Ritvik Misconception

[theist]

yes, we may disagree on some points of philosophy but we should ALWAYS respect and honor devotees for their service to the mission of Srila Prabhupada. however, that principle cuts both ways.

[Guest guest]

 

Don't you ritviks have any intelligence at all? The GBC publish their own books, so you want to focus all your energies in publishing nonsense like back to Prabhupada to counter it?

 

The guest asked a good question ... why can't you sell Prabhupada books and distribute Krishna Consciuosness to the world instead of using all your energy and resources to publish useless literature and blaspheme other Vaisnavas?

 

Can you give any examples of "nonsense" in Back to Prabhupada magazine?

Also the same for your blasphemy accusation.

[Guest guest]

 

Hey, this is a free world and they can do what they 'think' is right! Doesn't make them right though. Please read the post directly above this one. There is no excuse for the tremendous aparadha that these fools commit.

 

Please supply examples to prove your point.

[Guest guest]

 

In fairness I think the ritviks have some very good points like on the continued presence of Srila Prabhupada. I disagree with their denial of Srila Prabhupada's disciples to take their own disciples when ordered by Guru.

Can you provide a quote to substantiate your claim, as above?

 

They seem to accept that Srila Prabhupada can initiate still but deny that he can also order his disciple to be Guru.

Again a slight misrepresentation here, what we deny is that the order has been given. NOT that the order can be given.

 

 

They point to the July 9th letter as his last word on the issue. That makes no sense.

Well, can you provide any signed, legal documentation for the post-July 9th 1977 era? If not then this IS the last word on the issue, so far.

 

Also there is a young gentlemen here in Berkeley that I have run into over the last couple of years. He is ritvik and always selling Srila Prabhupada's books. I have never heard him criticize anyone.

 

What is wrong with criticism - if it is the truth? Surely the truth is rightousness no matter what form it takes.

[theist]

"Signed legal document" roflmao

 

Where was Srila Prabhupada's signed legal document from Bhaktisiddhanta?

[aashish108]

I have been reading A Trancendental Diary, and this is what Srila Prabhupada says regarding becomming Gurus etc:

 

 

Prabhupäda surprised me when I entered his room at about 11 a.m. this morning to prepare for his massage. For almost half an hour he preached to me, explaining that he wants all his disciples to become gurus. Each of us is to make thousands of disciples just as he has and in this way spread Krsna consciousness all over the world.

He didn't seem to be speaking in general terms either, but directly to me. He seemed very enlivened at the prospect of spreading Krsna consciousness in this way.

In the evening, when the GBC men filed into his room to make their report about their day's meeting, he brought up the same topic, before discussing their resolutions. He asked me to explain to everyone what he had said earlier. But when I hesitated, he did it himself, repeating in brief this principle of becoming guru.

He told them that just as he had made thousands of disciples he wants each one of them to make ten thousand each. He encouraged them to become increasingly more qualified and rise to the position of being spiritual masters. He stressed that this can be done only if they maintain spiritual strength by strictly following the four regulative principles and chanting the prescribed number of rounds.

Source: A Trancendental Diary Vol 1, TD 1-9: Sri Dhama Mayapur, March 7th 1976, by Hari Sauri dasa

 

 

He said that each of us has to become a guru and accept many disciples. But as a matter of etiquette, one should wait until his own spiritual master has departed before doing so.

After lunch, I questioned him further. He told me that having a following is not such a serious offense. But if someone thinks that he is qualified, and accepts disciples in the presence of his own spiritual master, that in itself would be his disqualification.

Replying to my question whether one has to be a pure devotee to make disciples, he said that one has to be strictly following the principles. That is the requirement. Then he can be considered to be on a pure platform.

 

Source: A Trancendental Diary Vol 1, TD 1-9: Sri Dhama Mayapur, March 8th 1976, by Hari Sauri dasa

 

I think that this says everything, doesn't it.

[vijay]

 

Can you give any examples of "nonsense" in Back to Prabhupada magazine?

Also the same for your blasphemy accusation.

 

I read the last BTP where it took an out of context quote from indradyumna maharajs travelling preacher diary where he went to moscow to raise some funds, he found that because of some reason there were not many devotees that came to greet him (i think becasue of the economic boom in russia). So then he thought its going to be very difficult to raise any funds.

 

What BTP done was accused him of wanting fame as not many devotees came to see him. They also accused him of just being interested in money. Forgetting to mention why he was trying to raise money (His festival tours in Poland)

 

If this isnt blatant out of context nonsense spinning then i dont know what is. There was a whole page dedicated to a few out of context lines from the diary.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Vijay. Saved me the trouble of posting some of it.

 

If the objects of criticism/blasphemy in the BTP magazines weren't Vaisnavas, I would actually enjoy reading some of it. Quite funny, if you ask me!

 

 

I read the last BTP where it took an out of context quote from indradyumna maharajs travelling preacher diary where he went to moscow to raise some funds, he found that because of some reason there were not many devotees that came to greet him (i think becasue of the economic boom in russia). So then he thought its going to be very difficult to raise any funds.

 

What BTP done was accused him of wanting fame as not many devotees came to see him. They also accused him of just being interested in money. Forgetting to mention why he was trying to raise money (His festival tours in Poland)

 

If this isnt blatant out of context nonsense spinning then i dont know what is. There was a whole page dedicated to a few out of context lines from the diary.

[aashish108]

 

BTP magazines

 

I think that there is some misunderstanding over here. Actually BTP means Back To Prajalpa and NOT Back To Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

 

I think that there is some misunderstanding over here. Actually BTP means Back To Prajalpa and NOT Back To Prabhupada

 

Please always remember one thing, you cant blame Prabhupanugas for 30 fallen so called "gurus", "spiritual masters", "mahabhagavats", "acaryas".

It were those who forced what you now call Vaishnava splinter groups to grow and grow. Presently there're more devotees who felt of having to leave ISKCON against their own will, then there're devotees within ISKCON.

If the present policy of becoming tolerant to accept more and more fallen "gurus", then even the karmis will speak out, "please, stay in India with that kind of religion, we're entertained already with the presentation of the Catholic church's falldowns - but thanks so much Krishnas for your food and good-bye. Oh, no, wait we have some welfare activities for you, why you dont start to do something useful, after all your fallen masters chanted all day and where did they end up?"

 

Yes, aashish108, where did those end up? Arent 30 of those not enough?

Or did it already became some sort of entertainment to read about another fallen "pure, as good as god acarya"?

[aashish108]

 

Please always remember one thing, you cant blame Prabhupanugas for 30 fallen so called "gurus", "spiritual masters", "mahabhagavats", "acaryas".

It were those who forced what you now call Vaishnava splinter groups to grow and grow. Presently there're more devotees who felt of having to leave ISKCON against their own will, then there're devotees within ISKCON.

If the present policy of becoming tolerant to accept more and more fallen "gurus", then even the karmis will speak out, "please, stay in India with that kind of religion, we're entertained already with the presentation of the Catholic church's falldowns - but thanks so much Krishnas for your food and good-bye. Oh, no, wait we have some welfare activities for you, why you dont start to do something useful, after all your fallen masters chanted all day and where did they end up?"

 

Yes, aashish108, where did those end up? Arent 30 of those not enough?

Or did it already became some sort of entertainment to read about another fallen "pure, as good as god acarya"?

Yes, well BTP still stands for Back To Prajalpa! Regarding your argument on the 30 fallen gurus, here is a nice article, its long but it does help us clear up the Water from the Milk and I think that this could be a lovely solution in the end of all this muddle:

 

The Fighting is Killing Us, Not the Diversity BY: VISHOKA DASA

May 23, USA (SUN) — Some devotees think it’s all black and white; some think there’s some gray area in between. Just like some devotees say that there are corrupt leaders in ISKCON, therefore everyone in ISKCON is corrupt. Some teach this sort of logic in school, they say, “Socrates and Shakespeare, and all men, great and small have died in the past, and so they are mortal, therefore all men are mortal.” Some say that this is invalid logic, because we must experience the death of every man to say “all men are mortal.” But we know from general experience, that all men are mortal.

We apply this logic to ISKCONites and the ritviks. Some say “these ritviks are offensive to ISKCON devotees and foul mouthed and obnoxious, so on, therefore all ritviks are offensive and foul mouthed.” On the other hand, some say “that so and so gurus are bogus and fallen, and so and so temple presidents are corrupt, therefore all gurus and all devotees in ISKCON are bogus and corrupt.”

Here we see both sides making sweeping judgments on the other side, saying all members of that side are bad people, so on. This is why we find bigotry and hatred and acts of violence perpetrated from both sides, thus a bitter war. On the other hand, there are devotees who say it’s not all black and white, there’s a gray area, which gives some hope to the situation. The logic of “all men are mortal” does not apply in our case, because not all devotees are bad just because a few are bad. Or, they should not be automatically judged as corrupt, because of their choice of aligning with a certain sector.

Some cannot believe that we can have “unity in diversity” and live together in Srila Prabhupada’s house. I've said before that we should allow devotees to make their own choice of which sector they want, and we can all still live in Srila Prabhupada’s house peacefully, and push on the preaching.

Some say this is impossible. Some may say that we cannot allow devotees to choose on this issue, because it’s all black and white, one sector is wrong, and the other is right. But I'm not proposing what we should do, I'm describing what is already going on. I'm not saying who is right and wrong, I'm talking about the reality of what is already happening. Devotees all over the world are already making their own choice, and they still feel that they are in Srila Prabhupada’s movement, serving Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krishna.

Some may say, ok, they are making their own choice, but it’s only because they have not understood both sides of the argument. This is true, sometimes we see a conversion of faith from one sector to another, when the person properly researches the debate. But often we see that many devotees stick to their choice, no matter how many arguments are put forth. Therefore we have a multiple-choice program going on here, within the same institution. This is the reality, and therefore it is futile and anti-productive to continue to try to force devotees into one single sector. The fight is killing us, not the diversity.

Some leaders might consider that it would be more beneficial to Srila Prabhupada’s movement, if we just allowed all of Srila Prabhupada’s older disciples to come together, chant together and have sadhu sanga, go out and preach together, do harinama together, despite this sector issue, and this would change the course of the movement. Instead of wasting our energy and money in fighting a futile war, we should rally the troops and combine our resources and fight the real war, the war against maya, and try to save the conditioned souls.

Instead of an endless nasty debate and trying to force it on everyone, and make propaganda, it is better to allow the natural flow of education and civil discussion on the issue, and allow individual choice, which they are doing already. The leaders should concede that freedom of choice is there already, nothing can change that. Trying to force a single agenda is futile, and “forcing the issue” is the real factor which is stagnating the movement of Srila Prabhupada, not the reality of the diversity of different sectors.

Getting to the gray area, not all Prabhupada sectors are the same, they don't all agree with each other, but still they share the main principle, that Srila Prabhupada is the main source of spiritual sustenance to all devotees within his movement, or to those who choose to accept him as their main guru.

We have the many facets of the ritvik sectors, like the HKS and IRM and Kapindra Maharaga’s sector, and various other un-named independent sectors. Then we have the “officiating acharya” sector, which is similar to the Ramanuja model proposed by some devotees, in which Srila Prabhupada is the udharika guru, or the savior guru, and other gurus are the upakarika gurus, or helper gurus, and if they fall down, still the new disciple is fully protected by Srila Prabhupada as the main guru.

They are “disciple of the disciple,” and even I was “disciple of a disciple” being a disciple of Jayananda, and still Srila Prabhupada was my diksa guru, my main guru, my udharika guru. I had my upakarika guru in Jayananda, and my udharika guru in Srila Prabhupada. It worked for me, so I think it could still work for others.

Then we have the Prominent Link sector, which is similar to this [i think] in saying that Srila Prabhupada is available for whoever sincerely wants to accept him as such, as the primary link to the parampara. The main crux of all these different sectors is the factor of a solid spiritual insurance policy plan, which gives the neophyte devotee an iron-clad spiritual security, that they feel security of being fully under the protection of a proven pure devotee of Lord Krishna, which is Srila Prabhupada.

And, we find this gray area within ISKCON as well. We know there are some gurus who secretly give ritvik initiation to new devotees, they give them the choice of accepting themselves or Srila Prabhupada as their main guru. Then we have some ISKCON gurus who sort of agree to the “officiating acharya” model, and consider themselves as “officiating acharyas.” Then there are some gurus who say that Srila Prabhupada is taking their disciples [and themselves] back to godhead. Then there are some gurus who claim to be the sole savior guru of their disciples. So, we see a great variety within Srila Prabhupada’s movement, on both sides of the fence.

The big problem with the ISKCON regime, is that they insist that all the above sectors are wrong, that the new student MUST take the sole shelter of a new “living” guru, and their entire spiritual life and salvation is solely and concomitantly dependant upon their choice of that sole guru, and he is their only life and soul and only ticket to Lord Krishna. This is where the problem is, that we see all these thousands of new students accepting this formula, and literally thousands of them getting the disappointment of a fallen guru, and then falling away themselves.

We are not saying that because 30 gurus were fallen, therefore all ISKCON gurus are fallen, we cannot be the judge of that, only Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krishna are the judge of that. Some say they are all fallen, but such blanket statements only perpetuates the hatred, and is not fair to all individuals. Some may be madhyma gurus, monitor gurus, so on. It is purely a personal matter between the guru and Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krishna. But, if the guru gets his feeling of power from the adulation of neophyte new disciples, and the rubber stamp of a committee, then he is in big trouble. The only stamp of approval is from Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krishna, and this is a personal thing, not a subject of public trial.

We can safely say there’s a trend of a certain percentage of gurus who fell in the past, therefore a certain percentage will continue to fall, which is sort of like saying that men were mortal in the past, and will continue to be mortal. Being that the case, we have to let all sectors play out, as trying to force a cessation of any particular sector is futile, as the fight is worse than the diversity.

So, in order to have the model of “unity in diversity” and allow choices, then we must allow the choice of selecting a guru and hoping he is a pure devotee, because this is already happening, as well as allowing the Srila Prabhupada centered sectors. I think it would be much better for Srila Prabhupada’s movement, if we just let this multiple choice go on, without fighting, because its already going on, and allow every individual to make a choice. And I’m sure that a great many will still make the “living guru” choice, as that is human nature.

If one is a bona-fide guru, then he is certainly empowered by Lord Krishna and there will automatically be many disciples. There should be no worry on this, either one is a guru or not a guru, and Lord Krishna will reciprocate in the degree of their authenticity.

Peace and unity of resources is infinitely more productive than a prolonged stagnation of fighting. Peace and unity could very well save the day, save ourselves and save the planet, whereas fighting the inevitable diversity isn't saving anyone.

Hare Krishna,

Your servant,

Vishoka dasa

[Guest guest]

 

Thanks Vijay. Saved me the trouble of posting some of it.

He didn't actually post any of it. He just posted HIS spin on what is in BTP.

 

 

If the objects of criticism/blasphemy in the BTP magazines weren't Vaisnavas, I would actually enjoy reading some of it. Quite funny, if you ask me!

What is wrong with criticism, if it is true? For example there is an ISKCON guru & swami in the Vaisnava news reports just now who is criticised for abusing children. Do you suggest that the critics (blasphemers?) shut up and let the abuser Vaisnava guru carry on?

[aashish108]

 

He didn't actually post any of it. He just posted HIS spin on what is in BTP.

 

 

You are good at that aren't you? Spining.

[Guest guest]

 

You are good at that aren't you? Spining.

 

Sorry, but can you explain that statement with some verifiable facts.

thanks