 

In the past, blind people called anyone who disagreed with the zonal acharya system as offenders. Perhaps if the zonal acharya system had been exposed at that time a lot of the damage would not have been done. Everyone should have their freedom of belief, and if some people don't consider Swami X as a pure devotee, that is their God given right. Call them offenders or whatever makes you happy, but time has so far proven a lot of the critics correct.

[Kulapavana]

 

Their fervor for Srila Prabhupada is likely one of the contributing factors. In addition to that, it is the best managed temple in ISKCON.

 

yes, we may disagree on some points of philosophy but we should ALWAYS respect and honor devotees for their service to the mission of Srila Prabhupada. however, that principle cuts both ways.

[Govardhan Giri Dasa]

This argument is like the chicken and the egg story. We can argue till we leave our bodies, so come one people.....................

 

stop fighting and start chanting.....